Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English
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This page is for verification of entries in any language for which there is no specialised RFV page according to this list:
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Overview: This page is for disputing the existence of terms or senses. It is for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion, usually by providing citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic or “sum of parts” should be posted to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion. Requests to confirm that a certain etymology is correct should go in the Etymology scriptorium, and requests to confirm pronunciation is correct should go in the Tea Room.
Adding a request: To add a request for verification (attestation), add the template {{rfv}} or {{rfv-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new section here. Those who would seek attestation after the term or sense is nominated will appreciate your doing at least a cursory check for such attestation before nominating it: Google Books is a good place to check, others are listed here (WT:SEA).
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- Assert that the term is in clearly widespread use. (If this assertion is not obviously correct, or is challenged by multiple editors, it will likely be ignored, necessitating the following step.)
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In any case, advise on this page that you have placed the citations on the entry page.
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March 2020
[edit]Dutch protologism. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:39, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is attested here and also in the subtitle of an article about Heleen van Royen (so NSFW) here. Perhaps someone could check Usenet? Should at least be tagged as rare if it passes.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)- It's mentioned here. I don't see anything on Usenet. - -sche (discuss) 16:20, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Also used as a title here, but whether that should qualify as a use is rather arguable. As an aside, it turns out that it was also the title of a column about car photos in the 70s.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Sounds like a "dictionary-only" word. Any takers? SemperBlotto (talk) 11:05, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- And is that really one word? This looks like a long descriptive phrase with all the whitespace deleted. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:09, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Don't forget that this is a polysynthetic language. It's not a long phrase, it's a compound of compounds, with affixes filling the role of particles instead of separately. Here's a page showing the morphology and related words. You can even hear it pronounced. Given Ojibwe's LDL status, that might even suffice. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:53, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz, my comment was actually inspired by my study of a different highly agglutinating polysynthetic language, Navajo, where we find things like chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí (“tank”, as in an armored fighting vehicle) -- a long descriptive phrase, literally parsing out to "the thing that's a car that crawls about and has a cannon and people sit on it". So when I see super long words like the one above, and then I see it broken down, I find myself wondering if this is really just a typography problem where someone decided to remove the whitespace. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 15:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- The key question is whether the University of Minnesota's webpage counts as durably archived (I'm on the fence here). Secondarily, they spell it with a bunch of hyphens separating morphemes, so if we do keep it, we probably ought to move it to match their spelling. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:08, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note that the UMN website has a shorter word, lacking the badagwiingweshigani component (see also badagwiingweshin) in the entry taken here from the Anishinaabemowin website. --Lambiam 11:16, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Don't forget that this is a polysynthetic language. It's not a long phrase, it's a compound of compounds, with affixes filling the role of particles instead of separately. Here's a page showing the morphology and related words. You can even hear it pronounced. Given Ojibwe's LDL status, that might even suffice. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:53, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
They may be putting the hyphens in solely as an aid to the reader, the way Russian dictionaries put accents on that aren't used in normal writing. There are other examples of this such as biinji-gizhaabikizigan, though I cant say for sure that hyphens are never used in ordinary writing in Ojibwe either. —Soap— 13:38, 30 March 2020 (UTC) Okay I see native speakers using hyphens, but it still could be that one dictionary is using them to show the morpheme boundaries as an aid to the reader when they would not be used in ordinary writing. —Soap— 17:42, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Sorry for the very long delay, but I forgot about this. user:CJLippert replied to me on Wikipedia and the answer is here. —Soap— 23:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
So to sum up, the current spelling we have for this word is fine. Some linguistic dictionaries will add hyphens, which would make the word miini-baashkiminasigani-biitoosijigani-badagwiingweshigani-bakwezhigan, a policy which we seem to follow at least some of the time. But it is still definitely a single word and should not be written with spaces. Is it a dictionary-only word? I think not, because it's quite easy to find this word being used online on sites that aren't dictionaries. I would say that nearly all people using this word are specifically choosing it because of how long it is, but that hasn't stopped us from including other very long words. (Also, we never said this was the longest word in Ojibwe, since after all the part that means blueberry is just miini ... a blackberry pie would be a few syllables longer.)
- I note, as said above, that this word also seems to be in circulation without the fourth morpheme, producing the slightly shorter miini-baashkiminasigani-biitoosijigani-bakwezhigan. —Soap— 01:45, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Pinging @-sche, who knows more about this language than we do. A lot depends on the context: if it's not accompanied with the normal morphology associated with similar words in similar contexts, it might be more like a mention or an example sentence than an actual use. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Am I correct in understanding that the remaining question is only whether the term should be spelled with or without hyphens, since its existence as a word (with no spaces, despite the length) is demonstrated by the Ojibwe People's Dictionary? Unfortunately, I don't speak much Ojibwe at all and haven't read enough literature in it to have a sense of whether this would most often be written with or without hyphens. Online, I find various mentions of the hyphenated word, vs only a few unhyphenated examples (often low-quality or embedded in Russian); based on that and the Ojibwe People's Dictionary, it seems it should be moved to the form with hyphens. As to why it's not spelled with spaces... as Chuck said in an early comment, some languages prefer strings like this, parsed as words (with or without hyphens: e.g. Nuxalk has some rather long strings with no spaces or hyphens, nor even vowels or syllable breaks), where other languages (like Navajo) might prefer to use several separate words parsed as forming a long descriptive term. - -sche (discuss) 03:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @-sche: This isn't in the Ojibwe People's Dictionary. Rather, a form with fewer components is: miini-baashkiminasigani-biitoosijigani-bakwezhigan, which I've just created. AFAICT, we generally hyphenate Ojibwe compounds, as does OPD. Compare akiiwe-wiigiwaam, aabita-niibino-giizis, gichi-manidoo-giizis, etc. I can't comment as to whether the hyphens are used in actual texts written in the language, because almost all hits I've found while searching for the preceding three terms on Google are mentions embedded in other language (usually English) text. Exceptions include this tribal constitution and this journal article, both of which use the hyphens.
- As an LDL, one source suffices for Ojibwe. However, WT:CFI still says that "the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate as the only sources for entries based on a single mention". Wiktionary:About Ojibwe is silent on that (as it is about hyphenation), but based on actual practice, OPD would undoubtedly be in that list. Would the current source pass muster? IDK. There may be others. Almost all the Google hits are just sites about long words, though.
- Btw, I strongly suspect that the more normal word for blueberry pie would be miini-biitoosijigan, but ironically that isn't in OPD and barely registers on Google. OPD does have miskomini-biitoosijigan (raspberry pie), though. 70.172.194.25 09:16, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Am I correct in understanding that the remaining question is only whether the term should be spelled with or without hyphens, since its existence as a word (with no spaces, despite the length) is demonstrated by the Ojibwe People's Dictionary? Unfortunately, I don't speak much Ojibwe at all and haven't read enough literature in it to have a sense of whether this would most often be written with or without hyphens. Online, I find various mentions of the hyphenated word, vs only a few unhyphenated examples (often low-quality or embedded in Russian); based on that and the Ojibwe People's Dictionary, it seems it should be moved to the form with hyphens. As to why it's not spelled with spaces... as Chuck said in an early comment, some languages prefer strings like this, parsed as words (with or without hyphens: e.g. Nuxalk has some rather long strings with no spaces or hyphens, nor even vowels or syllable breaks), where other languages (like Navajo) might prefer to use several separate words parsed as forming a long descriptive term. - -sche (discuss) 03:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- Pinging @-sche, who knows more about this language than we do. A lot depends on the context: if it's not accompanied with the normal morphology associated with similar words in similar contexts, it might be more like a mention or an example sentence than an actual use. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
April 2020
[edit]German. Probably only used in terms like KBC-Waffen / ABC-Waffen, in which at best there is a pseudo-prefix KBC- / ABC-. --Bakunla (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Cited ABC, will look for KBC later. Used in a variety of hyphenated compounds. It's clearly a common initialism, and being a "pseudo-prefix" isn't really an argument to delete it, since by definition it implies it is really some other POS, presumably that of its constituents (i.e. adjective in this case). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 02:37, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- ABC isn't cited yet, only some examples for terms like ABC-Krieg and ABC-Vollschutz were provided. It's comparable to terms with Langzeit- (Langzeit doesn't exists). Maybe compare with:
- wissen.de which has it as Langzeit... It says: "in Zus." = in compounds, which is true like: Langzeitversuch = lang + Zeit + Versuch.
- de:Langzeit- calls it a bound lexeme ("gebundenes Lexem") which they distinguish from affixes and also from "affixoids" (like de:tod- which they call prefixoid ("Präfixoid")). In en.wiktionary however bound lexems and affixoids are simply given as affixes.
- duden.de while having some terms with Langzeit- has nothing like Langzeit, Langzeit-, Langzeit... but it lacks some affixes, affixoids or bound lexemes. (tod- is an example which they have and they call it prefix.)
- --2003:DE:372E:DA74:2560:4D6F:A0D6:B2F5 15:05, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "In en.wiktionary however bound lexems and affixoids are simply given as affixes"—not really, Wiktionary has things like
{{only used in}}precisely for bound lexemes and generally those entries are not formatted as affixes. As for Langzeit-, in all but one of the existing entries in Langzeit- the term is straightforwardly broken down to lang + Zeit, the "affixoid" category with one entry you linked is not the standard practice. If we're following de.wikt, de:ABC has its own entry and is simply noted as "meist in Wortverbindungen gebräuchlich", which is comparable to the standard practice to en.wikt. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 15:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)- If de.wt's "meist in Wortverbindungen gebräuchlich" (meist = mostly, not only) is factually correct, then it deserves an entry at ABC. Question is, is it correct? --2003:DE:372E:DAD0:B169:E28F:1253:8DB8 21:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- "In en.wiktionary however bound lexems and affixoids are simply given as affixes"—not really, Wiktionary has things like
Greek for León, Spain. According to Wikipedia it's Λεόν. Ultimateria (talk) 05:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- That article on the Greek Wikipedia gives Λεώνη as the “Hellenization” of León and Llión. --Lambiam 08:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek, could you please take a look at this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes @Metaknowledge, it is as Lambiam explains. Many cities have both variants: phonetic unadapted simplified spelling and -usually older style:- adapted with declension. But The female's name is only Λεώνη, not Λεόν, @Ultimateria. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 07:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: In this edit summary, you stated a willingness to add quotations. When you have the free time, it would be nice if you could do that, so we can close this RfV. (You can even just send me links to Google Books or similar and I'll do the rest, if desired.) 70.172.194.25 08:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Happy New Year. No need for quotation. A google search for "Λεώνη" "Ισπανία" (Spain) gives numerous examples with snippets and titles for given name and placename (of no other interest). I verify that both definitions exist. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ I 11:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: In this edit summary, you stated a willingness to add quotations. When you have the free time, it would be nice if you could do that, so we can close this RfV. (You can even just send me links to Google Books or similar and I'll do the rest, if desired.) 70.172.194.25 08:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes @Metaknowledge, it is as Lambiam explains. Many cities have both variants: phonetic unadapted simplified spelling and -usually older style:- adapted with declension. But The female's name is only Λεώνη, not Λεόν, @Ultimateria. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 07:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
June 2020
[edit]Thai. This seems to be a morpheme, not a word. I'm not sure how to clean up the entry, or whether it should remain when fixed. According to the (Thai) Royal Institute Dictionary (RID), the independent word is อุตส่าห์ (note the tone mark and cancellation mark), yielding the unbound pronunciation shown, while อุตสาห is a trisyllabic prefix, notated อุตสาห- in the RID. (The Thai of the RID does use hyphens.) The RID also reports a trisyllabic stand-alone form, อุตสาหะ. Before one spelling reform, if the word existed (evidence?), the trisyllabic unbound form would have been spelt the same as the challenged lemma. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- You will find lots of อุตสาหกรรม (อุตสาห + กรรม) in search results, and some rare compounds like อุตสาหการ (อุตสาห + การ). In Wiktionary, every form of a word can have its own page, that is, we can have อุตสาห, อุตส่าห์, อุตสาหะ, อุษาหะ, อุสสาหะ, and อุสส่าห์. --Octahedron80 (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- The compounds you cited are evidence for อุตสาห-, are they not? I'm not sure how to link all these forms. Linked they should be. Is the etymology of อุตสาหกรรม
{{compound|th|อุตสาห|กรรม}},{{compound|th|อุตสาหะ|กรรม}},{{compound|th|อุตส่าห์|กรรม}},{{compound|th|อุตสาห-|กรรม}}or even{{compound|th|อุตสาห-|-กรรม}}? Or{{prefix|th|อุตสาห|กรรม}}? And why doesn't the latter link to a form with a hyphen? Amusingly, อุตสาหกรรม gets broken between lines with a hyphen (at the morpheme join) in the 1999 edition of the RID.--RichardW57 (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- The compounds you cited are evidence for อุตสาห-, are they not? I'm not sure how to link all these forms. Linked they should be. Is the etymology of อุตสาหกรรม
If อุตสาห is now only the combining form (the disyllabic nonocombining form has vanished since I raised this RfV), why is its part of speech 'adjective' as opposed to 'prefix'? --RichardW57 (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- I added
{{compound|th|อุตสาห|กรรม}}. Thai lemmas here do not have hyphen for prefix/suffix because they have same meaning of its full word so prefix/suffix will be written on the same page, unless they are spelled different. And Thai lemmas can always attach to another word even they are not prefix/suffix (a noun can modify another noun, etc), like Chinese and other languages in the SEA region. In case of อุตสาห, the dictionary said:
- I added
อุตสาห-, อุตส่าห์, อุตสาหะ น. ความบากบั่น, ความพยายาม, ความขยัน, ความอดทน, ใช้ว่า อุษาหะ อุสสาหะ หรือ อุสส่าห์ ก็มี. ก. บากบั่น, พยายาม, ขยัน, อดทน.
and
อุสส่าห์, อุสสาหะ น. อุตสาหะ. ก. อุตส่าห์.
- that means the entry อุตสาห should be noun (น.), since morpheme cannot be verb (ก.). อุตส่าห์, อุตสาหะ, อุสส่าห์, อุสสาหะ, and unmentioned อุษาหะ are full words. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, it means the preceding combining form is written in words as "อุตสาห", while as a whole word it is อุตส่าห์ (ùt-sàa) or อุตสาหะ (ùt-sǎa-hà). The rest means that the word forms are both nouns and verbs, and that there are yet other spellings in use. Taking the RID as a whole, it's not clear to me what the status of อุษาหะ is; unlike the other forms, it has no entry of its own in the RID. Note there is no entry อุตสาห in the RID; the entry is อุตสาห-. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- There are two main modes of noun compounding in Thai. Indic words are combined in the order (modifier, head), and the first element usually sprouts a linking vowel and the restoration in speech of the silent final vowels, and often clarification of the phonation of a final stop. There may also be spelling changes. This the old Indo-European order, still seen in English compounds like coalmine. The native order is (head, modifier), and it is often not clear whether this is syntax or word derivation. The first element may be modified, e.g. by the vowel shortening, but this is not visible in writing. There are then a few anomalous compounds, like ผลไม้ (pǒn-lá-máai, “fruit”), with native ordering but still a link vowel. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note that in this case that the noun and its compounding form are written differently. I believe there is no big problem with giving the etymology of the compound as
{{compound|th|อุตสาหะ|กรรม}}; what is uncertain is whether it is a compound of the 2- or 3-syllable form. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Note that in this case that the noun and its compounding form are written differently. I believe there is no big problem with giving the etymology of the compound as
- I notice that Octahedron80 has sneakily changed the part of speech to 'noun'. With that change, the entry is clearly a candidate for deletion, as there is no noun อุตสาห (utasāha) in correctly spelt modern Thai. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have originally created it as a noun, since the PoS distinction in a language such as Thai is blurred, especially for compound words. I was guided by its meaning and my Thai is below average.
- It's was reasonable to change it to noun. The term is present in Sanook dictionary. There are so many derivations. Please keep the word. อุตส่าห์ (ùt-sàa) should be the alt or the main spelling, IMO. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's not a word in modern Thai! The Sanook dictionary is a compilation of other dictionaries. Which one are you citing? The headword from the RID looks corrupt, but perhaps it's from so old a version that the hyphen wasn't there. A 1950's book teaching Thai laments that the spelling นม represented both of what are now written as นมะ (námá, “homage”) and นม (nom, “milk)”). --RichardW57 (talk) 10:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Here's the link. What are you suggesting? I don't think it's very typical to have Thai entries with hyphens. Another solution, like having a component as SoP may be required. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm stating that as a copy of a recent RID dictionary, the headwords in the Sanook dictionary are corrupt. I have one other big Thai dictionary, and that also shows combining forms with a hyphen. It seems that the correct way forward is to:
- Mark this entry as a 'noun form', the combining form of อุตส่าห์ (ùt-sàa) and อุตสาหะ (ùt-sǎa-hà). (I have jocularly referred to Thai as having a genitive case.) --RichardW57 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Use first of these forms as the central lemma, referencing compounds to it. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- On those two pages, say, in the usage notes, how compounds are formed and handled. Display this entry with a hyphen, which is the expectation of readers who have used a good Thai dictionary. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- A longer term solution is to change
{{prefix}}so that it expects Thai prefixes to have hyphens, and rename this entry to the hyphenated form, as seen in good dictionaries. Special handling will be needed if we can find evidence of the use of the challenged word's form as a noun. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC) - Michell's 1892 dictionary has อุสสาห, but curiously indicates a disyllabic pronunciation. If that had been entered as a noun, it would be right to keep it as an obsolete spelling. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm stating that as a copy of a recent RID dictionary, the headwords in the Sanook dictionary are corrupt. I have one other big Thai dictionary, and that also shows combining forms with a hyphen. It seems that the correct way forward is to:
- Here's the link. What are you suggesting? I don't think it's very typical to have Thai entries with hyphens. Another solution, like having a component as SoP may be required. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's not a word in modern Thai! The Sanook dictionary is a compilation of other dictionaries. Which one are you citing? The headword from the RID looks corrupt, but perhaps it's from so old a version that the hyphen wasn't there. A 1950's book teaching Thai laments that the spelling นม represented both of what are now written as นมะ (námá, “homage”) and นม (nom, “milk)”). --RichardW57 (talk) 10:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I notice that Octahedron80 has sneakily changed the part of speech to 'noun'. With that change, the entry is clearly a candidate for deletion, as there is no noun อุตสาห (utasāha) in correctly spelt modern Thai. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Hundreds of words are in the same case like this. For example แพทย/แพทย์, อินทร/อินทร์, ศาสตร/ศาสตร์, ธุร/ธุระ, etc, if you want to look into it. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:49, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. They need to be dealt with. I intend to create a template for noting the existence of a combining form. I think I'll call it
{{th-combining}}. Its expansion may need rework, as head-initial and head-final compounding are different, but I couldn't think of a snappy way of saying that to non-linguists. For แพทย์ (pɛ̂ɛt, “physician”), แพทย์หญิง (pɛ̂ɛt-yǐng, “female doctor”) versus แพทยศาสตร์ (pɛ̂ɛt-tá-yá-sàat, “medicine (the disicipline)”) exemplifies the difference. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
German "Suffixes"
[edit]- -beck, -büren/-bühren, -broich in place-names: Instead of being formed with the suffix, rather the place-names are borrowed, e.g. German Lübeck from Low German or Middle Low German.
- -vitz/-witz in surnames: Rather from place-names, e.g. Horowitz from the German place Horowitz, influenced by Slavic.
--Marontyan (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Did @Marontyan mean that these should not be listed as German suffixes? If so, I'm inclined to agree, on the basis that I doubt German speakers would either attach a meaning to them or use them for new placenames. On the other hand, they are clearly recognisable components of German words and there are precedents for this such as -wick and -by from Norse placenames borrowed into English. I don't know how to resolve this. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 16:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Two possibilities:
- Delete as not German and German terms being borrowed (Horowitz from Slavic, cp. Hořovice).
- Add label and note, "not productive", "only occuring in borrowings".
- --09:00, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Two possibilities:
Russian. Rfv-sense "(vulgar, offensive) promiscuous slut". Originally added by an IP (with the wrong template) with the reasoning: "Reliable source needed for that use of the word" in diff. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 21:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
- There are lot of senses in this word. But of course it also has the sexual connotations associated with dogs, actually more than the English bitch which often refers to the pesky behaviour of dogs (→ bitchy), so translation is not one to one. Maybe all those senses you find for как суку in pornographic sites on the web are examples for this gloss. Fay Freak (talk) 20:32, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- I would say not necessarily promiscuous, but a slut in some quasi-positive sense, more like a sexually attractive sophisticated woman. --GareginRA (talk) 12:34, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
July 2020
[edit]New Saxon Spellings
[edit]See the search results. The Wikipedia article was deleted. --B-Fahrer (talk) 14:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
September 2020
[edit]Afrikaans. Rfv-sense of "thought", all I find are old-fashioned verb forms or parts of compounds. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Lingo Bingo Dingo: "maar hy hat het iets in hom gehad wat buite die denk van ons volk gereik het" "maar vir die denk moet ons onderskei - en altyd onthou dat dit ons is wat die onderskeiding gemaak het.". I suppose the translation "thinking" may be better, but there is definitely a noun in this form. Thadh (talk) 15:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Thadh These are basically substantivised infinitives, like Dutch het denken. So yes, the translation is "thinking". I don't think they are lemmatised separately. @Metaknowledge?
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:53, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Thadh These are basically substantivised infinitives, like Dutch het denken. So yes, the translation is "thinking". I don't think they are lemmatised separately. @Metaknowledge?
December 2020
[edit]According to a complaint of a native Mon speaker (Special:PermaLink/61255799/#Mon_Vocabulary_problem_explanation_(ကွေန်ၚါ်တြုံ); File:You stop hurt my language.jpg), these two spelling variants for ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ (“boy”) are non-existent. I googled these two and failed to obtain favorable results though some of their components (ကောန် (kon) / ကွေန် (“child”), တြုံ (truˀ, “male”)) are attested. --Eryk Kij (talk) 10:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- For ကွေန်ၚါ် , go to [3] to look for "ကွေန် ၚါ် ". (That site uses space between compound).
- For ကောန်ညာ် , here is my evidence พจนานุกรมไทย-มอญ สำเนียงมอญลพบุรี(p122lost).pdf (2007) look at page 70. It is intentionally spelled like that.
- တြုံ is a word that can be added any noun expressing male.
- About its author, จำปี ซื่อสัตย์, I don't know if he is still alive. He must be 90 years old now.
- Anyway, you should copy my another dictionary too พจนานุกรมมอญ-ไทย.pdf (1984).
- And if you can open sqlite database, also take this too Mon-Thai Dictionary.sqlite. I extracted from this mobile app.
- --Octahedron80 (talk) 16:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80 Thank you for your explanation. I have difficulty understanding Thai, so it would be harder without you. OK, some combinations of the components are indeed attested. Then, is there any source that shows each of the spellings from beginning to end? Even some parts of them are attested, it would be another matter whether these two combinations are documented as they are. The variants listed at the current version of ကောန်ၚာ် (kon ṅāk) are of course OK, but when it comes to the forms seen at ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ, things are quite uncertain. Your attitudes gives the impression that you could create an entry *徒葩 as a spelling variant for Japanese 徒花 (adabana, “a flower that blooms but never bears fruit”) since both 葩 (quite uncommon) and 花 (quite common) are read as hana and have the sense “flower, blossom” in common, therefore they are always freely interchangeable—no, no, actually it is not! We cannot do such a horrific deed without complete evidence —otherwise, what we do will be perfect invention! --Eryk Kij (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @エリック・キィ About the whole word "ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ", I was not the one who created it at first, I renamed to another form and, after 咽頭べさ was mad, then I reverted back. (I cannot rename same page twice so I edited it instead.) I can only verify ကောန်ၚာ် and တြုံ solely. You may ask him about "ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ" if there is some evidence either. (It should be documented somewhere / or it is just SOP?) I could remove alternative forms of "ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ" if there is no evidence, even their parts have.--Octahedron80 (talk) 00:20, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, 咽頭べさ mistakenly put some unknown texts into IPA template in many words; I assume he does not know IPA. I must follow his track to cleanup this mess. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80 I agree with you on this point. I asked him about this topic (it seems something other than IPA, then what is it?) before, but he has made no reply so far...--Eryk Kij (talk) 09:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, 咽頭べさ mistakenly put some unknown texts into IPA template in many words; I assume he does not know IPA. I must follow his track to cleanup this mess. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- A few observations: First, the self-assessment by this editor as "en-2" is rather generous. Figuring out how much they understand our policies is likely to be a challenge, and explaining anything doubly so.
- Second, it's easier to take the word of a native speaker as to the existence of something in their language than its non-existence. Unless they're familiar with all the other dialects, they could be just as ignorant as non-speakers about the vocabulary of people a couple of valleys over.
- Also, in an environment where their language is actively discouraged, one would expect a certain prescriptivism that sees variation from what they're battling to defend as an attack (that environment would increase isolation between speakers, as well, which reinforces my second point).
- Of course, I have no direct knowledge, so I could be completely off base. I would rather bend over backward and walk on eggshells than risk piling on with those around them who don't want to hear their language. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80, Chuck Entz Please don't worry, I have no doubt about the existence of the term ကောန်ၚာ်တြုံ itself, since I am able to find its records through Google Search. What he (yes he, judging from the audio records) and I regard as a problem is which combination is allowed to spell and which is not. --Eryk Kij (talk) 08:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz >Unless they're familiar with all the other dialects, they could be just as ignorant as non-speakers about the vocabulary of people a couple of valleys over.
- Of course, I understand this point. That's why I have made this edit. Mon language has numerous dialects but no official standard variety is seen while something similar to it exists (Bauer 1982: xvii; Jenny 2005: 30; Jenny 2015: 555). Thus, even if a certain word itself is attested in a material in terms of pronunciation and spelling, there is NO guarantee that we can apply it directly to other dialects. --Eryk Kij (talk) 09:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Jeju terms for modern concepts
[edit]As categorized by UNESCO and as discussed in Wikipedia, fluent speakers of the actual Jeju language were all born in the 1940s or earlier. The following terms relating to modern concepts are not likely to be found in traditional Jeju, which was spoken solely by impoverished peasants. As what is now spoken in Jeju Island—an indubitably Korean dialect—is not what we mean by Jeju in Wiktionary, I believe these entries should all be deleted unless someone can provide an actual early attestation (preferably from the very first academic studies of the dialect, in the 1960s). The Digital Museum for Endangered Languages and Cultures or the NIKL dictionaries ported at Urimalsaem is not necessarily reliable in this regard, since they do not really make this distinction.
Making the distinction between traditional, soon-to-be-extinct Jeju and Category:Jeju Korean is crucial for maintaining some integrity in Category:Jeju lemmas. The most credible dictionary of Jeju, 개정증보제주어사전, does not bother with these modernisms and I believe we should follow their lead. — This unsigned comment was added by Karaeng Matoaya (talk • contribs) at 19:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC).
- To anyone who's going through these, please do not delete them for now, as I'm finding cites and am planning on making a complete update soon, but have been behind recently. Thanks! AG202 (talk) 07:43, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- I know that your opinions have changed a lot since this comment and that we've been able to find a TON of material made in Jeju, so I don't fault you at all for making them at the time. Since the start of the revitalization efforts, there have been more materials being made in native Jeju by Jeju natives (and not in 제주 사투리) and more lexicons being made, so I don't necessarily agree with saying that everything must be from pre-1960, as even if the only Jeju speakers were born in the 1940s or earlier (there are younger Jeju natives but they're more rare), they'd still be able to make up new terms for things that have come into play since then. However, I have deleted the senses that I am completely unable to find and don't think that I will find, per the RFV guidelines. Additionally, the cites that I have found have been written by-and-large in native Jeju and not Jeju-tinged Korean, by or the with consultation of native Jeju speakers and have been published either by the Jeju Preservation Society, the Jeju Provincial Government, or in related Jeju studies. AG202 (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Wasei kango for "society", not a traditional word. I think it should be deleted entirely because the actual form in modern Jeju speech is likely to be 사훼 (sahwe) (due to the loss of /ɔ/), which is pronounced identically to Standard Korean 사회 (sahoe). The word ᄉᆞ훼 (sawhwe) represents an intermediary stage between "true" Jeju and the modern Jeju-tinged Korean, and I do not think we should categorize this stage as Jeju.
- FYI, the historical Korean reading for 社 was 샤, not ᄉᆞ. So it cannot start with ᄉᆞ in Jeju. --172.58.16.111 06:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
RFV-failed and I've moved the sense to 사훼 (sahwe). However, I have added the other ᄉᆞ훼(司會) (sawhwe, “moderator”), as that is cited in 개정 증보 제주어 사전. AG202 (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
How many bicycles existed in Jeju before South Korean industrialization? This form is a dialectal pronunciation of 自行車, a term which was definitely used in many mainland dialects in 1945, so it could well be a post-1940s introduction into the island. Should be changed to 자영거 (jayeonggeo) under the Korean header with {{lb|ko|Jeju}}.
- On the other hand, the historical Korean reading for 自 was ᄌᆞ. So it can start with ᄌᆞ in Jeju. --172.58.16.111 06:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Cited. AG202 (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
RFV-passed. AG202 (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
This word is not attested in Korean in the "tourist" sense before the 1910s, and is a Japanese import. How many tourists were in Jeju before South Korean industrialization?
Cited. AG202 (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
RFV-passed. AG202 (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
"Memorial hall" in the modern sense. Also likely to be a modernism.
RFV-failed. Was only able to find it in one source, and it doesn't seem like an actual usage, but just in a name. AG202 (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
"Refrigerator". Refrigerators were not common in South Korea until the 1970s.
Cited. AG202 (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
English loan meaning "brand" (as in a perfume brand, etc.). Highly unlikely to be found in traditional Jeju.
RFV-failed. I don't think we need this entry anyways. AG202 (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
"Camera".
"Biosphere" in the modern scientific sense.
RFV-failed. Was only able to find it in the name of something, not an actual usage. AG202 (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
"Electric fan". Electric fans were not common in South Korea until the 1980s.
"Demon, Devil". Has Christian connotations to me as a native speaker of Korean, and not found in 제주도무속자료사전 or other sources on Jeju religion; the very concept is alien to Jeju religious practice. Likely a late Christian introduction; the date is unknown, but Christianity was very marginal in Jeju until the 1950s and is still not particularly important there. If it fails RFV, should be changed to the Korean header with {{lb|ko|Jeju}}.
A modern historiographical term that could not have existed before the 1950s.
"Main character; protagonist" in the modern literary sense, probably from Japanese.
"Television". Did not exist in Korea before the 1950s.
RFV-failed. Most common translation is 테레비 (terebi). AG202 (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
"Wind power plant".
Dutch. These seem unattestable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how chemical CFI works, but compounds with decyl: N,N'-bis(10-(p- methoxyfenoxy)-decyl)-p-diaminobenzeen, di(n-hexyl,n-octyl,n-decyl)ftalaat decyl-trimethylammonium, plain decyl: [4]. Thadh (talk) 18:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- That is a systematic name but has Dutch spelling of components, benzeen instead of benzene, etc. A paper from 2009 talks about chemistry translation: doi:10.1021/ci800243w. I think di(n-hexyl,n-octyl,n-decyl)ftalaat appearing in a Dutch paper can be used to support decyl, octyl, and ftalaat (= phthalate, I assume). Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Persian. I can't find this term in any reputable dictionary. --{{victar|talk}} 22:13, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Victar: [5] --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:10, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Victar: Repeating the call. Do you still insist on the verifications? I won't be able to add citations in Persian, I am afraid, need native speakers. I have found the term in another dictionary English-Persian Persian-English (it requires registration and this dictionary can be borrowed for an hour). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- @ZxxZxxZ, Dijan, Qehath Anyone? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:41, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Victar: Repeating the call. Do you still insist on the verifications? I won't be able to add citations in Persian, I am afraid, need native speakers. I have found the term in another dictionary English-Persian Persian-English (it requires registration and this dictionary can be borrowed for an hour). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I found it only in Amid dictionary. It's a relatively smaller Persian dictioary containing words found in the late Persian literature. The Amid dictionary of the Vajehyab website has cited a couplet (I guess it is based on the revised edition of the Amid Dictionary). --Z 07:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
German. Sense: a swarm of bees. --幽霊四 (talk) 14:30, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- 幽霊四: If you just looked into the darn standard references instead of the Duden which covers only the last century you wouldn’t need to request. Especially impudent if the sense is explicitly labelled obsolete. Here a selection of attestation-based dictionaries: FNHDWB, DRW, Grimm. Etc.. With varying spellings of course, but we wouldn’t want to have the word under Yme etc. either and as a rule we unify, if you didn’t know. Case closed, newb without user page? Fay Freak (talk) 15:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Grimm: It's "imme, m.". Different gender (and also different capitalisation). Also Grimme covers more than New High German.
- DRW:
- Examples have "ein immen", "ain imp", "ein unverfolgter impen", "ein imme", so often have other forms and where the gender is revealed without any doubts [i.e. in "ein unverfolgter impen"], it's masculine.
- Meaning: "Bienenstock und -schwarm" (bee-hive and bee-swarm), that's different from the entry. (Is it even both bee-hive and bee-swarm (a single sense) or either bee-hive or bee-swarm (two senses, though sometimes/often hard to distinguish?)
- DRW's quotes are incorrect as can be seen by the 1709 Mutach quote for Impen at Talk:Imme#Citations. ("Normalization" in a quote makes the quote incorrect - a correct quote keeps spelling including capitalisation of the original work. In case of Impen also the page-number is wrong: It's 41 and not 40.)
- "I Bienenstock und -schwarm" with "den hochflugk der impen lassen wir" looks like it could be wrong too: It could be a feminine singular genitive der impen of imp/impe/impen = "swarm of bees", but also a plural genitive with the second sense "bee".
- DRW also includes OHG, MHG and MLG, so many quotes are insufficient for German.
- FWB (= Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch, this is the abbreviation used there and not "FNHDWB"):
- Sense "1. Bienenschwarm, Bienenstock" with "sehet an die immen, die machen das honig aus der edelsten manna aller blumen" looks like it could be wrong too: it's immen pl. = bees, so rather an example for sense "2. Biene".
- "Etc.":
- Adelung doesn't have this sense. "Im Friesischen Ihme, in andern gegenden Ympe, wo es auch einen Bienenstock bedeutet" refers to Frisian (East Frisian Low German or Frisian Frisian?).
- BMZ and Lexer are for Middle High German.
- ElsWB, PfWB are for dialects which aren't part of German in Wiktionary.
- -幽霊四 (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC) & 幽霊四 (talk) 00:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- Because of the grammar of the Early New High German texts, in many cases it is not clear which gender the quotes have – you do not seem to understand the grammar, “ein imme” can also be feminine back then; especially in Bavarian areas also “ein immen” –; in addition to what FNHDWB says that in many attestations it is not clear if a swarm of bees or bees as individuals are meant. However I see from some quotes there clearly that the meaning of an individual bee has also been masculine. So a solution is to change to masculine and have a feminine POS as alternative form because the feminine is only a modern perversion of some poets and it does not matter whether it has recently been used more often as feminine since it is not often at all; or give m in the head and then f immediately after. In any case the way you requested here is to be reprehended since someone dealing with it and not knowing where to search German could have, because of nobody answering, just deleted the sense while at most a gender switch would have been appropriate. And no, capitalisation is irrelevant, New High German nouns get added capitalized even if they died out before capitalisation of nouns was a thing, and those liberal writers who do not follow the capitalization rules in modern times are treated as if they have written their texts capitalized regularly, because otherwise it’s confusing. Fay Freak (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Can you point me to the rule that says we unify? I was under the impression it was a contentious thing, done on a language-by-language basis. And WT:About German says "Wiktionary includes all attested spellings", so as a rule, we don't unify German. Perhaps instead of harassing the "newb without a user page" you should check what the rules actually are?
- Just verify the damn thing, Fay Freak. The general rules say that we need cites for any words, not cribbing from dictionaries. We can quibble about stuff after we have a suitable number of citations.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:05, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Prosfilaes: Can you point me to the rule that says we do not unify and have to find every sense in every spelling in every gender three times? No, because it’s not true. The word is not “spelling”, hence unifying. I have proven it also on various places, as for example by the fact that one can attest from audio, or texts written scriptio continua, etc., e.g. above under Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/Non-English#baußen, also on Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/English#Huang-ch'i I noted that “we cannot derive from the mere entry layout practice that for alternative spelling pages entries are cloned the requirement that each such sense or even only part of speech needs three citations”. The fact that one needs to argue for certain interpretations of the law does not speak against the stance of him who argues.
- I have shown attestations above; the dictionaries give quotes. Can you demonstrate me a rule that we need cites typed off into the page and that referring to dictionaries quoting the senses or spellings, e.g. even other Wiktionaries, wouldn’t suffice? The fact that we constantly have too little personnel and are underpaid suggests otherwise, as well as the fact that blind quotes of quotes given in other sources are avoided in science.
- You don’t seriously suggest we should have this word under Ymme or Yme or perhaps ymme or yme because of not being quoted in the modern spelling and the particular gender and particular sense? Because “we operate under the tyranny of entry titles”?
- I have presented multiple ways of representing the word. You speak of harrassing but it is perfectly legimitate to point out that his request was unclear in concerning the particular gender so it could have lead to excessive deletion of a known sense, and a fact that one is negatively disposed towards users who do not state their language levels on their user pages, and I do not forgo to notify particularly newbs of uncomfortable truths, because they in particular have to get to know things. If “newb” is an offensive then one shall forgive me because I am not responsible for every neutral word’s meaning being ousted by connotations to an extent that we cannot communicate without a nimb of aggression. Language hasn’t been made for the internet. Fay Freak (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Again, WT:About German says "Wiktionary includes all attested spellings". You shouldn't say "as a rule we unify, if you didn’t know" to a newb, if there are established users who would argue against it. There's a difference between arguing for a position, and informing someone that a position is the rule.
- Nice change in standards of evidence, if you make a claim, you don't have to provide evidence. If I make a claim, I have to demonstrate an exact rule. Have I been wasting my time on RFV when I could have just responded by "check out Google Books"? When I added cites to Uno, people disagreed that some of those cites were appropriate cites: see the archived discussion on Talk:Uno. It would have been a lot harder to have that discussion had I and other people not copied the text into the article. In this case, the user has disagreed with your cites; it would be much easier to work with if the cites were here where we could read them, instead of just handwaves at dictionaries.
- Yes, I seriously suggest we should have this word under the spellings it's used under. As you quote a vote, you know that this is not an uncontentious issue at Wiktionary--Wiktionary:Votes/2020-09/Removing_Old_English_entries_with_wynns closed 9-4--and the vote you quote is very limited, as wynn can be replaced one for one with w in all cases in Old English. We shouldn't have to map from a spelling used in real life to some arbitrary spelling invented by a dictionary writer, us or someone else.
- You don't distinguish "uncomfortable truths" from "Fay Freak's opinions", and this is not the first time I've seen you do this. Here's an uncomfortable truth; you'd be running a chance of getting blocked on some other English Wikis, and acting like it's other people's fault and "Language hasn’t been made for the internet." is absurd when many other people manage to follow these rules and newb says "(Internet slang, sometimes derogatory)", so yes, it's made for the Internet, and it's always had that negative meaning. And while "newb" may be somewhat problematic, the fact you're asserting Fay Freak's opinions as "uncomfortable truths" that they obviously should have known (despite the fact you can't cite any place on the Wiki where they could have learned those "truths") is much more problematic. As is saying "the way you requested here is to be reprehended", which condemns the person instead of focusing on the action, say, "an RFV on a word could cause it to be incorrectly deleted." Which is itself garbage; if someone feels a word needs RFV, they should feel free to RFV it. There are points someone RFVing a bunch of words that are going to be kept could be a problem, but I'd say that's never the case for words that might get deleted; nominating words for RFV should get cites added, making them clearly attested words, and in many cases get definitions refined and separated out.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:43, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Prosfilaes I have added a few cites, though it is advisable that a native speaker looks it over.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:06, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Dutch, two senses: "(chiefly Belgium) A place name" and "(chiefly Belgium) A surname with the prefix van". The second sense exists at Vandievoet or Van Dievoet because that is how Flemish names work, the first sense does not seem attestable in use; although there are mentions of a hamlet in Ukkel (Uccle). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Morgengave What is your view on this?
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2021 (UTC)- @Lingo Bingo Dingo I don't know the place myself, but Dievoort seems to be a place near Breda: [[w:Dievoort].|The place in Ukkel is indeed called Dievoet, not Dietvoort. Morgengave] (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Cleaned up, but don't have access to Buiks (1999) or (1992) where Dievoort is apparently mentioned. I did find this though: https://erfgoed.breda.nl/upload/downloads/4_7_buiks_Hout_low.pdf (pp. 991-92), where the place near Breda is only called Dietvoort, but there was a place near Meerhout called Dievoort. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
February 2021
[edit]Translingual. Looks English, cp. angiosperm, sperm, -s. --幽霊四 (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Depending on the outcome, possibly to add: magnoliids, monocots, core eudicots (also cp. core), superasterids, asterids, superrosids, rosids, fabids, malvids. --幽霊四 (talk) 01:25, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Clades are tricky, because many of them don't have an accepted conventional taxonomic name. The taxonomists working on them give them an informal English name, and other taxonomists use them like the conventional Latin-based taxonomic names- which we treat as Translingual(language code mul) because they're used in a great many languages without being a part of the languages. These English-based names for plants are technically invalid according to the taxonomic code, but they're definitely used in taxonomic contexts.
- This particular one is odd because the clade has a normal taxonomic name, Angiospermae, and there's nothing about the formation of that name that precludes it from being validly given any rank above superfamily. It doesn't seem necessary to use an English-based name in non-English usage. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:09, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- And yet it is so used. DCDuring (talk) 06:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- IMO, none of these are Translingual. They were all created by DCDuring, who has no training in relevant fields and seems opposed to the distinction betwen taxonomic and common names used by workers in the actual field. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:12, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is angiosperms (and are the others) used in multiple languages?
google books:"angiosperms" "das" (with German das n (“the”)), google books:"angiosperms" "le" (with French le m (“the”)) and similar searches (with other articles, with forms of translations of be, excluding the) brought up:- French "les Angiospermes"
- German "Angiospermen (angiosperms): Bedecktsamer; Pflanzen, deren ..." which is only a mentioning of the English
- My search wasn't exhaustive, but I didn't see any non-English usage. --幽霊四 (talk) 09:23, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- If it is then it still does not mean it is translingual. In other languages there is still in principle a distinction between the native language and Translingual even if the terms look the same 100% (which they don’t, due to capitalization). Fay Freak (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is angiosperms (and are the others) used in multiple languages?
- Just move to English. It is formally clear here what is translingual and what English. Fay Freak (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's English. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is not a vote. That might be appropriate in RfM or RfD. There is attestation in scholarly journals for the terms being used in a manner indistinguishable from the Latinate taxonomic names. There is more abundant attestation for Angiosperms. DCDuring (talk) 05:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed that this shouldn't be a vote. It's how it's used that should determine what language header it goes under, not a prescriptive standard. Our Translingual section should be just as descriptive as the rest of the dictionary. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 06:20, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re "There is more abundant attestation for Angiosperms": Is there? Google Books is not case sensitive, so searching for angiosperms and Angiosperms brings up the same results. As I searched, I didn't see more for the capitalised variant. --幽霊四 (talk) 12:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- I found abundant attestation for Angiosperm in use parallel to Latinate taxa at Google Scholar. I searched for "clade Angiosperms". DCDuring (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- “manner indistinguishable from the Latinate taxonomic names”. Cannot nachvollziehen such reasoning. It’s not only the manner, i.e. the context in which it is used which indicates which language something is. This is the same irrational approach that declares long Latin or Greek bonmots “Danish”. The Verkehrsanschauung is unambiguous about which language it is (and one can hardly with more quotes show that something is more translingual or more English; “eudicots” will not look less English because there are quotes in some other language that has the same pluralization practice, so it is true it is more RfM matter and not RfV matter – though even better, somebody who is able to sharply distinguish can just move/transform such entries for he can rationally defend it). Fay Freak (talk) 13:14, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- The only use in a work not in English is a section of an unpublished Czech thesis which quotes from the English language product of the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group adding a few Czech words in. Elsewhere in the thesis the word is treated as Czech, for example "angiospermní: krytosemenné rostliny, jednoděloţné a dvouděloţné" (angiosperms, plants with hidden seeds...). This supports a borrowing or parallel formation, not a multilingual word. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's very hard to find usage, because of the huge number of false positives due to English titles in their cited references. It's also true that there are taxonomists who don't view APG clade names as valid for taxonomic use and therefore don't use them translingually. Also, this term seems to be much less common than those for which there is no validly published conventional alternative. I was able to find a few that I would argue show translingual usage. I could probably find a few more, if necessary. Most of these are in tables rather than in running text, but I would contend that such is how taxonomic names are often used. Here (on page 10 of the pdf) is one of several where the APG names are contrasted with the standard classifications, but they are both treated as the same sort of thing. This pdf has it at the beginning, while this pdf follows a common Chinese practice of a mixture of translingual and English glosses in parentheses throughout the text, but has a table on the 5th page (numbered 524) where the clade names are in a context that has everything else in either taxonomic Latin or Chinese.
- As for whether these are durably archived: the taxonomic codes, until fairly recently, explicitly required what basically amounts to durable archiving for anything taxonomic to be validly published. As far as I know, it's still very much the practice, with some online journals going so far as to print a limited number of hard copies that are placed in selected libraries to satisfy such requirements. As far as I know, theses for academic credit are all archived with the educational institution, and government publications are archived as well. I can't guarantee that all of these specific articles are durably archived, but there's a high probability that they are. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Here (on page 10 of the pdf)" - page 19 of the PDF, page 3 of the actual work, where it begins with Según APG IV (“According to APG [Angiosperm Phylogeny Group] IV”) and which also has core eudicots? That looks like a mentioning of APG – English? In the bibliography sections, it mentions Catálogo de las Angiospermas y Gimnospermas del Perú.
- "This pdf":
- It doesn't look durably archived.
- It's mentioning English wikipedia, FAO with APG in URL. It could copy English stuff. "United Emirats arabes unis (Arab Emirates) (Arabe, Arabic)" also looks strange regarding the language.
- This is not a vote. That might be appropriate in RfM or RfD. There is attestation in scholarly journals for the terms being used in a manner indistinguishable from the Latinate taxonomic names. There is more abundant attestation for Angiosperms. DCDuring (talk) 05:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Translingual. Looks English, see also -s, also as there are non-English translations. --幽霊四 (talk) 01:20, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- 幽霊四: If it “looks English” then spare us such requests and move to English. Nothing would get lost. Fay Freak (talk) 15:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's an English plural noun. The taxonomic clade is Eudicots. SemperBlotto (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would add a request for Translingual Eudicots as well, with the same reasoning.
- [6] has "der Eudicots" (gen. pl., gender not revealed) and "die core eudicots" (pl., same; with italics), but it's just one source, not sufficent.
- [7] has "Der Name Eudicotyledonae (engl. eudicots)", giving two reasons why it doesn't look translingual: 1. It's English. 2. There's an alternative.
- [8] has it in French, but with quotation marks and also "higher hamamelids" (with quotation marks as well) which is even more English.
- [9] has "Les Eudicotylédones (Eudicots)", "des Eudicots", "Les Rosidées". Could also be regular French (-s), or not?
- --幽霊四 (talk) 19:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- It intuitively doesn't feel like a translingual taxonomic name, since it's not Latin. But maybe there are exceptions. I don't know enough to say for sure. @Chuck Entz and @DCDuring, experts on taxonomy. 70.172.194.25 08:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert, but in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It's tricky, because it isn't part of the standard Latin-based Linnaean nomenclature. The Angiosperm Phylogeny Group uses English in the names for their taxonomic entities rather than Latin, and they're more interested in the tree structure than in assigning standard names for every rank- but they're describing things that don't have a name otherwise. I would call the result a parallel, unofficial naming system, but it's used in multiple languages, which makes it translingual. It's not the system for taxonomic nomenclature, but it has its role. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- It functions just the way the officially (ICZN, ICTV, LPSN, etc) sanctioned taxa do, as lamiids, rosids, eurosids, and a score or more of other APG clade names. It is neither here nor there, but I "feel" it to be a formal taxonomic name, as much as, say, the names of species of viruses (eg, Human alphaherpesvirus 1, which looks like a normal English NP, with an English adjective preceding the head). DCDuring (talk) 16:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- It intuitively doesn't feel like a translingual taxonomic name, since it's not Latin. But maybe there are exceptions. I don't know enough to say for sure. @Chuck Entz and @DCDuring, experts on taxonomy. 70.172.194.25 08:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- I would add a request for Translingual Eudicots as well, with the same reasoning.
Indonesian. Sent from RFD. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 10:35, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- See also Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English#kakilima beratap (2). I am not sure about the orthographies of various terms, but Indonesian kaki lima, literally “five foot”, short for ”five-foot way”, can by itself mean the walkway under an arcade, usually housing shops. It is to be expected then that such an arcade is called a kaki-lima beratap. At least one dictionary lists the term;[10] and the term is used here. The issue seems to be more whether this is not a good old SOP. (Aside: we also have an entry kaki-lima, whose status seems dubious to me, just like “the shop on the corner” may often be a convenience store, but does not necessarily mean that.) --Lambiam 22:22, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Is the letter "A" used alone (in any language, since this is Translingual) to refer to a paper size system? I would make a claim that uses like "the A paper size system" do not support the inclusion of this term. Please argue with me on this though! This, that and the other (talk) 10:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Attributively at least: A paper sizes. Fay Freak (talk) 09:54, 12 February 2021 (UTC) Still a strange thing to include in such a place in a dictionary. Fay Freak (talk) 09:59, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- An academic grade lower than A+ but greater than A-.
I dispute that this is used translingually, even if the definition were to be worded more generally. I contend that letter grades are only or largely confined in the Anglosphere. This, that and the other (talk) 10:46, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Some (if not many) Dutch primary schools use letter grades (E-D-C-B-A) interchangeably with digits (1-10). Cito also uses these. Thadh (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think few primary schools actually use those as the actual marks rather than as a mere secondary encoding of onvoldoende, voldoende, goed, etc. In any case, its marginal use by Dutch schools seems not much of an argument for its translingual status.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think few primary schools actually use those as the actual marks rather than as a mere secondary encoding of onvoldoende, voldoende, goed, etc. In any case, its marginal use by Dutch schools seems not much of an argument for its translingual status.
- It is kind of likely that in some Pacific islands and African colonies this system has been taken over, without school education taking place in English. Fay Freak (talk) 09:56, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Lingo Bingo Dingo This is something I've noticed actually. Is "Translingual" supposed to be a catch-all for a lot of languages or all languages? Because I've seen it heavily lean Western European, especially with punctuation marks, while many other languages would not use them as such. It's truly confusing to me. AG202 (talk) 02:28, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- @AG202 I've always treated it as "a lot of languages" - "all languages" would be a literally impossible bar to pass. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 19:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Turkish. Literally "owl fly". The definition is inconsistent, assigning the supposed insect to two distinct orders (Neuroptera and Diptera). I was unable to verify either meaning. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Vox Sciurorum: People are saying this on the internet, example 1 and example 2, with pictures and descriptions leaving now doubt about the identification. The uses postdate the 2009 creation of the Wiktionary entry though, and there is a possibility people on the internet coined it after the English. On the other hand I do not believe the original editor had a need to make up names for all flies and he had to take the names from somewhere, though his name be literally Sinek. A Turkish Wikipedia article on the animal, a frequent source of such coinages, never existed. Is it possible that entomology works a badly indexed? In particular I am skeptical about Google Books providing even a sketch of the Near East’s zoology. By now it is proven Google systematically skews the portrayal of science in favour of the American hegemon.
- A question has always to be posited: What else is it called? We have learned that even the caperberry in Finnish struggles with the CFI. And we are repulsed by an untrue statement in a translation table that there is no name at all in so bulky a language, for so unexotic an organism. Fay Freak (talk) 21:22, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: I have no problem holding Turkish to lesser standards than English. (By precedent, if not rule, as nominator I can withdraw the RFV if I am satisfied and nobody objects.) I am not counting durable citations on my fingers, but looking for sufficient evidence of use. For some other derivatives of sinek I found that evidence. For the ones I nominated, I did not. There are many species that in ordinary English are simply "bugs". And there are people trying to prescribe names contrary to common use. Somebody who lives in Turkey and has taken an entomology course there will have much better insight than I could get reading literature from 8,000 km away. (Perhaps I will look up some entomologists and email them about common names.) The dominance of English and German in entomological literature gives those languages an advantage in popularizing vocabulary, whatever Google's prejudices may be. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
- I’m a bit unclear as to what the issue of relative standards is. Compare English sandfly, used for various fly species in different families. There is no lack of mentions that establish the several identifications with taxonomic groups, but in uses the specific identification is generally impossible to establish. Even if someone files a durably archived report of having been bitten by a sandfly in New Zealand, how can we be sure it was not a biting midge, with the reporter being a visiting Australian? Do we truly hold English common names for critters to the high standards of CFI? --Lambiam 14:28, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- This definitely a problem (to figure out which sense of a word is meant, in many cases), compare klaviform, which has been RFC-tagged as needing to have separate definitions matching claviform, but ... good luck figuring out which of the meanings is meant from any particular use! - -sche (discuss) 03:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- No, it was always conceit to require that not only occurrences convey meaning, but they also convey all of the meaning and prove it alone. The nature of a use is that it does not convey meaning. Paradox, paradox, but evident; uses at large presuppose meanings having already been conveyed, though it occur that they add to them by their impressions. People employ the metric system without outlining what a metre or a gramme is. The more exact you want to be the more you have to look around. Paradox in discerning language, a holistic scheme!
- Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Conveying meaning is only superficially an essential distinction and inherently irrational, it is a private language of analytic philosophers and you play a language game pretending that you conform, instead of owning it is fashionable nonsense. Fay Freak (talk) 05:33, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- I’m a bit unclear as to what the issue of relative standards is. Compare English sandfly, used for various fly species in different families. There is no lack of mentions that establish the several identifications with taxonomic groups, but in uses the specific identification is generally impossible to establish. Even if someone files a durably archived report of having been bitten by a sandfly in New Zealand, how can we be sure it was not a biting midge, with the reporter being a visiting Australian? Do we truly hold English common names for critters to the high standards of CFI? --Lambiam 14:28, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: I have no problem holding Turkish to lesser standards than English. (By precedent, if not rule, as nominator I can withdraw the RFV if I am satisfied and nobody objects.) I am not counting durable citations on my fingers, but looking for sufficient evidence of use. For some other derivatives of sinek I found that evidence. For the ones I nominated, I did not. There are many species that in ordinary English are simply "bugs". And there are people trying to prescribe names contrary to common use. Somebody who lives in Turkey and has taken an entomology course there will have much better insight than I could get reading literature from 8,000 km away. (Perhaps I will look up some entomologists and email them about common names.) The dominance of English and German in entomological literature gives those languages an advantage in popularizing vocabulary, whatever Google's prejudices may be. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Turkish. Rfv-sense stable fly. Might also be spelled karasinek. The house fly sense is well attested. The stable fly is generally similar in appearance (except it bites) so you could easily have one word meaning both. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:02, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
- In English the designation black fly is used for various flies in the genus Simulium. Likewise, in Turkish the term kara sinek may be used for them, like here and here (as a search key) for the genus, and here for S. erythrocephalum. After all, they are flies, and they are black. The same cannot be said of the stable fly (Stomoxys calcitrans). Both are blood suckers, and they are often mentioned together as being biting flies, so I wonder if there has been some generic confusion. --Lambiam 00:15, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- The name is used in English for the whole family Simuliidae. Simulium is the most common genus. When I looked I didn't have the sense that kara sinek in this sense was citable or common. It was used, but not often. It may meet CFI or be in regular use by entomologists. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 11:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Stomoxys calcitrans is rather black in this photograph, though, so this may simply occur in a description as a SOP. --Lambiam 00:27, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would not be surprised to learn that Turkish kara sinek is used like English house fly, by ordinary people to refer to large flies found around the house and in formal writing to refer to Musca domestica. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 11:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Of course. Rather in general, in informal contexts people commonly use terms that do not respect recognized taxonomical categories. I’ve heard bit (“louse”) used to mean “flea”, and fare (“mouse“) for “rat”. The use is even looser for fish names and botanical names, which I think is the case for many other languages too. The use in written texts generally has a better correspondence, though, between the intended sense and that of taxonomists. --Lambiam 23:10, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- I would not be surprised to learn that Turkish kara sinek is used like English house fly, by ordinary people to refer to large flies found around the house and in formal writing to refer to Musca domestica. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 11:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Serbo-Croatian entries by Lumbardhia
[edit]See Talk:štaljba, Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English#štaljba. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 13:41, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Surjection:
- bàrzilo is already said in the first volume of
{{R:sh:RJA}}to occur only in Vuk Karadžić’s dictionary, it is an occasional formation along with barzeša, barzica, barzulijca, and should be deleted. I have added the better-used base adjectives to bardhë which should suffice. - brdoka as well as bardoka have allegedly been used in Kosovo, but it is too specific to be found.
- kàluša is used here and there defined: Kaluša redovno ima veću pegu i na telu, najčešće na grudima, na trbuhu, na sapima u blizini korena repa, tamne noge do kolena i skočnog zgloba ili su noge poprskane pegama kao i kod ostalih domaćih pramenki. The bibliographic information and digitization status of these works is insufficient for me to format quotes.
- lakora I do not find at all.
- kȃrpa are hard to search but are attested, given quotes in Речник српскохрватског књижевног и народног језика, in the ends, where it is continued in better known Macedonian карпа (karpa) and Bulgarian карпа (karpa). The etymology is more doubtful than its existence.
- strȕga has many attestations, e.g. quoted in
{{R:sh:RSHKJ|page=37a|volume=6}}. - diza, dročka, hira are too hard, specific cheese manufacturing terms it seems, with much homonymy, so one can’t try too much. tȇša I see related by mentions in Vanja Stanišić’s book Serbo-Albanian language relations page 106 as a rather recent word but used by Albanians only in few places, so it is not worth it.
- drȅteza only in works discussing Albanian words in Serbo-Croatian, and again from Vuk Karadžić.
- šȍtka was the normal word for duck in some spots of Serbia, a whole isogloss but rural enough to escape the purview of the written language, however surely attested; I have added one quote from a Croatian who wrote a lot and probably picked it up there.
- frȗs is mostly known from Vuk Karadžić’s dictionary, where it is given as Montenegrin – from a time when Montenegro was a bunch of mountain shepherds barely anybody of whom could read and write; however you find фрус in brackets after добрац (“measles”), which looks like some Serbian doctors knew that it is called so in Montenegro. With the advancement of medicine, a lot of disease names have vanished, as is a common experience if you deal with them in any language. Evidently, the word must be labelled “obsolete”.
- So, after four hours for this list, I am positive about the nature of šȍtka, kàluša, kȃrpa, frȗs, strȕga, the rest falls through the sieve for this decade. Fay Freak (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Here, on the other hand, I repeat my opinion of one year ago: I don’t think Lumbardhia made anything up, or intended to do so—while Surjection’s general suspicion of agents of the Albanian cause introducing fakes seems to be true, as there must be the liars somewhere and Albanians are known as deranged due to their recent history—, but these words are all traceable to dialectological literature, and to the extent I have outlined that one day one year ago the words are found in literature. Fay Freak (talk) 04:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- After many years, deleted the ones not considered likely. The others still need quotes. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 08:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
March 2021
[edit]Rfv-sense: Dutch, "An East Indian weight for silver and gold." I can't find evidence for an Indian customary weight with a name anything like this. The etymology claims it's "From Sanskrit वल्ले (valle), called after the resilient seeds of Abrus precatorius." However, I can't find any such Sanskrit word; also, the unit of weight named after Abrus precatorius is the ratti (Ratti), apparently also called w:nl:Ratti in Dutch. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I added a quote, earliest reference mentioned in http://wnt.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M073176&lemmodern=val&domein=0&conc=true (seems to be source of etymology). The notes to the English language edition of the cited work mention that "at present" in Gujarat 1 val = 3 rati : 16 val = 1 gadiana : 2 gadiana = 1 tola https://books.google.com/books?id=w1rbCmQOs4YC&lpg=PA329&ots=LoiWGCdwGi&dq=%22pecha%22%20paisa%20india&hl=nl&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false --Appolodorus1 (talk) 21:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- Request withdrawn. I know that only one cite technically isn't enough for a WDL, but considering it's an obsolete sense, the one cite is good enough for me. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Arabic. --37.42.165.198 18:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: Arabic Wikisource has a work by Ibn Khalawayh called "Kitāb laysa fī kalām al-ʻArab", s:ar:ليس في كلام العرب, and a naive search brought it up. Can you check whether this word is used there in the right sense? If not, do you know where else to find attestation for this? 70.172.194.25 05:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it is given an example of maṣdar with a quote also found in Lisān al-ʕarab the further context of which I see not. Too bad we only know it as a kind of a copypasta. Fay Freak (talk) 06:37, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- While Modern Standard Arabic is a well-documented language and therefore subject to stricter attestation rules, according to my understanding Classical Arabic is exempt. So, under the more lenient standards, this could probably pass, but that would require someone to actually add the quote from Ibn Manzur and/or Ibn Khalawayh to the entry, and maybe to label the term as classical/archaic/rare if applicable. 70.172.194.25 08:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it is given an example of maṣdar with a quote also found in Lisān al-ʕarab the further context of which I see not. Too bad we only know it as a kind of a copypasta. Fay Freak (talk) 06:37, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
abaissement, abaissere (Norwegian)
[edit]- Moved from RFD.Gamren (talk) 17:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't think these are actual words used in Norwegian, there are no hits for either one in the Bokmål Dictionary nor the Norwegian Academy dictionary, also nothing on Wikipedia or the Norwegian Lexicon. Google searches didn't give me anything for a Norwegian use of these words, only French. Supevan (talk) 16:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- It mostly seems to occur in the phrase abaissement du niveau mental.__Gamren (talk) 19:29, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Arabic. — Fenakhay (تكلم معاي · ما ساهمت) 08:17, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Fenakhay [11], Steingass and Hava have this, and Lane apparently cites "صَخَمَتْهُ الشَّمْسُ" (the sun burnt him) to al-Qamus al-Muhit. 70.172.194.25 07:17, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
April 2021
[edit]Dutch. Another unattested diminutive. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- This one is attestable, but only in a few tweets, which are not durably archived. 70.172.194.25 05:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
And another one. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:31, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- I can confirm that this seems unattestable, even online. 70.172.194.25 05:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
And another one. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:33, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- I can confirm that this seems unattestable, even online. 70.172.194.25 05:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi LBD, as there's no Wiktionary policy on regular diminutives in Dutch (should we always include them as they help users form the diminutive, or should we only include them if they have three durable attestations?). I would honestly not pursue a verification & deletion campaign. I don't see any value in this at all, and it may siphon time away from real things to improve. Morgengave (talk) 13:26, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- WT:CFI -> 3 cites. Diminutives aren't even inflected forms, but derived terms. Also, for dubious inflected forms there could be RFVs as well, e.g. for plurals when the term is (thought to be) singular only, uncountable. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:de:371c:3d29:91e2:2f43:c6bd:d627 (talk) at 15:19, 3 April 2021.
- The point is that any Dutch user at any time can apply such a regular diminutive - usage would be considered correct and unremarkable. These are not dubious grammatically - there are just so many nouns in Dutch that not for every noun, you can find durable attestations of their regular diminutives. This also means that at any moment in time such an unattested diminutive can "appear" in newspapers and books, making these deletions likely temporary anyway. This is not the case for uncountable words - a plural here would just sound wrong. I won't oppose the verification-to-deletion process of these diminutives btw; I just find it a waste of time. Morgengave (talk) 16:15, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Morgengave What I like about the English Wiktionary is that it is a very empirical dictionary. Removing entries for unattested diminutives would make our Dutch coverage more empirical and prevent shitty mirror sites from spreading misinformation. Moreover, the view that unattested diminutives qualify for inclusion is not uncontroversial outside the Dutch-language editor base, though I do not presume to know what the majority view is. I can agree to displaying unattested diminutives, but woudl rather not agree to linking to them.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)- I respect that pov. I never create unattested diminutives myself, and generally (following our chat) even follow your way of working of not even displaying unattested diminutives in new lemmas (so that no red link appears). But deleting existing entries just seems pointless. These diminutives are not wrong in any shape or form. Morgengave (talk) 16:15, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo, why aren’t diminutives inflected forms? MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 08:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Dutch. Unattested, seemingly erroneous diminutive of a superseded spelling. The Woordenlijst gives entrecoteje as the accepted spelling and although that one is also a rare beast, it may actually be durably citable. Anyway, that would suggest that the diminutive of the superseded spelling is entrecôteje. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Isn't it entrecootje? Durable attestations: [12], [13], [14] Morgengave (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Morgengave That is not on the Woordenlijst Nederlandse Taal, so it is probably superseded, but I certainly do not mind its inclusion if it is durably attested.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)- @Lingo Bingo Dingo Well, the attestations seem durably archived - and recent (2016, 2021) so likely only "superseded" in the eyes of linguists. Using a Google Search, that spelling also seems more frequent than "entrecotetje" which sounds a bit awkward and stilted. I can't imagine a native speaker (at least in Belgium) seriously use it in speech. It does raise an interesting point, which the Woordenlijst may not cover, namely that dimunitives that lead to a "-tetje"-ending (if a schwa) do rarely occur and are (in Belgium) often shortened in a regular way to a "-tje"-ending (at least this seems to be the case in Belgium). Besides entrecootje, I am immediately thinking of gedeeltje (from gedeelte), gemeentje (from gemeente), brochetje (from brochette; this diminutive recognized by the VRT: [15]), camionnetje (from camionette; the stress differs and hence not pronounced the same as camionnetje, the diminutive of camion), and groentje (from groente). Morgengave (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Morgengave "Superseded" and "unofficial" (perhaps more appropriate here) only makes a claim about the official status of a form, it does not suggest that it is out of use. I should also clarify that entrecotetje is not the official spelling either; the prescribed form is entrecoteje, which looks awkward but whose pronunciation is equivalent to entrecootje... or so I presume. I agree that sequences with <tetje> containing two schwas are awkward to pronounce.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Morgengave "Superseded" and "unofficial" (perhaps more appropriate here) only makes a claim about the official status of a form, it does not suggest that it is out of use. I should also clarify that entrecotetje is not the official spelling either; the prescribed form is entrecoteje, which looks awkward but whose pronunciation is equivalent to entrecootje... or so I presume. I agree that sequences with <tetje> containing two schwas are awkward to pronounce.
- @Lingo Bingo Dingo Well, the attestations seem durably archived - and recent (2016, 2021) so likely only "superseded" in the eyes of linguists. Using a Google Search, that spelling also seems more frequent than "entrecotetje" which sounds a bit awkward and stilted. I can't imagine a native speaker (at least in Belgium) seriously use it in speech. It does raise an interesting point, which the Woordenlijst may not cover, namely that dimunitives that lead to a "-tetje"-ending (if a schwa) do rarely occur and are (in Belgium) often shortened in a regular way to a "-tje"-ending (at least this seems to be the case in Belgium). Besides entrecootje, I am immediately thinking of gedeeltje (from gedeelte), gemeentje (from gemeente), brochetje (from brochette; this diminutive recognized by the VRT: [15]), camionnetje (from camionette; the stress differs and hence not pronounced the same as camionnetje, the diminutive of camion), and groentje (from groente). Morgengave (talk) 17:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Morgengave That is not on the Woordenlijst Nederlandse Taal, so it is probably superseded, but I certainly do not mind its inclusion if it is durably attested.
Arabic. Rfv-sense: "(collective) the typically sweet- or (less commonly) sour-tasting produce of plants, fruit, fruitage" --5.245.69.225 02:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Searching on Google appears to yield many results of modern-style writings (that is, ones that might be dismissed as solecisms). There are, nevertheless, a few medieval-style results like this one that seem to capture the meaning of "fleshy plant products". Modern Standard Arabic occurrences though are far more frequent in this sense. Roger.M.Williams (talk) 19:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Roger.M.Williams: Fix your link! I abstain from this issue, dealing with so microscopic a sense distinction. If you see such senses then it is perhaps you who could … ehm add at least one clear quotation. If it’s from the web maybe an occurrence by an image makes it clear. Fay Freak (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
May 2021
[edit]Norwegian Bokmål. Does anyone actually use this word in writing? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:17, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think these are two examples: [16], [17]. BTW, I don’t see how this demonstrates a difficulty with the understandability of Danish; to me it seems an issue of lack of knowledge of the specialized vocabulary for hardware items. If I was working as a newbie clerk in an English hardware store, and a customer asked for something I’d never heard of, such as a spiglet, I too might not understand they were using a made-up term. — This unsigned comment was added by Lambiam (talk • contribs) at 09:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC).
Does anyone actually use this word in writing?
Yes. I've provided three citations. ArcticSeeress (talk) 18:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Dutch, "a peatland repurposed as a pasture", uncommon indeed. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Mnemosientje, Morgengave, Thadh, 030BeterHe, Lambiam Do you have any insights on this?
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)- This is said to come from etten (WNT, also in MNW) + veen; see entry etveen in De Zaansche volkstaal. --Lambiam 20:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo, Lambiam I managed to find one clear use. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- This use supports the notion it is a Zaans term. --Lambiam 13:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does seem that way. Do you think we can use the citations from De Zaansche volkstaal? Because I don't think we're going to find those sources online and I'm not going to go to the Assendelft archives. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
June 2021
[edit]Dutch, RFV-sense of "resistance, opposition, defense". Is this citable outside in het geweer komen? The WNT does not have a separate sense "resistance, etc." ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
- Earlier the lemma had a sense “(absolute use only: het geweer) A defensive attitude or position”, which I removed in December 2020 by this edit. --Lambiam 00:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Old High German: “female genitalia”. Tagged by 88.64.225.1 on 26 June 2021, not listed:
- “It's possible, but the form would obviously be irregular in High German. As of now it is not given in the Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch. The source is not scientific and it doesn't strictly say that the word is High German. It only says that it was found by a contributor to the Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch, which doesn't rule out that the gloss may be Old Saxon or Low Franconian.”
J3133 (talk) 16:29, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the word is given as an example of a German word and attestation in an Old Dutch work is particularly unlikely, so the real problems are the apparently irregular form and the fact that this is a rather unusual source.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:56, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
- Source has:
- "Zahlreiche deutsche Wörter aus dem achten bis zehnten Jahrhundert sind nur als Anmerkungen und Übersetzungshilfen am Rand oder zwischen den Zeilen lateinischer Texte überliefert. Tausende dieser sogenannten Glossen wurden erst in letzter Zeit entdeckt und untersucht. Zu ihnen gehört „cunta“, eine vulgäre Bezeichnung für das weibliche Sexualorgan, die als Übersetzung von „pudenda“ am Rand einer kirchengeschichtlichen Handschrift des neunten Jahrhunderts auftauchte."
- It's only saying "German", and doesn't clarify whether it's "High German" or "High and Low German". And if it's the latter, it's open whether Low German would be "Old Saxon" or "Low Franconian and Old Saxon". Also as it's only a gloss: If there are no other glosses near to it with clear Low or High German features, who knows what language the gloss is in? --16:04, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
July 2021
[edit]Dutch. Typically written as two words, it turned out harder to cite than I thought it would be. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:45, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- [18], [19], [20], [21], [22] (some of these might not be durably archived) Thadh (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Scottish Gaelic. Per a comment on the talk page. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- 2003, Colin Mark, The Gaelic-English Dictionary: "apragod, -oid, -an nm [noun masculine] apricot"
- As it isn't a WT:WDL (maybe 'member
{{LDL}}), this could be sufficient for attesting. (It's also older than the WT entry, hence not stupiditly copied from bere.) - Additionally:
- 1883, John Cameron, Gaelic names of plants (Scottish and Irish): "P. [Prunus] armeniaca—Apricot. Gaelic: apricoc. Welsh: bricyllen."
- 1825, R. A. Armstrong, A Gaelic dictionary, in two parts: "Apricot, s. [substantive?] Seorsa meas." [= kind of fruit?]
- 1780, William Shaw, A Galic and English Dictionary. Containing All the Words in the Scotch and Irish Dialects of the Celtic, that ...: "Crann-apricoc. Apricot-tree." & "Apricot. Seorsa meas, ubhal apricoit." [= kind of fruit, apricot apple?]
- There seem to be several spellings around: both Am Faclair Beag and LearnGaelic.scot give both apracot and apricoc, while Scottish Gaelic Wikipedia (which doesn't count as durably archived, I know) gives both abragod and apragot. Three paper dictionaries on my bookshelf all give only apracot. Overall, it looks like most modern dictionaries prefer the spelling apracot, so I'd suggest making that the primary entry and making apragod an
{{alt form of}}. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Attested with Colin Mark 2003 as Scots is a WT:WDL, so RFV-passed, but changed in diff into a RFD. --05:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
RFV-sense of "television network"; I only know this in either the specific sense "television channel" and the general sense "network", especially used for the Internet. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Rfv-sense Net meaning tv network in not in my VanDale Nederlands Als Tweede Taal (NT2) dictionary.
BUT in both the Netherlands and Belgium there are nationwide tv channels so tv networks are not necessary and do not really exist.
However the American sense of a tv network is sort of applicable to these nationwide channels. — This unsigned comment was added by 72.83.123.223 (talk) at 01:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC).
August 2021
[edit]Dutch. Tagged by User:Lingo Bingo Dingo, but not listed — surjection ⟨??⟩ 08:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- DWB 2 mentions: "mnl. nnl. erbieden". (BTW: Luxemburgish, Ripuarian MHG.) --19:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- WNT has two citations of the verbal noun erbieding from 1642, marking the verb as verouderd (“obsolete”). --Lambiam 08:58, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I was probably curious whether this could be cited as Dutch or as Dutch Low Saxon/Low German, the latter of which corresponds to the local lects in the eastern Netherlands. The er- prefix is also very rare and unproductive in actual Dutch.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Norwegian Bokmål. A word of dubious existence, not listed in any major dictionary, and I was unable to find much about it on Google. Supevan (talk) Supevan (talk) 11:44, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- I've added one. There's another one that talks about an ampoule full of "soft fecal matter" (bløde fekalia).__Gamren (talk) 13:44, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- I have provided two more citations. It now fulfills the attestation criteria. ArcticSeeress (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
This is Round 2 relating to History assassination fraud problemတလိုင်း တႆးလႅင်.
I am challenging the meaning 'Tai Laing'; the previous discussion established the meaning as 'Mon', but we are now facing an edit war over the meaning. It's conceivable that the word has had both meanings, but I see no evidence of the meaning 'Tai Laing' being used in Burmese. Moreover, 'Tai Laing' shows every appearance of being an autonym, though I don't know how seriously we should take the claim that they are a branch of the Tai Daeng of Vietnam. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see that the previous discussion established that; the only evidence pasted directly into the thread (by someone who didn't sign their post) was Judson's Burmese-English Dictionary, which has "တလိုင်း, n. a Peguan Talaing, [..]" (a dictionary being enough for a LDL). I've tagged the "Mon" sense with RFV, too, so both senses are now tagged: let there be citations/references added to the entry for whichever one(s) are attested (I added the reference for the Tai Laing sense). - -sche (discuss) 02:21, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep 'Mon'. Actually, you added the well-nigh clinching reference for the 'Mon' sense! I can't see which bit of Talaing you didn't understand. I've used the Judson template to link to a later edition of the dictionary. I'm not sure whether to add a mention to complete the definition of Talaing. — This unsigned comment was added by RichardW57 (talk • contribs) at 07:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC).
- It may be worth noting that the Talaing live south of Shan State while the Tai Laing live north of Shan State, in Kachin and points west. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:37, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Re "I can't see which bit of Talaing you didn't understand": well, as I don't like to time travel, at the time I commented I c0uldn't see any part of that entry that you created several hours after my comment, but I realize now the Tai Laing and Talaing are distinct. - -sche (discuss) 19:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- @RichardW57,Did you know that Ta Laingတလိုင်း is a hate speech invented by the extremist Dog Burmese people? the fact that you are trying to express the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း, coined by the extremist Dog Burmese people, is a human animal that encourages extremism, if you are trying to express the Ta Laingတလိုင်း term coined by extremist Burmese people, it means that you are also trying to attack the Mon people. I did not believe that you would become an educated animal, if you are a real human being, you will never ruin someone else's history. The fact that you are now fabricating the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း as Mon just shows that you are an extremist terrorist, do you have strong evidence that the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is Mon? when the Mon people object that the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is not Mon, you are trying to be Mon is an extremist act, have you received a vote from Mon people to describe the term Ta Laing as Mon? Ta Laingတလိုင်း is an objection because is not Mon. Do not show propaganda books published by extremist Dog Burmese people as evidence of Ta Laing terminology, there are many Ta Laingတလိုင်း related propaganda books published by extremist Dog Burmese people. Those who believe in the propaganda Ta Laing book released by extremist Burmese people are ignorant animals, you should collect votes from Mon people to describe the term Ta Laing as Mon, now you are accusing Ta Laingတလိုင်း of being Mon, this is very rude, if you are a real polite person, you should describe Mon as Mon, you are very rude when you now describe Ta Laingတလိုင်း as Mon.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 12:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- The issue of this term being offensive and another term being preferred seems like something to resolve by adding the label "(offensive)" or "(now offensive)"; also, we should expand the etymology to note the folk etymological interpretation which has led to it being considered offensive. But apparently the sense does exist (in the past) after all. - -sche (discuss) 19:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be surprised if the term still existed as a way for Burmans to bait Mons. According to WP it still exists in a technical sense for poetry. --RichardW57 (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- The issue of this term being offensive and another term being preferred seems like something to resolve by adding the label "(offensive)" or "(now offensive)"; also, we should expand the etymology to note the folk etymological interpretation which has led to it being considered offensive. But apparently the sense does exist (in the past) after all. - -sche (discuss) 19:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- @RichardW57,Did you know that Ta Laingတလိုင်း is a hate speech invented by the extremist Dog Burmese people? the fact that you are trying to express the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း, coined by the extremist Dog Burmese people, is a human animal that encourages extremism, if you are trying to express the Ta Laingတလိုင်း term coined by extremist Burmese people, it means that you are also trying to attack the Mon people. I did not believe that you would become an educated animal, if you are a real human being, you will never ruin someone else's history. The fact that you are now fabricating the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း as Mon just shows that you are an extremist terrorist, do you have strong evidence that the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is Mon? when the Mon people object that the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is not Mon, you are trying to be Mon is an extremist act, have you received a vote from Mon people to describe the term Ta Laing as Mon? Ta Laingတလိုင်း is an objection because is not Mon. Do not show propaganda books published by extremist Dog Burmese people as evidence of Ta Laing terminology, there are many Ta Laingတလိုင်း related propaganda books published by extremist Dog Burmese people. Those who believe in the propaganda Ta Laing book released by extremist Burmese people are ignorant animals, you should collect votes from Mon people to describe the term Ta Laing as Mon, now you are accusing Ta Laingတလိုင်း of being Mon, this is very rude, if you are a real polite person, you should describe Mon as Mon, you are very rude when you now describe Ta Laingတလိုင်း as Mon.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 12:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Shans, not just Tai Laing
[edit]Dr Intobesa has given a different account in User_talk:RichardW57#Stop trying to lie တလိုင်း. I think we've been misled because of the development of the Burmese digraph "ui". It seems that the Shans and the Mons became allies in a revolt in 1740 and consequently came to share an appellation. If this story is correct (I've verified none of it as yet), then we can even merge the two 'etymologies'. We still need verification for the initial and linking senses of the word under the new explanation, and the 'synonyms' for Etymology 2 need to be checked. --RichardW57 (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- @RichardW57, Tai Laing is the spelling of ထႆးလႅင်, there are two types of spelling of Shan people. The Shan people use the spelling of the Shan language vocabulary used in English in two different spelling words, ၽႃႇသႃႇတႆးယႂ်ႇ or ၽႃႇသႃႇထႆးယႂ်ႇ, the spelling of the word ၽႃႇသႃႇတႆး was used by the Shan people to mean the whole Shan language. The Burmese people call Thai and Shan is ရှမ်းShan, but in the literature they are divided into Shan, Thai. The Mon people call Thai, Shan, Laos is Siemသေံ, but in the literature they are divided into သေံSiem, သေံဇၞော်Siem Hanok, သေံလဴSiem Lav, see definition below.
- (သေံSiem) definition=Thai
- (သေံဇၞော်Siem Hanok) definition=Shan/ the spelling word Siem Hanok is the same as the Thai spelling ไทยใหญ่Thai Yai.
- (သေံလဴSiem Lav) definition=Laos
The word Tai Laing is probably the pronunciation of ထႆးလႅင်, so it could be Ta Laingတလိုင်း, see also the following explanation for words with the same spelling pronunciation in English, Shan, Thai, Burmese.
- (Shan=ထႆး) (English=Thai) (Thai=ไทย) definition=The (ထႆးThaiไทย) spelling shown here is the same for all pronunciations.
- (Shan=လႅင်) (English=Laing) (Burmese=လိုင်း/example=Ta Laingတလိုင်း) definition=The (လႅင်Laingလိုင်း) spelling shown here is the same for all pronunciations, Shan people can use two spellings ထႆး or တႆး. example=Shan languages can be said to use this ထႆးလႅင် or တႆးလႅင် term, consider the current spelling usage of Shan people in Burma and Shan people in Thailand.
- Shan=(ၽႃႇသႃႇထႆးယႂ်ႇ) English=(Thai Yai language) Thai=(ภาษาไทยใหญ่) definition=(Shan language) explanation=These are the spelling words used by the Shan people in Thailand.
- Shan=(ၽႃႇသႃႇတႆးယႂ်ႇ) English=(Tai Yai language) Thai=(ภาษาไทใหญ่) definition=(Shan language) explanation=These are the spelling words used by the Shan people in Burma. I am a qualified writer in literature, learn the vocabulary spelling that I have explained in detail, I would also like to warn you to avoid accusations that hurt a certain ethnic group on Wiktionary. The Wiktionary is a dictionary website, so only dictionary terms are appropriate, it is totally inappropriate to write accusations that hurt an ethnic group on Wiktionary, thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 10:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- And you should be aware of the Shan word တႆးလူင် (I hope I've spelt it right) used for the main Shan group. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding it in Thai or Shan script. The literal Thai transliteration would be ไทยหลวง; the form I encounter in English is 'Tai Long' and I can even find a section of the Tai-Lōng Tipiṭaka. — This unsigned comment was added by RichardW57 (talk • contribs) at 20:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC).
- @RichardW57, The term Tai Laing has nothing to do with the term တႆးလူင် and ไทยหลวง, the correct pronunciation of the word ไทยหลวง is Thai Luang. Similarly, the correct pronunciation of the word တႆးလူင် is Tai Luang, the definitions of တႆးလူင်Tai Luang and ไทยหลวงThai Luang are different, check out the following definitions of တႆးလူင်Tai Luang and ไทยหลวงThai Luang.
- (Thai=ไทยหลวง pronunciation=Thai Luang) (Burmese=ထိုင်းတော်ဝင် pronunciation=Thai Taw Win) (English=Thai royal) (other spelling words=Thai=ราชวงศ์ไทย/Burmese=ထိုင်းတော်ဝင်မိသားစု/English=Thai royal family) (definition=The term ไทยหลวงThai Luang and Rachngs Thaiราชวงศ์ไทย means members of the royal family of the King of Thailand.)
- (Shan=တႆးလူင် pronunciation=Tai Luang) (Burmese=ရှမ်းစော်ဘွား pronunciation=Shan Saw Bwar) (English=Shan royal) (another spelling word in Burmese language=Shan Nang Dwinရှမ်းနန်းတွင်း or ရှမ်းနန်းတွင်းသူShan Nang Dwin Thu) (definition=The term တႆးလူင်Tai Luang refers to the ancient Shan King Family.
The words တႆးလူင်Tai Luang and ไทยหลวงThai Luang have similar pronunciations but different meanings, let me give you another example, only ထႆးလူင် should be used for ไทยหลวงThai Luang spelling, I hope you understand what I have just explained.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 17:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- There's a discussion of the naming of Tai groups at [23]. As I would hope you know, Shan တႆး (tái), Thai ไทย (tai) and ไท (tai), English Thai, Tai and pinyin Dai are all essentially the same word, but to varying degrees specialised to designate specific groups of speakers. In some Tai dialects (I can confirm it for Northern Thai, i.e. the dialect of Lanna), the cognate of Thai หลวง (lǔuang, “high”) has replaced the cognate of Thai ใหญ่ (yài, “big”) as the usual word for 'big'. As the article says on p27 from journal, northern Shans "เรียก พวกตนเองว่า ไทใหญ่ (Tai Yai) หรือ ไทโหลง (Tai Long) โหลงเป็นคําเดียวกับคําว่าหลวง" (call themselves 'Tai Yai' or 'Tai Long'. 'Long' (โหลง is the word corresponding to the [Thai] word หลวง.)
- It would seem that Thais use ไทโหลง because of the royal meaning of ไทหลวง.
- One can also find the Shans' 'Tai Long' autonym spelt ไตโหลง or ไต๊โหลง in Thai. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- What is the "Tai Longတႆးလုင်" you referred to on my user page? --RichardW57 (talk) 22:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- @RichardW57, တႆးလုင်Tai Long is the term တႆးလူင်Tai Luang, the Tai Longတႆးလုင် is a spelling word used by the Khamti people, The တႆးလူင်Tai Luang is a spelling word used by the Shan people.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 06:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
September 2021
[edit]Lithuanian. It is in LKZ etc., but I haven't been able to find any citations for actual usage yet, just the Latvian cognate. 70.175.192.217 17:47, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- Aren’t there two quotes in LKZ? They are from the 19th century notably, and back in the day the current Lithuanian orthography was not invented, one rather wrote it like Polish or German, additionally writing Lithuanian in Latin was altogether forbidden in the Russian Empire, so one should seek different spellings. Where are those corpora? Even for Latvian I do not find Cyrillic spellings. Fay Freak (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, it does have two citations on LKŽ, but they don't even give the specific text as far as I can tell, just the author (although the texts certainly are still archived, somewhere). Is that enough to support its inclusion? I'm not trying to be overly deletionist, I'm just not sure this is a word that's really used. Maybe it should be marked as rare/archaic. As far as the Cyrillic forms, I guess it would be "атпакал", which seems to yield Cyrillicizations of Latvian on Google (but I didn't look hard). I'm not aware of any specific corpus for Lithuanian of that era (one might still exist). All I know are these ones listed by Vytauto Didžiojo Universitetas. 70.175.192.217 01:34, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- WT:CFI + WT:WDL require three quotes for Lithuanian. --Myrelia (talk) 09:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, it does have two citations on LKŽ, but they don't even give the specific text as far as I can tell, just the author (although the texts certainly are still archived, somewhere). Is that enough to support its inclusion? I'm not trying to be overly deletionist, I'm just not sure this is a word that's really used. Maybe it should be marked as rare/archaic. As far as the Cyrillic forms, I guess it would be "атпакал", which seems to yield Cyrillicizations of Latvian on Google (but I didn't look hard). I'm not aware of any specific corpus for Lithuanian of that era (one might still exist). All I know are these ones listed by Vytauto Didžiojo Universitetas. 70.175.192.217 01:34, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Iberian. Existence questioned by User:Arqueolingüística (diff) — surjection ⟨??⟩ 17:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Horchatamivida as the entry creator — surjection ⟨
??⟩ 17:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC) - Also note the other Iberian-critcial removals by the same user: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Arqueoling%C3%BC%C3%ADstica --Fytcha (talk) 17:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- A brief search found that people do believe there was a word beles (allophone meles) in Iberian. But "the community of editors" (WT:CFI) for the language should decide what references to use. Apparently Hugo Schuchardt had something to say in addition to the links on the Wikipedia page. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- According with Jürgen Untermann, this is a Kurzname known from the Turma Salluitana. He discusses (p. 597-307, Spanish) his use as a component of Vollnamen. According with Luís Silgo, Schuchardt proposed the relation of Aquitanian Belex and Iberian beleś with Basque belatx (currently spelled belatz "falcon"), and he points that the relation with beltz (“black”) is possible but unsure as a proper name. Vriullop (talk) 13:46, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- The question is if it's actually directly attested anywhere, such as in an inscription. If there's good reason to believe it existed, but it isn't actually attested in a text, it needs to be moved to Reconstruction: space. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:27, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- According with Jürgen Untermann, this is a Kurzname known from the Turma Salluitana. He discusses (p. 597-307, Spanish) his use as a component of Vollnamen. According with Luís Silgo, Schuchardt proposed the relation of Aquitanian Belex and Iberian beleś with Basque belatx (currently spelled belatz "falcon"), and he points that the relation with beltz (“black”) is possible but unsure as a proper name. Vriullop (talk) 13:46, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
October 2021
[edit]German. Never heard this one. As far as I know, promovieren is strictly related to a doctorate degree, but the linked sense is clearly more general/broad. Duden, pons, DWDS and de.wikt also don't make any mention of this sense. In case this RFV fails, also remove the translation in promote. --Fytcha (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- The transitive use occurs in the traditional formula conferring the degree, as seen here: „Auf Grund der von Sr. kaiserlichen und apostolisch königlichen Majestät der kön. ung. Tierärztlichen Hochschule allergnädigst gewährten Ermächtigung promoviere ich Sie im Namen des Professorenkörpers dieser Hochschule zum Doktor der veterinärmedizinischen Wissenschaften.“ [24] Here is a more recent, less formal use: ‚Schließen Sie Ihr Studium ab. Dann promoviere ich Sie.‘ [25] --Lambiam 15:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- In both quotes, the verb is used in its third sense: to confer a doctorate. Fytcha (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which was, I guess, the intended meaning of sense 1, the only transitive sense listed before you added this third sense. This supposition of mine is supported by the label (education). However, in the second use I cited, it is not fully clear that the promotion is to an academic degree. --Lambiam 09:28, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
- Oh you're right, it is a possibility that this was the intended meaning of sense 1 by the previous editor. To me they are so semantically different (the English explanations, that is) that I didn't think this was what was intended but I can see the connection now.
- The context makes it clear that the second use you've cited is also about an academic degree:
- Was hat Sie dazu bewogen, die Professorinnen-Laufbahn einzuschlagen? - Die Initialzündung dazu hat ein Professor gegeben. Der hat mir noch während des Studiums gesagt: ‚Schließen Sie Ihr Studium ab. Dann promoviere ich Sie.‘ ― What has motivated you to opt for the career path as a professor? - The first impetus was given to me by a professor. Still in my studies he told me: 'Finish your studies. Then I am going to promovieren you.' Fytcha (talk) 12:21, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
- But a professor does not have the power to confer a degree by themselves. The intention may have been, “I’ll be happy to be your PhD adviser”, presumably including an offer of a paid position as doctoral student. Used as such it would be – IMO – an abuse of terminology. --Lambiam 09:54, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which was, I guess, the intended meaning of sense 1, the only transitive sense listed before you added this third sense. This supposition of mine is supported by the label (education). However, in the second use I cited, it is not fully clear that the promotion is to an academic degree. --Lambiam 09:28, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
- In both quotes, the verb is used in its third sense: to confer a doctorate. Fytcha (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Obviously this was used in the 16–18th centuries just like in Latin, from which the doctorate senses are only particular applications. If you only look at de.Wiktionary, there are three old quotes. Maybe regard less what you have heard and more what was heard in former centuries? I find this usage very natural, however the gloss is wrong, I don’t know what they mean with “promote”, one shouldn’t gloss with just one word or anyone thinks of it what he wants to think of it, it’s actually no meaning at all but an “etymological equivalent”. Fay Freak (talk) 16:25, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- The sense that I have submitted to RfV is not labeled as (dated) or something comparable, neither is the translation provided in promote that I've made mention of. I find it absurd that you suggest me to regard more what was heard in former centuries when the discussion circles around the modern form of the language. Moreover, I don't think there was anything on my part to explain your gruff tone towards me. Fytcha (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Fytcha: You are right, as I said it is badly glossed and labelled, but editors often do not know if something is really not used now and only whether it has been used at all, so you should expect obsolete senses not labelled obsolete, but really, it is kind of easy pickings to conclude that back in the day – in the Baroque style Fruchtbringende Gesellschaft fought against – people just used any sense of the Latin word and then the doctorate sense developed, not just borrowed from Latin discourse. Fay Freak (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
- The sense that I have submitted to RfV is not labeled as (dated) or something comparable, neither is the translation provided in promote that I've made mention of. I find it absurd that you suggest me to regard more what was heard in former centuries when the discussion circles around the modern form of the language. Moreover, I don't think there was anything on my part to explain your gruff tone towards me. Fytcha (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- BTW: The examples at de:promovieren are misquoted.
- de.wp: "ein subsidium oder hilff [...] zulassen" – source: "ein ſubſidium oder hilff [...] zůlaſſen" – the Latinate term is set in another front and in zů- there's an small o above the u.
- de.wp: "Bruderschaffe S. Jofephs" – source: "Bruderſchafft S. Joſephs" or simplified "Bruderschafft S. Josephs" – with Bruderschafft (cp. Bruderschaft) and Joseph.
- --Myrelia (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- BTW why don’t you correct the typos, as it is a wiki? You have looked into the scans, so do it. Antiqua in Fraktur though is of course hard to mimick, and no grounds to exclude words, as many words which we needs include, or all wälsch words, were written this way.
- Do not forget to search promoviren for quotes, guys, as this is how the ending used to be written before 1900. Fay Freak (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
Sudovian. 'Pogańske gwary z Narewu' has Sudovian duo = Polish dwa. Not sure where 'dvai' came from. It's included in some webpages though, e.g. [26]. Is that enough? 70.175.192.217 16:47, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Feminine? (like Lithuanian du vs dvi) Thadh (talk) 16:58, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- It's absolutely possible that this form could exist, especially considering Old Prussian dwai, but I'm not sure where it could possibly be attested. Sudovian is mostly known through one iffy second-hand glossary (Narew) that omits this word and through reconstructions based on toponymy (I'd love to know the source for this, if one exists). The source I linked above that has "dvai" also has "astônei" for eight, which is a lot closer to what you'd expect based on other Baltic forms than the Narew form aktiʃ (which looks more like acht, or some funky sound changes and/or transcription errors occurred). 70.175.192.217 06:07, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- I just realized that this could also be somewhere in the works of Hieronimus Meletius. I'm not sure if they're digitized at all, but maybe some source mentions it second hand at least. 70.175.192.217 06:23, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Esperanto; is the proper noun (“Google”) used uncapitalized? J3133 (talk) 06:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- That section should probably be reduced to something like:
- with the etymology: From the verb gugli (“to google”), from Guglo (“Google”). Perhaps someone saw it translated as "google" and didn't realize the distinction. — 69.120.66.131 21:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
The given sources are Latin or Greek and have bricumum, βρικίνη (with variants), briginus, none of them has briginos. Thus it's *briginos, reconstructed from Latin/Greek "deformations". Compare how it's also Vandalic eils with alternative form *heils. --Myrelia (talk) 18:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This is not *briginos, this is briginos. Scholars use to not put a star in front of this term, you are just abusing the terms “reconstructed” and “attested”.
- The given sources being Latin or Greek does not hinder anything, since languages can be attested from mentions. It is no difference whether I put the Latin or Greek texts as collapsible “quotes” or mere ”citations” in a reference section, but the former is more customary for ancient works; yourself you just put Latin quotes in Vandalic entries and German in Old Prussian and the like.
- The exact form is also attested, in the third quote. briginos, written briginus because the author identified the Gaulish ending with the Latin ending, but this does not make it Latin, the quote literally says it is Gaulish. And it is well known that sometimes an exact lemma form is not attested but only “a deformation”, also known as inflection.
- Therefore, this RFV is dismissed.
- It is also dismissed as abusive and futile since we know well that these are all quotes that exist for this word. All quotes are given. Fay Freak (talk) 19:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Quotes are given, but again: none has briginos. Attested are only briginus etc. (By the quote, βρικίνη however could rather be a Greek than a Gaulish term.) Compare with Vandalic eils vs. *heils, and e.g. Old Prussian wolistian (attested) vs. *āzistin (M. Klussis' (re-)construction), *vɔ̄zistʹan (V. Mažiulis' (re-)construction). --Myrelia (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- No conclusion is made from your comparisons.
- The templates rely on the -os ending.
- The third quote has briginos, as it has briginus. Fay Freak (talk) 19:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Why this antic anyway of moving to the reconstruction space if it is attested? Something mindboggling for you: The word is attested, but none of its forms are. But the forms of a word do not need to be attested all. None need to be. I have attested the term. This is as much as the CFI require. Fay Freak (talk) 19:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Wort – Text – Sprache und Kultur has "Gall. *briginos/briginom war mithin schlicht die 'kräftige (i. S. v. sehr wirksame) Pflanze'", with star and two reconstructed forms, and here scholars too use a star. Mithridate / Mithridates (1555) has "Cf. [source], s.v. bricumos, briginos ? «armoise»", with a question mark.
- And BTW: I haven't put any Latin quote in a Vandalic entry. Also not in Old Prussian (Elbing Vocabulary which I cited is in Middle High German and Old Prussian). --Myrelia (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- You are just citing friends who are also unsure how to use the star. Simultaneously you refer to one source which lacks the star, so you see that it is not necessary, only your personal preference. Under some convention the star would be put after the term. On the other hand, often people do not even exactly know how a term is attested, therefore they star forms just to be cautious, without having sighted the loci. But this then does not even tell us whether the term or form is attested, in their view.
- Still you dodge the fact that the CFI do not require particular forms nor spellings to be attested, only terms.
- The term linked in the title is attested, quoted. The form is too, we can well claim. Fay Freak (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- “Attested”, not in the Latin quotation, but in the English translation supplied by you. Is your strike-through of the heading, as if the issue has been resolved other than by a shouting match, not somewhat out-of-process? --Lambiam 19:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam: How pedantic do you want to be? It is attested in the Latin quotation. Lemma-forms aren’t even attested always, what if it is e.g. in the plural or genitive? The lemma form would not be a reconstruction. From this derives the rule that we can disregard the inflectional part. And in the genitive the ending in Latin and Gaulish is the same, isn’t it too arbitrary to assume that then there is no “deformation”? But it is still not Latin in any case, whichever form is chosen, there is no evidence for it being Latin but for it being Gaulish. It literally says, “the Gauls call it briginos”, exactly this form, and not “the Gauls when speaking Latin”, the most natural interpretation in this glossary. If a Latin reader in antiquity reads “the Gauls call it briginus it is implied that the ending there is a wee bit different, as quotation practice was not like today. For antiquity standards this is how one has to abstract from the details, the intended meaning of the text. The text behind the text. It says that. Textual witnesses aren’t in that good a state either. Have you looked how the Punic in Poenulus is attested? It’s a forest of gibberish through which you have to look through to see the trees, it may be even up to the point of a small inexactness the author himself smuggled into the first text(s). A variant reading is not a reconstruction. And it would be an exaggeration to speak of a conjecture, emendation or reconstruction here. That man has no sense of proportion.
- The request was out of process from the beginning since all attestations were given, something else is requested … Fay Freak (talk) 21:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- “Attested”, not in the Latin quotation, but in the English translation supplied by you. Is your strike-through of the heading, as if the issue has been resolved other than by a shouting match, not somewhat out-of-process? --Lambiam 19:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Quotes are given, but again: none has briginos. Attested are only briginus etc. (By the quote, βρικίνη however could rather be a Greek than a Gaulish term.) Compare with Vandalic eils vs. *heils, and e.g. Old Prussian wolistian (attested) vs. *āzistin (M. Klussis' (re-)construction), *vɔ̄zistʹan (V. Mažiulis' (re-)construction). --Myrelia (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Move to reconstruction namespace. FWIW, kids throwing a tantrum can be ignored in our discussions. Akletos (talk) 09:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- It is a simple test to decide whether a word goes to the mainspace or reconstructed space: Is it attested? This word is, it has (even three) quotes for it, so it is situated in the mainspace. Only kids that blow their tops when they don’t get everything they want try to bend the rules and make representations when they face some edge that diverts them from furnishing their dollhouse. Fay Freak (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
November 2021
[edit]This is given as an Assamese word in the Ahom script. A literal translation of the word would be [i]oṃrīta[/i]. As we do not list Ahom as a script of Assamese, I believe such an entry needs to connect to an attestation. Unsurprisingly, Google finds nothing but clones of Wiktionary - it takes time for text to appear in Unicode. As @Msasag added the spelling, I hope he can oblige us with such a connection. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:49, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- “As we do not list Ahom as a script of Assamese” → non sequitur. We do not list all every scripts in which a language has been written. If I assess that Ahom script was used for Assamese – which on first glance makes much sense but we also have Middle Assamese, so perhaps it does not apply to the present chronolect – I may just add it, and your argument vanishes utterly into thin air. (And then, as you yourself seem to acknowledge, by Pali experience, we don’t always seek an attestation for a word in every script, but I say this as others do not realize this situation.)
- But no less we want to know from Msasag how or from where he gets these spellings, to assess the situation. Fay Freak (talk) 21:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
December 2021
[edit]Arabic. Rfv-sense "the prophet Muhammad". This is part of the exegetical interpretation, but does anyone actually refer to Muhammad by this name? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:13, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- For some background, see Ta-Ha. The name is not included in the many names of the prophet Muhammed. --Lambiam 18:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Is this really an Ancient Greek suffix? 1. re: The definition of the term "suffix": It's not attached to the stem (or another analysable morphological entity), but the outcome of regular sound change involving the closing consonant + a suffix -jō (or of a surface filter operating for a longer period of time; I don't know if this would make any difference). 2. re: Its productivity in Ancient Greek: Can it be shown that there are words formed with -σσω in Ancient Greek rather than in one of its pre-stages? There are candidates for this in the "Derived terms" section (e.g. φαρμάσσω, ἱμάσσω). --Akletos (talk) 12:41, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think this not a suffix, just like -ssus in Latin fissus is not a suffix but the result of a phonological process at play in fi(n)d- + -tus. If this is deleted, the same fate should befall -ζω (-zō), -λλω (-llō), -πτω (-ptō) and -ττω (-ttō). --Lambiam 10:39, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam @Erutuon Perhaps the content of these entries can at least in part be transferred to Category:Ancient Greek verbs with a progressive iota or yod marker (and the cat. be renamed?). Akletos (talk) 20:02, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Indonesian. Moved to RFV from an RFD: Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#bomba --Fytcha (talk) 15:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
- Also copying over the rationale of the original poster:
The word is almost never used in Indonesian. ind_mixed_2013 corpus from Leipzig did "attest" the word but keep in mind that the corpus is mixed with Malay, but if it's not a Malay word then the word is a proper noun or not widespread enough.
News corpora didn't show anything.
Mahali syarifuddin (talk) 14:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Albanian. IP marked it for speedy (Br00pVain). —Svārtava [t•c•u•r] 06:40, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Lumbardhia, Bolt Escargot, Etimo any thoughts? Thadh (talk) 14:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
- according to the online lexicons: http://m.fjalori.shkenca.org/, https://fjale.al/brinar, and https://fjalorthi.com/brinar, brinar is an accepted word for a cuckold in the albanian lexicography. seems to be derived from the word bri (brinë in Gheg), a euphemism for a woman donning "horns" for her husband. Lumbardhia (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
Does not meet criteria for inclusion: is a numeric consisting of two words more than 100. --Jarash (talk) 19:25, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jarash: Should be sent to WT:RFDN. Fytcha (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- There're also six thousand, nine thousand, níu þúsund - they show the correct spelling (with space or not?) and the formation (9 * 1000, not 90 * 100). --05:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think maybe the inclusion criteria for numbers are a bit too restrictive. I'm pretty sure we used to make exceptions for numbers above 100 that were sufficiently "interesting". Obviously that is in the eye of the beholder but 10,000 seems it should qualify. Cf. Russian де́сять ты́сяч (désjatʹ týsjač), which also exists (and given the complexity of Russian numbers, should arguably exist to help users correctly decline the number and its complement, if any). BTW English ten thousand qualifies regardless as it is a translation hub. Benwing2 (talk) 04:53, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- There're also six thousand, nine thousand, níu þúsund - they show the correct spelling (with space or not?) and the formation (9 * 1000, not 90 * 100). --05:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
January 2022
[edit]Following some mild edit warring in astronaut, I've went ahead and created this article so I can RFV it. Pinging @İtidal, MhmtÖ, 123snake45. --Fytcha (talk) 03:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I just realized this should probably have been uçurucu. So just a
{{misspelling of}}? On the same note, what about fezagir? That one has also been the target of edit warring. --Fytcha (talk) 03:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)- Turkish has both a suffix -ci and a variant -ici. The latter is attached to the stem of causative verbs (anlatıcı, canlandırıcı, çökertici, parlatıcı, sağaltıcı, uyuşturucu), and tends to form words that are primarily adjectives, so the neologism uçurcu is IMO more plausible than uçurucu. The suffix -ci is usually attached to a noun, though, and although the participle uçur can grammatically be used as a noun, it is not in actual use as such. (Compare the words çıkarcı and dönerci, in which the first component is a participle that has an independent existence as a noun.) As to fezagir, one of the ambitions of President Erdoğan is to send a Turk into space to kick off the Turkish National Space Program, and wouldn’t it be nice if they then could refer to this space voyager with an ur-Turkic term, instead of one with (blech) Greek roots. At the end of a lengthy speech, in which he revealed that astronomy and trigonometry had been invented by Turks, Erdoğan said: “Since a compatriot of ours will enter space, it is now necessary to find a Turkish counterpart for the words ‘astronaut’ or ‘cosmonaut’. From here, I call on our linguists and say, come, let us find a Turkish name for Turkish space travelers. Let our 83 million citizens too participate with their original ideas in this quest.”[27] This led to many suggestions, such as semanot, göknot, gökoğul, gökbey, evrenot, gökalp and cacabey.[28] Serdar Hüseyin Yıldırım, the administrator of the Turkish Space Agency, proposed the term fezagir.[29] That is, as far as I see, the status of fezagir on sources we accept for attestation: mentions as a proposal for a neologism. --Lambiam 17:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- when i saw the "uçurcu" i thought it was an ungrammatical form of uçurucu, neither of them used for astronaut nor meaningful so i undid the edit. Then i learned that the translation dictionary of Pamukkale University does have the words "uçur" and "uçurcu". I dont know how does "uçur" means "universe, space" (aorist of uçmak which is intransitive of "to fly" is uçar "he/she/it does fly, something that flies") or where did they found the word but both of the words doesnt exist in the offical dictionary.
- As for fezagir, Lambiam wrote how it came up, they probably took the word from Uzbek and proposed but nobody uses it as much as i know. MhmtÖ (talk) 10:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- How do we label Turkish words proposed as replacements for foreign borrowings, used three times per CFI, but not in common use? I don't like nonstandard here because some of the words were proposed by a government committee to create and possibly enforce a language standard. I would not be surprised to find some newspapers did use the government's proposals; at least one newspaper published periodic lists of coinages saying they would henceforth use them to replace Ottoman words. Yet most of those words did not enter common use. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Northern Kurdish: nothing at ku.wikipedia or anything that isn't auto-translation site Br00pVain (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Try looking for inflected forms like senemî. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 00:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
- This appears, in Arabic script with French transliteration, on page 270 of the 1879 Dictionnaire kurde-français[30]: "صنم, sanám, idole". Per LDL rules the Northern Kurdish editing community should decide which sources are acceptable. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 00:43, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Central Kurdish: nothing at ku.wikipedia or anything that isn't auto-translation site Br00pVain (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Page 441 of the 1879 Dictionnaire kurde-français[31] has "هردایم her-dàim, toujors". This is likely a more northern dialect, the dictionary being prepared largely in eastern Anatolia. A modern Northern Kurdish dictionary has her dem. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 00:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Might be archaic but I would like to see evidence that it's not made up. --Optional (talk) 01:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
@TagaSanPedroAko The English entry of this exists because it has a figurative meaning, while I think in Tagalog it's just the literal meaning, which makes this entry SOP. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser I can't answer this straightforward, but it's hard to tell if an loan translation of an English term is SOP. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: It's pretty simple. If the only definition of "isang daang porsyento" is "one hundred percent", then that's SOP. If you look at the entry one hundred percent, it's referring to the figurative meanings of the term. And also, it's not a loan translation. It's just Tagalog. We didn't need English to enter the Philippines for us to get "isang daang porsyento". We got "porsyento" or "porsiyento" from Spanish. And 100% or "cien porciento" is just "isang daang porsiyento" in Tagalog, similar to if we replace "isang daan" with any other number. If we need "isang daang porsyento" as an entry to know that that's 100% in Tagalog, then we also need "limampung porsiyento", "sampung porsiyento", and "limang porsiyento". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser I'll be find with that, but have you found any attestation that follows the English's figurative sense? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: Technically, I see some, but all of them are translations of English books into Tagalog, where probably the translator just translated word-for-word, giving us this scenario of "isang daang porsiyento" being used with the same figurative meaning as the English phrase. But I can't find any independent usage from that. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser I'll be find with that, but have you found any attestation that follows the English's figurative sense? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: It's pretty simple. If the only definition of "isang daang porsyento" is "one hundred percent", then that's SOP. If you look at the entry one hundred percent, it's referring to the figurative meanings of the term. And also, it's not a loan translation. It's just Tagalog. We didn't need English to enter the Philippines for us to get "isang daang porsyento". We got "porsyento" or "porsiyento" from Spanish. And 100% or "cien porciento" is just "isang daang porsiyento" in Tagalog, similar to if we replace "isang daan" with any other number. If we need "isang daang porsyento" as an entry to know that that's 100% in Tagalog, then we also need "limampung porsiyento", "sampung porsiyento", and "limang porsiyento". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
@TagaSanPedroAko Looking for attestation of this definition. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser I'll be fine removing sense in question, but how would you translate this sentence: "Maputi ka pa di ka tulad ng mga kaklase mong iskul-bukol." Is iskul-bukol here slow learner, or a student who doesn't place importance on academic performance (I don't know what term can express that)? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: Maybe the general definition of the term "iskul-bukol" is someone who doesn't care about academic performance and generally a slow learner? Because the term alludes to the TV show, so it must be characteristics of what the show is about. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser I can agree to that, but I'm not a batang 90s nor one who watched it. Again, any idea about translating the sentence I provided? I can say iskul-bukol often connotes having more time hanging out with friends, focusing on sports, playing games, engaging in romantic relationships, getting involved in vice, etc.. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 09:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: Maybe the general definition of the term "iskul-bukol" is someone who doesn't care about academic performance and generally a slow learner? Because the term alludes to the TV show, so it must be characteristics of what the show is about. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
I only know the word ĉipa, which means "cheap". I have never seen this word. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 14:40, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
- I've added two citations, for a total of three. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Tagged by Special:Diff/93.234.196.139 but not listed. @Fay Freak as the creator. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 04:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha: IP is a notorious barrator, normal readers do not request verification of terms included with quote. I could not see other occurrences in the beginning, which only made it more believable that this term was used in German New Guinea, in addition to being added in contrast to the usual meaning of the slur kartoffeldeutsch and the Danish Kartoffeldeutscher. Potato German is not found anywhere either for Unserdeutsch, but note the obsolete spelling of the nightshade “potatoe–german” in the article, evidently copied from some archival record.
- Wiktionary’s “look into Google Books” method to decide about ATTESTEDness is already demonstrated squarely fictitious, you can’t even find the official name of North Macedonia or corresponding demonym in Macedonian there, so it did not ring any alarm, rather this was my reasoning. Fay Freak (talk) 04:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Solved, moved it to Unserdeutsch, so LDL criteria apply. See, now we can have it anyway. It’s an interesting entry for our readers even without one being decided about a particular language it would be. Fay Freak (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- In the interview [34] the term Kartoffeldeutsch is used only as literal translation of potatoe German for the German speaking recipients of the broadcast, comparable to our |lit= parameter in certain templates. That shouldn't even count as a mention. As long as there aren't other citations this should be deleted. Akletos (talk) 10:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, so you think the actual term is Potato German (normalized) and it should be deleted as German but moved to English? But how come it is in English if it is in research about Unserdeutsch? Seemingly because Kartoffeldeutsch is used only as a literal translation of potatoe-German but that itself is already a translation of Unserdeutsch Kartoffeldeutsch (owing to speakers having moved to Australia). So even though you be right about it being used only as a literal translation comparable to our
{{lit}}this is twice-translated and the mention of an Unserdeutsch word (as it is all part of that research grant about Unserdeutsch, a language but discovered in the 1970s). So it should be converted to Unserdeutsch. Fay Freak (talk) 12:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)- The chain of transmission of this term and the temporal distance is very long: (A broadcaster reports that) a researcher says that in an interview an Unserdeutsch speaker told them that decades ago a nun had said... Nobody should base any assumptions on such shaky evidence without further corroborating data. Akletos (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, so you think the actual term is Potato German (normalized) and it should be deleted as German but moved to English? But how come it is in English if it is in research about Unserdeutsch? Seemingly because Kartoffeldeutsch is used only as a literal translation of potatoe-German but that itself is already a translation of Unserdeutsch Kartoffeldeutsch (owing to speakers having moved to Australia). So even though you be right about it being used only as a literal translation comparable to our
Translingual. Rfv-sense: (Internet) feminism. Not found on Emojipedia nor dictionary.com. They seem to agree on a K-Pop sense though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 17:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- This is real. Started around 2018 when purple was declared the official colour of International Women's Day. It's used by feminists of all stripes. Not to be confused with "💜🤍💚", which has emerged in the last year among gender-critical feminists, based on the colours used by the Women's Social and Political Union (a historical UK suffrage group). Anyway, this can be cited off Twitter, if that counts. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 23:56, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- (Adding to the confusion, 💜🤍💚 is also the colours of the genderqueer flag and used to represent that, too.) - -sche (discuss) 00:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- The entry was deleted out of process. I recreated it with three Twitter quotes for the feminism sense (and added a BTS sense). Einstein2 (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
February 2022
[edit]Translingual. Most of the entry could be taken are referring to Proteaceae a long-established plant family. Almost all Google Books hits are for Protoeaceæ (ie, ae ligature). If we are to have an entry we need citations. I've spent time looking, but haven't exhausted BHL or similar sources. So far each alleged hit for Protoacea turns out to have the ligature on close inspection. DCDuring (talk) 01:05, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have removed a specious reference to the 1911 Century Dictionary (“Proteacea”, in The Century Dictionary […], New York, N.Y.: The Century Co., 1911, →OCLC.). The entry there is for Proteaceæ, analyzed as Protea + -aceæ. --Lambiam 11:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have emended the entry based on my readings of material at BHL. Although I have not added citations they are available as snippets from the BHL link provided. Is this good enough? DCDuring (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Romani. Wörterbuch Romani-Deutsch-Englisch für den südosteuropäischen Raum by Boretzky and Igla, Morri angluni rromane ćhibǎqi evroputni lavustik by Marcel Courthiade, and ROMLEX only list variants of morthǐ as the Armenian loanword for "skin". --YukaSylvie (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- @YukaSylvie The entry lists two references, an Armenian etymological dictionary and what looks like a Romani-French dictionary. Romani is an LDL, so a single mention in an appropriate source is sufficient for keeping the entry. Are either of those references considered adequate for Romani? —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Romani. I can't find this word on Wörterbuch Romani-Deutsch-Englisch für den südosteuropäischen Raum by Boretzky and Igla, Morri angluni rromane ćhibǎqi evroputni lavustik by Marcel Courthiade, ROMLEX, or a Google Books search. --YukaSylvie (talk) 02:22, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Cebuano.
Tausug.
Both marked as speedy here by User:Obsidian Soul with the rationale: "See Wikipedia entry on Zamboanga. jambangan is folk etymology." @Carl_Francis, DCDuring, Apisite as the editors of that page. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 14:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- All I know is that the spelling is used as specific epithet for a single species of gecko found in the area of Zamboanga. DCDuring (talk) 15:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha Both of the entries are unsourced. I have sourced the Wikipedia entry on w:en:Zamboanga City extensively, including this paper which actually identifies the etymology of "Samboangan". Both of those entries are folk etymology which date back to the 1960s (apparently believed enough as to include the herpetologists who named the gecko in 2008). Still doesn't make it true though. The old name is Samboangan. Not Jambangan. Tausug isn't even relevant. Carl Francis is clearly a Cebuano-speaker (like I am). Zamboanga was a Subanen/Sama-Bajau settlement, not Tausug.
- I don't understand why a speedy on an unsourced entry is this difficult on Wiktionary. Even when I provide sources.--Obsidian Soul (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Obsidian Soul: That's because Wiktionary is based on usage, not authoritative references. Whether the etymology is right or wrong has no bearing on whether the word in question actually existed. On the other hand, even an ironclad, fully-referenced etymology based on the word wouldn't save the entry if the word wasn't actually attested- it would go in the Reconstruction namespace.
- If it can't be shown that the word is attested, and an incorrect etymology is the only evidence that the word existed, then the entry will be deleted. Pinging @Austronesier, who would know more about the sources available. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz And where is the attestation for "Jambangan"? Here are some of the numerous attestations of "Samboangan" in contemporary Spanish, British, German, and French colonial-era records. I can give you more.
- Jambangan is a word in Malay (apparently "water jar", "pot", or "vase" from what I can tell). But it is not the old name of Zamboanga like these entries claim.--Obsidian Soul (talk) 16:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- The etymology jambangan > Zamboanga is obviously rubbish; it is naively based on the Z-spelling of the initial consonant, and doesn't work for a couple of reasons. But I won't elaborate on it here, since this is a Rfv, which does not hinge on a bad (but popular) etymology. (It would only be relevant in a translingual entry Cyrtodactylus jambangan).
- The Tausug entry looks good, see this entry in the online version of the Tausug-English Dictionary: Kabtangan Iban Maana. Tausug has borrowed heavily from Malay, and I assume that this borrowing precedes the emergence of the folk etymology of Zamboanga. I have no idea if any Cebuano speaker has jambangan in their native or nativized lexicon, but I doubt it. But if it is attested in Cebuano usage, we just need to clarify the (wrong, but influential) etymology, and not to delete the entry (NB: if). –Austronesier (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS: Malay jambangan means "flower-pot", "flower-stand", "a moveable flower-bed", "receptacle for growing plants" (per Wilkinson's Malay-English Dictionary). –Austronesier (talk) 20:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Arabic. --2A01:E0A:B69:5160:242C:2020:97A9:DCCE 13:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- One will find quotes relating to occupations in Persia and farther east; noting the references I added. This will be about the same level as “Arabic” سِپَاه سَالَار (sipāh sālār). وَٱلكَرَّانِيَّ، وَهُوَ الْكَاتِبُ / وَٱلتُجَّارَ وَٱلرُؤَسَاءَ / وَٱلتِنْدِيلَ وَهُوَ مُقَدَّمُ ٱلْرُجَّالِ / وَسِپَاه سَالَارَ (wal-karrāniyya, wahuwa l-kātibu / wat-tujjāra war-ruʔasāʔa / wat-tindīla wahuwa muqaddamu l-rujjāli / wasipāh sālāra) in the quote at كَرَّانِيّ (karrāniyy). Fay Freak (talk) 17:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Arabic. --2A01:E0A:B69:5160:3107:D5CB:1C9:14FD 11:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I have not found use, though it is included in some dictionaries, and it is an Ottoman variant spelling, and I think رَطِب (raṭib) serves as the irregular active participle of the mentioned verbs. Fay Freak (talk) 17:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Hebrew.
The headword כוץ is different from the word used in the example, קוץ. Which is which? Sartma (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hebrew קוץ means "thorn or thistle", which is makes it semantically more plausible. From the discussion of the word on their talk page, it's apparently slang- so they might not have known its proper written form. That said, if everyone spells it כוץ, that's how we should spell it. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
March 2022
[edit]Turkish. The spaced spelling kirli kartopu exists. That is a translation of dirty snowball, which I do not consider a word meaning comet but an adjective and a noun describing a comet. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- The term was used in that spelling in a question on the Turkish version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?. The question was, “Of which of the following is this a synonym?”, with a choice between A: the Moon, B: Venus, C: a comet, D: the Pole star.[35] Many uses found online are quoting this quiz question, as seen here or here, in articles that otherwise use the spelling kirli kartopu. This calque of dirty snowball does (in some contexts) mean “comet”, just like the English original.[36][37][38] The Turkish Language Association considers the spelling kirlikartopu the correct spelling[39] and lists it like that in its authoritative dictionary, but the spelling kirli kartopu is quite common. --Lambiam 22:44, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
It seems it is a typo.--159.146.45.126 20:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Nope, it isn’t. You can look for this word in the official dictionary of Turkish, published by Turkish Language Association. I added the link as a reference in the page of the word.
Rarotongan. @MinecraftGod12345 as the creator. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 00:38, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha It is article-worthy. I am making heaps of new entries about geography in Cook Islands Māori by finding them in an online dictionary. MinecraftGod12345 (talk) 00:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- An interesting case. First, the language: We call the language "Rarotongan", while Wikipedia calls it Cook Islands Māori and says calling the language "Rarotongan" is controversial, as Rarotongan is supposed to be one of three dialects of the Cook Islands Māori language. WT:LT doesn't mention these languages, so it may have never been discussed by Wiktionarians.
- This dictionary labels Verengiteni as "Mangaia(n)", which is apparently a sub-dialect of Rarotongan. Another site gives "Poneke" as the name for Wellington, which would be from Maori Pōneke.
- To verify these names, we just need to find a single use or mention in a durably archived text. The name of Wellington (at least) should be easily cited from any Cook Islands Māori news source, but I can't find any written news in this language. RNZ produces Cook Islands Māori radio news programs, and SBS previously did, but these would not be durably archived. This, that and the other (talk) 01:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- In yesterday's RNZ news bulletin the speaker code-switches and just says "Wellington" at 1:31 and "Christchurch" at 0:19, as with other English words like "supermarket" at 3:00 and "campaign" at 3:18. This, that and the other (talk) 12:42, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
We discussed this before, the word "suglamuman" itself is not used anywhere, not found in publications, misspelling of "suglaguman" only online, the wrong spelling only found in online wordlists. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
- Doesn't occur in anything durably archived, though it can be found online. The online occurrences are not particularly numerous.
I'm inclined to call this RFV-failed under the rare misspellings clause. 70.172.194.25 07:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC) - I just checked the "correct" spelling and it doesn't have any Google-indexed hits in durably archived sources either. There is a reference, " Maugnaying Talasalitaang Pang-agham Ingles-Pilipino", but it looks like it would be a dictionary and therefore a mention not a use. In fact, this misspelling has more Google hits! How sure are we that this is a misspelling? Should either form be kept? @Mar vin kaiser. 70.172.194.25 17:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: It's a popular misspelling. Maybe it can be tracked because of its greater usage. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I can't find either form attested in durably archived sources to which I have access (Google Books/Scholar/Groups, Internet Archive, Issuu). Do you even know of any books that use the proper form suglaguman? Maybe school textbooks that aren't indexed by Google? Regardless, based on what's easily available to me (Google), I would say that as long as suglaguman is kept, suglamuman should be too; the erroneous form has more hits than the normative spelling. So basically there are two options:
- Call this RfV-failed, send suglaguman to RfV too, and that will probably also end up as RfV-failed (unless real textbooks, etc. turn up).
- Cite both using Twitter/Reddit and hold a two-week discussion (per WT:CFI) to see if people think the online sourcing is sufficient.
- How should we proceed? 70.172.194.25 06:51, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: By the way, are you using a registered account? Or is your account name really just numbers? Anyway, the thing is, this falls under a special category in Tagalog lemmas that is currently has hundreds of entries called the "Maugnayin" words. These are neologisms, coinages, done in the 1960's, but not in use today, but many people, though not mainstream, still use them from time to time, especially in saying that this particular coinage is the Tagalog word for this scientific term. Also, if you're referring to attestations in online forums, there was a vote for that some time back, result as far as I understand it is to allow social media attestations for now. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:00, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I can't find either form attested in durably archived sources to which I have access (Google Books/Scholar/Groups, Internet Archive, Issuu). Do you even know of any books that use the proper form suglaguman? Maybe school textbooks that aren't indexed by Google? Regardless, based on what's easily available to me (Google), I would say that as long as suglaguman is kept, suglamuman should be too; the erroneous form has more hits than the normative spelling. So basically there are two options:
- @70.172.194.25: It's a popular misspelling. Maybe it can be tracked because of its greater usage. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Alemannic German.
No results at Google and Google Books and not in Google Groups / Usenet.
Possibly too add: hän Sii morn scho öppis vor, goots dr besser, goots Ine besser, sind Sii ghüroote ([40]/[41] gives: sind Sii ghüratä). --Sasha Gray Wolf (talk) 15:07, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Sasha Gray Wolf: That's a bit ridiculous, don't you think? It is obviously correct and the parts are easily attested: häsch du morn scho öppis vor. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 15:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's not a verification request for the parts but for the phrase as a whole (I'm not a fan of protologisms if they aren't marked as such). One could also translate may the Force be with you, hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette or other phrases but that doesn't mean the translation is used/attested. --Sasha Gray Wolf (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- lol @ protologism. The last link in my previous reply proves that "scho öppis vorha" is used in this way and all other words are separately attested; slight variations of the complete phrase are also found on the internet. Exactly the same argument is true for sind Sii ghüroote, see e.g. isch ghüroote. RFVing a phrase that is obviously and patently correct, that is found (with slight variations) on the internet, and whose constituents are attested is just a complete barrator move. @Widsith, Chuck Entz — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 16:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's not a verification request for the parts but for the phrase as a whole (I'm not a fan of protologisms if they aren't marked as such). One could also translate may the Force be with you, hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette or other phrases but that doesn't mean the translation is used/attested. --Sasha Gray Wolf (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- IMO this is simply a SOP. The response could be, jo, ich hä scho öppis vor morn. One could then equally ask un häsch du ibermorn scho öppis vor?. We also do not have entries for as-tu quelque chose à faire demain or yarın yapacak bir şeyin var mı. So send to rfd. --Lambiam 11:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Lambiam:
Phrasebook entries are very common expressions that are considered useful to non-native speakers. Although these are included as entries in the dictionary (in the main namespace), they are not usually considered in these terms. For instance, what is your name is clearly a summation of its parts.
— Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:21, 10 March 2022 (UTC)Phrasebook entries are supported in the criteria of inclusion by a passage dedicated to them in the section "Idiomaticity"; they may not meet the requirement of idiomacity other than for the dedicated passage.
- The
{{rfv}}tag was placed below the{{phrasebook}}label, which is why I did not spot that label when I clicked the section title. --Lambiam 07:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- The
- If this is "very common" it should be findable in exactly the form presented. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not if the language is generally unwritten. Thadh (talk) 14:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- And also has an unsettled orthography, varying by region, when written (e.g. moorn next to morn). --Lambiam 07:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not if the language is generally unwritten. Thadh (talk) 14:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Lambiam:
![[35]](https://static.daktilo.com/sites/71/uploads/2018/08/11/milyoner.jpg){kind=link}
- I don't really have a great interest in Phrasebook entries. Since I was tagged I can only comment that I have certainly heard the phrase used and it's clearly correct and useful for learners, but I am neutral on its inclusion as I have never quite understood what the attestation/SOP requirements are for phrases of this kind. Ƿidsiþ 08:11, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, logically at the very least WT:CFI (one use or mention for a LDL) must be fulfilled. Otherwise people could translate phrases into any other language. Then we could get (my English isn't) the yellow from the egg (“(my English isn't) the best”) (cp. [42], [43]). Or may the Force be with you translated into all kinds of other languages (extinct languages like Gothic, conlangs like Esperanto, living LDLs). And then the situation with phrases would be like with Navajo animal terms (cp. A, B, C, D) or Scots (E, F).
- What can be found: "hesch öppis bsungers vor für morn" ([44]), "hesch du no öppis fertig z'mache" ([45]). --Sasha Gray Wolf (talk) 10:22, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- There's a difference between adhering to the letter and the spirit of the law. Of course we should be wary of nonsensical literal translations such as the ones you've mentioned, but this isn't a concern here as this phrase is clearly idiomatic and in widespread use (not only confirmed by two speakers but also by analogy as "Ich ha dänn scho öppis vor." is attested). The fact that you've moved another patently correct article bisch du ghüroote to a slightly different spelling bisch du ghüüroote (diff) while ignoring the fact that the variant in question (ghüroote) is also widely attested, is pretty strong evidence that idiomaticity and barring protologisms isn't your concern with this ordeal at all. Anyway, I have more productive things to do than squabbling over my native language and wading through the combinatorial jungle just to find that one attested altform among the thousands of correct possibilities. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 10:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- I propose that we close this under the clear widespread use clause. There might be some variation of this phrase that is attested letter by letter but I'm not going to bother searching for it (even just öppis has many synonyms, all of which have multiple alt-forms). My above comment from 14 March 2022 explains it pretty well. This phrase is legitimate. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 09:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Multiple Basque given names
[edit]This RFV affects Xoangotei, Xoantako, Xopeiza, Xorut, Xoro, Xoroko and Xuntako. All of them have a source (which I don't have access to), but they don't seem to be in use (not even mentioned) anywhere. The closest thing to an attestation I've found is this use of "Xoroko" as a nickname (an affectionate form of zoroko (“fool”)). The author of the book given as a source is a serious scholar so I suspect most of these supposed given names might actually be nicknames.--Santi2222 (talk) 14:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Identical to the verb дѣти (děti) except with a nasal vowel. A rare variant or just a mistake? — 69.120.66.131 00:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Looking into it, I'm not even sure дѣти (děti) is attested with all of the meanings listed there. дѣꙗти (dějati) appears to be the more common form, and дѣти (děti) is mostly just attested in the reflexive phrase дѣти сѧ (děti sę). — 69.120.66.131 00:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Ladino. I could find sources describing a Ladino word "aver" meaning "air", which I added as references to the page. There is also "avel" meaning mourning ([46], [47], [48]). I could not find any sources describing a word "avel" meaning "air".
If deleted, should be moved to aver as the content is good other than the title. If kept, it must be a secondary form and the main entry should be at aver; unless, of course, it is actually a separate word and not just a variant. 70.172.194.25 02:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Ladino. karuvim is in the source I added. keruvim (in the form keruƀim) is in DHJE, but only with the meaning "cherubs", and I did not find any other spelling variant that could be this word. (Note that in Hebrew כְּרוּב and קָרוֹב have different initial consonants, in addition to the subtle niqqud change.) If deleted, should just be moved to karuvim. 70.172.194.25 01:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Ladino. Same story as the previous two; a word like it definitely exists, but I can't find this particular form. In this case, mabul is the seemingly right form. 70.172.194.25 02:01, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not exactly an expert on Hebrew, but when I seen a double vowel in a language that has glottal stops, it makes me think one might be present, as in "ma'abe". Another consideration is that מ־ is a very common prefix with a number of functions, so you would want to check words starting with aleph or ayin as well. That said, I didn't see anything obvious along those lines, so you might already tried that and not bothered to mention it. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree. It feels like it would be from the root ע־ב־ה or something. Well, the ending is unclear because it could be clipped. Anyway, here's a neat site that lets you search for words belonging to roots with multiple possible characters in each slot, allowing for some guesswork: [49]. I'm not seeing anything, but I might not be looking in the right places (well, if I include yodh, I can find the mabul one, but I assume we're looking for other possible etymons). Special:PrefixIndex/Mem-Ayin-Beth and Special:PrefixIndex/Mem-Aleph-Beth don't show anything promising either. 70.172.194.25 05:33, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Someone back in August removed everything except the etymology from this entry for no obvious reason. 70.172.194.25 07:56, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Moved from RFD. Earlier discussion: WT:RFDN#αρbε̰ρ. Thadh (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- I found άρbε̱ρ in these Beiträge zu einem albanesisch-deutschen Lexikon [Contributions toward an Albanian–German lexicon] and I found the Greek Ἄρβερ on pages 84 and 88 of Nikolaos Georgiou Nikokles' 1855 De Albanensium sive Schkipitar origine et prosapia · Περὶ τῆς αὐτοχθονίας τῶν Ἀλβανῶν ἤτοι Σκιπιτάρ [On the ancestral source of the Albanians or Shkypetars]. Do they help at all? Fruitless Forest (talk) 19:38, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Astova, Erutuon, Fytcha, IMIPER, Lambiam, MelancholicLinguist, Prosfilaes, Rua, SemperBlotto, SKA-KSI, Thadh, as editors of αρbε̰ρ and/or as contributors to the deletion discussion, I thought you might have an interest in this. @Sarri.greek, do Άρβερ (Ἄρβερ), αυτοχθονία (αὐτοχθονίας), and Σκιπιτάρ warrant entries, in your opinion? Fruitless Forest (talk) 14:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fruitless Forest about Άρβερ Σκιπιτάρ = if there is a PoS 'Transliterations' for nongreek words, similar to Romanizations, probably they could be created with your ref. I am not sure how such unadapted and rare occurrences are handled at en.wiktionary. On the other hand, αυτοχθονία is a normal noun (Standard Modern Greek), spellt with αὐτο- in old polytonic spelling, the word since 1815. (cf αυτόχθων (aftóchthon).
- @Thadh, SKA-KSI I think αρbε̰ρ, αρbε̰ρισ̈τ, αρbε̰ρίσ̈τ should be deleted & replaced for the following reason: These 'greek' scripts with added latin characters & diacritics mimicking phonetics were created by lexigographers of past centuries and, alas, by the Dialect Dictionary of the Academy of Athens (which ended ingloriously somewhere at letter delta). As far as I know, they have been abandoned for some decades. I understand that the contemporary practice is to lemmatise the closest usual greek script + I.P.A. accompanying it. Here these scripts, could be mentioned (with {lang}, no link) at the main corresponding Albanian.dialect lemma, with their IPA as described in the dictionary from where they were retrieved. They would be αρμπερ (don't know where the accent was), αρμπερίστ (I cannot see the difference of the two) at arbërisht etc. Source and IPA are very crucial for the presentation of dialects, precisely because a script did not exist.
- The wikipedia article'Arvanitika' has a list of characters for these script, probably reproduced in more wikis and sites. I tried to find scanned pages of the correspondance referred at @en.wikt via third sources, (I doubt that the particular writers used umlauts and nongreek diacritics when writing arvanitika), but i could not find a scan. If so, the phrase in some lemmata 'script used by Arvanites', ...more likely: 'script proposed by X dictionary'. I cannot be sure; I would need to read the introduction of the source-dictionary. All other similar scripts I have encountered, are constructed by lexicographers, never used by native speakers (who for most dialects, were illiterate).
- But I am not the right person to verify all this. Whether their lemmatization is justified or not would need verification by a professional expert. @Dr Moshe -sorry to trouble you, Sir, just for the legitimacy of lemmatizing-.
- Thadh, please note, that all the templates: Template:list:Greek script letters/aat, Template:list:Greek script letters/acy & Template:list:Greek script letters/tsd were created by anonymi, probably by copying such proposed scripts, with no reference whatsoever. All lemmata with such scripts could be deleted as well as the templates, if the above paragraphs are accepted as correct. Perhaps this issue could be discussed in general in a different page? Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ I 22:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Mongolian. Not in any Mongolian dictionary I can access. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
[50]. Mongolian is an LDL, so I guess this is satisfactory. Thadh (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)- Never mind, upon further inspection this doesn't seem to be a real book Thadh (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- This does seem to be in (at least informal) use, but as a borrowing from English. Russian borrowings don't change ⟨е⟩ to ⟨э⟩. @Thadh Are you sure? I'm getting the expected result when I do an ISBN search. Theknightwho (talk) 11:21, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: Missed this ping for some reason. No, I'm not sure. Thadh (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Coptic. Ⲉⲑⲱⲙ/ⲁⲑⲱⲙ are reconstructions. Ⲟⲛⲟⲩⲣⲓⲥ is a transliteration of a Greek rendering of an Egyptian god’s name. ⲧⲟⲩⲏⲣⲉ/ⲑⲟⲩⲏⲣⲓ are etymologically correct forms, but never used in the sense of the goddess Tawaret in Coptic texts. Ⲅⲉⲃ just looks like the Egyptological pronunciation of gb written in Coptic letters.Rhemmiel (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- ⲑⲟⲩⲏⲣⲓ is attested by Coptic Dictionary Online. It is important to remember that Jean-François Champollion spoke Coptic and he was the one that reconstructed the ancient Egyptian language, and it is likely that ⲉⲑⲱⲙ, ⲁⲑⲱⲙ, ⲅⲉⲃ, and ϩⲛⲟⲩⲙ are the translation of Atum, Geb, and Khnum in Coptic. Ⲁⲡⲟⲗⲗⲟⲇⲱⲣⲟⲥ (talk) 14:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
April 2022
[edit]Old English dīeġan is missing from both the Dictionary of Old English and Bosworth-Toller; this appears to be because it is entirely unattested; as smeortan, the OED has a note to this effect. Now as was done with that verb, we could relocate it to Reconstruction:Old English/diegan in the very likely event that cites do not end up emerging. However, I question whether the reconstruction of such a verb is necessary; the obvious justification for doing so is the existence of Middle English deyen, but that could be easily be from Old Norse deyja. This is the standard etymology given by the dictionaries, and I see no reason be at variance with them. With Middle English deyen taken out of the way, we are thus left without any justification for the reconstructing *dīeġan. It may be worth using {{no entry}} at diegan, though, as it appears to be frequently brung up in online discussions of Old English (only some of which note its tenuosity). Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Hazarasp: In B&T there is a redirect from dīeġan to dīġan, which is found here [[51]]. There is some uncertainty whether dēog means "died" or "dyed". It's translated both ways, depending... Leasnam (talk) 20:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Neither of those explanations are satisfactory to me; instead, I prefer to take dēog as the past tense of a verb *dēagan (“to hide”) (< Proto-Germanic *dauganą; c.f. Old High German tougan (“hidden”)). The DOE supports this hypothesis preliminarily, but remains noncommital, but I believe the poetic context means that it is the only hypothesis that rings true to me: interpreting dēaðfǣge dēog as "doomed to death, he dyed" makes little sense, while "doomed to death, he died" is conceptually repetitive doggerel (it is also not clear that the past tense of a putative *dīegan would result in dēog). Moreover, despite Bammersberg's statement that dēog has "no generally accepted interpretation", the "hid" hypothesis seems to be usual in the recent literature (e.g. in A Guide to Old English, Beowulf and the Hunt, Blogging Beowulf: Fit XIII, Lines 837-924, Eldum Unnyt: Treasure Spaces in Beowulf, and The conceptualisation of emotions in Old English: dream 'joy' as LIFE, PRIVILEGE and HEAVEN in Anglo-Saxon prose and poetry). Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 13:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
German. Seems like a protologism, as fair as i saw no example at the linked DWDS, only one example at google books. --學者三 (talk) 21:17, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- The term occurs in the heading of an official German regulation published in the Bundesgesetzblatt 2021 Vol. I nr. 62, page 4077,[52] as short (!) for Besondere Gebührenverordnung des Bundesministeriums der Finanzen zur Finanzdienstleistungsaufsicht. This should be considered a proper noun, the (nick)name of a specific entity. Since the regulation provides for a convenient abbreviation of the short name, FinDAGebV (see used here), I guess we won't be seeing many uses of the term. --Lambiam 11:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
- Confirmed in so far it occurs in neither Beck Online nor Juris. However this is a hot word since the regulation is in effect since 01.10.2021. On the other hand it must have been applied somewhere and thus the FinDAGebV must be on record at some authorities somewhere, as if there are laws someone follows them, in Germany. A written abbreviation is enough since the short name Finanzdienstleistungsaufsichtsgebührenverordnung is how the abbreviation FinDAGebV is pronounced. Chinese pronunciations themselves aren’t supposed to occur in writing either yet pinyin gets entries. Fay Freak (talk) 18:49, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
I could not find evidence of this word anywhere in Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, only in other Aramaic languages.— This unsigned comment was added by Shuraya (talk • contribs) at 01:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC).
May 2022
[edit]Impossible to web-search.
- Imagine German, Ety 2 genitive "poo-poo" was automatically created by templates. I sincerely doubt that it can be attested, because the genitive is rare in colloquially speech and even more so in children that have not yet acquired the morphology, and even more so in writing.
- Surely /ˌaˈʔa(s)/ should not be spelled Aa(s), what's usually /a:/. Who takes the time to create literally children shit entries and then doesn´t source their shit? The Further Reading only concerns Ety 1. 141.20.6.200 12:16, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- How else would it be spelled? —Soap— 21:35, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Soap: Is that a rhetorical question!? Standard German orthography does not recognize a glottal stop. Nonstandard spelling may be arbitrary, eg. I-Aah for the sound of the donkey and I think IA as well.
- Pinging User:PseudoSkull who added this and may be able to confirm that it was or wasn't created "automatically". ApisAzuli (talk) 01:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ApisAzuli I didn't add anything to this entry according to the page history, nor do I recall doing anything with it. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh shoot, right, thanks for the heads up. It was User:SemperBlotto (who has apparently the same voice of reason in my head). ApisAzuli (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've no idea. SemperBlotto (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ApisAzuli I didn't add anything to this entry according to the page history, nor do I recall doing anything with it. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ApisAzuli DWDS gives the genitive singular as Aa. Theknightwho (talk) 11:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- the Duden says: genitive singular Aa or Aas ([53]) --Scripturus (talk) 19:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Yamphu. This is given under a Yakkha header but with a Yamphu language code and reference. The given reference [54] has two Yamphu words for "bird": सोङा (soṅā) and सोङ्वा (soṅwā), but not साङ्वा (sāṅwā). So is this actually Yakkha, or a Yamphu typo, or a dialectal variant, or ...? @Hk5183 This, that and the other (talk) 02:17, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- The third possibility is that this was supposed to go at Yamphu सोङ्वा (soṅwā), but the contributor was distracted by the similarity of the spelling (सो vs सा) into adding it to the wrong entry. Looking at their edit history, it was halfway into over an hour of creating nothing but Yamphu entries (the Yakka page creation was 9 days eatlier). By the way, @This, that and the other: you seem to have your language codes switched. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, I have fixed the codes here. The two codes couldn't be any closer... This, that and the other (talk) 07:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Gaulish: Is there any evidence that this existed as a distinct word? It appears to be the same as the element -briga, which is said in sources such as Matasović 2009:77 to be only attested as part of compound toponyms. So, this should be moved to Reconstruction:Gaulish/briga. — 69.120.66.131 22:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Btw, see this discussion for some related info, such as Latin toponyms with this "suffix" that were borrowed from Celtic, some of which should probably be listed in the event that a reconstruction page is created. Note that these are -brīga in Latin, with long ī, unlike the short i currently transcribed at brigā (which might just have been a baseless assumption on the part of the entry creator). — 69.120.66.131 22:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
June 2022
[edit]Moved here from RfD. --Lambiam 08:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
This word doesn't exist in Turkish. Dohqo (talk) 06:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- According to Turkish Language Association's Kişi Adları Sözlüğü (Personal Names Dictionary) it means: 1. Görkemli, kuvvetli, muazzam. 2. Yiğit, kahraman. 3. Rütbe, unvan.4. Bir tür kaplan. — This comment was unsigned.
- Not in
{{R:tr:OTK}}. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Rfv-sense: Kharoshthi.
So far as I am aware, it is an assumption rather than a good guess that the Sanskrit word refers to the script known as Kharoshthi in English. Any Sanskrit examples of usage in this sense would be from the last two hundred years. (On the other hand, the cited quotation is the ultimate known source of the English word.)
I think the word may actually have two senses - whatever script it meant in the original sense (if it isn't a word like jabberwocky), and the Kharoshthi script as known today. However, we don't have a quotation for the latter! --RichardW57m (talk) 14:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from WT:RFDE.
Old English.
- This is attested <<Ðæt ic hæbbe hnesce litlingas, and gecelfe cý mid me - that I have tender children and incalving cows with me >>. Also found here [[55]]. Leasnam (talk) 05:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is also the entry at ġeċealf, which is/is not the same term (?) Leasnam (talk) 05:36, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Based on the similar terms ġeēan, ġefearh, and ġefol and the lack of i-umlaut in all of these, this word was actually ġeċealf. Hundwine (talk) 01:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Hundwine Per Clark Hall A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, the form is geċealfe "great with calf" sourced to GenC 33:13, where GenC is explained in the intro as "Crawford's Heptateuch" version of the poem of Genesis. Benwing2 (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, send to WT:RFVN. --Astova (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
@Hundwine, Benwing2, Astova This, that and the other (talk) 08:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from WT:RFDN.
Hebrew. Apparently incorrect. --Huckerby980 (talk) 12:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. It's used in the press occasionally, although בית עבוט is more common. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Should we have an entry for משכונות by itself? I can't quite figure it out; could it be cognate to מִסְכֵּן (compare Mozarabic משכון (mškwn))? From the uses it seems to have three meanings: (1) pawn (security for loan)[56]; (2) pawn shop (perhaps by shortening of חנות משכונות); (3) neighbourhood. Cases of the last one are probably misspellings of משכנות. --Lambiam 09:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
@Princeipeazul Could you provide attestation for this based on Wiktionary entry guidelines? I can't find this in any published source. It kinda needs to be to be tracked in Wiktionary. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:36, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, we've got tropa listed as meaning a group of friends in Tagalog, so there's probably something to this, but there's clearly a mistake somewhere. If it were a typo for something like tropatita i could see this being a diminutive coined in Spanish and then loaned, or even coined natively using familiar patterns .... but although the letters are close I get the impression that no such word exists, and that anywhere it appears on Google search results is an example of the two separate words tropa + tito spelled bunched together as in hashtags. Alternatively, there may be a connection with patutsada, created by the same author, and with the same six letters in a row. —Soap— 21:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Soap: It's obvious that it's related to "tropa". The issue is attestation. So many variations of Tagalog slang come and go but they don't stick. Probably this is one of them. Without attestation, it can't be an entry in Wiktionary. By the way, the IPA template you put is wrong, when "ts" is at the end of a Tagalog sentence, it doesn't produce a /tʃ/ sound but a /ts/ sound. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from WT:RFDN.
This is a Pattani Malay word. - Patnugot123 (talk) 18:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- Why should it be deleted? Can't it just be turned into a Pattani Malay entry?
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC) - @GinormousBuildings can you respond to Patnugot123's request by demonstrating that this is in use as a Malay word, or whether it belongs to the distinct Pattani Malay language? This, that and the other (talk) 12:48, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
July 2022
[edit]Old English. All I'm seeing is ælfþone (Bosworth-Toller). 98.170.164.88 00:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- I created an entry for ælfþone. "ielfþone", along with "ielfiġ" originally appeared on this page: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ielf#Derived_terms
"ælfþone" is in the Mercian orthography.
2602:306:CEC2:A3A0:A07C:91F6:D2CC:EC3A 00:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: (botany, obsolete) biennial (the orbital period of Mars is 2 years)
As an aside, I assume the part about the orbital period of Mars is the etymology of the sense, but I'm not certain. Theknightwho (talk) 23:30, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- You can find “♂ Biennial” and “♃ Perennial” here, as well as “☉ Annual”, thus extending the correspondence between the plant’s longevity and the astronomical object’s orbital period, undoubtedly the origin of the association of these symbols with plants. “♄” is also listed, but as simply meaning “Shrub or Tree” – all of which, however, are perennial anyway. Likewise here and here, although the latter has a toppled Jupiter in the table; later uses in the book are upright). --Lambiam 14:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Taking the three sources together, I'd suggest that we amend ♂ to read
biennial plant
for the sake of consistency. All three sources seem to give a mix of noun and adjective glosses for these symbols, and they're not consistent with each other when it comes to the same symbol. Given that they're not used within running text, it doesn't really matter which style we choose, butbiennial plant
is more elegant thanOf a plant, binennial.
Theknightwho (talk) 15:17, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Taking the three sources together, I'd suggest that we amend ♂ to read
Translingual. Rfv-sense: (botany, obsolete) herbaceous perennial plant (the orbital period of Jupiter is 12 years)
Not sure how the two halves of the sense relate to each other, to be quite honest. I guess herbaceous plants live longer than 2 years (see ♂) but less than woody plants (see ♄)? Theknightwho (talk) 23:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- One reference has been added to the article. As far as I can tell it only mentions the term, defining it as "A perennial." —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: (botany, obsolete) woody perennial plant (the orbital period of Saturn is 30 years)
Also unsure how the two halves of the sense relate to each other, but I assume it's to do with woody plants living longer than herbaceous ones (see ♃). Theknightwho (talk) 23:37, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- One reference has been added to the entry, but I'm having trouble finding this symbol on the specified pages. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- It can be a bit hard to recognize, as described by Simpson 2010 Botanical symbols: a new symbol set for new images. kwami (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that helps. Based on that I suppose it is the symbol defined as "A true tree; as the Oak" and "An under shrub; as Laurustinus." I still don't think we have any uses of the symbol with this meaning, only two mentions. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's not too difficult to find uses, but they're all old. kwami (talk) 18:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Kwamikagami Could you provide three of them, to show that the symbol meets WT:CFI? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- I wrote to niki simpson, who knows the lit. i don't remember the sources i've seen (none of which i have on me), and a gbooks search doesn't work because they get hits for 'jupiter' and 'saturn'.
- BTW, this (p. 1604) mentions the orbital periods in conjunction w the botanical meaning (though there are some obvious copy errors).
- They were required knowledge for school exams in the 19th cent, but again those are mentions rather than uses. kwami (talk) 04:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger Okay, Simpson responded that she's mostly seen these "handwritten on very old herbarium sheets." One old printed example is Linnaeus Species Plantarum. ♃ (perennes) is very common, ♄ (fruticantes) less so, but appears for e.g. Salicornia #2, #4 on p5 of vol I.
- Perennis and fruticans BTW would be the authoritative definitions.
- Vol I is free on GBooks; you can find online links to all vols on Latin Wikisource. kwami (talk) 16:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Kwamikagami Could you provide three of them, to show that the symbol meets WT:CFI? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's not too difficult to find uses, but they're all old. kwami (talk) 18:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that helps. Based on that I suppose it is the symbol defined as "A true tree; as the Oak" and "An under shrub; as Laurustinus." I still don't think we have any uses of the symbol with this meaning, only two mentions. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- It can be a bit hard to recognize, as described by Simpson 2010 Botanical symbols: a new symbol set for new images. kwami (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Old Norse. This edit by Xact (talk • contribs) added some extra information, but did not really follow the Wiktionary format, and I cannot verify the content because I cannot read the language of the book in the link. --kc_kennylau (talk) 00:48, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks like the info is right based on the reference, but they should have made a new L3 header for the noun instead of sticking it in the etymology. The quotation from the c. 1500 manuscript ("AM 625 4") is shown in the panel on the right of the reference, but someone more knowledgeable should confirm it I guess. 98.170.164.88 00:55, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Arabic. Rfv-senses: "to be revealed or divulged, to become known", "(of a secret) to leak out". There was an edit war over whether to include these intransitive senses, in addition to the transitive sense of "to reveal, to divulge, to disclose", which is currently the only one that remains. To be clear, I was not involved in the edit war.
FWIW, Wehr lists all these intransitive senses as well as the transitive ones, almost verbatim: [57]. 98.170.164.88 03:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- See my response above. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 03:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Abu Al-Haytham Ibn al-Tayyihan said إن الوصي إمامنا وولينا برح الخفاء وباحت الأسرار [58] --2001:16A2:E950:3402:28B9:7B80:EB65:4073 09:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
August 2022
[edit]Rfv-sense Pokémon". Dennis Dartman (talk) 20:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Dartman: The sense "Pokémon" is easily verifiable in any official translation of the games of the Pokémon series. Sartma (talk) 21:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- See the deletion discussion, however. Dennis Dartman (talk) 23:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Dartman, the confusion is that this is not about RFV of a specific sense for this term. (FWIW, Pokémon is the only sense currently in the ポケットモンスター (Poketto Monsutā) entry.) This is specifically seeking evidence that this passes WT:BRAND. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
An apparent calque of firearm, and synonymous with Feuerwaffe and Schusswaffe. But attestation of this word is scant (89 hits on Google, including those generated by the Wiktionary entry itself). It is not to be found in the usual dictionary/corpus database sources (Duden, Pons, DWDS, etc.), and the audio on the page is for Feuerwaffe (presumably copied across from that page). Can we find attestation to support this entry's existence? Voltaigne (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Here is a use of the term with a different meaning, possibly the same as for the implied use in Strodtmann’s feuerarm’gen Moloch. Some uses in the sense of a Schießgewehr: [59], [60], [61], [62]. If (as is IMO plausible) this is a partial calque of English firearm, the German noun Arm is innocent and the etymology we give needs to be corrected. --Lambiam 15:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I’ve changed the etymology to “partial calque of English firearm”. --Lambiam 19:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- A leading apostrophe; a form of the apostrophe when it occurs at the beginning of a word.
Translingual. I have seen leading apostrophes in both old and new books but always as ’, never ‛. J3133 (talk) 18:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Saek.
No evidence is presented that this spelling has ever been used, nor any explanation of why any recorded pronunciation with the alleged meaning 'five' should be written in this extraordinary manner. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- This is correct written word and there are a lot of evidences. Since Seak has six tones (or seven but one is for fixing the right tone) so they need two more tone marks. I have all Saek orthography rules, dictionaries, and lores. They are defined many years ago. [63] See Fulltext.pdf page 62 for description. If you stick only with western authors, you won't see these. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Prematurely-created Mariupol Greek Greek spellings
[edit]Mariupol Greek. (As will probably be obvious from the section header.)
I created those by transliterating the Cyrillic entries for фукрум and яло, respectively, using the table in WT:GRK-MAR TR to convert Cyrillic into Greek script, assuming, rather naively, that this was a mechanical one-to-one conversion following the rules in the table.🤦♀️
I was quickly disabused of that notion.
Hence, listing the two ones I did create until advised otherwise here, to determine whether I managed to accidentally create the attested correct Greek spelling for these ones. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 15:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Whoop whoop pull up: I have found and added a quote for both. Mariupol Greek seems to have a surprisingly large corpus of books published in the '30s - makes me rethink the fact that we lemmatise at Cyrillic. Thadh (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- It has been brought to my attention by @Poursa0 on Discord that this isn't Mariupol Greek, but rather Demotic. So we're back to square one. Thadh (talk) 06:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Thai. Rfv-sense: Accipiter spp.
Word might mean "dove", according to Hippietrail. I looked up all five Accipiter species found in Thailand, according to Avibase, which has vernacular names in many languages, and didn't find any Thai terms. Some English vernacular names for predatory birds contain the name of their prey in their name, like goshawk and sparrowhawk. DCDuring (talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Non-domestic fowl normally prefix the classificatory word นก (nók, “bird”) to their names, as obscurely mentioned in the entry for เขา (kǎo). So Hippietrail is right about the word meaning 'dove', and googling finds plenty of confirmation for the meaning 'columbid'. However, if one looks up นกเขา
นin the Thai Royal Institute Dictionary, one will find it defined roughly as Accipiter, with the species A. trivirgatus, A. badius and A. gularis getting specific mention. The connection seems to be a similarity in plumage.- Fixed typo - spurious trailing no nu (น). --RichardW57 (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- The hawk seems to be normally called เหยี่ยวนกเขา, as can be seen in the Thai Wikipedia at https://th.wiktionary.org/wiki/เหยี่ยวนกเขา. Quiet Quentin's found one book with that longer word; and I've found a newspaper website page at https://www.matichon.co.th/prachachuen/prachachuen-scoop/news_1716240 - I'm not sure how good that it is; and an example in the Bible at https://www.bible.com/th/bible/174/JOB.39.26.THSV11. I couldn't find any examples of just นกเขา for 'hawk'. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
21 Old Uyghur lemmas. These were all added by @Anylai back in 2017/18, though all but one are unsourced. ʾβ is sourced, but the one that's available online uses a completely different orthography. Nothing shows up on Google, from what I've been able to tell.
It would also be good to bring any of these that can be verified in line with the rest of the language by converting them to the Old Uyghur script. It's understandable why these weren't, though, given it was only added to Unicode in 2021. Theknightwho (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: I did a few of these but I got bored. I think they all exist. One way to find citations is to go to the VATEC "corpus location query form" and enter the term (replacing each right half ring with a question mark, because otherwise it won't work). You then get a list of uses in texts and can click on the bolded chocolate-colored link to see the context, translation, etc. Let me know if you find one you cannot easily find attestations for using this method.
- It's also possible to search for them on Google or Google Books, replacing the right half rings with apostrophes. Unfortunately, a lot of the Google Books hits only show partial context, and there's no translation available to confirm the meaning, etc. 98.170.164.88 03:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: The Tether cryptocurrency, USDT.
Not seeing any uses of this as a currency symbol. Seems to be more of a branding thing. Theknightwho (talk) 12:30, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know but it is in Wikipedia [[w:Tether (cryptocurrency)]|--Hekaheka] (talk) 12:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is, but just because we can source them saying it's their currency sign doesn't mean it's actually used as one. Theknightwho (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- https://tether.to/en/transparency/#usdt 198.84.224.219 17:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Mongolian. Not convinced this is a suffix in Mongolian. There are borrowed terms like буддизм (buddizm) and коммунизм (kommunizm), but they come from Russian. Theknightwho (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Are there any native terms, namely (/possibly) neologisms, that use the suffix? How aware are speakers that this is a suffix? Vininn126 (talk) 21:34, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Between Монгол хэлний зөв бичих дүрмийн журамласан толь and Большой академический монгольско-русский словарь I've found 50 - all of them are Russian borrowings. However, I've found evidence of цэдэнбализм (cedenbalizm, “Tsedenbalism”), which I suspect was coined in Mongolian. Theknightwho (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Tagging @Bathrobe, who may be able to comment on this. Theknightwho (talk) 14:56, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Between Монгол хэлний зөв бичих дүрмийн журамласан толь and Большой академический монгольско-русский словарь I've found 50 - all of them are Russian borrowings. However, I've found evidence of цэдэнбализм (cedenbalizm, “Tsedenbalism”), which I suspect was coined in Mongolian. Theknightwho (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
September 2022
[edit]The Inupiaq numeral system presented here is consistent with the vigesimal system of this language for small numbers, but seems rather strange for very large numbers in the millions, billions or trillions. It seems that none (except for the smallest ones) is attested outside https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iñupiaq_numerals. 193.54.167.164 13:29, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- (@Kwamikagami since you added them) Honestly a very interesting number system, reminds me a lot of the Yorùbá number system. I looked for the source that's listed, "MacLean (2014) Iñupiatun Uqaluit Taniktun Sivuninit / Iñupiaq to English Dictionary, p. 840 ff", but I've been unable to without buying it or going to a physical library. I did find, though, "Edna Ahgeak MacLean (2012) Iñupiatun Uqaluit Taniktun Sivunniuġutiŋit North Slope Iñupiaq to English Dictionary, University of Alaska Fairbanks: Alaska Native Languages Archives", which seems to be a precursor to the prior source, and does have all the numbers cited. However, I don't have the energy right now to add them to every entry, so I'll leave it to y'all to decide if it's officially cited or not. AG202 (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- These are the numbers taught in schools. Though the language is moribund. kwami (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- The large numbers certainly aren't traditional. I imagine the language was extended to cover large numbers so that it would be adequate for science and mathematics. Something all languages with large numerals have done. kwami (talk) 04:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Zhuang. Etymology 2: "seaweed; algae" and "green (as seaweed or algae)". Added by @Octahedron80. I could not find this in 壮汉词汇 or 壮汉英词典. It might be a misinterpretation of 古壮字字典, where daeuh is given as a syllable that can be used with raez in the word daeuhraez; it does not show any independent use of daeuh. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- I believe it is from your source gave me in 2019, where I saw sawndips, that is now unavailable. My sources do not state it either. daeuhraez might be the right word. (and how is it formed?) --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- I found daeuh=blue (historical blue includes green) in Nong Zhuang [64] that should not be included in Zhuang; they are kind of different languages. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:12, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: I wonder if all the Zhuang varieties should be put under "Zhuang" (like "Chinese") or if we should actually separate them. I've been assuming that Zhuang functions the same way as Chinese in that it is a macrolanguage with all Zhuang varieties under it (with the appropriate labels for the regions). For example raemx seems to include most Zhuang varieties. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 23:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Nong Zhuang, Dai Zhuang, Zuojiang Zhuang have more consonants and vowels than Standard Zhuang. Northern Zhuang (in Northern Tai) and Southern Zhuang (in Central Tai) are not the same group; it is obviously not able to unify. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Narragansett, "string". I don't see this in A Key into the Language of America, which is the definitive source for this language. The only gloss involving the word "string" is "enomphómmin" ("to thread or string"). Where did this come from? Is it reconstructed? Is there a verifiable cognate in Massachusett or any other Algonquian language? (Was not able to find in the Massachusett-language Natick Dictionary, searching for 'string', 'rope', 'cord', 'thread'.) 98.170.164.88 02:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- According to the edit history, the entry was created because it was mentioned in the etymology of [[wampumpeag]] and [[wampum]]. Various English texts about etymology do give umpe or ompe as a word for string [of beads] in "Algonquian", usually specifically Narragansett or Massachusett, but obviously we need to see if it actually exists (on its own) in those languages. Wikipedia points to Dictionary.com for the statement that the PA form of wampumpeag was *wa·p-a·py-aki, so we're looking for a reflex of Reconstruction:Proto-Algonquian/-a·py, but while I can obviously find reflexes of the longer term *wa·p-a·py-aki / cognates of wampumpeag, like Abenaki wôbôbi, I haven't had time to check if there are any likely reflexes of *apy. It wouldn't surprise me if umpe only exists in the compound wampumpe- and not as a separate word (both *apy and its reflexes seem to often exist only in compounds). - -sche (discuss) 09:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
- If it's not directly attested in Roger Williams (or other colonial writings that document the language, if any exist), I think treating it in the reconstruction namespace is the way to go. 98.170.164.88 22:37, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Zuojiang Zhuang. Copied from Wikipedia. --沈澄心✉ 12:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Zuojiang Zhuang. Mentioned in vunz#Zhuang. --沈澄心✉ 13:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
October 2022
[edit]Old English. "Old English cyningrīċe" is only attested as kynyngrīches (genitive) in a ostensible charter of King Edward the Confessor. The OED states that the charter is "probably a forgery of the late 11th or early 12th cent.
". After a admittedly brief and superficial examination of the text, I concur with the OED and would lean towards a later dating; the text appears to be nothing more than Early Middle English sprinkled in with a few archaisms, which leaves us with with no basis for a entry at cyningrīċe. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 03:16, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hrrm Okay. Move to *cyningrīċe then ? There are cognates in Old Saxon kuningrīki, Old High German kuningríchi. Leasnam (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think the existence of Old English *cyningrīċe is certain enough to create such a form. Note that kingriche is barely attested in Early ME (which would be unexpected if it was a old formation, as words for "kingdom" and "authority" occur profusely in early ME texts) and the earliest attestations vary between forms in nominative king, genitive kinges, and dative kinge, suggesting a new and unsettled compound.
- Let me digress for a bit now. I don't think the OS and OHG forms are relevant here, given that they could be modifications of earlier Old Saxon *kunirīki and Old High German *kunirīhhi (attested as chuneriche) with replacement of the mysterious unproductive Proto-West Germanic *kuni- with reflexes of semantically transparent *kuning. Contrastingly, OE speakers wouldn't've felt the need to replace cynerīċe with *cyningrīċe because the reflex of *kuni- (cyne-) was still productive in that language. Further proof for this theory is that kingriche only starts to appear with any real frequency after kine- (the ME reflex of cyne-) ceased to be productive, suggesting that it it is a modification kineriche along similar lines. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 13:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hrm, alright. Well,
I'll probably still create a reconstruction for the OFS, OSX, GOH (*kuningarīkī) as a late remodelling of the original *kunirīkī. I think we should still leave the OE entry as an unrelated reconstruction though, since it's mentioned in so many places and folk will be looking for it, and no-doubt keep re-creating it if they do not find it. We can add a detailed Usage note explaining that it's most likely not real (?) Leasnam (talk) 17:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)- Okay, you've already made it. What do you make of Old Norse konungríki ? Calque, or independent formation ? Leasnam (talk) 19:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- We can use
{{no entry}}to dissuade people from creating cyningrīċe; no reconstruction page is needed for that purpose. As for Old Norse konungríki; I'm not sure about its status; I'd need more research into its attestation pattern to make a decision. Finally, I'll note that my theory about *kuningarīkī originally being *kunirīkī, while compelling (to me at least) is not something that I'm entirely dead-set on. It could be that *kuningarīkī is old (or at the very least a old remodelling) and was just lost in OE. It's even possible that there could've been a *cyningrīċe; the important thing is its existence isn't likely enough to justify sticking a stake in the ground by creating a reconstruction. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 19:22, 15 October 2022 (UTC)- I just took a look at the MED for king-riche. I think this is a borrowing/calque/partial-calque from Old Norse. Many of the forms are clearly Norse-like. Timeframe matches up as well. What do you think ? Leasnam (talk) 19:39, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hrm, alright. Well,
Pali.
What evidence do we have for this form? The etymological form is อคฺคฬ (aggaḷa), with a retroflex lateral. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- (1) ETipitaka Pali-Thai Dict & Pramaha Prasert Mantasevi's Thai-Pali Dict (2) Wisdom Library "Aggaḷa, & Aggaḷā (f.) (also occasionally with l.)" (3) Concise Pali-English Dictionary > shorturl.at/hnT27 sub dict // Single ฬ sometimes used as ล in many words, including the word 'Pali' itself. That's why I described there [65]. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:38, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: The only one of those sources of mentions that looks durably archived is Buddhadatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary, which I think screams out for the use of
{{LDL}}. At least the PTS directs one to actual usages. Unfortunately, I suspect Buddhadatta's entry is itself a misspelling, or rather a typo. The preface says, "In compiling this work I have constantly referred to the Pali-English Dictionary,...", so why does Buddhadatta's work omit aggaḷa? --RichardW57m (talk) 11:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC) - Keep. Now, it is possible that Buddhadatta's work is sufficiently important that his errors will be repeated in modern compositions. If such compositions are to be included in our coverage, then it is helpful to users to include them. Additionally, there are very probably Sinhalese Pali manuscripts that use the dental instead of the retroflex. Accordingly, I propose categorising the spelling with a dental as a misspelling. We therefore should not record it as an alternative form in the correctly spelt lemmas. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- I've created aggala and alternative citation forms aggalo and aggalaṃ, which all have the same evidentiary requirements as the challenged word. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- The heading "Aggaḷa, & Aggaḷā (f.) (also occasionally with l.)" comes from the PTS, but the remark with 'l' (which looks like an obscure abbreviation because of the full stop!) might only apply to the feminine form. Childers[1] gives the masculine and neuter forms with the retroflex, but the feminine with the dental. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC) RichardW57m (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: The only one of those sources of mentions that looks durably archived is Buddhadatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary, which I think screams out for the use of
References
[edit]- ^ Childers, Robert Caesar, Dictionary of the Päli language, London: Trübner & Company, 1875, page 8.
Pali.
What evidence do we have for this form? The etymological form is अग्गळ (aggaḷa), with a retroflex lateral. This entry was created by @Octahedron80, as was the challenged entry above. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Same as above. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Pali.
See #อคฺคล above. --RichardW57m (talk) 14:14, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Siraya. I know nothing about this language, but one of our resident Austronesian experts, User:Austronesier, has stated that "The Siraya word for 'person, people' is tau, not tayw. Siraya spelling was not standardized, but tau is among the words that never fluctuate in spelling.". Is there any support for the spelling tayw? 98.170.164.88 18:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Wiktionarian89: What's your take on this? (See also Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2022/October#Taiwan.) –Austronesier (talk) 20:07, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. This is made-up crap to bolster a rubbish etymology. –Austronesier (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Is the word taywan real? 98.170.164.88 23:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- I consider this one made-up, too. Real attested Siraya words that might be the source of "Taiwan" (like Taivoan) are trisyllabic ending in the sequence -v[o/u]an, not **-wan. –Austronesier (talk) 23:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Is the word taywan real? 98.170.164.88 23:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Persian. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 21:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- He also says that people of the city Termez in Uzbekistan refered to لوبیا (beans) as ژاژومک
- ...و اهل ترمد او را ژاژومک گویند...
- A site lists other forms of ژاژومک (dehkhoda and amid) and according to Amid dictionary it's an old Biology term:
- ژاژوک (žâžôk) (dehkhoda and amid)
- ژاژک (žâžok) (dehkhoda)
- Dehkhoda quotes a poem couplet with an unknown meaning he found in the Asadi Persian Lexicon attributed to poet "Abul-Abbas" (probably Abu'l-Abbas Marwazi)
- ماه کانون است ژاژک نتوانی بستن / هم از این کومک بر خشک و همی بند آن را
- Dehkhoda quotes a poem couplet with an unknown meaning he found in the Asadi Persian Lexicon attributed to poet "Abul-Abbas" (probably Abu'l-Abbas Marwazi)
- ژاژمک (žâžomak) (dehkhoda)
- ژژک (unknown pronunciation) (Amid)
- Note: I found that "ژاژ" means a "kind of camelthorn which camels find too tough to chew." probably not related but thought sharing. Light hearted sam (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Fenakhay added quotes on the page. Light hearted sam (talk) 17:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Old English. Not in the DOE and apparently unattested as a adverb (rather than a inflected form of ġeon). Bosworth-Toller has a entry for ġeonre (providing no quotes), but it probably originates from a misinterpretation of the aforementioned inflected form. In any case, the Middle English forms (such as Chaucer's yonder instead of *yondre) seem to indicate Old English *ġeonor, not ġeonre; the presence of epenthetic /d/ is no counterargument, as it can originate in contexts such as yonder and (/ˈjɔn(d)r‿an(d)/). Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 07:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. A search of the Dictionary of Old English Corpus yields only "Aris, & gong to geonre byrig;", which is certainly a declined form of geon.
- Perhaps yonder could also have developed from a comparative form of geond, i.e. geondor? Ythede Gengo (talk) 05:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Mid-Autumn Festival Nanuk and the Peas (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Navajo. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 21:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- This is the kind of thing that Stephen G. Brown and @Metaknowledge were always arguing about, because the former was a professional translator whose job was to come up with a translation, not to inform people about the patterns of usage or non-usage in a given language. @Eirikr, who has studied the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:38, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- I've actually taken notice of this problem back when Metaknowledge was still active. Without knowing a shred of Navajo, my opinion still is that absent any evidence that native speakers use these words (or even just understand them and deem them natural) we should not include them and I would hope this is the majority view here. Wiktionary is not a playground where people can publicize their inventions. If it actually is the case that these two terms are made up too, I would be pretty upset considering the traction they have gained on the internet. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- A few of those threads cite Wiktionary ([73], [74], [75]), so if this turns out to be unattestable, which remains to be seen, then we aren't completely blameless in the spread of dubious information. I think the bigger culprit may be Navajo Wikipedia, but I can't really fault them for using circumlocutions to describe things their language has no word for. It's not like they should be prevented from documenting concepts just because there's no word for them in printed Navajo dictionaries. As for what Navajo people would say in actual speech if they wanted to refer to a tank, I have no idea, but I'd be a little surprised if they always went with this exact phrase just because it happens to be the one used on nv.wikipedia and here. 98.170.164.88 01:32, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the Code talkers probably had a term for it, but that's not the same as use in ordinary Navajo text or speech. Still, there were a good number of Navajo veterans who no doubt would have talked about their experiences in the war. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Good point about the code talkers. For whatever it's worth, I found this word list, which says the code word for "tank" was "CHAY-DA-GAHI" ("tortoise"). I think this is chʼééh digháhii. As an aside, I wonder if it's worth incorporating the sense of "tank" into the entry in any way; it's not really normal language use, but code talking is probably among the most notable uses of the language and there are likely to be several references. (Are there even surviving recordings we could cite?)
- More to the point, if those Navajo veterans wrote books about their experiences in the Navajo language, we could consult those. If not, then I guess we could try to get in contact with a native speaker, preferably one who is unaffiliated with nv.wikipedia to avoid potential bias. CFI doesn't have a provision for adding words based on personal anecdotes that haven't been published, but I personally feel like a direct interview with a native speaker of a LDL may deserve at least as much weight as a Usenet post. At the very least, we could at least use the information to tell if removing this term is the right move. 98.170.164.88 03:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- To address your point about what word ordinary speakers would use, my strong suspicion that they’d simply use the word “tank”. Obviously the code talkers situation may affect things (did chʼééh digháhii become the conventional word?), but it seems unlikely that these lengthy terms could be anything other than a novelty. Theknightwho (talk) 18:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the Code talkers probably had a term for it, but that's not the same as use in ordinary Navajo text or speech. Still, there were a good number of Navajo veterans who no doubt would have talked about their experiences in the war. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- A few of those threads cite Wiktionary ([73], [74], [75]), so if this turns out to be unattestable, which remains to be seen, then we aren't completely blameless in the spread of dubious information. I think the bigger culprit may be Navajo Wikipedia, but I can't really fault them for using circumlocutions to describe things their language has no word for. It's not like they should be prevented from documenting concepts just because there's no word for them in printed Navajo dictionaries. As for what Navajo people would say in actual speech if they wanted to refer to a tank, I have no idea, but I'd be a little surprised if they always went with this exact phrase just because it happens to be the one used on nv.wikipedia and here. 98.170.164.88 01:32, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- I've actually taken notice of this problem back when Metaknowledge was still active. Without knowing a shred of Navajo, my opinion still is that absent any evidence that native speakers use these words (or even just understand them and deem them natural) we should not include them and I would hope this is the majority view here. Wiktionary is not a playground where people can publicize their inventions. If it actually is the case that these two terms are made up too, I would be pretty upset considering the traction they have gained on the internet. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- This is difficult to confirm in the wild, as indeed a lot of Navajo is. At the moment, the best I've found is an instance of use on this webpage from a Jehovah's Witness website: https://www.jw.org/nv/Naaltsoos-b%C3%A1-Hooghan/naaltsoos/watchtower-study-july-2021/Jiih%C3%B3vah-Ha%CA%BC%C3%B3ln%C3%ADn%C3%ADg%C3%AD%C3%AD-Be%CA%BC%C3%AD%C5%82%CA%BC%C4%B1%CC%81%CC%A8/
- The full phrase / term chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí isn't visible in the page text as rendered in the browser, but only in the alt text ona couple images -- view the source and search that to find the term. This appears a couple times in the source of the page, repetitions of the same sentence (emphasis mine):
1. Anaaʼ hólǫ́ǫgo siláo łaʼ chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí yikááʼ dah sidá, łaʼ éí bikééʼ joojah.
- Very rough translation: “There is a war and a soldier sits on top of a [tank / the thing that's a car that crawls about and has a cannon and people sit on it], and one [the generic "one"] runs along after it.”
- Notably, this is content from the Jehovah's Witnesses, a group that makes an effort to translate texts into the languages of the groups they are proselytizing, so it is unclear to me if the author was a native speaker. That said, this is an instance of the term used in running text, and for an WT:LDL, that might suffice.
- I agree that an effort should ideally be made to contact the community of people actually speaking Navajo and get their input. However, I haven't the contacts needed to engage in such an effort, nor do I have sufficient bandwidth for the foreseeable future. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:48, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Incredible find! I'm curious how you came across this, since it doesn't appear to be indexed by Google or even jw.org's own search engine. 98.170.164.88 17:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Re: finding it, I had a hunch that Google was doing something stupid. I noticed a lot more hits for the substring chidí naaʼnaʼí (“car that crawls around → tractor”), so I modified my search: google:"chidí naaʼnaʼí" "átʼé" -wiki -wikt -intermedia -wordsense -glosbe The second hit was the Watchtower page, which (confusingly) contains the exact long phrase chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí that Google was failing to find. HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- As it’s such a descriptive phrase, could it be that this was the original source? Or does Navajo commonly use lengthy descriptions as set terms? Theknightwho (talk) 18:08, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- The nv.wikipedia article dates to 5 July 2009, under a slightly different spelling (moved to the current title on 2 October 2009). The en.wiktionary entry was created 31 December 2009. On the other hand, the Watchtower article is from July 2021. 98.170.164.88 21:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- So it is. My bad. Theknightwho (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- The nv.wikipedia article dates to 5 July 2009, under a slightly different spelling (moved to the current title on 2 October 2009). The en.wiktionary entry was created 31 December 2009. On the other hand, the Watchtower article is from July 2021. 98.170.164.88 21:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Incredible find! I'm curious how you came across this, since it doesn't appear to be indexed by Google or even jw.org's own search engine. 98.170.164.88 17:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The form with "beeʼeldǫǫhtsoh" is given as an example of a descriptive noun phrase in the introduction to Young & Morgan's Navajo Language (1980), and as its own entry on page 272 of the same dictionary. Also in other editions of the same work. Here is even an article from Ádahooníłígíí, a Navajo-language newspaper, that uses the term. 98.170.164.88 03:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
November 2022
[edit]Gaulish, tagged but not listed. I assume the situation is that the term is attested (perhaps in a work designated as "Autun"?), but with unclear meaning. The referenced book says it "appears probable" that the second element means "seat" and relates it to sella and 𐍃𐌹𐍄𐌻𐍃 (sitls), but makes no attempt to interpret the first element. Can we get the context sentence into the entry, if it exists?__Gamren (talk) 10:00, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Czech. Sense: (dialectal) Beating or fighting stick (Word used to threaten with or initiate a fight)
I suspect this sense does not meet WT:ATTEST. @Kreyren. I will note for the newcomer that authoritative dictionaries do not count and that we need quotations in use and that they need to be from print (incl. Google Books) or from Usenet. If this gets deleted, the discussion will be archived to the entry talk page, so the hypothesis will be available there to the interested readers. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Dan_Polansky: Would agree the word prýgl is not well known as to my knowledge it was rarely used and too many people confuse prigl vs prýgl to mean Brno Reservoir. The only relevant source (beyond an expert opinion as hantec native and doing research locally) I could find is http://prigl.cz/brnaci/jak-vznikla-slova-prigl-borec-a-brno, thus why I argue that due to the nature and development of hantec it should receive a special treatment in terms of attesting to verify the words through historical references and co-relation to documented languages at the time like the one provided in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:prigl --Kreyren (talk) 10:35, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify: Because Hantec is very dynamic language as it's developed by natives who take a word they like and then make it sound like moravian-ish to then get situations when there are like 20+ terms for women breasts.. Thus the only sane approach should be to look into the origin of the word and contest it on the bases of history and linquistics. --Kreyren (talk) 10:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- The difference between "prigl" and "prygl" is merely in spelling: it is the same word. In so far as Hantec is an uncodified dialect, there is no "correct" spelling, and we have to look at actual use, consistent with WT:ATTEST. From normative perspective, one may note that "r" is usually followed by "y" and not "i", and from that standpoint, "prygl" and "prýgl" are preferable spellings, and this may explain why they are easier to find in print in Google Books. I added the sense of Brno Reservoir to prýgl since that is attested in use; whether someone considers it "wrong" is beside the point in a descriptivist dictionary such as Wiktionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- prigl vs prýgl are two very very very different words which are spelled differently and pronounced very differently like "jet basem na prigl" vs "Dostaneš prygle vole!" with notation on the "Y" in "prygle" to near english accent in nature. --Kreyren (talk) 02:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- The difference between "prigl" and "prygl" is merely in spelling: it is the same word. In so far as Hantec is an uncodified dialect, there is no "correct" spelling, and we have to look at actual use, consistent with WT:ATTEST. From normative perspective, one may note that "r" is usually followed by "y" and not "i", and from that standpoint, "prygl" and "prýgl" are preferable spellings, and this may explain why they are easier to find in print in Google Books. I added the sense of Brno Reservoir to prýgl since that is attested in use; whether someone considers it "wrong" is beside the point in a descriptivist dictionary such as Wiktionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Nothing refers to this. Not even close to Chinese. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:32, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- I found the word in ไคเภ็ก [76]. (ฮอกฮี is [77], transcribed from Hokkien.) Outside ไคเภ็ก: the Thai wikipedia page for นฺหวี่วา [78], and [79], [80], [81], [82] (spelling?). Not sure how much this word is used (instead of cite)? Thriftypapaya (talk) 17:30, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: androgyne, intersex (especially when male in appearance)
. This has been/is the target of some edit-warring which is probably best solved by adding supporting quotations. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 21:44, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- Just noting that this has been slightly redefined to "
androgyne, gender-neutral, intersex.
" but it still has no cites of use. It's sourced to a work by McElroy, which was also used to source some other supposedly-trans symbols which turned out to not actually be used, or to not even be in McElroy (see 2023 Info Desk). If we can't find actual evidence of use, we're probably best off removing it. - -sche (discuss) 06:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Navajo. An IP keeps changing this from "sea horse" to "zebra", the latter of which was removed here pursuant to this RFV. They've also created this tea room thread. Can somebody please look into the attestability of both terms? Thanks. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Pinging @Eirikr as the only active user knowledgeable in Navajo (that I know of). — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Navaho Language (1972) by Young & Morgan has this as "zebra", but it looks like it might not have a space between the components. 98.170.164.88 02:43, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- This 1980 edition, by the same authors, puts a space between the components, and gives three senses "water horse (mythological animal), zebra, sea[-]horse". This 1971 edition only gives "zebra". 98.170.164.88 02:52, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, I restored the zebra sense and added the spaceless alt-form (though that may have been a mistake, I'd prefer to wait for someone knowledgeable in Navajo before doing more edits). The other IP user also pointed to additional usable sources in the tea room thread. I added an older version (1943) of Young & Morgan to the entry because that is conveniently citable off of Google Books using your script. I don't know whether there's a standard
{{R:nv:...}}template for this reference. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 03:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)- I'm tempted to add
{{syn|nv|łį́į́ʼ noodǫ́ǫzii|lit=the striped horse}}based on this reference. 98.170.164.88 03:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm tempted to add
- Thank you, I restored the zebra sense and added the spaceless alt-form (though that may have been a mistake, I'd prefer to wait for someone knowledgeable in Navajo before doing more edits). The other IP user also pointed to additional usable sources in the tea room thread. I added an older version (1943) of Young & Morgan to the entry because that is conveniently citable off of Google Books using your script. I don't know whether there's a standard
- This 1980 edition, by the same authors, puts a space between the components, and gives three senses "water horse (mythological animal), zebra, sea[-]horse". This 1971 edition only gives "zebra". 98.170.164.88 02:52, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Belatedly, @Fytcha, thanks for the ping, but I would not have been of much help here. I've studied Navajo, but only a little from books and audio, and I have no contacts with native speakers. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Tagalog. Rfv-sense: Needs three attestations for this definition. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:27, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify: this RFV is for sense 1: lingam. Equinox ◑ 19:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Tagalog. Rfv-sense: Needs three attestations for this definition. This time for the definition "happy ending". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
December 2022
[edit]Russian. Rfv-sense: "Block Island". I can find use in Russian of остров Блок (ostrov Blok) and Блок-Айленд (Blok-Ajlend), but does this usage extend to Блок (Blok) on its own? In a quick search I wasn't able to find e.g. "на Блоке". Also, even if this sense does exist, someone should check the animacy (the word is currently marked as animate, but place names in Russian are generally inanimate). 98.170.164.88 00:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- The Russian Wikipedia seems to have article titles for all but one of the New England islands indexed as simple titles, as seen at w:ru:Категория:Острова_Род-Айленда. Presumably the same is true outside New England. Whether this reflects actual speech in Russian, or an idiosyncracy of the Russian Wikipedia, I dont know. —Soap— 23:59, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- Don’t these uses of “Блок” in the combination “остров Блок”[83][84][85] count as attestations, just like in English the use of “Bali” in the combination “the island of Bali” should qualify? --Lambiam 11:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, yeah, I did find use in such contexts but wasn't sure it counted. If Russian-language editors think it should count, then I'm fine with it.
- Another example where "остров" is an essential part of the name is остров Принца Эдуарда (ostrov Princa Eduarda), and it would be weird to put that under Принца Эдуарда (Princa Eduarda). There are also остров Врангеля (ostrov Vrangelja) and остров Колгуев (ostrov Kolgujev). I think остров Блок (ostrov Blok) is similar to these in that it is always preceded by остров and the word Блок itself doesn't get inflected. But I could be wrong. A dissimilarity with these other examples is that they have the name of the island in the genitive, but OTOH two of them are originally surnames, which also applies here. 98.170.164.88 13:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Russian: I can't find references to either of those two meanings. The dictionaries I have available give the translations "to get lost", "to be astray". 78.69.121.4 20:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- @78.69.121.4: The senses given were right but it's hard to understand without a context and more examples. I've expanded a bit and added some usage examples for senses you may have doubts. It's a verb with many meanings. Also @Tetromino, Thadh, Benwing2: please see if it needs further improvement. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:37, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
RFV-passedNyuhn (talk)- @Nyuhn: Not one quote has been added to the entry, until every sense gets at least three quotes (/references), they are technically not RFV-passed. Thadh (talk) 15:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- These senses are widespread. I've added couple of quotes. There are lot more on ruscorpora. Nyuhn (talk) 16:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Various supposed Serbo-Croatian given names
[edit]Please see Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English#Slavic given names created by 2601:243:1400:74cf:896a:14b8:9f7f:8d7e. This is a cross-post because all of the entries have sections for both English and Serbo-Croatian, and the question is whether they exist at all or are completely made up. Thanks, 70.172.194.25 00:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"ČR" is a well-established abbreviation for Česká repubilka, "Czech Republic" and this meaning absolutely prevails. The names of the other three republics do begin with the same letters in Czech language, but the frequency of the usage of those other republic names is extremely small compared to the frequency of the usage of "Czech Republic", so that the abbreviation ČR meaning "Chechen Republic” etc. would have to be explained in context. I sincerely doubt that the abbreviation "ČR" is used in the sense of Chechen Republic” etc. Amsavatar (talk) 16:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- (A helpful IP has added two cites to the sense ROC and one to the Chuvash Republic.) - -sche (discuss) 04:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Ancient Greek. Rfv-sense: “perhaps also ox”. --Lambiam 08:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Does the fact it's used in the Septuagint to translate Hebrew שׁוֹר (šôr, “ox”) count? See e.g. Exod. 21:35, "ἐὰν δὲ κερατίσῃ τινὸς ταῦρος τὸν ταῦρον τοῦ πλησίον, καὶ τελευτήσῃ, ἀποδώσονται τὸν ταῦρον […] " in the LXX, "ox" in the vast majority of English translations though Strong's glosses it as "ox, bull, a head of cattle" [86]. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:39, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Seems this is also the case in the New Testament, without Hebrew interference: almost every translation gives "oxen" for ταῦροί in Matt. 22:4, cf. also this reference. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've added the quote and translation from the standard critical editions of Matthew and I've noted that Bauer's New Testament lexicon says the same thing about the word, so I'll call this cited. I've changed "perhaps" to a non-gloss note "chiefly as a sacrificial animal" per Bauer. A separate question, which might need further research, is whether the sense should be explicitly tagged as Koine. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. A complication is that English ox has two distinguishable senses: (1) a male bovine, used as a draught animal, typically gelded – as such a hyponym of bull; (2) any bovine animal – as such a hypernym of bull. In Modern Greek, ταύρος (távros) is strictly a bull, so one wonders if this sense as a sacrificial animal is indeed specifically Koine. --Lambiam 12:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- By Lev. 22:24, a gelded bull could not be used as a sacrificial animal. Is that relevant here? --Lambiam 12:43, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Navajo, meaning "Star Wars". The headword is given as "Sǫʼtah Anaaʼ", but the page title is "Sǫʼtah Anah". But are either of these even attested? And even if they are attested, do we really want an entry for this (cf. WT:NSE, etc.)? 70.172.194.25 18:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Apparently there is a Navajo dub of the original 1977 film, which may bolster the case for inclusion, although I'm still not sure. Which spelling did they use, btw? This article uses "Anah", but this one uses "Anaaʼ" (in an image). 70.172.194.25 19:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
January 2023
[edit]Old Prussian terms
[edit]Old Prussian. Possible only (re-)constructed and not attested. --01:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- The attested forms may be abglopte, abklopte, and/or abgloyte. Cf. [87], [88]. Also see Altpreussische Monatsschrift, vol. 7, p. 594, Chronicon Prussiae. I'm not exactly sure where all those variants came from. Different copies of the manuscript? Regardless, the exact spelling abglābti isn't attested. 70.172.194.25 02:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Additionally, Nesselmann as well as Pierson in Altpreußische Monatsschrift give another meaning. --10:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- RfV failed. --07:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
bhe is attested with the meaning "and". There are other attested variations, but be doesn't seem to be one of them. [89] [90]
bhe is also attested with the meaning "without", but again be is not attested in this sense. [91].
The exact spelling be is apparently only attested with the meaning "was" (to be, past tense). [92] [93] 70.172.194.25 02:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- BTW: bhe got created. --10:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- RfV failed. --07:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Especially because of the "New"; maybe cp. [94]. --05:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- So basically this should be an adjective form (feminine accusative singular) referring to an ethnicity instead of a proper noun referring to a language, and the definition needs to be changed accordingly. AFAICT the capitalization and diacritic should stay as they are though, unlike what Nesselmann has. See [95]. The reason I like the VU site is that it's really easy to see a scan of the original attestations, just click the red links and then the little icon next to "Faksimilė". 70.172.194.25 05:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- BTW: Prūsiskan (adjective form) got created. --10:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- RfV failed. --07:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
This is real and should be in mainspace but without the macron. "ter kai" occurs here, and elsewhere this occurs as part of the phrase "ter ains". 70.172.194.25 05:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Given explanation is: „denn – tik“, but the terms have different meanings. Nesselmann translates it as als (“as; than”); Berneker doesn't have it. In the passage it should correspond to German denn, and so tik and only, just, merely seem to be wrong translations. --09:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, good point noting the discrepancy. The original passage in the Enchiridion where the interpretation is under dispute translates to something like "and that he may not be helped in any other way / than that he was born new through baptism out of God". It seems like only would also fit in that gap and express the same meaning; not all languages express the same idea using a direct word-for-word translation. For example, compare this interlinear translation of the Old Prussian (also by Mažiulis, but shows that he must have intentionally translated it this way). And in "ter ains" (allein - tik vien - only one / alone) in particular, it seems to be much easier to explain its function as an adverb meaning "only" than as a comparative conjunction meaning "than". There's also an external Baltic etymological argument for thinking it may have this meaning; see
{{R:bat:CPMBL|page=288}}[96]. So I think the meaning "only"/"merely" is probably defensible and includable, but we should maybe also include a note discussing this. 70.172.194.25 20:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)- Like CPMBL,
{{R:lt:LEW|head=tè|page=1071}}[97] glosses ter as German nur ("only") and compares it to the Lithuanian te, te-. So this seems to be the most common interpretation among Balticists. - This recent paper OTOH offers a seemingly different etymological comparison. I have no idea how accepted the theory outlined here is, but Petit sees Prussian -er- as an equivalent morpheme to what Lithuanian and Latvian have as -i(e)k-. The theory relates to the well-known system of Baltic correlatives in t- and k-. But to get to the point, even this idiosyncratic paper glosses *ter as 'so much, only' (adding the asterisk, perhaps not noticing that ter is actually attested outside of the construction ter ains?); which makes sense because it would be t- + -er, equivalent to Lithuanian t- + -ik = tik. 70.172.194.25 23:14, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Like CPMBL,
- Oh, good point noting the discrepancy. The original passage in the Enchiridion where the interpretation is under dispute translates to something like "and that he may not be helped in any other way / than that he was born new through baptism out of God". It seems like only would also fit in that gap and express the same meaning; not all languages express the same idea using a direct word-for-word translation. For example, compare this interlinear translation of the Old Prussian (also by Mažiulis, but shows that he must have intentionally translated it this way). And in "ter ains" (allein - tik vien - only one / alone) in particular, it seems to be much easier to explain its function as an adverb meaning "only" than as a comparative conjunction meaning "than". There's also an external Baltic etymological argument for thinking it may have this meaning; see
RFV-resolved, although I wonder whether the two senses couldn't be unified by glossing it as English "but", which can be used both for "only" ("there is but one") and "other than" ("no god but God"). 70.172.194.25 00:36, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The Ancient Greek word σάτρα is currently given as comic Old Persian for 'gold', and is found in both LSJ and Bailly. However, a 2004 article by Andreas Willi puts forth a compelling argument that the line (Ar. Ach. 100) from which this word is taken, should rather be segmented as ἱ αρταμαν' εξαρξα ν[ι]απισσ' ο[υ]ασ' ατρα. He takes ατρα to represent Old Median *aθrā 'here, then'. If this interpretation is accepted, the page for σάτρα should be deleted. What do you think? AntiquatedMan (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- @AntiquatedMan: If it's in standard dictionaries, we should keep it, but we can add a usage note explaining the modern alternative explanation. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:16, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- That seems to be a good road, yeah. What should I do with the alternative reading of the line? Obviously it can't remain as a quotation, as it does not show the stated definition of 'gold', but I do want to include it somewhere. AntiquatedMan (talk) 07:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- It can be in the usage note. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- That seems to be a good road, yeah. What should I do with the alternative reading of the line? Obviously it can't remain as a quotation, as it does not show the stated definition of 'gold', but I do want to include it somewhere. AntiquatedMan (talk) 07:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
This is obviously morphologically incompatible with our Proto-Brythonic reconstruction. The inscription containing this name has case endings; in our reconstruction they're gone already. It's clearly not in the same language as our Proto-Brythonic and thus shouldn't be sorted under "Proto-Brythonic". — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 22:15, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Also the etymology line is clearly anachronistic. It’s weird seeing the form being derived from clearly much younger lemmas. // Silmeth @talk 22:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- In retrospect, probably better to give it a Proto-Celtic header with a Brythonic label. --Skiulinamo (talk) 02:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Done. I had to make Proto-Celtic attested tho. --Skiulinamo (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- ...It's not Proto-Celtic either. Not only is Proto-Celtic itself dated too early for the inscription to be Proto-Celtic (the inscription was written around Roman times), the inscription itself has the wrong accusative singular ending (-in instead of -am). It is almost certainly not attested Proto-Celtic. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 03:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- At some point, granularity just becomes pedantic and makes fools of us all. --Skiulinamo (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your move also caused technical problems (we'll continue this at Beer Parlor). — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:27, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- It should certainly be put under ‘Brittonic’, it’s much to late to be Proto-Celtic. That’s just a fact, it’s not pedantic, it’s just correct. You wouldn’t put a French noun under ‘Latin’… Silurhys (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- At some point, granularity just becomes pedantic and makes fools of us all. --Skiulinamo (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- ...It's not Proto-Celtic either. Not only is Proto-Celtic itself dated too early for the inscription to be Proto-Celtic (the inscription was written around Roman times), the inscription itself has the wrong accusative singular ending (-in instead of -am). It is almost certainly not attested Proto-Celtic. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 03:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Done. I had to make Proto-Celtic attested tho. --Skiulinamo (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- As we're discussing in another thread here, Proto-Brittonic/Brittonic should be a daughter of Proto-Celtic and the hypothetical parent of Brittonic (attested from the 4th/3rd century BC and lasting until the mid 6th century AD, when it gave way to Neo-Brittonic). Uindiorix dates to the Brittonic period and should be labeled as Brittonic. Wiktionary ridiculously calls Archaic Neo-Brittonic (mid-5th century AD through the end of the 8th century AD) "Proto-Brythonic"; both inaccurate and idiosyncratic, as no professional Celticist uses this term to refer to Neo-Brittonic. M.Aurelius.Viator (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
I've moved it back to Proto-Brythonic. It's true that attested Proto-Brythonic forms don't match up with our reconstructed forms, but we call them both Proto-Brythonic anyway. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Proto-Brythonic. Attested in Latin ADIXOUI DEUINA DEIEDA ANDAGIN UINDIORIX CUAMENAI, but - in the same vain as Artognou - that seems to make it a Latin transcription of a Proto-Brythonic name, and not a Proto-Brythonic term in its own right. Theknightwho (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: You are technically right if it is a Latin sentence, so this page would have to be split into a Latin page and a Proto-Brythonic reconstruction. But the inscription’s language has been controverted. So it could be an Undetermined language lemma as some other names including ΒΟΥΗΛΑ. There would be no gain in information with either option. Technically it is an attested term with arguable header attribution. Fay Freak (talk) 17:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak I would prefer to have the Proto-Brythonic entry at a reconstructed normalised spelling, with a Latin entry at Uindiorix that states it's a Latin transcription of the Proto-Brythonic name. That would keep the distinction clear, better matches the expectations of users who work in one language or the other, and also leaves room for discussion as to what the best normalised form actually is. Theknightwho (talk) 17:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho, as a minute of research would tell anyone, the sentence Uindiorix is attested in is today universally agreed upon by scholars to be in Celtic, not Latin. The only question is if it's too old to fit in how we on the project define Proto-Brythonic, and not dialectal Proto-Celtic. @Mahagaja --
{{victar|talk}}22:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)- The sentence isn't Latin at all. The clearest evidence is found in the lexeme andagin, composed of an- "un" and dagin "good (accusative)". Kwékwlos (talk) 11:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho, as a minute of research would tell anyone, the sentence Uindiorix is attested in is today universally agreed upon by scholars to be in Celtic, not Latin. The only question is if it's too old to fit in how we on the project define Proto-Brythonic, and not dialectal Proto-Celtic. @Mahagaja --
- @Fay Freak I would prefer to have the Proto-Brythonic entry at a reconstructed normalised spelling, with a Latin entry at Uindiorix that states it's a Latin transcription of the Proto-Brythonic name. That would keep the distinction clear, better matches the expectations of users who work in one language or the other, and also leaves room for discussion as to what the best normalised form actually is. Theknightwho (talk) 17:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Skalvian. RFV-term, appears on Reconstruction:Proto-Balto-Slavic/tewas. Is this language even attested at all? For some reason, extinct Baltic languages are a magnet for questionable additions. The person who originally added this also included Sudovian, Old Curonian, and Kursenieki.
- Sudovian is barely attested, only in one word list (that scholars aren't even sure is Sudovian) and a few short sentences from one medieval book (that are likely actually Old Prussian, and academic Old Prussian dictionaries treat them as such, e.g. [98]). The form they added for Sudovian, "tove", was apparently an unattested invention of Suduva.com; I have replaced it with an attested spelling from the word list.
- Old Curonian is in a similar situation, only having one representative text (which isn't even securely identified as Curonian), but possibly a great deal of words could be legitimately academically reconstructed from onomastics and the significant regional influence it had on Lithuanian/Samogitian and Latvian. Luckily, the one purportedly Old Curonian text is the Pater Noster, so the word for father is attested ("thewes"), but it doesn't even match the spelling added by the user ("thæwæs", which has no other hits on Google) unless I'm missing something.
- Kursenieki is definitely attested, and even has two living speakers, but it's still rare so it nonetheless sets off a bit of an alarm. The particular Kursenieki form "teve" may be attested, as searching for "teve mūses" on Google brings up some hits, mostly various Wikipedias and one 2017 self-published ebook (funnily enough cited on w:lv:Kursenieku_valoda, but surely an instance of citogenesis since the text has been on de.wikipedia since 2012), but I have no idea the original source/authenticity of this Pater Noster translation. ALEW, which I trust more but still isn't an ideal source, gives "têvs" as the Kursenieki cognate of Lithuanian "tėvas". Dictionaries and texts in the language exist but I don't think I can access any of them. The form is superficially plausible, although I have to wonder whether "teve" is supposed to be the vocative instead of the nominative (lemma form), which I would have expected to end in -s. For example, the Lithuanian Pater Noster starts with "tėve mūsų", instead of the lemma form "tėvas". But in Latvian, of which Kursenieki is a dialect, the nominative and vocative are both "tēvs", so IDK.
70.172.194.25 00:07, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Burmese. Created by a vandal. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:04, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- This Twitter post makes me think the term might be real. Dunno about the etymology. Whether it's citable to our standards, IDK either. The current citation is terrible (the title of a random YouTube video consisting of various clips of dancing women; the word isn't even spoken in the video, nor is any word other than "one, two, three, four"(?) at the start). 70.172.194.25 21:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
February 2023
[edit]Ancient Greek.
I can't find any evidence of this, but I don't have access to good resources on Ancient Greek proper nouns. Given the religious proscriptions on use of the Divine Name, I'm skeptical, but I don't know enough about Koine usage to be sure. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:26, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hellenistic Jewish writers still needed a form to write, as יהוה is, and those proscriptions don't exist for non-Jewish sources, cf. the citations at Ἰαω, so there's nothing inherently implausible about it on purely religious grounds. This particular form is quite difficult to track down, though. The claim at Iehova that it's attested in the Gnostic Pistis Sophia (which survives only in Coptic in any case) appears to stem from an earlier Wikipedia misinterpretation of Charles William King's 19th-century study The Gnostics and Their Remains, which, while discussing the Pistis Sophia, mysteriously states that "The author of the 'Treatise on Interpretations' says, 'The Egyptians express the name of the Supreme Being by the seven Greek vowels ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ'". (Wikipedia now correctly states "Charles William King attributes [it] to a work that he calls On Interpretations", but previously ascribed it to the Pistis Sophia.) Unfortunately King gives no indication at all as to what the 'Treatise on Interpretations' is, and it's never mentioned again. So I'm inclined to delete this, in the absence of any better evidence. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think the place to look for this would be the Greek Magical Papyri, which are absolutely littered with all sorts of theonyms, including many variations on the Tetragrammaton, as well as all sorts of ‘magical’ sequences of the seven Greek vowels. I haven’t found this exact form myself with a cursory glance, but if it would be anywhere, that would be the most likely set of texts to search. (Also note that King refers to ‘the Egyptians’; the Magical Papyri themselves originate in Greco-Roman Egypt.) Another source that may have some information about where this comes from, if anyone can dig it up, is Gesner’s 1746 De laude dei per septem vocales; various more modern books refer to this when discussing this particular form. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Edit: I’ve dug up the above-mentioned treatise by Gesner; it can be found on p.245 of this work (Commentarii Societatis Regiae Scientiarum Gottingensis vol. 1). Unfortunately I don’t think my Latin and Greek are quite up to the task of wading through it, but if someone else wants to give it a try, perhaps there might be some useful references there. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I found ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ (in all caps) on page 254 of Gesner's thesis, but the thesis is written in Latin, and the term is only mentioned, not used. I don't know whether this is sufficient for inclusion. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:08, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not per WT:CFI: "one use in a contemporaneous source". Io. Matthias Gesnerus lived in the 17th/18th century; Greek ended in the 15th century (developed/degenerated into New Greek). If Gesnerus would quote some old text (maybe now lost/destroyed), it could pass; but not if it's just Gesnerus.--08:09, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- I found ΙΕΗΩΟΥΑ (in all caps) on page 254 of Gesner's thesis, but the thesis is written in Latin, and the term is only mentioned, not used. I don't know whether this is sufficient for inclusion. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:08, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Edit: I’ve dug up the above-mentioned treatise by Gesner; it can be found on p.245 of this work (Commentarii Societatis Regiae Scientiarum Gottingensis vol. 1). Unfortunately I don’t think my Latin and Greek are quite up to the task of wading through it, but if someone else wants to give it a try, perhaps there might be some useful references there. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think the place to look for this would be the Greek Magical Papyri, which are absolutely littered with all sorts of theonyms, including many variations on the Tetragrammaton, as well as all sorts of ‘magical’ sequences of the seven Greek vowels. I haven’t found this exact form myself with a cursory glance, but if it would be anywhere, that would be the most likely set of texts to search. (Also note that King refers to ‘the Egyptians’; the Magical Papyri themselves originate in Greco-Roman Egypt.) Another source that may have some information about where this comes from, if anyone can dig it up, is Gesner’s 1746 De laude dei per septem vocales; various more modern books refer to this when discussing this particular form. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
Polish. Wikipedia articles don't count. Vininn126 (talk) 18:28, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia articles don't count as cites, but it's worth noting that both that article as well as ziarnojadek's refer to the Jagiellonian University's Complete Checklist of the Birds of the World, so it might be worth looking somewhere there. Hythonia (talk) 11:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Polish. Wikipedia articles don't count. Vininn126 (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- It's been some time, but I found this, for whatever it's worth. Hythonia (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
As an inhabitant of West Bengal and a native speaker of Bengali, I don't think I have ever heard of these terms. I found nothing like these in Bengali-language publications in West Bengal, including Anandabazar Patrika, Bartaman etc. So far, I have found words like বীরভূমবাসী and বর্ধমানবাসী, which are demonyms of বীরভূম and বর্ধমান respectively. --Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 06:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Rfv-sense: Does the feminine of the present participle santa have this form? --RichardW57m (talk) 13:43, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Translingual. Synonym of :D
Isn't this an alternative form of :P or :p? Theknightwho (talk) 06:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Uh, this is difficult, how would you distinguish in quotes? Both are asumed faces. It is sure though that in some cases it is the former due to typing so lazily as to omit pressing the shift key. Fay Freak (talk) 11:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Tbh I usually see it used with a bit more irony cheekiness, :d is more like :v. :D is usually just expressing joy. Vininn126 (talk) 12:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Then let's forgo defining it as “synonym of” aught and relegate the uncertainties, concerning which actual symbols it is related to, to the etymology. Fay Freak (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Did we all see the comment on Talk:Unsupported_titles/:d? Because I was skeptical too. I dont play that game but the explanation makes sense. And, as for other online games ... I can see how an originally capitalized emoticon could evolve to lowercase for ease of typing in a fast-paced video game, especially these days when we rely so much on more colorful emojis. —Soap— 10:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Then let's forgo defining it as “synonym of” aught and relegate the uncertainties, concerning which actual symbols it is related to, to the etymology. Fay Freak (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Tbh I usually see it used with a bit more irony cheekiness, :d is more like :v. :D is usually just expressing joy. Vininn126 (talk) 12:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Rfv-sense: swim
Pali. Rfv-sense: float
I can't find this meaning in any dictionaries, and I've looked in PTS, Childers, Maung Tin and Buddhadatta. Wiktionary does have this meaning for the cognate Sanskrit तरति (tarati). The meaning was added for Pali by @LolPacino. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Dutch. I think it's still German. PUC – 12:13, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- @PUC There are plenty of uses in Dutch texts and they have already been added to Wiktionary at Citations:Befehl ist Befehl long before this RFV was started, so I am not sure what more ought be done in terms of attestation/verification. Is there a clear litmus test for when a borrowed phrase is genuinely borrowed, and when it is just quotation/code switching/whatever? For the record, my opinion is that this phrase Dutch in the same way c'est la vie is English. The phrase is very well known and regularly used. I think the existence of spellings such as Befehl is Befehl also indicate nativization. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Several cites there are only mentionings (cp. Use–mention distinction). But apart from that, it can be a Dutch phrase, just like the mentioned English c'est la vie. --08:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Nonetheless at least 3 of those, from a quick glance, are uses and not mentionings. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 08:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Several cites there are only mentionings (cp. Use–mention distinction). But apart from that, it can be a Dutch phrase, just like the mentioned English c'est la vie. --08:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
March 2023
[edit]- Discussion moved to WT:RFDR.
An unadapted English loanword in the extinct language Cochimi of western Mexico. The cactus was given this name in English at just about the time when Cochimi was going extinct, so I wonder if it's even meaningful to say whether the word is or not part of the language. It's also a bit strange that a language native to the cactus' habitat would need to borrow from English to describe it, so it's possible this is an error of some kind and that the scientist never intended boojum to be part of the Cochimi language. The Spanish and Nahuatl wiktionaries also list this word as belonging to two other languages of the area, so for those who edit other wikis, this RFV could be applied to those languages as well. —Soap— 12:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
Kashubian. Gołąbk lists as hôk, I propose the entry be moved. Vininn126 (talk) 22:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Kashubian. Vininn126 (talk) 14:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Thai. Rfv-sense: a transgender woman.
As a (native) Thai speaker, I have never found anyone using the term to refer to any transgender woman. Also, a Google search did not return any use of the term in such a sense. --Asembleo (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
I tried myself to verify the existence of this name but I was unable to find anything reliable on it, I've also never seen it in any charters or the Domesday Book and to my knowledge the element ǣdre isn't used in any other Old English names. Pirsicola T. (talk) 22:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Lisu. This doesn't make sense within the Fraser script orthography, and I can't find any evidence of it online. The "transliteration" is very clearly taken from A Dictionary of the Northern Dialect of Lisu, but in actual fact that uses a separate Latin orthography altogether that follows quite different rules.
I suspect this was simply copied from the Chinese Wiktionary. Theknightwho (talk) 04:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
April 2023
[edit]amori appears to be intransitive. See for example the Reta Vortaro, where they list active but not passive participles, and the example:
- se edzo opiniis, ke lia edzino amoris kun alia, sed ne havis pruvon, tiam li iris kun sia edzino al la templo
with intransitive "amoris kun alia" rather than transitive "amori alian".
If this is the case, then the 27 passive inflections in the following table should be deleted. (I thought it would be disruptive to tag them individually for verification.)
|
present | past | future | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| singular | plural | singular | plural | singular | plural | ||
| tense | amoras | amoris | amoros | ||||
| active participle | amoranta | amorantaj | amorinta | amorintaj | amoronta | amorontaj | |
| acc. | amorantan | amorantajn | amorintan | amorintajn | amorontan | amorontajn | |
| passive participle | amorata | amorataj | amorita | amoritaj | amorota | amorotaj | |
| acc. | amoratan | amoratajn | amoritan | amoritajn | amorotan | amorotajn | |
| nominal active participle | amoranto | amorantoj | amorinto | amorintoj | amoronto | amorontoj | |
| acc. | amoranton | amorantojn | amorinton | amorintojn | amoronton | amorontojn | |
| nominal passive participle | amorato | amoratoj | amorito | amoritoj | amoroto | amorotoj | |
| acc. | amoraton | amoratojn | amoriton | amoritojn | amoroton | amorotojn | |
| adverbial active participle | amorante | amorinte | amoronte | ||||
| adverbial passive participle | amorate | amorite | amorote | ||||
| infinitive | amori | imperative | amoru | conditional | amorus | ||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
kwami (talk) 22:03, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Cebuano. Imagine an alternate history in which Russia invaded the Philippines instead of Spain. Sounds like @Carl Francis lives there. Kwékwlos (talk) 12:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are citations at Citations:Vladimir. I don't know whether they are durably archived. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Polish. Partial verification request for the definition. Kaci is the relational adjective of the noun kat, which has two distinct meanings: literal, "executioner," and figurative, "tormentor." It's pretty easy to find usage of the noun in the figurative sense, but I can't seem to find occurences of kaci as relating to it, only to the literal meaning (especially in collocations like kaci topór — executioner's axe, kaci kaptur — executioner's hood, etc.). Hythonia (talk) 13:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Notably, WSJP clearly states it only relates to "executioner". Vininn126 (talk) 13:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Quote from [99] (1840): "Kiedy miano czarownice i czarowników próbować torturami, kaci zabobonnicy i guslarze wielcy, golili im na sam przód włosy" (English: "When witches and sorcerers were to be tried by torture, tormenting superstitious [people] and great guslars shaved their hair first."). Here "kaci" is definitely used as an adjective from "kat" in the sense of "tormentor", and not "executioner", but still the meaning is literal.
- In another example, we can see contemporary usage in the figurative sense, but it's just a random quote from the internet, and a kind of poetry, so it may not adhere to the strict language rules: [100].
- Still, I believe "kaci" is just a standard creation of an adjective from a noun "kat", so there is no reason why we shouldn't use it in all possible senses. It's just rare, so it's hard to find examples. Olaf (talk) 10:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Olaf Per our WT:CFI, each definition needs three examples, just just the entry as a whole. If the only definition is "of or relating to a executioner", we need three examples of that. Vininn126 (talk) 10:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I thought this discussion is about meaning of "kaci" as "of or relating to a tormentor", because "of or relating to an executioner" is already well confirmed with dictionaries. So here is the third quotation in which "kaci" is definitely used in a figurative sense: https://www.google.pl/books/edition/Wi%C4%99%C5%BA/m25IAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=kaciego&dq=kaciego&printsec=frontcover Olaf (talk) 10:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Hythonia As the lister. Vininn126 (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Two examples more:
- [101], look for "kacia": "Lecz czy dzielić się musiał wymiotem? Skąd ta wiedza, ta pewność kacia, ze stojąc pod płotem sam nie grzęźnie po uszki otulon swych projekcji błotem?" - refers to an unpleasant situation, but not an execution.
- [102], look for "kaciej", second item: "w pewnym momencie poczujesz bunt, potem nienawiść do swego krzywdziciela, a nawet chęć zemsty. Dążąc do ich realizacji "przyobleczesz szaty" kata, by w kolejnym żywocie odpłacić się temu człowiekowi za wszelkie krzywdy, jakie ci uczynił. Po pewnym okresie swej kaciej działalności może pojawić się poczucie winy."
- Olaf (talk) 11:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Two examples more:
- @Hythonia As the lister. Vininn126 (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- I thought this discussion is about meaning of "kaci" as "of or relating to a tormentor", because "of or relating to an executioner" is already well confirmed with dictionaries. So here is the third quotation in which "kaci" is definitely used in a figurative sense: https://www.google.pl/books/edition/Wi%C4%99%C5%BA/m25IAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=kaciego&dq=kaciego&printsec=frontcover Olaf (talk) 10:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- (Sorry, this took a bit to type up, the reply interface lags a lot on this page.) @Olaf: Addressing the latter part, I was a bit unsure about this request, yeah. It is a rather standard derivative, so maybe the definition was fine like that? Still, I was slightly alarmed by the fact WSJP lists two definitions for kat ("executioner" and "tormentor"), whereas for kaci it specifies that it refers to the sense "executioner", so I felt that it's better to be safe than sorry.
- The latter two examples seem fine; the first, hm. It seems ambiguous? It might be employing the adjective, but given it speaks of what's happening during an execution, it seems more likely that it's a noun concord (i.e. two nouns -- kat zabobonnik in the singular -- because, like, there would assumedly be torturers present, and they'd be superstitious as well). I don't know if the Criteria for Inclusion would allow the second quote, but at the very least it's proof the word's used that way. Hythonia (talk) 11:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, oops -- never mind. Hadn't seen your last comment prior to typing this up. Yeah, this looks like a closed case. Thank you. Hythonia (talk) 11:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Olaf Per our WT:CFI, each definition needs three examples, just just the entry as a whole. If the only definition is "of or relating to a executioner", we need three examples of that. Vininn126 (talk) 10:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English#یوگیہ.
Urdu. This word must be kept on! This word is found on Hindustani Dictionary. — This unsigned comment was added by গহীনঅরণ্য (talk • contribs) at 9:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC).
- @গহীনঅরণ্য: The original RFD nomination, which I have changed to RFV, says "Not Urdu. Transliteration of योग्य (yogya)." Urdu is only half of Hindustani, and it is not just Hindi spelled with a different script. We need to see evidence that this is used in Urdu, not just Hindi. Chuck Entz (talk) 10:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
May 2023
[edit]Thai. Unattested at all. No usage of the term is found anywhere. Google search returned no usage of this term. --YURi (talk) 20:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- It is in the reference, p.85. ROYIN didn't add the word from the air. I agree it hard to find. I think it only appears in offline novels or movie dubs; it's a kind of dated term. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80 Thai is a WDL, so it needs at least three quotes to pass RFV. Could you add them so I can close this? Thadh (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Turkish. Tagged by User:Xenos melophilos. Defined as a misspelling. As a standalone term it has more than three apparently citable uses. It's harder to tell if it is a rare misspelling (RFD material), common misspelling, or alternative form. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Verificated in kuantum. TDK is a government foundation and whatever it says is the official language. If the words taken from foreign languages are taken in a late period, TDK generally prefers to take their spelling close to the original. Quantum is already an academic word, we don't use it in our daily life. So, kuvantum can not be a dialect. It's a misspelling. We spell it kuantum and read this word as it is written. BurakD53 (talk) 22:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think you're right about RFD. BurakD53 (talk) 22:37, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
German. Tagged by an IP editor but not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Low German. An IP editor requested verification of the past participles ebeennt and gebeennt in the inflection table. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Low German. An IP editor requested verification of the past participles ebedüüdt and gebedüüdt in the inflection table. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Low German or Low Saxon. The L2 says Low Saxon, the head template says Low German. Tagged by an IP editor but not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- nds = Low German (strict sense) = Low Saxon -- it all means the same. (nds-nl = Dutch Low German/Saxon has an addition.)
- gröyter (small g) is more likely, but still questionable. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3724:F14:A8BC:6D10:5D61:B07A (talk).
Low German. Rfv-sense: "dog". Tagged by an IP editor who added a sense as an oblique form of Rüe (“dog”). Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Icelandic. Rfv-sense: industriousness. Tagged by @Numberguy6 but not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- Does exist but is just obsolete since the early 20th century. Does not exist in modern Icelandic. Examples:
- 130.208.182.103 07:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Can we source that? Sławobóg (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Ukrainian. Rfv-sense: nowheresville. Tagged by User:Underfell Flowey, not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 02:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- At some stage the renaming caused a storm of memes in Ukrainian and Russian at some period but the sense is wrong, IMO. Google "Горішні Плавні мем" to see meme examples. Since the name sounded funny, someone may have assigned that meaning but I don't think it was anywhere widespread. — This unsigned comment was added by Atitarev (talk • contribs).
- Added three sources, I think it should be good now — NickK (talk) 01:25, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Lithuanian. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 18:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Indonesian. Rfv-sense: eternal era. Tagged by User:Rex Aurorum years ago, not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Oriya. Tagged by an IP editor years ago with the comment "ṣô + nukta becoming /ɻ/ does not make sense". This may be meant as a request for verification of pronunciation /ɻɔ/. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Swedish. Tagged by User:Christoffre, not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Turkish. Tagged by User:Afb2011. If it exists it might be spelled evreng, the Ottoman pronunciation given in {{R:tr:NewRedhouse}}. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
RFV label added by Kwekwlos, but not listed here. DonnanZ (talk) 21:53, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Limburgish. Tagged by an IP editor with the comment
- As:
- nothing at Google and Google Books.
- officialese names are uncommon in vernacular and minority languages.
- per w:Eupen dialect, the dialect is Ripuarian (part of Central Franconian) and not Limburgish.
Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Salar. Tagged by User:BurakD53 with the comment "I think it is misunderstanding of köprik “breast”, page 393". Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
South Levantine Arabic. Rfv-sense: corkscrew. Tagged by User:AdrianAbdulBaha, not listed. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
South Levantine Arabic. Tagged by User:Fenakhay. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Fenakhay: Deffo present in Jordan. Carrefour Jordan sells it. Something about fishing in Jordan, and a cooking show, although this is some nice Modern Standard Arabic the girl is talking; it is generally correct to assume terms for flora and fauna to belong to either literary language or dialect if found in one unless there is contrary evidence. My search is
"الجمبري" "الأردن", as Jordan is between Egyptian and Hijazi Arabic where it is used because of influence from Egyptian Arabic; apparently here borrowed from Egyptian into Jordanian phonology, hence unexpected /d͡ʒ/. Fay Freak (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Proto-Brythonic. It's a given name attested in the inscription PATERN[--] COLI AVI FICIT ARTOGNOU COL[I] FICIT, which is Latin, which strongly suggests this is a Latin transcription of a Proto-Brythonic name, and not a Proto-Brythonic term in its own right. By comparison, the reconstructed form would be *Arθgnọw.
I should note that this has been RFV'd before ([103] - discussion here), but the notice was removed after 2 days with the baffling reasoning that it is attested, without actually addressing the fact that the dispute is over which language it's actually attested in. Can we please clear this up once and for all? Theknightwho (talk) 16:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Proto-Brythonic. According to the etymology, it's attested in a Koine Greek text as a transcription of a Proto-Brythonic given name. Same issue as #Artognou and #Uindiorix, in that the attestation makes it a Koine Greek term (which we group under Ancient Greek), and not a Proto-Brythonic term. Theknightwho (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
South Levantine Arabic. More seafood skepticism from User:Fenakhay. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Russian. Rfv-sense: eavestrough. Tagged in 2017 by D1gggg whose account is now globally locked. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Vox Sciurorum: The term can be referenced in Ushakov, Ozhegov, Zaliznyak, orthographic, etc. dictionaries: The links are all here: [104] Ushakov gives a usage example: "Воробьи́ под застре́хой вьют гнёзда." Kindly retract the rfv. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Rfv-sense: seventh
Sattha (“seventh”) looks like a typo to me. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:17, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Delete --RichardW57 (talk) 14:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I've traced the spelling with the aspiration back to Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the Pāli Language, Third edition, 1921. Paragraph 251 gives the form as 'sattha', while Paragraph 275 gives it as unaspirated satta. I suspect interference from adjacent chaṭṭha (“sixth”) and aṭṭhama (“eighth”); their underdotting in the text has to be taken on faith - it is not visible in the scan of the original. --RichardW57m (talk) 09:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "testicle".
WNT gives one mention, but that's about it for now. Thadh (talk) 12:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Telugu. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 16:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Malayalam. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 16:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I have added gloss for given name [105]. Vis M (talk) 19:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Malayalam. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 16:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- It was the spelling for എപ്പോൾ (eppōḷ) in older works.s:ml:Page:CiXIV40.pdf/125, s:ml:Page:CiXIV133.pdf/546, and several others.
- I think I created this entry by mistake while sourcing missing lemmas from older works, and then realized the mistake and immediately added the archaic label. Vis M (talk) 19:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vis M, The dictionary seems to transcribe all ō and ē as o/e as in വെഗം, എന്നെക്കും, ഇനിമെൽ, തൊറും, തലെന്നാൾ, ദ്രൊഹം, could be a Grantha feature though im not sure whether the early Malayalam script really lacked distinction between ō/o, ē/e? also transcribing the kuttiyalukaram as unmarked though that was common before AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Hiatus is odd, especially given its absence in the claimed antonym. @Felfeu: Where's this word been seen? --RichardW57 (talk) 21:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe this is obvious, but the hiatus is because both parts of the compound are negated, not just the first. I dont know this language ... would an ā normally swallow a following a, even if that /a/ is a very important morpheme? —Soap— 14:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Some of the X-not-X compounds have looked very unclear, but I forgot the first rule - try Google. I've now found seemingly good quotations and will put at least one of them up tonight. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- @soap: It's an SoP (as in the looming German/Swedish/Sanskrit problem) and coal mine mess! First durable source hyphenates, and also hyphenates the feminine form of the positive, but not the neuter form of the positive. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- This is RFV, not RFD. Theknightwho (talk) 18:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Soap: I misread the accusative of the feminine form as a neuter form. The Sinhala script version has the phrase or whatever as a single word, so we now have quotes for one word in the Sinhala script, and for hyphenated and two words in the Roman script. They're not independent. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
- @soap: It's an SoP (as in the looming German/Swedish/Sanskrit problem) and coal mine mess! First durable source hyphenates, and also hyphenates the feminine form of the positive, but not the neuter form of the positive. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Some of the X-not-X compounds have looked very unclear, but I forgot the first rule - try Google. I've now found seemingly good quotations and will put at least one of them up tonight. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Is this word associated with a specific religious or philosophical tradition? If so, it should probably be labeled.__Gamren (talk) 12:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Gamren: If you're up to identifying the tradition, go ahead and label it. I'd be tempted to say it's a Buddhist term, but for all I know it might just be a Theravadin concept. It might not Sanskritise well. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about this topic.__Gamren (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Gamren: If you're up to identifying the tradition, go ahead and label it. I'd be tempted to say it's a Buddhist term, but for all I know it might just be a Theravadin concept. It might not Sanskritise well. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Pali.
Even an LDL needs some evidence of existence for its words. Can find no evidence of this noun in Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it's got two descendants listed at the bottom of the चतुरङ्ग page. Would these two be better explained as direct loans from Sanskrit? —Soap— 09:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- It works - dating of the loans would help. The compilers of Thailand's Royal Institute Dictionary gave up on trying to decide whether words were borrowed from Sanskrit or Pali. In this instance, I think borrowing via Thai would also be possible. The word exists in Thai, though not on Wiktionary. The homonymous adjective in Pali has a ghostly existence - it can be seen as an intermediate element of compounds, but is also borderline SoP. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:35, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Rfv-sense: 'spur'
Dictionaries record patoda (“goad, spur”). --RichardW57m (talk) 12:29, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
June 2023
[edit]Pali. Rfv-sense: an ascetic forest-dwelling
Put simply, what evidence do we have that this was (or is) used as a noun in Pali?--RichardW57m (talk) 13:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Pali. Rfv-sense: to say
Both vacati and vatti appear to be grammarians' fancies, and Childers writes, "Saddiníti gives the present forms vatti and vacati, neither of which I have yet met with in texts, vadati in Pali being generally substituted for the present of वच्."[1].
Geiger makes no reference to vatti in his discussion of athematic verbs. In his grammar, Thomas Oberlies uses the expression '(*)vatti' to refer to the forms from the stem vac. Neither grammar makes any mention of vacati.
As the Saddiníti refers to them, there may be some merit in fashioning an explanation of the terms on Wiktionary. (Note that Oberlies' usage is in English.) --RichardW57 (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Apisite Please note that I've sent vacati／vatti to RfV. RichardW57 (talk) 17:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ^ Childers, Robert Caesar, Dictionary of the Päli language, London: Trübner & Company, 1875, page 559.
Pali. Rfv-sense: to say.
To be considered with the above (vacati). --RichardW57 (talk) 17:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Burmese.
The on-line version of the dictionary has a different spelling, သန္ဒေ. Is that also correct, or perhaps a common misspelling? I'm breaking the hard link for a Pali word form; someone else (e.g @Hintha) will have to add Burmese သန္ဒေ (sande) if such a word exists. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:31, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- SEALANG erroneously spells the word as သန္ဒေ (sande), likely due to a clerical error when digitising the Myanmar Language Commission's dictionary's contents. Other dictionaries, including my paper copy of the 2012 Tet Toe English-Myanmar Mini-Dictionary (p. 296), corroborate the သန္ဓေ (sandhe) form. -Hintha (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Can you please record the relevant dictionary definition. The best I could do was to find the word on p996 of Judson, where it merely says 'See ပဋိသန္ဓေ', which doesn't read to me as meaning 'means the same as'.
- I don't understand how, within Burmese, ပဋိသန္ဓေ (pa.ti.sandhe) can be derived from Burmese သန္ဓေ (sandhe) if that is borrowed from Pali paṭisandhi. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Burmese.
Compound of သန္ဓေ and shares the samme attestation problem. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Fixed by finding entry in Judson and removing link to MED. I've taken the liberty of removing the invocation of
{{rfv}}. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Burmese.
Compound of သန္ဓေ and shares the samme attestation problem. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Burmese. There is also a hard redirect to this page. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Compound of သန္ဓေ and shares the samme attestation problem. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Old English. I'm unaware of any attestations of this verb outside of the past participle ġefylċed, which is attested sufficiently late that it could represent a vowel-reduced form of ġefylċod, the expected participle of the class 2 weak verb fylċian. This seems probable, as class 2 verbs tend to oust class 1 ones in late Old English; even if the verb was inherited from Proto-West Germanic *fulkijan (which is far from certain), it could've changed class at some point. 2407:7000:942C:8000:4B9:8AE8:9E3D:8FC4 03:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying, but likewise, fylċian is only attested once, also late (1066, same year as above) as fylċade. How then do we know which is right ? Odds are 50:50. At least fylċan (wk1) has reflexes outside of Old English (OHG & ON), which fylċian does not. Leasnam (talk) 17:27, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others#Appendix:Toki Pona/teje.
Toki Pona. Tagged by User:LesVisages (diff) but not listed. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 00:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- Shouldn't this be an RFV issue? Though not sure how that works for Appendix-only languages. AG202 (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sent to RFV since the only reason given by the tagger was "WT:ATTEST". — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 21:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is one cite given. Thadh (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Where? CitationsFreak: Accessed 2023/01/01 (talk) 21:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- In the usage note. Thadh (talk) 21:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- Where? CitationsFreak: Accessed 2023/01/01 (talk) 21:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is one cite given. Thadh (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Sent to RFV since the only reason given by the tagger was "WT:ATTEST". — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 21:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense:
Currently being used as USDT ("Tether") symbol by some exchanges such as crypto.com and OKX.com
- Just pointing out we still have an open discussion above. —Soap— 05:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
July 2023
[edit]Rumai Palaung.
Use needs to be verified, and the definition confirmed. --RichardW57m (talk) 09:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. I've added the blindingly obvious quotation, and moved the difficult part of the definition to the headword, where it's unchallengeable (but unprotected). --RichardW57m (talk) 09:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- That's not an instance of use, and in any case IMO we don't need a quotation, just a definition. If the article does not contain a definition, it should be deleted until someone comes along who wants to create actual content.
- Actually, with my correction the article is still only marginal (rather than outright false, as it was when I found it), though it should ideally have enough content to be minimally informative to the reader. The link to the Unicode proposal at least gives them something to follow up on if they want an actual definition, so I removed the 'deletion' tag. kwami (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is an instance of use, and here it is in more detail:
- A letter used in Rumai Palaung.
- 2005, (some Rumai Palaung reader); reproduced in Michael Everson, Martin Hosken, Proposal for encoding Myanmar characters for Shan and Palaung in the UCS[106], 2006, Figure 5:
- စလာဘိုးပဒီး ဟာဝ်းလာဝ်ႈႎစာန်းတိုက့် ...
- (please add an English translation of this quotation)
- A letter used in Rumai Palaung.
- Or do you have some reason for denying that it was an instance of use? I take it you did look at Figure 5.
- Transcribing that text in a language I don't know in an alphabet I'm not acquainted with is hard going.
- This entry has been made the subject of an RfV, so unless we accept 'clearly widespread use', and you clearly didn't before, we need a quotation or a suitable mention. --RichardW57m (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is an instance of use, and here it is in more detail:
Mon.
Keep. The vowel letter blatantly obviously exists. I shouldn't have had to waste my time adding quotations. @Kwamikagami would have got a strong hint of that from even a glance at WT:About Mon. Incidentally, for the sake of a letter lemma, I don't why we have to worry about how it's pronounced. --RichardW57m (talk) 14:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @RichardW57m It's not whether the letter exists, but whether the article has any content. Spurious articles should be deleted, regardless of whether a good article could be written. If the article apple only said "Translingual: a word spelled a-p-p-l-e," then that article should be deleted regardless of the fact that we could craft a legitimate article on that word. Or, you could be the one to add lexical content, if you like. But it does no harm to not have a spurious article, and IMO it's better that way: when people see all the red links, someone may be inspired to create actual, informative articles on these letters.
- BTW, I never said you needed to add quotations. At the very least, identify the language or languages. The pronunciation would also be nice, though not strictly necessary.
- As for why I'm doing this, I've found Wikt articles on supposed letters that apparently don't exist in any language. Not many, but a few. And I've found hundreds more that have fake definitions or empty definitions that don't actually provide any information. That makes Wiktionary look like a joke. kwami (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Kwamikagami: were you aware that
{{rfdef}}exists? You're deleting entries because they lack adequate definitions when you could be tagging them with{{rfdef}}and a hidden note explaining what would constitute an adequate definition. Flooding CAT:D with trivial single-character entries that admins don't know and don't care about is annoying and rather disruptive. I'm certainly not going to waste my time on them. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)- That would be fine for missing definitions. But these are bogus articles. I would delete them myself if I were able to.
- I got started with emoji articles that were nothing more than the Unicode definition, or what the emoji happened to look like in a particular font. Consensus was that such spurious articles should be deleted.
- I've been criticized for removing false information and then tagging the article for deletion. But often once the false information is removed, there's nothing left. What exactly am I supposed to tag with {rfdef}? In many cases we don't even know what language uses the letter. In other cases we don't know if the letter is used in any orthography. I suppose I could replace the entry with an "Undetermined" header and then tag that with {rfdef}, but that seems rather ridiculous -- what definition would we expect for an undetermined language?
- There are editors who are willing to delete bogus articles -- it's not like it takes any effort. But they've stopped when criticized for deleting spurious or unverified claims. Why not just delete any article that doesn't meet Wiktionary standards, and leave it to someone who actually has some information to recreate it? kwami (talk) 03:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Kwamikagami, Chuck Entz: Because when recreating a page, one needs to know why the article was deleted, and not everyone can see the reason.
- We do need to find some way of getting the
{{rfdef}}s addressed. I don't know how to manage the nagging. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)- That's not reason to post misinformation on Wiktionary. kwami (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Kwamikagami: were you aware that
Translingual. RfV was raised at entry by User:Kwamikagami, who neglected to create an entry here. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Corrupt entries like this should of course just be fixed or deleted, but RichardW57m is edit-warring over imposing a Burmese-nationalist bias on Wikt, so better for a third party to fix it.
- RichardW57m was instructed, when he asked about this issue at the Beer Parlor, that the translingual header is for translingual entries, and that individual languages belong under their own headers. Yet he insists that Burmese does not belong under a language header, but should be presented as some kind of translingual entity, and that all other languages of Burma are secondary to it. I've tried fixing, e.g. by changing the 'translingual' header to 'Burmese', but RichardW57m reverts that and complains I am 'deleting' the entry. He also deletes Burmese entries as 'redundant'. (Somehow deleting Burmese does not count as 'deleting'.) I've fixed 'Burmese alphabet' (which RichardW57m intends specifically as the alphabet of the burmese language, not as the translingual Mon-Burmese script -- this isn't a matter of him being confused by the name) to the translingual Mon-Burmese script (arguably it's actually the Mon script), but RichardW57m reverts it back to his favored language, arguing that the Burmese alphabet is representative of the Mon script and so should be presented instead. There's also the problem that Mon, Shan, Karen etc. are not pronounced as Burmese. In this single case he has made the grudging concession of labeling the pronunciation as 'Burmese', but of course it should still be moved to a Burmese header. He's also called for me to be banned for opposing his nationalist bias, which has no business dictating the format of Wikt. kwami (talk) 18:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The likes of Translingual i (letter) are defined by reference to well-known alphabets; the current and early definition of th (vowel) letter are by reference to a well-known alphabet. (He appears to be frustrated that the Mons were definitively defeated by the Burmese after attempting to assimilate the Burmese, so that Burmese culture is better known to English speakers than Mon culture.)
- There is currently a moratorium on editing one-character letters, such as this, so here is evidence of translinguality:
- As for the history, I contend that simply undoing an improper edit is perfectly reasonable - @Kwamikagami had replaced 'translingual' by 'Burmese' without raising an
{{rfm}}or anything suitable. If he had simply added a Burmese language section for a letter, I would not have changed his edit except perhaps for uncontroversial edits, such as fixing typos or supplying omitted items. RichardW57 (talk) 20:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)- Keep. (I was interrupted by a computer problem).
- As to the matter of citing pronunciations, that is something that can be improved. We are slowly discussing it in Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2023/July#Pronunciation Labelling in Translingual Items, where on 15 July @Kwamikagami conceded, "If under 'translingual' you wanted to give the pronunciation of the various languages that use the letter, that would be technically correct, but that's why we have sections for individual languages." The discussion is moving to the notion of focussing on abstract sounds, and not using sound clips at all, which tend to be cluttered by irrelevant details of individual languages. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- I fixed the transliteration of the Burmese; it was part of the edits lost by my computer problem. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Thai. Rfv-sense: because
Does this actually occur in some Central Thai dialect, or is this merely an echo of its existence in the Northern Thai and North-eastern Thai languages? We have no source, explicit or implicit for this sense, a practice some have tried to ban. (Notifying Alifshinobi, Octahedron80, YURi, Judexvivorum, หมวดซาโต้, Atitarev, GinGlaep, Noktonissian): . This sense was added by @21janvier1793, who has not edited for over a year. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- I could not find the reference to support it. In fact, I don't think Central Thai dialect ever use this word in that sense. Even in the contemporary Northern Thai, the use of this word to mean "because" is rare. I think the user @21janvier1793 put the meaning here because he misunderstood that Isaan was a dialect of Central Thai. Noktonissian (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- Does anyone feel up to writing the Isaan entry? I wasn't up to translating the examples I could find. It looks as though the simple word is both preposition and conjunction, though Becker just gives ย้อนว่า (in Lao script) as the conjunction. --RichardW57 (talk) 14:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- I do not think the meaning "because" belongs here. พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน does not mention this meaning. I think we should remove it. --A.S. (talk) 13:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- In view of Noktonissian's opinion and the lack of support for this word, and to stop this RfV stalling for timidity - Delete. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:48, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
Paiwan. This language does not appear to use the letter f: see a long text at [107]. The phoneme v is apparently used, so it is possible that different orthographies exist. The word alofo (with lowercase) may belong to a different Taiwanese indigenous language, such as Amis. This, that and the other (talk) 11:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- This resource about the Amis language glosses ’alofo as 背袋 (“backpack”). This, that and the other (talk) 12:01, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Undetermined. Having deleted the entry for the Chinese upper case 'letter', @Kwamikagami added the tag {{rfv}} with the explanation, 'Lacking a language orthography'. Now if Yoruba ǹ (letter) is valid, we need a good explanation as to why the corresponding capital does not exist or is not translingual. Incidentally, Translingual ǹ (symbol) existed until @Kwamikagami deleted it out of process on 2 June 2023. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Welsh. This is certainly a proper noun used as a house and farm name[[w:Mathafarn]|but I can't find any record of it as a common noun, specifically in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru. Llusiduonbach] (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
August 2023
[edit]Albanian. The dialectal variation of mb- ~ mp- is plausible. Catonif (talk) 09:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Komi-Permyak. Attested term is лы́а (lýa). Not present in the usual dictionaries. Thadh (talk) 14:35, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Paiwan. Tagged 2 years ago by @Mar vin kaiser: "not found in official Ministry of Education dictionary". Created in 2009 by @Qehath, who is still around. This, that and the other (talk) 10:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- Found it in this dictionary (PACIFIC LINGUISTICS Series C - No. 73 PAIWAN DICTIONARY, Raleigh Ferrell, 1982; pg. 23 and elsewhere). MSG17 (talk) 03:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Eastern Huasteca Nahuatl. The entry saw participation from @Aearthrise, Marrovi in 2018 and 2020. Note that the Western Huasteca Nahuatl entry was removed out of process. This, that and the other (talk) 02:09, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Belarusian. Belarusians may occasionally use this word in their Russian speech, but I doubt that it can be considered a proper Belarusian word. The synonyms of this word exist in Belarusian dictionaries, so it's not vulgar enough to be excluded from dictionaries on the basis of being vulgar. And yet the Belarusian dictionaries don't seem to have "жопа". Ssvb (talk) 16:46, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Ssvb: Hi. The Belarusian entry was added by me. It can be marked as rare or "Russianism". The more common synonym ду́па (dúpa) is listed under synonyms. It was possible to find usage in Belarusian. Folklore: "Ах, мілка мая, вярці жопаю, як я. Стара будзеш — пазабудзеш, вярцець жопаю не будзеш." Another usage: "Раптам бачу, круцяць міма нас жопамі".
- More common vulgar forms like "пайшла ў жопу!". It is verifiable in different forms, if someone wants to keep it.
- I don't mind keeping Belarusian less contaminated by Russian, though, if it's decided to delete the entry. I am neutral but remember we describe the language the way it is, not the way we want it to be. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Sanskrit.
The word is not found in Google for any language, not just absent as Sanskrit ᠱᠷᠢᠢ (šrii). Notifying @AleksiB 1945, Theknightwho, (Notifying AryamanA, Bhagadatta, Svartava, JohnC5, Kutchkutch, Inqilābī, Getsnoopy, Rishabhbhat, Dragonoid76): . --11:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @RichardW57 Neither are several of the other scripts given. Why are you only RFV’ing this one? If you’re only doing it because you disagree with the move to use the conventional Mongolian I instead of the Galik one, then I should point out that exactly the same issue applies to that version as well. It seems very clear to me that it would be more productive to get rid of the automatic Sanskrit alternative generator instead of these sorts of piecemeal nominations, wouldn’t you agree? Theknightwho (talk) 04:10, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Also this can be found in 《同文韻統》 volume 1, page 137, column 5, which can be verified by cross-comparison with Tibetan-script ཤྲཱི (shrī) in the top row. Below are Manchu-script ᡧᡵᡳᡳ (šrii) and Mongolian-script ᠱᠷᠢᠢ (šrii). Theknightwho (talk) 05:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: Good, could you please add the dictionary (?) mention. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
- In this particular case, we can now read the word as hand-written, and attempt to work out what is actually written. And here we also get mentions for Manchu and Tibetan for free from your example.
- After seeing @AleksiB 1945's confession at WT:GP, I realised there was a whole bunch of unsupported transliterations to investigate.
- While the automated generation of alternative forms tends not to be trustworthy, it does seem to be more trustworthy than the equivalent manual generation of red links, and is better than having private code generating wikitext that is then pasted in manually. And continual improvement is available for automatic generation. I do however see false blue (only orange if one's logged in and has so chosen) links as a reputational problem. One solution for them pending the location of evidence is
{{no entry}}. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Also this can be found in 《同文韻統》 volume 1, page 137, column 5, which can be verified by cross-comparison with Tibetan-script ཤྲཱི (shrī) in the top row. Below are Manchu-script ᡧᡵᡳᡳ (šrii) and Mongolian-script ᠱᠷᠢᠢ (šrii). Theknightwho (talk) 05:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Telugu, as mentioned in the deletion summary, no results in CPB or Andhra Bharati repo, not found on internet or gbooks, Tamil Lexicon and Burrow (DEDR [2910]) don't identify any Telugu cognate; it is specifically a South Dravidian word, is not even loaned to Telugu and Telugu doesnt have the phoneme /ɲ/, the word is a literal transliteration from Tamil ஞாயிறு (ñāyiṟu). AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:35, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945 I agree I can't find any attestation of it. However I don't understand why it redirects to a Malayalam word now? Shouldn't it be redirected? Also, @Getsnoopy is the page creator, can you clarify why you created this entry? Brusquedandelion (talk) 11:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945 It's in CPB. And Telugu most definitely has the /ɲ/ phoneme, which is why ఞ exists. As for the redirect, I also am confused as to why a Telugu term redirects to a Malayalam term. I've noticed that you've made quite a few such changes that are incorrect without consensus; please do not do that and get consensus on the talk pages first.
- @Brusquedandelion I created it because (a) it is attested, and (b) to show the etymology of the term పడమర. Getsnoopy (talk) 23:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- >No results found for ఞాయిరు
- >No results found for ఞాయిఱు
- >Telugu most definitely has the /ɲ/ phoneme, which is why ఞ exists.
- ౡ also prob exists for the same reason, it is phonemic because of a single sanskrit loanword ञ (ña)
- >without consensus
- this discussion above has been open for over 7 months, another one for 11 months
- >to show the etymology of the term పడమర
- CP Brown who knew Tamil was giving an analogical explanation from the Malayalam word for west paḍiññāṟŭ which is from paḍum+ñāyaṟŭ. It is not about the Telugu word's etymology itself. The original cognate of ñāyaṟu isnt there in Telugu as the word is restricted to SD1, apart form that ñāyaṟŭ cannot become -mara. Just because the etym of a word isnt known doesn't mean whatever etym should be entered AleksiB 1945 (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
September 2023
[edit]Sanskrit.
Distinctly implausible given Sinhalese spelling ශ්රී (śrī). If no defence of this spelling can be provided, I recommend that this page simply be deleted, rather than converted to an invocation of {{no entry|sa}}.
This entry was perpetrated by @AleksiB 1945. Unfortunately, we have too little Sinhala-script Sanskrit text to constructively test the behaviour of Module:sa-convert, which originally perpetrated this spelling. --RichardW57 (talk) 05:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- ශ්රී looks like an improperly rendered version of ශ්රී, the url shows it as "ශ්%E2%80%8Dරී" and both use the same letters just that the middle "%E2%80%8D" makes the first one a ligature it seems AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945: Yes, that's the spelling difference. Sinhalese mostly forms consonant clusters using ⟨0DCA⟩, the visible al lakuna - strictly speaking, killed consonant plus normal consonant with vowels: Pali mostly, or at least traditionally, forms consonant clusters using ⟨200D 0DCA⟩ - touching letters: Sanskrit seems to mostly form them using full-blown conjuncts ⟨0DCA 200D⟩, but I'm not sure whether it (i.e. the user) falls back to touching letters - to be researched. Additionally, some of the conjuncts seem to be repurposed for prenasalised consonants, and have indecomposable Unicode encodings for when used for that purpose. Just to complicate matters, it seems that Pali and Sinhala mostly use the full-blown conjunct encodings for clusters with 'r' or with 'y' in second place. There are at least seven combinations besides those ending in 'y' and 'r' for which Pali uses 'conjuncts' rather than touching letters. Some of these combinations are to be found in contractions rather than normal words, where they have been almost or mostly assimilated away, e.g. -kv- (no words, I think) and -nv- (only one verb and its compounds that I am sure of).
- Oh, and there's the complication that the Windows font Nirmala UI supports neither touching letters nor full-blown conjuncts not used by Pali, so it falls back to visible al-lakuna. At least Windows now puts the preposed vowels and vowel fragments after the al-lakuna following the first consonant.
- Finally, the Sinhalese users of Sanskrit in Sinhala script are distinctly a minority - Devanagari has mostly taken over in Sri Lanka. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- you should workout with Module:sa-convert#Example, as for the Mlym script it seems the chillus/dot reph are used but not the anusvara for final m as in Malayalam or the chillu m, instead മ് is used; also ive heard some saying word final t/d, ṭ/ḍ are represented with chillu l and ḷ but that might be a Malayalam only thing (not used in the samples either). Samples: 1, 2 AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:17, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- @AleksiB 1945: What we need to do is to populate the testcases, and that needs people to work from Sanskrit texts in the relevant scripts. In some cases, e.g. Sinhala, the examples are almost useless for checking because we lack the fonts to read them properly. (Notifying AryamanA, Bhagadatta, Svartava, JohnC5, Kutchkutch, Inqilābī, Getsnoopy, Rishabhbhat, Dragonoid76): . I've got two pieces of Sanskrit in Sinhala script, and the chances of my misreading them are very high. My best chances are with the text at the foot of p26 of https://www.aathaapi.net/tipitaka/28.OTSPKN_Khuddaka_Patha.pdf, and I don't know what type of Sanskrit it is - it could be Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit for all I know. At least I seem to have a Pali translation of that text in the verses above. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- You are aware, are you not, that Module:sa-convert#Example is generated by the module? --RichardW57m (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Beware of the Sanskrit Bible on the Internet. It is automatically generated from a Devanagari master, and is only as trustworthy as their conversion code. I've found one version with a couple of sibilants swapped round! --RichardW57m (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- The first sample may be better; they are aware of the presence of pitfalls - "We are aware of the limitations of this automatic conversion from one language script to the other". --RichardW57m (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Module:sa-convert/testcases/Sinhala demonstrates 3 failures out of 11, and that's working from a lower bar - that the Devanagari and Sinhala have the same Roman transliteration. Basically, we either have a very modern spelling, well under a century old, or the transliteration to Sinhala is deeply wrong. I believe it is deeply wrong. I'm disinclined to fix that detected bug until I can fix other bugs I've seen that are not amenable to automatic conversion. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- you should workout with Module:sa-convert#Example, as for the Mlym script it seems the chillus/dot reph are used but not the anusvara for final m as in Malayalam or the chillu m, instead മ് is used; also ive heard some saying word final t/d, ṭ/ḍ are represented with chillu l and ḷ but that might be a Malayalam only thing (not used in the samples either). Samples: 1, 2 AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:17, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Sylheti. Etymology section is confusing. This term may be from Sanskrit नारिकेल but couldn't find few listed Cognates (empty page) in नारिकेल#Descendants. Requesting for verification. Thanks -- ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 08:43, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
- What is this supposed to verify? RFV is for disputing whether a term exists, not whether an etymology is correct. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 12:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
Sanskrit.
Let's see the epigraphic evidence. No entry on Google books for the Brahmi script form. — This unsigned comment was added by RichardW57 (talk • contribs).
Belatedly signed. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Bohairic Coptic. This word is attested in other Coptic dialects with slightly different forms, but I can’t find any reference to this supposed Bohairic form other than scattered mentions on the Internet that probably derive from our own entry. Looks like someone’s attempted reconstruction to me. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 20:47, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
Bashkir. Originally tagged for speedy deletion with rationale "does not exist. Zero occurrence in Bashkir dictionaries". Ultimateria (talk) 18:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Mon. Rfv-sense: 'school' as a meaning in Thailand. Halliday[1] gives its meaning as "a monastery, a school (in Burma only)". Now, the Thai Mon entry แพฺ-อา by @Octahedron80 does give 'school' as a meaning, but without any source. This could have been inherited from ဘာ when he split the Thai Mon entry off.
Signed belatedly, repinging @Octahedron80. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
- The reference is [2][3][4]. It is because a wat is traditionally also used as school, so the sense is imported into Mon too. Today, it still exists. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- Did Anusorn add (or subtract) something to the entry in the translation[3]? The entry in Edition 2 is the same as in the original[1]. I can't locate the text of other references you added[2][4]. What do they say about the word? (Exact text, please.) --RichardW57 (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC) RichardW57 (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- The sense development is plausible, as it happened in Burma. However, I could also see it developing a specialised sense - 'school where the teaching is in Mon', as opposed to a state school where the teaching is in Thai. So, what's the evidence that in Thailand ဘာ has meant 'school' in general, given that Halliday wrote that the word didn't mean 'school' in Thailand. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] Note: sqlite file = same data in Phuan's --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- As I don't trust these links to remain long-term, these dictionary quotations are:
- [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] Note: sqlite file = same data in Phuan's --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
| Source | Mon | Thai-script transcription or transliteration | Wikified translation |
|---|---|---|---|
| Anusorn[3] | ဘာ | (เพีย) | วัด (wát, “temple”), โรงเรียน (roong-riian, “school”) |
| ဘာဗ္တောန်လိက် | (เพียเปียะโตนเลิ็ก) | โรงเรียน (roong-riian, “school”) | |
| Champi[4]? | ဘာဗတောန်သိက် | เภี่ยเปี้ยะตนเลิ่ด | โรงเรียน (roong-riian, “school”) |
| Champi[4]? | ဘာလကျာ် | เภี่ยเลี่ยะกยั๊จ | วัด (wát, “temple”) |
| ဘာကၟာ | เภี่ยกะมา | วัดวาอาราม (“temple”) | |
| Phuan[2] | ဘာ | [แพฺ-า] | วัด (wát, “temple”), โรงเรียน (roong-riian, “school”) |
| ဘာသာသနာ | [แพฺ-าซาซะนา] | วัดในพุทธศาสนา (“temple in Buddhism”) | |
| ဘာဗ္တောန်လိက် | [แพฺ-าแปฺ.โตนเลฺิจ] | โรงเรียน (roong-riian, “school”) |
--RichardW57 (talk) 09:29, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: What reason do we have to believe that Anusorn is anything more than an imperfect copy of Halliday Issue 2? If there is no claim to be anything other than a translation of Halliday Issue 2, or strong evidence that it is more than a translation, then we cannot cite it in contradiction to Halliday Issue 2.
- Champi provides no evidence that the word in question means 'school'.
- That leaves Phuan, as represented in some database, who contradicts Halliday, who seems to have received his information from Haswell. I also worry that Phuan may have used Halliday's dictionary. A word that makes me suspicious is ဘာသာသနာ, which Halliday translates as 'mission school', i.e. a school run by missionaries. Have I translated the Thai translation of the meaning in Thailand correctly? The word as given for Thailand seems odd, as though Phuan saw it in a word list, felt he had to include it, and changed the meaning as though he didn't understand the English or thought it seemed odd. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- Phuan was a local Mon person that did not contact to any farang. (He lived in 1889-1976.) The dictionary is made by a group of Thailandish Mon people which is based on Phuan's study. His memorial and how they did is also printed in the book. If I have time, I will take some pictures of those pages. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I took the photos. Please look inside: [113] --Octahedron80 (talk) 13:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ↑ 1.0 1.1 R. Halliday (1922) A Mon-English Dictionary[1], Bangkok: Siam Society, page 348
- ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 พวน รามัญวงศ์ [Phuan Ramanyawong] (2005) พจนานุกรมมอญ-ไทย ฉบับมอญสยาม [Mon-Thai (Siamese) Dictionary], กรุงเทพฯ [Bangkok]: มติชน [Matichon], →ISBN
- ↑ 3.0 3.1 3.2 อนุสรณ์ สถานนท์, ร้อยตรี [Anusorn Sathanon, Sub-Lt.] (1984) พจนานุกรม มอญ-ไทย [Mon-Thai Dictionary]; Thai translation of Halliday, R. (1922) A Mon-English Dictionary, Bangkok: Siam Society (2nd ed.: Rangoon: Mon Cultural Section, Ministry of Union Culture, Govt. of the Union of Burma, 1955).
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 จำปี ซื่อสัตย์ [Champi Suesat] (2007[2008]) พจนานุกรมไทย-มอญ สำเนียงมอญลพบุรี [Thai-Mon (Lopburi Dialect) Dictionary] (in Thai), ปทุมธานี [Pathum Thani]: วัดจันทน์กะพ้อ [Chan Kapho Temple]
Mon. Rfv-sense: Obsolete form of စှ်.
The word စှ် means 10, as in the numbers '10' to '19'. From '20' up, including '83', the form is စှော်. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- We also have more forms than those: [114] [115] [116] [117]. About စှ် and စှော်, I think they might be interchangeable, not strict to use only form per number. IMO, Old Mon စသ် turned into Modern Mon စဟ် at the beginning and then ဟ became subjoined by Burmese rule (?). In the other hand, စှော် happened because someone started adding explicit vowel to စှ်. Tall AA form also derived from the Burmese rule either.--Octahedron80 (talk) 07:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: None of what you just quoted, so far as spellings go, contradict the observation that forms with /ɔ/ means '10' or '-teen', while forms with /o/ (Shorto is reported as having /u/) mean '-ty'. The only place that contradicts this is https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/mon.htm. Even dictionaries that lack an entry for စှော် etc. show the behaviour. I don't know how far back the distinction goes, though presumably not before Middle Mon. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- Digression:
- Subscripting final consonants is or was pretty widespread; I don't think it's a particularity Burmese habit. It's even seen in Kharoshthi! Khmer used to do it, and an instance leaked into the Unicode standard. Lao did it with ຽ. Tai Tham still does it, even it is now less popular for /uːp/ and /up/, and some consonants get out of the way below by superscripting. I did wonder if the historical connection between Mon and Tai Tham was relevant. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Old Coptic. Would like some source where it can be verified that this particular form of the word exists; the final vowel seems irregular with respect to the given Bohairic and Sahidic Coptic forms, and I can’t find mention of it on a quick search through the usual references. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 20:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
October 2023
[edit]อะปา added 30/9/23. ปาปา, ฟะ and ดาจ added 1/10/23. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Mon. There is no evidence of the Thai script being used to write Mon, except as a transcription or transliteration system. Furthermore, no evidence of existence has been recorded for the words in these spellings. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Mon.
อะคาน added 30/9/23. มฺอน and กะ added 1/10/23. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
These words are in the Thai script, but no evidence has been presented that the Thai script has been used for communicating in Mon. While a dictionary reference has been offered, these alleged words are almost certainly merely the pronunciation expressed in the Thai script. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Mon. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Mon. There is no evidence of the Thai script being used to write Mon, except as a transcription or transliteration system. (Examples of usage as a transcription has been presented at ဘာ above.) --RichardW57 (talk) 18:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Urdu. Added by User:11achitturi. It looks like just an Urdu respelling of the Hindi word स्नानघर (snānghar).
@Vininn126, Hythonia, KamiruPL, Tashi, Sławobóg Help..........,,,,,,,,,, Polish. Maybe a regionalism or perhaps should be moved to Silesian, but doesn't seem to be used in Polish. 22Pikachu9988 (talk) 19:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Translingual. RFV of the gender / asexual sense. A very similar sense previously failed RFV, this one was (re)added without citations of actual use, and even its inclusion in the reference cited for it may be fictitious according to Wiktionary:Tea_room/2023/October#Some_gender/sexuality_symbols . (If at least three symbols — also the Eris one — have been added citing that book but appear to not be present in the book, perhaps we also need to examine other entries which claim to be sourced to that book...?) - -sche (discuss) 13:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Rfv-sense: Does this term really have no sense relating to the root 'yoke'? Can we verify with the oldest texts (viz. the Rig Veda)? ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 14:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- योगस् (yogas) is not old. It's not in EWAia.[1] It seems to me to have arisen in alternation[2] with योग (yoga), which in late Vedic could mean "concentration, contemplation" (that is, "yoking the mind" I guess). —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can you add this information to the entry? ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 16:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- If it exists. I'm not convinced the entry can pass verification. NWS has it with an asterisk,[3] meaning the word was only found in glossaries. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can you add this information to the entry? ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 16:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ^ Mayrhofer, Manfred (1996) “YOJ”, in Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindoarischen [Etymological Dictionary of Old Indo-Aryan][2] (in German), volume 2, Heidelberg: Carl Winter Universitätsverlag, page 417
- ^ Wackernagel, Jakob (1896-1964) w:Altindische Grammatik [Grammar of Ancient Indian] (Indogermanische Bibliothek. 2. Reihe: Wörterbücher) (in German), Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, page 286: “§149b)β)”
- ^ Otto Böhtlingk, Richard Schmidt (1879-1928) “योगस्”, in Walter Slaje, Jürgen Hanneder, Paul Molitor, Jörg Ritter, editors, Nachtragswörterbuch des Sanskrit [Dictionary of Sanskrit with supplements] (in German), Halle-Wittenberg: Martin-Luther-Universität, published 2016
Urdu. Entered by User:ImprovetheArabicUnicode, tagged but not listed by User:SAA2002. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Added by @Chariotrider555. कालमैत्री (talk) 08:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- कुड़ुमचोदी, in R.S. McGregor's The Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary (1993), published by Oxford University Press, [118]
- kuṛum-ćodī, in John T. Platt's A Dictionary of Urdu, Classical Hindi, and English (1884), published by W. H. Allen & Co., [119]
- کڙمچودي / kuṛum-chodī, in John Shakespear's A Dictionary, Hindustani and English (1834), third edition, published by J. L. Cox & Son, [120]
- Chariotrider555 (talk) 16:47, 22 October 2023 (UTC);
- Good कालमैत्री (talk) 16:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Chariotrider555 It still looks a very obscure term, have you ever heard this word? कालमैत्री (talk) 02:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- User:कालमैत्री, It's a dialectal vulgar tadbhava term. It is not likely be a word in common (definitely not cultivated) usage, especially outside of Haryana-Punjab (don't know if McGregor is enough to classify it as purely Bangru/Haryanvi however). It's well attested in linguistic literature, as early as 1790. Chariotrider555 (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Chariotrider555 It is likely obsolete now, as one knows a particular variety of haryanvi i never heard this word. कालमैत्री (talk) 04:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- User:कालमैत्री, It's a dialectal vulgar tadbhava term. It is not likely be a word in common (definitely not cultivated) usage, especially outside of Haryana-Punjab (don't know if McGregor is enough to classify it as purely Bangru/Haryanvi however). It's well attested in linguistic literature, as early as 1790. Chariotrider555 (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Old Hindi, also urdu. Sense as genital. कालमैत्री (talk) 16:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- عورت / ʻaurat , " (orig.) The private part or parts (so called because it is abominable to uncover or expose them)" in John T. Platt's A Dictionary of Urdu, Classical Hindi, and English (1884), published by W. H. Allen & Co., [121]
- عورت / aurat, "1. The pudenda of man or woman, that which is concealed through modesty." in John Shakespear's A Dictionary, Hindustani and English (1834), third edition, published by J. L. Cox & Son, [122]
- عورت / ‘au'rat, "nordity parts of body that should go covered" in Bashsir Ahmad Qureshi's Kitabistan's 20th century standard dictionary (1971), published by Kitabistan Publishing [123]
- Chariotrider555 (talk) 03:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Chariotrider555 That doesn't verify. Platts mentions it originally( in Persian?) meant private parts. But do we have any citations etc. to verify this sense to been in use, especially in urdu. This 1827 grammar also only mentions its use as woman कालमैत्री (talk) 04:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- What is nordity? Is the use of that word any indication that this dictionary might not be the highest quality, or is it a rare, specialized word that we just don't list? Thanks, —Soap— 08:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- is it possible that it's a scan error for nudity? —Soap— 08:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, scanno for nudity is very likely; it looks like that link isn't great at reproducing punctuation either. The whole definition says "woman female wife nakedness; nordity parts of body that should go covered", which I interpret as "woman, female, wife; nakedness, nudity; parts of body that should go covered". And honestly, that's probably the most misogynistic semantic shift I've ever heard of. It's as if some future stage of English would have cunt as its unmarked, everyday word for "woman". —Mahāgaja · talk 08:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. And yes, that's what brought my attention to this RFV. I've heard that some feminists want to replace this word with the Persian زن (zan) or a similar word; see this page or a search for phrases like "don't say aurat" for newer articles, such as this one which applies to Hindi. I dont know how common this sentiment is, or whether it's worth mentioning with a label or with a usage note that some people find the term offensive. The impression I get from the linked article above is that there is no easy replacement for it, and the impression I get from the Google search is that the etymology is not widely known. (Also, for what it's worth, it's plausible that English wife is cognate to a Tocharian word for genitals, though we can't reconstruct the meaning of the original PIE from just two cognates, if they even are related.) —Soap— 09:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Soap This offensive feeling is very uncommon, only in some feminists and as for Hindi fringe groups who dislike Persian loanwords. Normal people just use it. Word0151 (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia articles Intimate parts in Islam and Aurat (word) paint a more nuanced picture. See also the senses given at Arabic عورة (ʕawra). --Lambiam 16:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: – FWIW, I don't think it literally meant 'genitals', or like the word 'cunt'. I would tag it with a religious sense. UDB has defined at as جسم کے وہ اعضا جن کے دیکھنے دکھانے سے شرم آئے ( مرد کا ناف سے ٹخنے تک اور عورت کا تمام جسم باستثنائے چہرہ ) ۔ (jism ke vo a'zā jin ke dekhne dikhāne se śarm āe (mard kā nāf se ṭuxne tak aur 'aurt kā tamām jism bā satisnāe cahra).), ie. The parts of the body which are embarrassing to be shown (from the centre/stomach/belly button till the ankles for men and the entire body except the face for the women). They've given two quotes for this, one dated 1744, and the other 1867. نعم البدل (talk) 16:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. And yes, that's what brought my attention to this RFV. I've heard that some feminists want to replace this word with the Persian زن (zan) or a similar word; see this page or a search for phrases like "don't say aurat" for newer articles, such as this one which applies to Hindi. I dont know how common this sentiment is, or whether it's worth mentioning with a label or with a usage note that some people find the term offensive. The impression I get from the linked article above is that there is no easy replacement for it, and the impression I get from the Google search is that the etymology is not widely known. (Also, for what it's worth, it's plausible that English wife is cognate to a Tocharian word for genitals, though we can't reconstruct the meaning of the original PIE from just two cognates, if they even are related.) —Soap— 09:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, scanno for nudity is very likely; it looks like that link isn't great at reproducing punctuation either. The whole definition says "woman female wife nakedness; nordity parts of body that should go covered", which I interpret as "woman, female, wife; nakedness, nudity; parts of body that should go covered". And honestly, that's probably the most misogynistic semantic shift I've ever heard of. It's as if some future stage of English would have cunt as its unmarked, everyday word for "woman". —Mahāgaja · talk 08:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well the discussion was not for its history/etymology(LOL). But verifying its use as genitals, which can't be as i see?कालमैत्री (talk) 16:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Chariotrider555 That doesn't verify. Platts mentions it originally( in Persian?) meant private parts. But do we have any citations etc. to verify this sense to been in use, especially in urdu. This 1827 grammar also only mentions its use as woman कालमैत्री (talk) 04:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Old Hindi is not a well-documented language, so dictionary entries may suffice for inclusion. This does not hold for Urdu. If the sense existed in Old Hindi, it is plausible the sense existed in "old" Urdu (basically the same language as Old Hindi), but did not make it to present-day Urdu. --Lambiam 16:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Lambiam Does the word exist in old Hindi?. The dictionaries (of 19th century hindi which is not old-hindi) tells of it meaning originally(Persian?) and then writes what it means in Urdu/Hindi as in [124]. And its more of a why/context the new dictionaries give when they write this and not from the view of Old-Hindi. We are only able to verify it only meant as woman. कालमैत्री (talk) 17:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Since the word exists both in Hindi (as औरत (aurat)) and in Urdu (as عورت), it is reasonable to believe it had an ancestor in Old Hindi. Actually, the etymology section at Hindi औरत states that that ancestor is Old Hindi औरत (aurata), spelled the same but with a slightly different Romanization. Morphology and Syntax of Old Hindī, to which this is sourced, only give the sense “woman” (for the stem aurat-).[125] But this is not a dictionary. I do not know if there are any Old Hindi dictionaries. --Lambiam 18:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Lambiam Does the word exist in old Hindi?. The dictionaries (of 19th century hindi which is not old-hindi) tells of it meaning originally(Persian?) and then writes what it means in Urdu/Hindi as in [124]. And its more of a why/context the new dictionaries give when they write this and not from the view of Old-Hindi. We are only able to verify it only meant as woman. कालमैत्री (talk) 17:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Urdu. Many hits, should be enough; don't know about books though. कालमैत्री (talk) 02:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
A cursory search seems to show that this is a proposed "official" term which does not receive much usage. I've found it in a dictionary from the 1960s, but not in "running text". Hebrew is a WDL so we'll need more than dictionary entries. Корсикэн-Уара (юзэр толк) 21:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "piece of junk, rubbish". — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Vietnamese, nominated by PhanAnh123 with reason: “Nam quốc sơn hà being a poem in Chinese and thus has no place in a Vietnamese entry aside, while there're a lot of books/works with 南國 in their title (like 南國方言俗語備錄 or 南國地輿), their titles are still in Literary Chinese, even if the content within these works are in Vietnamese. So is there actual attestation (preferably pre-modern) of this term in a passage or verse written in Vietnamese?” I can’t find anything. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Over a year, RfV failed. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
November 2023
[edit]Old Czech. Tagged but not listed. @Dárawine as the creator and @Zhnka as the tagger.
I'm a bit confused, because I do see an instance of the term here, but I'm not 100% sure what it means. Vininn126 (talk) 14:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- "stsl. kamy a kamenь" means "Old Church Slavonic kamy and kamenь". I haven't found any attestation of kámy and it would be a great surprise for me if there were any. The consonant patterns of the feminine and neuter gender have kept their nominative (r-stem – máti; n-stem – břiemě, t-stem – kuřě) distinct from other cases (mateře, břěmene, kuřěte). I think the reason for the disappearance of the masculine nominative was the Proto-Slavic contrast between nominative and accusative (*kàmy ~ *kàmenь), which isn't seen in any other masculine patterns and was impossible to retain. I haven't seen an example of masculine n-stem which would've kept the original nominative. If there is no attestation of kámy, the page should be deleted. Zhnka (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Taos. A place name "Stone Fence". Have no idea what or where (if anywhere) this refers to. Created in 2008 by User:Ish ishwar, who is almost completely inactive. User:-sche, any ideas? Benwing2 (talk) 00:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- it's a placename in the Taos language. The English name is just a literal translation of the Taos. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no more information on it as I remember it. It's very possible that there will be no real English name for the place since Taos people have traditionally been secretive about their culture from outsiders. Furthermore, the placename is from a book of traditional folktales, origin origins, religious myths, etc. It also possible that living Taos people don't know what the name refers like the way Western folks don't know where the garden of Eden is. Ish ishwar (talk) 05:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar We need a least one citation, since Taos is a low-resource language. We can't just take it on faith from you. Benwing2 (talk) 05:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- It has one. It's from Parson's book Taos tales. All other Taos lexical entries that do not contain the mention of Parsons are from Trager's body of work on Taos, which include a grammatical sketch and few articles on mostly phonology, morphophonology, and prosody. I included some info from Parsons because she gave her text to Trager who checked some of her transcriptions with speakers. (Trager was a famous structural linguist who has good ears while Parsons was an anthropologist who apparently couldn't hear the difference between ejective and non-ejective consonants.) However, I will say that I hardly added anything from Parsons – just the first several pages. There are probably many words that could be added that may not be in Trager's publications. Somebody has to go through it. Ish ishwar (talk) 05:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar We need a least one citation, since Taos is a low-resource language. We can't just take it on faith from you. Benwing2 (talk) 05:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Trager & Parsons sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taos_language#Bibliography
- Regarding your desire for subset categorizations of placenames, you are simply not going to get the detail that you want for a language like this. Now, since the story that contains this word contains what we might consider magic, you might could guess that this placename is mythical placename. However, that would be pure speculation on our part. The only way to get your information would to travel to Taos and convince some native speaker to answer your questions. That might be hard to do given the traditional secretiveness of the culture to outsiders. (For example, if you look at Parsons's papers housed at the American Philosophical Society, most of her Taos notebooks are restricted access presumably at the request of the Taos government.) It's better to just call it a placename and leave it that. Ish ishwar (talk) 06:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar You need to add a citation from the book you quoted from that illustrates the term, otherwise the term is liable to be deleted. I also think if we can't even determine whether it's a real or fictional placename, it shouldn't be included, but I am not an expert on WT:CFI; others will have to chime in. Benwing2 (talk) 06:31, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding your desire for subset categorizations of placenames, you are simply not going to get the detail that you want for a language like this. Now, since the story that contains this word contains what we might consider magic, you might could guess that this placename is mythical placename. However, that would be pure speculation on our part. The only way to get your information would to travel to Taos and convince some native speaker to answer your questions. That might be hard to do given the traditional secretiveness of the culture to outsiders. (For example, if you look at Parsons's papers housed at the American Philosophical Society, most of her Taos notebooks are restricted access presumably at the request of the Taos government.) It's better to just call it a placename and leave it that. Ish ishwar (talk) 06:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand the degree of documentation of Taos. Parsons's book is a book of traditional Taos stories written in English that includes the occasional word from the Taos language. Almost all Taos words from that book do not occur in the context of Taos sentences, the words sometimes occur in the context of English sentences and most often in footnotes as a Taos single word with morphemic glosses provided by Trager. What you want doesn't exist. Her book appears to finally have been scanned, take a look at the page: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/g/genpub/agy7796.0001.001/30
- I would guess that there are no published texts in the Taos language – exception being that maybe some hardcore US Christians (like the Wycliffe Bible translators) have attempted a translation of the Christian bible. The Taos community probably has materials that are private. There are probably unpublished texts from linguists' fieldnotes.
- If you include the word Eden here, then you should include hìwkwíalto because they likely have the same degree of determination of whether it's meets your 'real' definition. (It might be insulting to call it 'fictional.' I think Christians usually elevate their religious texts to be outside of fiction.) Ish ishwar (talk) 08:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar You need to read WT:CFI. We are quite liberal about allowing attestation of limited-resource languages, but there is a limit. Eden is nothing like hìwkwíalto because there are a zillion attestations of the former. If the words are included only in footnotes and mentions, then you need to quote those footnotes and mentions. If the meaning is uncertain, as it sounds like hìwkwíalto substantially is, use
{{def-uncertain}}with best-guess meanings following; but in this case it should not be categorized as a placename. We can't just ignore the rules because work is required to follow them. Benwing2 (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2023 (UTC)- Looking at the scan of the source, I don't think it even is a place name. I think it's just a common noun that means literally 'stone fence' and might idiomatically mean 'shrine'. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- If you need a zillion attestations, then you will have to delete all Taos entries. Most are listed only a single time in every source. All words in Parsons are included in the main text of each story in Parsons's inaccurate phonetic transcription, the footnotes contain Trager's rechecking and phonemicization+morpheme identification of Parsons's phonetics. The meaning seems to be certain – I don't know where your uncertainty is coming from.
- The 'Shrine ?' note that follows the morphemic gloss is presumably Parsons's. It's not clear what means. My interpretation was that she meant that this may be a shrine location. The following note to look at page 99 shows that another character also lives at the same place. If Trager has an uncertainty, then there will be a question before the '(T').' which you can see on some footnotes.
- If you read the preface to this book, you'll see that Parsons says that usually Taos language stories start by mentioning the characters and the places that they live. She explicitly uses the term place name. Additionally, in her English translation, she uses the locative noun without a definite article which is typical of how English placenames are treated grammatically. Thus, I conclude that these nouns are placenames. I use the term placename in a semantic sense because placename nouns and non-placename nouns are identical except for the addition of a locative suffix/postclitic -to. I don't think you should second guess the authors – just report what the sources say. Ish ishwar (talk) 06:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar Please read WT:CFI. You do not need a zillion citations for low-resource languages like Taos, only one. I agree with reporting what the sources say, but as you mention, the sources don't say it's a place name, it's just some assumptions you're making. I think it's important that all assumptions like this are noted and that citations are given appropriately, like I said before. I agree with User:Mahagaja that this is more likely to be a generic "stone fence"; presumably the author would have capitalized Stone Fence or otherwise made clear it was intended as a specific place name (and would presumably have given some indication of where the place name is). Also you have consistently adopted a somewhat hostile attitude towards me from the beginning; I'd ask you to tone it down and assume good faith on my part. I am trying to improve the quality of these entries, which are old and in need of cleanup, by giving you some ideas as to how to clean up the entries. Benwing2 (talk) 07:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Ish ishwar You need to read WT:CFI. We are quite liberal about allowing attestation of limited-resource languages, but there is a limit. Eden is nothing like hìwkwíalto because there are a zillion attestations of the former. If the words are included only in footnotes and mentions, then you need to quote those footnotes and mentions. If the meaning is uncertain, as it sounds like hìwkwíalto substantially is, use
- If you include the word Eden here, then you should include hìwkwíalto because they likely have the same degree of determination of whether it's meets your 'real' definition. (It might be insulting to call it 'fictional.' I think Christians usually elevate their religious texts to be outside of fiction.) Ish ishwar (talk) 08:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- The source does say that stories start with character names and a placename. This noun + postposition does occur at the start of a story. Therefore, according to the source, it is placename. It's not an assumption since the source explicitly says so. I'm fine with putting your doubts in the entry, but it should be clear that the doubt is a supposition.
- Your assumption that some indication of where the placename is should be given seems unreasonable. I would find it likely that Parsons doesn't know where numerous places were in the Taos territory. Although it's a different language & culture (but in the same Southwest region), Keith Basso wrote a book about placenames in the Western Apache language in which you can see that there are hundreds of specific geological formations/areas have that names with no corresponding name for the place in English (e.g. Goshtł'ish Tú Bił Siką́né 'Water Lies With Mud In An Open Container,' Gad O'ááhá 'Juniper Tree Stands Alone,' Tséé Dotł'izh Tę́naahijaahá 'Green Rocks Side By Side Jut Down Into Water,' etc.) Nobody not from Western Apache culture knows where these are since it's all private knowledge. (Basso notes in the book that Western Apache folks didn't want the locations of the names published.) I don't find it improbable that this is similar for hundreds of languages.
- I don't see how I've been hostile or how any of what I wrote can be interpreted that way. I haven't agreed with you and still don't agree with you, and I'm just trying to explain why. It's good to improve entries. I just don't think the information should include surmises. Ish ishwar (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Hindi.
Urdu. @نعم البدل — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 13:47, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Fenakhay: I'll be astonished if it can get past WT:ATTEST. نعم البدل (talk) 01:07, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
According to ஃஸ் and [126] Tamil sequence "ஃக்" is transliterated "kh". According to ஃக் and Module:ta-translit/testcases it should be "ḥk". According to w:ISO_15919 it should be "ḵk". What is the proper transliteration? Olaf (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is no particular one standard to deem the pronunciation of this letter, it's not used very commonly among Tamil speakers, you will find it's usage as (kh) mostly only in Tamil Islamic texts and in Muslim names. For a common Tamilian with no linguistic expertise, it's just (ḥk). And that goes for almost all the Tamil letters, most of them have a different sound based on where they occur in the word. For example, க is pronounced as /k/ in the beginning of the word, but it becomes /g/ when it comes in the middle of a word, but retains its /k/ sound if a consonant(no schwa) precedes it. But if you generally look into the standards, ISO only considers the sound it makes in the beginning of the word as standard. I'd suggest you go with the ISO standard. Godwithus (talk) 04:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Polish. Rfv-sense:
- night of the long knives (purge in which opponents of a regime or political party are killed or removed)
Not implausible, but in Polish I've only seen it referring to the Nazi purge, or comparing events to it (nonetheless referencing the purge of 1934). Example of the latter (emphasis mine):
- Szkoda, że biskup Życiński nie wspomniał o odwołaniu Lecha Kaczyńskiego zorganizowanym niczym noc długich noży z natychmiastowym pozbyciem się jego najbliższych współpracowników i odwetem na mianowanych przez niego ludziach.Hythonia (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Example of this metaphorical meaning: https://www.google.pl/books/edition/P%C3%B3%C5%82mistrz/utuoEAAAQBAJ?hl=pl&gbpv=1&dq=%22noc+d%C5%82ugich+no%C5%BCy%22+-niemcy&pg=PT94&printsec=frontcover Olaf (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Urdu. Also added by User:11achitturi like the supposed derivative سنانگھر above. There is سِنان (sinān) of Arabic origin with a completely unrelated sense. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Esperanto. Was marked for speedy deletion by an IP, citing "Fake word!" This, that and the other (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Esperanto, "to poach". This looks like a dictionary-only word. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
Jamaican Creole. Deleted by IP as "unsourced". — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 09:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Do people actually use these or the expected terms Fionnlainn, Fionnlainneach, Fionnlainnis? Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:17, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know, but "Suòmaidh" gets 53,000 hits in a Google search and there's a Scots Gaelic Wikipedia article with that title [127]. --Hekaheka (talk) 07:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
- Stòrlann Nàiseanta na Gàidhlig, the official organization that produces Gaelic-language educational materials in Scotland, has a spreadsheet located here (if you don't want to download an XLS file/aren't using a device that has an Excel or OpenOffice equivalent, the relevant sheet is copied on this blog post) that lists geographic names of countries in Scottish Gaelic. Finland is provided as both Suòmaidh and Fionnlainn, and my understanding is that Suòmaidh is the preferred name, deriving from the Finnish endonym Suomi. Fionnlainn, meanwhile, is a direct loan-word from Modern English, and at least in educational settings, those are often shunned whenever there is a historical alternative. (In fact, Am Faclair Beag does not list Fionlainn at all. Suòmaidh is the only provided translation for "Finland" in that dictionary.) As to whether either term is more often used in casual conversation by native speakers, I cannot say -- searching BBC Alba pulls up no Gaelic results for any derivative of Suomi, and only one hit for Fionnlainn. Qwertygiy (talk) 00:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Not found in any dictionary from DDSA, no such word ends with a short /a/ in Tamil unless it's an adjectival of a word, and this word is not an adjectival form either. No such borrowing from Sanskrit can be attested as far as the dictionary sources available goes. Godwithus (talk) 20:51, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Persian. Rfv-sense: "Gatha". Seems like an interpolation from Middle Persian.--Saranamd (talk) 14:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Malay. I've never heard this word before. As far as I know, "teh" is the Malay word for tea, and that's the word I've used and heard whenever I've needed to speak Malay. The dog2 (talk) 06:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Old Church Slavonic. Vininn126 (talk) 13:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Polish. KamilekLebioda (talk) 19:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've heard it only as "do usranej śmierci" but if you google it it shows some results for do usranego końca. Tashi (talk) 22:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
December 2023
[edit]Albanian. A capitalised diacriticless version of evǵít, the obsolete Meyer orthography for evgjit, found as a mention in English-language context. Catonif (talk) 17:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Pali.
See discussion at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2023/December#Zero width joiners in Sinhala script?. Unless the spelling with visible hal karima can be verified (only one durable source needs to be quoted), this page should be deleted. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Pali.
See discussion at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2023/December#Zero width joiners in Sinhala script?. Unless the spelling with visible hal karima can be verified (only one durable source needs to be quoted), these three pages should moved to the correct spelling, which has touching letters instead. For each page, the correct spelling is shown under the 'alternative forms' heading. If a redirect is left after the move, it should be deleted. --RichardW57m (talk) 17:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
All three pages were created by Apisite, who trusted an unchecked Latin to non-Latin conversion. In general that should not be trusted - Module:pi-Latn-translit/testcases currently shows 11 failures. --RichardW57m (talk) 17:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Nominated with reason “Google results only show translation of Chinese novels or Chinese-influenced fiction, no hit on wikisource, chunom.net, hannom.org.vn, nomfoundation.org, the result on hvdic has no example in Vietnamese.” MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
It’s been long enough; RfV failed. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese, with the reason: “Questionable usage in actual Vietnamese texts.” MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
It’s been long enough, RfV failed. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Translingual: "Used as a symbol to signifying support or solidarity for Palestinian nationalism". — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 13:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Dozens of usage when searched in Twitter or Facebook or even Instagram. Svenurban (talk) 02:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Translingual. This entry is very vague and I am struggling to establish its veracity. If it is real, we could do with using more precise words than "ass" and "mockery". This, that and the other (talk) 12:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- It sounds like somebody is using the sign-language notation to describe the everyday prank of mooning. Thus probably a troll (or a misunderstanding of what sign language is). Equinox ◑ 00:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not a troll. I think @Romanophile was sincerely trying to document body language without trying to represent it as actual language in the linguistic sense. That's why it's in the Appendix namespace. This is just the most obviously un-dictionary-like example. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- I made this eight years ago and I barely even remember it… I must have tried to describe it in sign‐language notation because I thought that that was more proper than using plain language like ‘mooning’ to describe it, which our sign‐language entries don’t do. It looks like I had little faith in this entry’s approval because of its experimental nature. I don’t know; this was so long ago. Just do whatever you want with it and leave me in peace. —(((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 20:20, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Equinox I considered that this could refer to mooning, but doesn't that require the skin of the buttocks to be exposed? The way this entry is set up doesn't require that. This, that and the other (talk) 00:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not a troll. I think @Romanophile was sincerely trying to document body language without trying to represent it as actual language in the linguistic sense. That's why it's in the Appendix namespace. This is just the most obviously un-dictionary-like example. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Erzya. Can't find any attestations at all, let alone those we can use. Thadh (talk) 19:16, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Erzya. Same IP as above. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 19:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 19:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 19:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 11:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Komi-Permyak. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Р. М. Баталова 1985: Коми-Пермяцко-Русскӧй Словарь and Н. А. Рогов 1869: Пермяцко-русскiй и русско-пермяцкiй словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 10:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Rfv-sense: (or rather, form)
Reportedly, the feminine of धीर (dhīra, “firm”) is only धीरा (dhīrā), and not धीरी (dhīrī), whereas धीर (dhīra, “wise”) has both forms as the feminine.[1]
- NSW has धीरी f (dhīrī) for the sense “intelligent”.[2] But I can't find an example in online corpora. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ^ Monier Williams (1899) “धीर”, in A Sanskrit–English Dictionary, […], new edition, Oxford: At the Clarendon Press, →OCLC, page 517.
- ^ Otto Böhtlingk, Richard Schmidt (1879-1928) “धीर”, in Walter Slaje, Jürgen Hanneder, Paul Molitor, Jörg Ritter, editors, Nachtragswörterbuch des Sanskrit [Dictionary of Sanskrit with supplements] (in German), Halle-Wittenberg: Martin-Luther-Universität, published 2016
Albanian. Rfv-sense: to downsize; to belittle. Definitions by SKA-KSI, whose work isn't always the most reliable. They do seem plausible however, "make [as little as a] crumb", although not in sources, and all the instances I could understand in the ANC seemed to all rather mean "crumble". @FierakuiVërtet, thoughts? Catonif (talk) 18:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- Catonif I didn't this know word so I can't be sure nobody uses it with this precise sense in their everyday life. But if we were to consider it a synonim of thërrmoj and dërrmoj [128][129] in all their senses, then the figurative sense would be something like "fare a pezzi (spiritualmente)". Minuscule particles are associated more with the idea of destruction in Albanian rather than the one of downsize. But I don't know ... try checking dërrmoj and thërrmoj in FGJSSH (1984). Maybe it will be clearer.
- Also, I don't if this relates in any way but... FGJSSH (1984) lists the 3 sg person of the mediopassive of grimcoj, thërrmoj as grimcohet and thërrmohet but the 1 sg person of the mediopassive of dërrmoj as dërrmohem. Whereas Kristoforidhi lists also the 1 sg person mediopassive of grimëcoj as grimëcohem.
- Keep up the good work :) FierakuiVërtet (talk) 14:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- Catonif però, ecco... I'm not sure we will ever see it written with this meaning. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 14:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
January 2024
[edit]Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 10:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 10:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Udmurt. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: Л. Е. Кириллова 2008: Удмурт-Ӟуч Кыллюкам, Y. Wichmann 1987: Wotjakischer Wortschatz and А. Бутолина 1942: Русско-Удмуртский Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 16:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- I've found a quote in В. Л. Шибанов 2022: Туала удмурт кылбурет ӟуч но куньсӧр, литератураослэн герӟетазы. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 07:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Volapük for "homing pigeon". —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Polish. SeashellSausage (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- And if it does exist, is it really pronounced /xfasˈtfɔ.ɔt/? —Mahāgaja · talk 08:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja no, it should be /ˈxfast.fut/ SeashellSausage (talk) 20:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Samoan.
Like many Polynesian languages, Samoan doesn't do syllable-final consonants- let alone consonant clusters. The only way I can imagine this occurring in a Samoan sentence would be code-switching. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Cornish. Nominated for speedy deletion with rationale "Headword resembles actual word but is not an attested word in Cornish literature". Ultimateria (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Hindi. Nominated for speedy deletion with rationale "english phrase, not in hindi". Ultimateria (talk) 03:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Pali.
Formally registered here, but I had overlooked its being recorded in both the PTS Pali dictionary and in Childers. I therefore say, Keep, and think I could find an occurrence in the Milinda-Panha if I made the effort. That may be the oldest occurrence in Pali. Occurrences in the commentaries, reported by the PTS dictionary, may be harder to track down to printed materials. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:14, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Does this word exist (with or without apostrophe) outside automatic conversions of Urdu معجم ? Exarchus (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Old High German. Not on any of the OHG noun entries and although I'm not very familiar with OHG sound changes I can find no justification for a change from -a- to -u-. Could be from *-uz but the entry specifically states that the suffix applies to a-stems. -saph 🍏 15:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Ancient Greek. Strongly doubt this dual is attested. @Vergencescattered Did you see this one somewhere in a text? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 08:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Same as the above. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 08:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Similar case. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 08:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Do we have a policy (or policy-adjacent recommendation) on the attestation of nonlemma forms? Certainly for Latin, we have tons of bot-created nonlemma forms that may or may not be actually attested. For Ancient Greek, I feel like creating entries for such purely theoretical forms is a waste of time, and I wish editors interested in Ancient Greek would spend their Wiktionary time differently, but once the entries have been created, I'm not sure we should spend time deleting them either. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know of an overall policy, but in the case of Latin, I think it is generally agreed not to list certain forms, e.g. the locative, unless they are either attested or part of a word category that is known to productively use this form (e.g. city names). This is because we know the use of the locative in Latin was restricted and not fully productive for all nouns. I don't know what Mnemosientje's point is, nor am I familiar with how ancient Greek used the dual, but if it was a barely or questionably productive category, I could see how a policy of only listing it if attested might make sense. On the other hand, the posts on this web page state "the dual is always optional [...] On the other hand, it isn't terribly rare, archaic, or limited to specific referents or registers" and "In Homer, the dual seems to be freely used whenever two items are mentioned", which suggests that whether or not a word's dual form is attested might be more a matter of chance than a linguistically significant distinction from words with attested dual forms.--Urszag (talk) 14:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Urszag: If I remember correctly, the use of the dual in Ancient Greek (as in many IE languages such as OE) died out over time: Homer may have used it regularly, but later authors didn't. To know whether a dual form is likely to be attested, you would need to know date and dialect (and possibly whether the writer was trying to come across as archaic). That would make use of the dual as anachronistic for some verbs as "emaileth". Chuck Entz (talk) 15:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- My understanding is that our handling of Latin forms an exception in this respect, and even there non-lemma forms have in the past often enough been challenged successfully in RFV; the convention there appears to be an optimistic "assume attestation, but delete if challenged and so shown to be unattested", whereas for other dead languages the treatment is generally pessimistic ("don't assume attestation, only create an entry when certain of a form's existence"). Certainly for the Germanic languages, the convention has as long as I can remember specifically been to avoid creating entries for unattested inflected forms, even when they might be somewhat predictable.
- I am not sure it is codified somewhere, but subjecting non-lemma forms to the attestation criterium by default makes sense to me. Not subjecting them to this criterium could arguably be done on the basis of the predictability of morphology: if one form is attested and the forms are readily deduced (i.e. a lemma entry can be created that belongs to a clear inflectional category), why not create all the non-lemma entries for the inflected forms either regardless of attestation? This however also leads to questions of determining on a per-case basis whether a form is "predictable enough" to be included anyway, which seems undesirable to me. I much prefer having our attestation requirement be universal. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 17:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- What tools are there to look for a specific word form in Latin/Greek? Similar to Grassman's dictionary, which lists all attested forms from the Rigveda. I know Thesaurus Linguae Latinae, but it's not exactly user friendly. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 13:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know of an overall policy, but in the case of Latin, I think it is generally agreed not to list certain forms, e.g. the locative, unless they are either attested or part of a word category that is known to productively use this form (e.g. city names). This is because we know the use of the locative in Latin was restricted and not fully productive for all nouns. I don't know what Mnemosientje's point is, nor am I familiar with how ancient Greek used the dual, but if it was a barely or questionably productive category, I could see how a policy of only listing it if attested might make sense. On the other hand, the posts on this web page state "the dual is always optional [...] On the other hand, it isn't terribly rare, archaic, or limited to specific referents or registers" and "In Homer, the dual seems to be freely used whenever two items are mentioned", which suggests that whether or not a word's dual form is attested might be more a matter of chance than a linguistically significant distinction from words with attested dual forms.--Urszag (talk) 14:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- We know the dual forms of λόγoς which this is a compound of, so I see no reason I couldn't create these forms. I'll also add that if those forms shouldn't be created, they shouldn't be autogenerated by the template and redlinked in the first place. Vergencescattered (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Norwegian. I cannot find any evidence this word is used in Norwegian. Have checked all my dictionaires. More than 100 years ago the rich would use French words to impress so it is entirely possible this word exist in some books. I don't think the user who entered the term is active anymore. However he had a very high credibility in the Norwegian project.
- Teodor (d • c) 22:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Inuktitut. Rfv-sense:
- prehistoric fish that might be the common ancestors of all vertebrate terrestrial fauna: amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals.
Yes, the genus Tiktaalik was named after this word (which refers to a type of ordinary modern fish), but is there any evidence that the speakers of Inuit use this word to refer to the prehistoric creature? After all, the martian moon Phobos was named after Ancient Greek Φόβος (Phóbos), but we don't have a sense at Φόβος referring to the moon. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Zhuang. When is this written with a space? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 22:49, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Polish. Vininn126 (talk) 18:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- The word is quite well attested on various sites, mainly forums and comment sections. Check these websites: Filmweb (2020), Avanti (2018), Ekskursje (2022). I also added the Further Reading link to an online collection of relatively fresh words (updated in April). The derived adverb is also attested, so I took the liberty of adding it to the entry. JimiY☽ru 09:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it also seems to have gained traction; none of the sites so far I think meet our "durably archived" requirement. The "widespread use" might help this entry, but adding durable usage quotes might prove difficult. Vininn126 (talk) 09:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Russian. Hythonia (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- I highly doubt the editor who added this knows any Russian. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 19:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Russian. lattermint (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
February 2024
[edit]Translingual. Rfv-sense: A symbol used for online identification of the Azov Brigade of Ukraine, often to signal support for it.
This is a character from the Yi syllabary, but there does seem to be a little bit of use online. Not much, though, and the results are pretty much all in Ukrainian, so I don't think the translingual header is justified. Theknightwho (talk) 14:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I can find it a lot in a search of my few dozens political/teenage ukronazi channels on Telegram, often in names so you already know allegiance. On the other hand remember that you can find it (stylized this way) on shirts (domestically produced in the circle of ꑭ), hardly so entered in Unicode but I suspect reinforced from it?
- So with the names of channels only examples I analyze: Anglophone channel: “ ꑭ Oppressed Lifters” https://t.me/OppressedLifters Ukrainophone: https://t.me/sooproon Супрунята ꑭ Iдея Nауки ⚛️✡️Супрунята ꑭ Iдея Nауки ⚛️✡️ – Where apparently ꑭ is basically a shorthand for українська, the other symbols meaning that he is also a Jew or Philosemite and interested in science. Though on the other hand it occurs right after “Ukrainian” in the English channel name of an Ukrainian-language channel “ukrain1an ꑭ news” https://t.me/ukrain1an_news. Surely however in “𝙄𝙣𝙨𝙤𝙢𝙣𝙞𝙖 ꑭ 𝙉𝙎𝘽𝙈” https://t.me/InsomniaNSBM or “ꑭ ᴠᴀʟʜöʟʟ ✙” https://t.me/vallholl it means the channel is of Ukrainian origin and alledged with the said troops; in the former you cannot even claim a language since it is basically only dumping music. There is at least a point to make about why this symbolic is so frequent.
- Odd you say “online” in spite of the same situation on Twitter, and DDG finds Telegram channels too. Fay Freak (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Sylheti. Apparently two senses, but I suspect they're supposed to be one:
Dobriniv
A village of Ivano-Frankivsk city, in the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast, Ukraine.
Theknightwho (talk) 18:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
German. Rfv-senses. --06:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- I removed several of the senses which had problematic labels and no cites (but some RFVed senses remain, so this RFV is not yet closed). - -sche (discuss)
Farefare. Admittedly a neologism in a less-documented language, but a cursory search on Google only brings up Wiktionary itself, and I could only find the Italian tentenno searching Google Books and IA. (This is my first time submitting something to one of the back pages; do tell me if I’ve made any procedural errors!) MarijnFlorence (talk) 12:15, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Spelling error of the word noha, created by an anonymous user, nothing about the attestation of this word was found as in Soblex and https://obersorbisch.de/ Stríðsdrengur (talk)
- I'm inclined to speedy this one. Vininn126 (talk) 15:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Russian. Rfv-sense: (fiction, usually capitalised) Chaos, demonic entities, their monsters, and armies from the Warhammer franchises by Games Workshop
If it’s anything like English Chaos (sense 3) then this might be able to pass WT:FICTION, as I’ve definitely heard the English equivalent used outside of direct reference to the franchise. I don’t know if this has the same purchase, though, and it should probably be moved to Хаос (Xaos) if it does pass. @Fay Freak - I feel like you might know? Theknightwho (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "confused uncle". While certainly what this word would mean from its parts, I can't find any evidence for this word having any usage. Thadh (talk) 18:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Polish. — This unsigned comment was added by Vininn126 (talk • contribs) at 17:47, 13 February 2024.
Does not appear to be used in the same sense as "micronation". Numberguy6 (talk) 04:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. I've been searching for half an hour and all I can find is it being used to describe small countries like Iceland. Apart from örþjóð on Wikipedia (w:Örþjóð), I only found one instance of a "micronation" being described with a word: örríki/örþjóð in https://web.archive.org/web/20150112013546/http://dv.is/skrytid/2014/12/2/kongar-i-eigin-riki/. These terms are also virtually always used to describe normal (internationally recognised) small countries. I didn't find anything in iðorðabankinn either. It seems they've resisted coining a term for this concept. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
German. For the inflection (only). @Ffffrr as creator.
- as for the terms in -erl cp. e.g. duden.de: Sackerl which gives pl. -erl & -erln.
- as for the term in -che: [130] has "aus meinem Häusche" and "an das Dach seines Häusche" (gen. -che).
— This unsigned comment was added by 2003:de:3730:f4ba:88a5:179e:a42c:cafd (talk) at 19:47, 15 February 2024 (UTC).
- On page 208 of that work, it's clear that "Häusche" is one character's pronunciation, which is then repeated later (even in the narrator's voice) as a deliberate allusion. It's not a regular word of German, even in that text (the standard form "Häuschen" is found on page 238). German is a WDL, so three cites from independent authors are required. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Esperanto. — This unsigned comment was added by 45.9.74.66 (talk) at 20:35, 15 February 2024.
- It looks like the individual forms ĉian, ian, kian, nenian, and tian have been tagged too. This obsolete form of -am appears in very early Esperanto texts such as the Dua Libro. Back when CFI had a "well-known work" clause (removed years ago), these terms would have passed on that basis. But according to Wikipedia, Zamenhof declared these forms obsolete less than a year after the Unua Libro was published, so I'm not sure if we can find citations from anyone other than him. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Translingual.
This is currently in Category:English entries with incorrect language header because it's formatted as an English entry under a Translingual header. It's one of the standard color names used in programming, but that's for computers, not people. We need evidence that this is used by human beings in contexts where "RGB #CD853F" wouldn't work just as well, i.e., in language. Also to be considered: whether this is truly translingual- is it something that could be plugged into speech or text in any of a number of languages without being a part of those languages? If not, what language is it? See also the Tea room, where I posted it first to get an idea what to do with it. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Western Mari. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: А. А. Саваткова 2008: Словарь Горномарийского Языка and Беляев К. И. 1944: Русско-марийский словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 07:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Western Mari. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: А. А. Саваткова 2008: Словарь Горномарийского Языка and Беляев К. И. 1944: Русско-марийский словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 07:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Western Mari. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: А. А. Саваткова 2008: Словарь Горномарийского Языка and Беляев К. И. 1944: Русско-марийский словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 07:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Илья А. Латушкин: Found a quote: [131]. Thadh (talk) 19:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Tagged for speedy by @TempAcc102. This is simply an archaic~Tosk form of abstenues (the definition "absentee" is incorrect). It is likely this can be attested although no luck with Google nor the Albanian National Corpus. Catonif (talk) 18:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
German. --16:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC) RFV-failed. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 23:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Western Mari. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: А. А. Саваткова 2008: Словарь Горномарийского Языка and Беляев К. И. 1944: Русско-марийский словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 12:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Dacian.
"A kind of fruit, the small plantain."
This is one of many Dacian entries added 18 years ago by the same editor, none of which have any information as to source. I decided to start with this one because it contains a glaring error that shows complete ignorance of the subject matter. There are two main definitions for plantain: a small edible weed in the genus Plantago which is native to Europe where the Dacians once lived, and a kind of banana- which definitely isn't. The mention of fruit says to me that this person saw the word in some discussion of Indo-European languages and made an entry out of it without checking anything.
A recent discussion at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2024/February#κινούβοιλα (Dacian) led some to question whether a single mention of a Dacian word in Greek script in an Ancient Greek herbal was worthy of an entry. This is far worse: no indication where it came from, what the language of the text it occurred in was, and no guarantee that this is even an accurate representation of the original. I'm sure there's an Ancient Greek or Latin herbal somewhere that this came from, but without knowing the original script and the method of transliteration if this isn't the original script, it's impossible to know what the "x" represents, for instance. The likelihood that this came from some third-hand discussion about Dacian rather than the original source adds another layer of uncertainty. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Pseudo-Apuleius maybe? "HERBA PLANTAGO ... Nomina herbae. A Graecis dicitur arnoglossa, alii arnion, alii probation, alii cinoglossa, alii eptapleuron, Galli tarbidolotius, Spahi tetharica, Siculi polineuron, <alii> tirsion, profetae ura egneumonos, Aegyptii asaer, alii thetarion, Daci sipoax, Itali plantago lata, Romani plantago maior, alii septeneruia." ([132])
- It's like: "It is called arnoglossa by the Greeks". But arnoglossa isn't proper Greek. In Greek it would be something like (*?)ἀρνόγλωσσα (arnóglōssa) (script and spiritus, accent). Also it could be a Latin mistake for ἀρνόγλωσσον (arnóglōsson) (2nd decl. neuter ending -on/ον instead of 1st decl. ending -a/α). In other cases there could also be a Latin ending instead of the original one, as in "Galii pinpedonum" while WP gives the ending as -on. Thus with Pseudo-Apuleius as only source it would be Gaulish *pinpedonon.
- Google Books gives text previews with "sipoax and sipotax help to restore the Dacian form *siptoáx: it is a derivative from *sipta < IE *septm 'seven' plus the suffix -āk(o)s" and "Dacian: *septm > Dacian *sipta and -a:k(o)s > *siptoax > sipotax and sipoax (Pseudoapuleius)". So it would be Dacian *siptoax/*siptoáx. --11:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Tagalog.
See also Talk:angzarr. I'm posting here so that User:Wshallwshall can give perspective and respond. See also Talk:⍼. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
All contributions by User:Wonnral
[edit]I've just had the pleasure of removing an Eastern Pwo term spelled ka, allegedly representing a term pronounced /kʰaduʔ/, meaning "airplane", derived from a Proto-Karen term with the same meaning. Considering this is obvious trolling or vandalism, I cannot assume this editor acted in good faith, and as such I would propose to save what we can save and nuke all other contributions by this user. Thadh (talk) 00:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Only 76 contributions thankfully. Benwing2 (talk) 03:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Thadh: look at the edit history. They seem to have started with a copy of the Mon entry above it, swapped out the Mon language codes and changed the pronunciation to that of the word they had in mind, then changed the word "Mon" in the header and the category to "Eastern Pwo Karen", then replaced the language code for Proto-Mon-Khmer with the language code for Proto-Karen, then replaced "fish" with "aeroplane".
- I'm guessing this was someone with limited command of English who had no clue what they were doing. The word they had in mind probably starts with that letter but otherwise is spelled differently, and they also didn't grasp the concept of what the etymology was there for.
- I think they were editing in good faith- which is all the more reason to check everything they did... yikes! Chuck Entz (talk) 06:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
March 2024
[edit]@Leasnam, what's the attestation of this feminine form? -- Sokkjō 08:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Right here [[133]], first example is nominative plural, second is genitive plural Leasnam (talk) 14:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Copied from Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#Κιωουία at the request of administrator. Please delete. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ I 18:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Unknown word in Greek script by anon. It also appears at Kyiv#Translations. Discussed at Talk:Κιωουία Thank you. ++ And who is the Medieval author of Med.Latin Kiovia? ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ I 14:26, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Could the text (Latin) of the Ferrara-Florence Council be examined? And a Greek translation of it? Also, the texts for the creation of w:Metropolitanate_of_Kyiv? ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ I 15:41, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek This belongs at WT:RFVN, not here. Theknightwho (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Can this Pashto word be verified? Is this a dialectal form? I am not able to find this form in a Pashto dictionary. In Pashto dictionaries, I do find the word: 'maǵ' for "ram". Also, the IPA pronuncation and transliteration do not match the spelling. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I am not able to find this attested in any Pashto dictionary. Also, the transliteration does not match the spelling. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 16:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Arabic. Pinging creator @Fixmaster and nominator @Etisop for comment. Ultimateria (talk) 21:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Creator's comment: in Arabic, it' possible to create such compound time adverbs by sticking together ذاك or إذ together with ظرف زمان into إضافة construct as مضاف and مضاف إليه,I would create even more entries (like أسبوعئذ/أسبوعذاك for "that week") but decided to go only with those entries with إذ I could Google as mentioned in grammar explanation sources by Arab authors, e.g. with [134], and entries with ذاك are just their variations of entries with إذ I created (even if I didn't Google a mirroring entry with ذاك). The template for such derivation is very productive, one can google a ton of compound time adverbs (آنئذ/آنذاك, قبلئذ/قبلذاك, حينئذ/حينذاك, ساعتئذ/ساعتذاك, ليلتئذ/ليلتذاكetc., they're easily googlable). If one wants to remoce entries with ذاك (because they're theoretical and nobody used them in practice), it's fine. But every single entry with إذ should be definitely left since I managed to google and find them mentioned. Fixmaster (talk) 05:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Old Tamil.
I'd like to see evidence for when the meaning extended from 'poet' to 'poem'. Moreover, I think most claims of particular Old Tamil words being attested in the Brahmi script are invalid or ineligible. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Old English: “toad, frog”. First attested c. 1300 according to the OED. J3133 (talk) 05:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. I know for a fact this term exists, but the page needs quotations regardless. -saph 🍏 21:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Etruscan. Is this based on anything more than Isidore's 7th-century statement that "Lanista, gladiator, id est carnifex, Tusca lingua appellatus, a laniando scilicet corpora"? I feel like, while Isidore's alleged etymology would be reason enough to include this term in some work that aims to comprehensively discuss every scrap of potentially Etruscan linguistic material, it's incautious to have a mainspace dictionary entry on Wiktionary with a native-language spelling for this word if it is not otherwise attested. Even if the derivation of Latin lanista from Etruscan is accurate (which, if the only source is Isidore, is easy to doubt), it seems clear that the phonemic form of the Etruscan original might not have been exactly the same as that of the Latin word. The entry cites Pittau 2018's Dizionario della lingua etrusca, which seems to give the headword as "lanista" (in modern Roman script, not in the Etruscan alphabet). Pittau says "glossa latino-etrusca (ThLE 416)"; ThLE is not a primary source but another dictionary (Thesaurus linguae etruscae) that I haven't checked yet, and I don't know what gloss Pittau or ThLE is referring to.--Urszag (talk) 01:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
April 2024
[edit]Translingual. Rfv-sense: transgender.
I think it's time to delete this entry. The tag was added in 2022. We could move the ref to 'usage notes' with a note that Unicode gives it this meaning. However, that's based on the Unicode application for the symbol by Evans that didn't provide any evidence or attestation, so it's really just the say-so of a single person. Usually Unicode requires attestation from 2 authors and 2 publishers; I guess they were laxer back then. A number of meanings of alchemical symbols have been removed from the Unicode charts after scholars wrote in saying that those meanings don't exist, so Evans' original applications for the symbols are apparently not RS's. kwami (talk) 06:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian. Rfv-sense: All plural forms except accusative and locative.
In general, the declension of the plural of nouns in -us is quite different for hard stems and soft stems. Surely ỹlius should follow the pattern for soft stems (so nominative plural ỹliai) rather than for hard stems (whence *ỹliūs as given in the table.) The editing solution is to use {{lt-noun-m-ius-~}} instead of {{lt-noun-m-us-2}}. Notifying @Qehath in case he had evidence for the plural form *ỹliūs. --RichardW57m (talk) 09:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Old English. Rfv-sense: This is a RFV for the capitalised term. Leasnam (talk) 23:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Since Insular script doesn't distinguish between upper and lower case, the choice between capitalized and uncapitalized spellings of Old English words is entirely editorial. I suppose the question then is whether there are modern editions that capitalize the Old English names of the runes. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian. Rfv-sense: Vocative singular of Lithuanian for John.
The vocative singular of personal names in -as ends in -ai; -e is the vocative singular ending for most common nouns in -as. This entry was based on the declension table at Jonas, which was generated from an a since-corrected template. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. --12:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Although the etymology of Bengali -এ is said to be from Sanskrit, the definition given is ezafe, which is a Persianate grammatical particle corresponds to English of. However, the examples of its usage in a Bengali Wikipedia article indicates that -এ does not function as ezafe. Actually, ezafe is rarely used in Bengali outside certain stock phrases (e.g. শেরে বাংলা, literally "tiger/lion of Bengal", an epithet of A. K. Fazlul Huq). --Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian.
I have provisionally demoted this at the inflection table for pažastis (“armpit”).
https://morfologija.lietuviuzodynas.lt/zodzio-formos/pa%C5%BEastis says genitive plural is pažastų.--RichardW57 (talk) 07:08, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Does this really mean "calligraphy" or just "beautiful words"? Duchuyfootball (talk) 15:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Supposedly an "Abbreviation of 's", among other things. That's obviously wrong. I think the intentionmay have been to say that comps or comp's, or maybe Comps or Comp's, is an abbreviation of ... an inflected or possessive form of "compagnie"? But the execution leaves much to be desired.... - -sche (discuss) 21:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Russian. Can't find any uses online. Weylaway (talk) 22:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
@Mnemosientje, Thadh, Lingo Bingo Dingo, does this suffix actually exist? zondares is not zonden + -ares but zondaar + -es, etc. PUC – 21:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- I can't think of any example where -ares would exist, but -aar wouldn't. Thadh (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian. Rfv-quote: "Tu mažas pydare, gali ateiti pas mane ir pasilinksminti bet kada."
I don't know if this is a real quotation or an invented example. (If the latter, we may need to drop it.) I like it because of the example of a vocative singular, for which it is good to confirm the form.
Quiet Quentin finds evidence of the lexeme in books, so no RfV. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian. Entry instrumèntas.
The accentuation marked on this entry, created by an IP without any evidence for intonation, contradicts what is given in the LKZ, namely instrumeñtas. If this entry be valid, this may pose issues for representing pronunciation, and of course, we will want to know its stress pattern so that its inflection can be shown properly. The entries linked to from its forms will also have to be updated. @Insaneguy1083, AmazingJus, 92.239.103.64. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Dabartinės lietuvių kalbos žodynas gives instrumeñtas as well, which would give /ɪnstrʊˈmʲæ(ː)ntɐs/. Indeed, that's the pronunciation on the Google Translate text-to-speech, and I think I've heard my Lithuanian language instructor say it like that as well. The person who wrote instrumèntas may have confused it with some other loanwords which do use è. Do with this information what you will. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Insaneguy1083 I'm seriously confused by your purportedly phonemic notation, as some seem to think it is suitable to transcribe, as the rime of a closed syllable, /ɛˑn/ for <én> and /ɛnˑ/ for <eñ>. As far as I can make out, <èn> would then be /ɛn/. The phonetic matter at hand here is whether there is a 3-way contrast. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Compare sentimeñtas, given as [ˈsʲɛnʲtʲɪˈmʲæ̌ːntɐs]. Stressed <eñ> is pronounced as /æːn/. <èn> /ɛn/ sounds about right, given <ìn> /ˈɪn/. But I'm fairly certain instrumentas is <eñ>, not <èn>. I would trust the dictionaries on this one. I have yet to encounter <én>. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Insaneguy1083: There's a discussion of the distinction between standard Lithuanian acute and circumflex on pp33-4 in Yuriy Kushnir's successful Ph.D. dissertation at http://yuriykushnir.com/documents/Y_Kushnir_Dissertation.pdf. (Beware that he transcribes Lithuanian, as can usually be told by the doubled vowels (one symbol per mora), in his own way, so uses only one type of accent mark.) Ignoring suprasegmentals, he contrasts spréndi (voc.s. of "spréndis") [sʲpʲrʲǽˑnʲdʲi] and beñdras [bɛńˑdras]. I think the acute accents denote expiratory force rather than pitch. He does remark that cicumflexes tend to be longer than acutes: the difference is that the length of the second element of circumflexes is more pronounced than the length of the first element of acutes. At Example 15 in https://home.uni-leipzig.de/~yuriykushnir/strucclith/class_2.pdf, the same author uses superscript tone accents to show the differences in (near) monophthongs: In that note he backs up most simple phonemic length differences with non-diacritic vowel aperture differences. --RichardW57 (talk) 18:32, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Compare sentimeñtas, given as [ˈsʲɛnʲtʲɪˈmʲæ̌ːntɐs]. Stressed <eñ> is pronounced as /æːn/. <èn> /ɛn/ sounds about right, given <ìn> /ˈɪn/. But I'm fairly certain instrumentas is <eñ>, not <èn>. I would trust the dictionaries on this one. I have yet to encounter <én>. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with the possibility of confusion, or perhaps even misreading, but it could also possibly represent a reborrowing, which is why I've raised an RfV. The relevant editor might not be contactable at 92.239.103.64. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's been 37 years since I studied this, but my understanding is that the acute and circumflex are two-mora accents, with the tonal peak on the first mora for acute and the second mora for circumflex, while the grave is a single-mora falling accent. That would mean only acute and circumflex contrast because the grave is only found on short syllables. In fact, I was taking Mandarin Chinese at about the same time, and I noticed that the grave had pretty much the same tonal contour in both languages: a rather sharp and short drop. I would also mention that long syllables include vowel+resonant, so "en" is a long syllable, and that the Lithuanian accents are quite different from the Ancient Greek ones that use the same diacritics. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz: The first problem with that line of reasoning comes in the dative plural of dovanà (“gift”), namely "dovanóms", where the final syllable is overlong. Kushnir treats the two mora as being the start and end of the <o>, and regards the <m> as extra-moraic. The next is that as the first vowel of an acute syllable, <i> and <u> get the grave accent because they don't, in good Lithuanian, appreciably lengthen. The story told at w:Lithuanian accentuation#Not lengthening diphthongs is:
- In the acute cases of the diphthongs starting in i, u (i, u + l, m, n, r; ui), the first element does not lengthen and tense in a standard language, but an emphasis remains. Since it does not lengthen, the acute accent is marked by a grave. The first element of acute mixed diphthongs e, o + l, m, n, r of a foreign origin, does not lengthen as well: hèrbas – coat of arms, spòrtas – sport.
- When you take into account the more traditional per̃las and vérgas, we get a 3-way contrast. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz: The first problem with that line of reasoning comes in the dative plural of dovanà (“gift”), namely "dovanóms", where the final syllable is overlong. Kushnir treats the two mora as being the start and end of the <o>, and regards the <m> as extra-moraic. The next is that as the first vowel of an acute syllable, <i> and <u> get the grave accent because they don't, in good Lithuanian, appreciably lengthen. The story told at w:Lithuanian accentuation#Not lengthening diphthongs is:
- It's been 37 years since I studied this, but my understanding is that the acute and circumflex are two-mora accents, with the tonal peak on the first mora for acute and the second mora for circumflex, while the grave is a single-mora falling accent. That would mean only acute and circumflex contrast because the grave is only found on short syllables. In fact, I was taking Mandarin Chinese at about the same time, and I noticed that the grave had pretty much the same tonal contour in both languages: a rather sharp and short drop. I would also mention that long syllables include vowel+resonant, so "en" is a long syllable, and that the Lithuanian accents are quite different from the Ancient Greek ones that use the same diacritics. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Insaneguy1083 I'm seriously confused by your purportedly phonemic notation, as some seem to think it is suitable to transcribe, as the rime of a closed syllable, /ɛˑn/ for <én> and /ɛnˑ/ for <eñ>. As far as I can make out, <èn> would then be /ɛn/. The phonetic matter at hand here is whether there is a 3-way contrast. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Kashubian. Tagged for deletion by @Rakso43243, but it should go through the RFV process. Also pinging @Vininn126. Theknightwho (talk) 12:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Notably on Kashubian Wiktionary. Vininn126 (talk) 12:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP & WT don't count as sources - it's not uncommon for them to contain protologisms. --09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Rfv-sense: "shrine" (not in Dehkhoda). If it exists, probably just an occasional metaphor for a shrine as the saint's palace/court.--Saranamd (talk) 22:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Synonyms listed as "مقبره,آستانه[135]" both meaning shrine Light hearted sam (talk) 14:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Rfv-sense: I believe "audiencë" only refers to "audience" as in "formal meeting with a dignitary", not as in "group of people seeing a performance". It's not clear on the Albanian entry which meaning it should be (it only seems to be made clear when looking at the (I believe incorrect) translation of the English term). --Antondimak (talk) 22:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The Albanian Wiktionary gives only one meaning, that of a formal meeting. --Lambiam 20:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Spurious Persian entry created by Irman. لیرت itself is a ghost word found only in Early Modern dictionaries known to fabricate words (no citations of use in Dehkhoda), and then this was "restored" by Irman into a form not attested anywhere at all.--Saranamd (talk) 07:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Same as above, though Dehkhoda actually does have one poetic citation for نخراز attributed to Farrokhi.--Saranamd (talk) 07:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit class 3 verb of root धिष् (dhiṣ, “to sound”). Mentioned in Apte's dictionary, but Monier-Williams says about the root: "Probably invented to explain dhiṣaṇā, speech, hymn". Exarchus (talk) 13:55, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Originally marked by @Neo204 for speedy deletion. Thadh (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Originally marked by @Neo204 for speedy deletion. Thadh (talk) 14:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Same as above Thadh (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: I am not sure if this sarcastic usage of ":3" really is specific to the transgender community. I have seen plenty of cisgender people online use it as well. Mayhair (talk) 17:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- It was removed in diff. It indeed does not seem to be limited to trans communities or to be all that distinct from sense 1. - -sche (discuss) 04:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Khmer. កាលបរិច្ឆេត (kaal paʼrəccheet)
It doesn't seem attestable, although Headley77 has it. The IP user claims the correct version is កាលបរិច្ឆេទ (kaal bɑɑrəcchaet). See talk.
Pls use http://sealang.net/khmer/ for [Headley77] or [Headley97] --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
May 2024
[edit]Zhuang. Note that the entries are identical duplicates of one another. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- If Zhuang follows the same rules as most Latin-alphabet languages, then keep the common noun at haijfuengz and the proper noun at Haijfuengz. Provided both are verifiable, of course. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Ancient Greek. Listed in Liddell & Scott, who record it at P.Lond.3.909a.7, i.e. London Papyri vol. III n. 909a line 7 as far as I understand, which however does not seem to contain the word. The term itself isn't implausible so it may exist elsewhere, but I couldn't find it. We could resort to a dictionary-only terms' appendix. Catonif (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- The same reference can be found here, referencing page 170 explicitly, so this is not directly copied from Liddell & Scott. Apparently, the term is also found, in the combination “κακ λαλ ἄλφα” meaning “ΚΛΑ”, in BGU 153.17,[136] so it is not a hapax legomenon. --Lambiam 14:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Malayalam. Tagged for RFD with the reason "Unsourced" by User:Illustrious Lock, but not listed there. Doubts about the existence of a term are the domain of RFV, though, so I've brought it here instead. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Malagasy. Tagged but not listed by Corsicanwarrah (talk • contribs) over four years ago. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Thai.
Being an SOP. Just meaning "to vanish away", from หาย (hǎai, “to vanish”) + ไป (bpai, “away”).
--YURi (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Estonian. Tagged but not listed. Ultimateria (talk) 01:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Indonesian. Rfv-sense:
The sense for 'eternal era' is quoted in KBBI
- "(nomina) masa yang kekal, tidak berkesudahan"
- "(noun) an eternal, unending time"
— This unsigned comment was added by Udaradingin (talk • contribs) at 18:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC).
- There's already a thread for this above. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Translingual. Stumbling upon Wiktionary:Tea_room/2022/May#≬ while looking for something else reminded me of this entry and the general paucity of evidence for it being used to mean anything. - -sche (discuss) 04:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. Nominated for speedy deletion by the creator, but it seemed like a case for RFV to me. Ultimateria (talk) 20:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Never heard during my 40+ years of office life. It appears to be real though, as it gets more than 2000 hits in a Google search. I think this should be kept, but I would simply translate it as "threat or opportunity". --Hekaheka (talk) 16:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's good enough for YLE(https://areena.yle.fi/podcastit/1-50732114 and https://areena.yle.fi/podcastit/1-50564670) --Hekaheka (talk) 07:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's only one independent source (since they're from the same podcast), but it'd count as a third source, if we count online sources for this entry. It remains to be decided whether we should (as in whether we think it's common enough to be kept). — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 14:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- It's good enough for YLE(https://areena.yle.fi/podcastit/1-50732114 and https://areena.yle.fi/podcastit/1-50564670) --Hekaheka (talk) 07:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Claims to be "Old Kolami". Theknightwho (talk) 03:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Polish.
Seems very rare, I doubt it's in durable sources. Vininn126 (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- never heard it before in my entire life. Tashi (talk) 09:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This IP added the entries gå knep dig selv, gå og knull deg selv, gå och knulla dig själv, which I've speedied as ungrammatical (can̈́'t use "gå" like English "go"), along with gå knulle deg selv by @Sniptopsail and knulla dig själv. I don't know anything about Czech or Slovak though, so I'll leave these here. May want to go through this user's contributions.__Gamren (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Georgian.
User:Reordcraeft, a native speaker, says this term is incorrect.
See Talk:ჩაჩანი. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 19:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
June 2024
[edit]Translingual.
- i think this would qualify for deletion as per our previous decision not to include emojis whose only attestable meaning is the literal one. the person who created this page most likely didnt know that, as i'm not sure it's written as policy anywhere .... there was some discussion at one point though. —Soap— 19:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- in fact the peson who created this RFV also created the entry, so again i think they must not have known about the nonliteral usage requirement. —Soap— 19:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Tajik. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 17:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Serbo-Croatian. Converted from a speedy. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 13:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Please go to etimogy by the Oleg Trubačev, before deleting anithing. Because i founding this etimology in the trubačov etimology slovar. 188.129.85.34 17:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Etymological sources don't matter in this case. Serbo-Croatian is a WT:WDL, so three quotations showing the word being used'\, not just mentioned, must be provided. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- w:Use–mention distinction is relevant. Vininn126 (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Etymological sources don't matter in this case. Serbo-Croatian is a WT:WDL, so three quotations showing the word being used'\, not just mentioned, must be provided. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've had to block the IP, since they do not seem to care about whether the words are actually attestable. They have created a lot of entries in this past week or so. This may or may not be the full list: — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- мрена, болештина,
превез, переклад, преклоп, пречник, одрјезивати, одрезивати, одријезати, обрјезивати, обријезати, изрјезивати, изријезати, одријезак, објед, објећавати, јастријеб, прескок, пријескок, пријечник, пријеслика, премер, пријемјер, пријеговор, пријегршт, дјечко, одавдје, одакље, врјећица, вријећа, стријеха, пријеклоп, преклад, пријеклад,пријевјез,бољештина, бољестан, болијест, свирјеп, налевати, налијевати, излевати, излијевати, долевати, долијевати, слијев, клијен, мријена - The following have Latin entries, suggesting that they may exist (the Latin spellings should not be deleted if these fail RFV):
- мрена, болештина,
- All of them exist in the given phonology represent by the writing. I don’t mind if the Cyrillic doesn’t (or more likely: cannot be found by us on the computers): in order not to re-fuel the factional strifes, it can be given anyway. If a whole work is in Cyrillic then a Croatian author will be quoted in Cyrillic, for instance, and legitimately attestation-based dictionaries exist that include Kajkavian in Cyrillic (as RSHKJ). But since we are not a monolithic work but an internet publication, don’t make it a full-fledged entry and use
{{spelling of}}as on سرچه to redirect to the ecologically likely spelling, which also increases the accuracy since the author of the nominated entries obviously avoided regional labels in order not to give rise to questions about attestation, which he could have avoided by creating the Latin entries and soft-redirecting Cyrillic ones, laying less claim upon extance. - @Surjection: I don’t want to demotivate people. IP actually cared to add only what exists. As I explained on multiple occasions, the object of description is the word itself and not its graphic representation, which is a means to present it in the dictionary, even if from a well-attested language, and can be from audio only (which is also plenty from the West Balkans: which alphabet do we land at then? It cannot always be based on the, often vague, origin of the lyricist). So one adds drug slang of no clear spelling for languages employing imperfect writing systems such as English, German, and French, transcribed from rap lyrics: English bujj, German Flus arbitrarily chosen because the word needs a place, that is method to find it. Fay Freak (talk) 07:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Even more: — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 09:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- предел, превид, тријешња, превласт, прељуба, требник, превојница, приједак, пријеступник, пријеписка, пријетворба, премаз, преслика, ријез, довдје, грјехота, грехота, грјешница, вријело, вријети, врјева, преточ, пријеточ, пријелет, прелет, претер, пријетјер, пријепрека, пребир, пријебир, љептир, пријепорука, пријемаз, вихорити, пријепород, рјеченица, пријевојница, мријежа, осјека, тријебник, тријести, пријељуба, пријељуб, пријеврат, објећати, пријекид, пријевласт, вампијер, пријед, бријеза, приједјел, приједмет, пријепона, приједворје, пријевид
- Latin spelling exists:
- A heads-up to other admins; the editor who added these is repeatedly trying to get the RFV templates removed without a proper process (i.e. sufficient quotes). Their references, if they provide any, are also completely false, as they all lead to the same, unrelated entry. This to me suggests they're not here at all in good faith. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 09:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- At this point a speedy fail and ban seems in order. Vininn126 (talk) 09:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
Old English
Request for verification of the sense “fiend”. Following on from #werwulf, this word seems to be a hapax legomenon. Its occurrence in the four manuscripts of the one source may be seen at Citations:werewulf, wherein I assume the word means “werewolf”. I welcome any evidence that contradicts my suppositions, however. 0DF (talk) 17:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Request for verification of this word as the accusative plural of ἔκδοσις. Both Perseus and the TLG seem to show the noun, with either nominative singular or accusative plural, as "ἔκδοσις"; acute accent on the epsilon, not the omicron. Perseus seems to show only one use of the word with accent on the omicron, but either way this is clearly used as the nominative singular. Zksouthon (talk) 07:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- The accusative plural is never ἔκδοσις (ékdosis) with the accent on the epsilon; the usual Attic form is ἐκδόσεις (ekdóseis). There are dialects, including Epic/Ionic and Doric, in which i-stems have an accusative plural in -ῑς (-īs) (which will attract the accent to the omicron), but I don't know whether this specific word is ever attested with that ending. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Can't find any good uses. Not coincidentally added by good old Verbo/Fastifex, the pederastic scourge of Wiktionary's early years. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 09:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Bengali. One ghit from 20 hours ago - considering the volume of IP editing, this looks like some kind of meme and not a real entry. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 22:48, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Uyghur. Likely made up, aren't listed on UG-EN, UG-JA or UG-UG dictionaries I have at hand, bring up no credible sources on a google search. And as Hiztegilari mentioned in the Tea room (2020), this person seems to have very little knowledge on Uyghur. The pages (identical in content) are riddled with mistakes with regards to the grammar of the language. Orexan (talk) 07:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Pawnee. Just a non-existing form; also, there is already the correct asaáki. (I added the reference and some info to asakis at first not realizing that there was a correct entry too.) Amtin (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Yiddish. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 21:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Might have been copied from Reddit (not an attestation). --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Arikara. Possibly a misspelling of kaWIsakUx? @Hk5183 as the creator. Thadh (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Claims to be "Old Kolami". Theknightwho (talk) 20:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Swedish. Rfv-sense:
sexually exhausted. This has been a running joke for a long time, possibly even pre-Internet, appearing on lists of unusual words. This doesnt rule out its existence, but w:sv:pömsig and external sites tell us that people using it sincerely are outnumbered by those using it as a mention ("you know what they say in Sweden?") and perhaps people using in fiction where accurate language usage is not required. also consider that Sweden is so thoroughly English-speaking that there might even be people exoticizing their own language. i apologize i cant really help with finding cites. if we do find cites, i still think we should have a usage note explaining that the derived usage is mostly found in artificial contexts. thanks, —Soap— 10:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- we also have valuable information on talk:pömsig from a native speaker who i think expresses what i said better than i said it myself. —Soap— 11:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- also, do we know offhand what the etymology for this word is? is it a children's language game, C1VC2C3-INFL > pVC2C1-INFL, a one-off deformation, or an unrelated word? Thanks, —Soap— 12:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Scottish Gaelic. I only found ban-sìth, ban-sìthe, and bean-shìthe on Am Faclair Beag and LearnGaelic. --YukaSylvie (talk) 00:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, though sìdh is defined herein as an alternative form of sìth, and Am Faclair Beag does have leabaidh ban-sìdh, so the spelling is recorded. Maybe it should be modelled after the entry sìdh. –Konanen (talk) 13:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Mark (2003) has it. I'll add it to the entry. Thadh (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
Yiddish. Rfv-sense: "a greeting" (noun).
I suspect this was simply a mistake, as the entry was missing the interjection sense (i.e. when the word is used as a greeting). That's now been corrected, but I guess it's plausible it could be used as a noun to refer to greetings, in the same way English hello can ("I gave her a hello"). Theknightwho (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
{{R:yi:CYED}}glosses it exclusively as a noun meaning 'peace', but does provide some phrases in which it seems to mean 'a greeting', e.g. (op)gebn sholem 'extend a welcome to; shake hands' and entfern sholem 'return a greeting'. Interestingly, CYED does not mention it being used as a greeting at all; only sholem-aleykhem is listed as an interjection meaning "hello". Nevertheless, I'd be surprised if no Yiddish speaker had ever used sholem alone as a greeting. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)- @Mahagaja I don't feel in a position to add quotations for Yiddish, but since it's an LDL either of those phrases would seem to qualify this sense for inclusion. Theknightwho (talk) 20:30, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- For a common noun one expects to find uses of a plural (שלומס?) While that term is found, the hits appear to be for the genitive of the proper noun. --Lambiam 20:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Kërko emrin reports 61 women named Dita, so already not very common, and, in their phrasing, less that 10 people (which is likely nobody) named with the masculine equivalent Dit. Of course also not in {{R:sq:Dražić:2019}} nor {{R:sq:Kostallari:1982}}. Catonif (talk) 09:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Welsh, = minimal pair. Yes, Welsh pâr = “pair”, but I've never heard of the alleged Welsh *minimol (“minimal”) and nor is it defined by Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru. 0DF (talk) 16:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Llusiduonbach created the entry, maybe they know more. The word minimol isn't in GPC, but it is in Geiriadur yr Academi. That doesn't verify the existence of pâr minimol, of course, but at least it suggests the word isn't completely made up. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Mahāgaja: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Is the presentation “minimol m|inimol” meant to indicate that it's stressed mínimol? Searching google books:"minimol" yields 4,660 results, which are too many to wade through for the Welsh ones, so I searched google books:"minimol" "yn" instead, which reduced the number to a more manageable 122, the first two of which are Welsh, which I quote:
- Peintiodd Sisley’r ddau ddarn yn ystod dwy flynedd olaf ei fywyd, pan oedd yn dioddef o ganser, ac maent yn dangos y brys a’r cyfansoddiad minimol yr oedd Monet yn eu darganfod yn Ffrainc yr un pryd.[137]
- Painted in the last two years of Sisley’s life, when he was suffering from cancer, they display the urgency that was being discovered at the same time in France by Monet.
- Lleihau faint o ddefnyddiau sydd eu hangen drwy ddefnyddio dylunio minimol a pheidio ag ychwanegu nodweddion dylunio diangen.[138]
- Reducing the quantity of materials which are needed by using minimal design and not adding unneeded design features.
- The first one has a parallel English translation, which I used; however, it's a free-ish translation which omits the “a’r cyfansoddiad minimol” of the Welsh, which I would render “and the minimal composition”.
- So Welsh minimol is attestable, although it strikes me as non-standard. Pâr minimol is a pretty straightforward calque of minimal pair, but google books:"pâr minimol" does not evidence its existence. Not everything is on Google Books, however. 0DF (talk) 02:59, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I would call something listed in a print dictionary published by Bangor Univeristy on behalf of the Welsh Language Commissioner "nonstandard", but it could certainly be labeled
{{lb|cy|rare}}if someone were to make a dictionary entry for it. Also, at [139] it says, "The vertical line | in a Welsh word indicates that the main stress falls on the vowel following it", so yes, m|inimol means it's pronounced /ˈmɪnɪmɔl/. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:06, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I would call something listed in a print dictionary published by Bangor Univeristy on behalf of the Welsh Language Commissioner "nonstandard", but it could certainly be labeled
- @Mahāgaja: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Is the presentation “minimol m|inimol” meant to indicate that it's stressed mínimol? Searching google books:"minimol" yields 4,660 results, which are too many to wade through for the Welsh ones, so I searched google books:"minimol" "yn" instead, which reduced the number to a more manageable 122, the first two of which are Welsh, which I quote:
- @Mahāgaja: Thank you. No, to be clear, I wasn't advocating that we "officially" call the term nonstandard, but only saying that it "feels" nonstandard to me. 0DF (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- @0DF: Upon further reflection, I think if an entry is created for it, "formal" might be a better label than "rare". My impression is of a word that's used in writing, particularly in certain specialized fields, but not really used in conversation or more casual writing. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Mahāgaja: Thank you. No, to be clear, I wasn't advocating that we "officially" call the term nonstandard, but only saying that it "feels" nonstandard to me. 0DF (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Mahāgaja: Yes, but I think "technical" better fits that usage. 0DF (talk) 14:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Turkmen. It's not even a word in Turkmen, it doesn't exist in any of our dictionaries available on Wiktionary and I've never seen this word, as a native speaker. Magyar srác (talk) 11:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Please make sure to sign your edits with
~~~~. Other than that, I agree. I have checked a few on-line dictionaries for Turkmen, and I cannot verify the existence of this word. -Konanen (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Magyar srác Please do not put
{{d|rfv failed}}on a term which has only been listed at RFV for 3 days, since terms have to have been listed here for one month before they can be removed. Theknightwho (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)- Well, as a native speaker of Turkmen, I have never seen this word in my entire life, and I looked in references and books, and looked for other natives on this site, they confirmed the same as me. And I thought that was enough of a check, sorry for the mistake. Magyar srác (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Komi-Permyak. Tagged but not listed. Thadh (talk) 13:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Ancient Greek
RFV for the Attic Greek spelling ἀπέταλος; the Ionic Greek spelling, ἀπέτηλος, is attested in the feminine accusative singular absolute (ἀπέτηλον) and the feminine nominative singular comparative (ἀπετηλοτέρη) in Koine Greek sources. Katharevousa ἀπέταλος (apétalos) is acknowledged to exist, but is that Attic form attested earlier, perhaps during the Byzantine Greek period? Beware Google Books' OCR errors when searching old Greek texts; e.g., this purported instance of ἀπέταλος is in fact ?ἀπέϛειλες (apésteiles) and this one supposedly of ἀπετάλου is in fact ἀπεϛάλϑαι (apestálthai). 0DF (talk) 14:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Somehow misspellings of ဆင့်, ဆီ? Thadh (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sense "ten" is cited, but sense "chicken" remains. Thadh (talk) 18:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Pwo doesn't even have creaky voice... Thadh (talk) 15:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Etymology 1 is seemingly a misspelling of ထိုဝ် (thò), but the second one I couldn't find in any paper. Thadh (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
STEDT and Proto-Karen papers [140] [141] [142] may help you with pronunciations on both Eastern/Western Pwo (they read and write different). Look for more papers/journals by Luangthongkum around 2013. I don't know how to write Eastern Pwo (I think I lost) but we can spell back by Kato [143] pp. 31-40 (Buddhist system is prefered, not older Christian) responding to reading. (But I do have Western Pwo lexicon.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 04:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: Those are useful papers for Proto-Karen, but do they actually include Eastern Pwo terms? The second paper describes "N-Pwo" and "S-Pwo" as the Pwo lects spoken in Lamphun and Uthai Thani, respectively. Both are in Thailand, whereas Eastern Pwo is spoken mostly in Myanmar, and seem to be Northern Pwo lects, instead. Thadh (talk) 07:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- [[w:Pwo Karen languages]|There are 4 Pwo Karen languages. Southern Pwo in Thailand is the subset ~5% of Eastern Pwo (kjp) in both countries. Western Pwo (pwo) is purely spoken in Myanmar near Irrawaddy delta. There are also Northern Pwo (pww) around Mae Hong Son, Tak, south of Chiang Mai, and surely Lamphun; and Phrae (Northeastern) Pwo (kjt) around Phrae, Lampang, and Chiang Rai. pww and kjt are purely spoken in Thailand.
- Proto-Karen papers only mention Southern Pwo that can assume Eastern Pwo having same reading. Additionally, I just found the Pwo of Om Koi (very south district of Chiang Mai; it's Northern Pwo) workingpapers/Omkoi Pwo Karen Phonology and Orthography.pdf paper] that writes in Thai system.
- Uthai Thani that speaks Southern Pwo is Eastern Pwo either; they are separated group. So, you can imply N-Pwo means pww and S-Pwo means kjp. This is widely dividing. It may have different details between provinces, or even villages.--Octahedron80 (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: if you compare the pronunciations of S-Pwo as given in the Proto-Karen papers, and the Hpa-an Pwo forms given by Kato, you'll see they are widely different, both in tone and vowel quality. How certain are you that S-Pwo is indeed an Eastern Pwo lect rather than, for instance, a Northern one? Thadh (talk) 19:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Uthai Thani that speaks Southern Pwo is Eastern Pwo either; they are separated group. So, you can imply N-Pwo means pww and S-Pwo means kjp. This is widely dividing. It may have different details between provinces, or even villages.--Octahedron80 (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Because Phetchaburi, Kanchanaburi, Ratchaburi, and Uthai Thani provinces that speak Southern Pwo are located near Mon state. (They migrated with Mons since the ancient time.) (See at - Also spoken in:). Also noted in Eastern Pwo language from the beginning. Have you check Glottolog yet? [144] About Om Koi people and nearby, it is surely Northern Pwo. Large community there. Om Koi is also the word in the language. (I guess, because it's not Thai word.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- However, I cannot sure how different between the regional Southern Pwo and the greater Eastern Pwo. Same word can be vary in many places (similar to Chinese e.g.) I didn't know exactly where the authors go to interview. I still want to have some lexicon, if we could read them from that Incubator. I am sure one thing: people in Thailand will write it with Thai.--Octahedron80 (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Octahedron80: As I've said in the first message, the second paper you've sent (A view on Proto-Karen phonology and lexicon) provides a location for the Southern Pwo fieldwork, on page vii: It's a village in the easternmost district of Uthai Thani. That's quite a long way from the border region that Eastern Pwo occupies. In fact, this paper suggests that the Thai varieties of Pwo are not Eastern at all, and rather a "West-Central Pwo" language, which is mutually unintelligible with the Eastern varieties of Myanmar. I guess we're about to have yet another Pwo code? Thadh (talk) 21:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- However, I cannot sure how different between the regional Southern Pwo and the greater Eastern Pwo. Same word can be vary in many places (similar to Chinese e.g.) I didn't know exactly where the authors go to interview. I still want to have some lexicon, if we could read them from that Incubator. I am sure one thing: people in Thailand will write it with Thai.--Octahedron80 (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
PS You may want to contact 咽頭べさ because he is a Mon person that collecting ancient literacies that may have Eastern Pwo Karen source because EPK system derived from Mon (ask him at Mon Wiktionary). — This unsigned comment was added by Octahedron80 (talk • contribs).
- Considering what this person claimed about themselves and their history of communication I am hesitant to do so, I doubt they will have anything useful to add. Thadh (talk) 07:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mind if Eastern Pwo words will be deleted. Because I have no more papers to show. Better ask 咽頭べさ for tangible lexicon or news etc. About Northern Pwo (Om Koi) and Western Pwo, I already have resources. --Octahedron80 (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:04, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 23:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 23:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from WT:RFDO.
Polish. Protologism/neologism that is barely attested and only limited to internet usage. The exact definition of the term is nowhere to be found. JimiY☽ru 07:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've added two cites from journal-sites for now. There are plenty of other Internet hits, which we sometimes accept according to WT:CFI. It's definitely not a protologisms, it's been around since at least 2019 based on the sources. The current definition is fine based on the quotations. Vininn126 (talk) 07:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- I've also added a mention from Poradnik językowy. Vininn126 (talk) 08:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 14:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:07, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Usual word seems to just be ဖၠုံ. Thadh (talk) 14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:07, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Cited. Thadh (talk) 22:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 14:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Rfv-sense: "bile". @Octahedron80 as the one who added the sense, maybe you remember where you got it from? I can't find it in the usual papers by Kato. Thadh (talk) 15:22, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't remember how I got that. See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:12, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Thadh (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Pwo. Again some phonemes that simply don't exist in Pwo. Thadh (talk) 21:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
See #ထေဝ် --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Polish.
Vietnamese. Port Moresby (capital of Papua New Guinea).
- I found only two cites, but in the same newspaper and no author given, meaning they may not even be independent. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Kashubian. Originally from Robert Goh (2018 March 29) English Kashubian Lexicon, no longer a trusted source. Vininn126 (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Kashubian. Originally from Robert Goh (2018 March 29) English Kashubian Lexicon, no longer a trusted source. Vininn126 (talk) 13:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Albanian. Deleted out of process. Thadh (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Attested in Oxford Albanian-English Dictionary by Newmark, maybe be archaic. Chihunglu83 (talk) 23:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Odia (Oriya) characters with nuqta
[edit]There are several entries in the Odia (Oriya) writing system such as କ଼, ଖ଼, ଗ଼, ଜ଼, ଝ଼, ଫ଼ and ଷ଼ and there is potential for more. It should be noted that a similar argument was submitted for the ICANN's Root Zone LGR for the Odia script in 2018. I was involved in this public consultation and interviewed several linguists, Odia-language experts including university professors, and Unicode and other technology experts. The outcome of these conversations affirming that the existing କ, ଖ, ଗ, ଚ, ଜ, ଫ suffice for all loanwords and other languages sharing the Odia script are documented in two white papers (1 and 2). At the end, the proposed nuqta combination to କ, ଖ,ଗ, ଚ and ଜ were discarded on the basis of non-availability of citable resource nor widespread use, and only ଡ and ଢ nuqta combinations were allowed. Interestingly, all the nuqta combined non-widely used Odia characters in question (କ଼, ଖ଼, ଗ଼, ଜ଼, ଝ଼, ଫ଼ and ଷ଼), except ଗ଼ which was created by a non-native speaker, were created by IP users. These characters do not comply with any of the attestation criteria. They should be deleted or redirected to existing equivalents. Psubhashish (talk) 22:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
July 2024
[edit]Upper Sorbian. I didn't find it in any of the dictionaries we have in the reference templates. Stríðsdrengur · 21:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Malay. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 15:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Gaulish. Is it actually attested, or should it be moved to Reconstruction: space? —Mahāgaja · talk 16:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- “benna”, in William Smith et al., editor (1890), A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, London: William Wayte. G. E. Marindin
quotes Festus: “Benna lingua Gallica genus vehiculi appellatur, unde vocantur combennones eadem benna sedentes.”
lingua Gallica = in/from the Gallic/Gaulish language. Let's discuss if this qualifies as Latin or Gaulish. Similar cases: - --2003:DE:3717:71DD:A495:E64D:4F92:290C 21:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- So it's not attested in a Gaulish-language text; it's attested in a Latin text that says "The Gauls call this benna". I don't know whether Wiktionary has a settled custom on how to treat attestations like that; it's a gray area. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Hawaiian. Unsourced and not in any dictionary on Wehewehe. -saph 🍏 20:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- An obvious error for kaena, so I moved it there. The quote in the entry had that spelling until an IP "corrected" it, and that spelling is in the Combined Hawaiian Dictionary, while "keana" is only in a few apparently unrelated place names. Let's leave this open for now, and if anyone has any evidence to the contrary, we can always move it back. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. -saph 🍏 21:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Hawaiian. Pukui & Elbert gives hoʻaʻā and the entry is unsourced. -saph 🍏 21:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. I also question that Huệ Châu means Wales, as given in the translation table there. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Khmer. --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Balinese. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:51, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Dutch, only RFV concerning the label 'regional'. Regional (Belgian) variants that no doubt exist are: gelle, golle, gulle, gijlie, gellie. But 'gijlui zijt' in Google Search only gives 3 results: 2 books from 19th century (so archaic) and Wiktionary. Exarchus (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- By the way, the translation of 'Gijlieden zijt' as 'You lot are' at gijlieden is inappropriate as the most common context where you would find that phrase is in archaic bible translations. Exarchus (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is indeed not regional: [145] (Dutch author born in Amsterdam, putting the word in the mouth of Hendrickje Stoffels, addressing Rembrandt in plain Dutch); [146] (Utrecht-based author in a Dutch literary magazine published in Amsterdam, putting the word in the mouth of an inhabitant of the Veluwe who speaks plain Dutch); [147] (article in an Amsterdam-based weekly magazine by a doctor, putting the word in the mouth of a woman speaking plain Dutch). --Lambiam 22:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Lambiam My first idea when asking this question was actually whether this was used in any region today (like 'gelle' etc. no doubt is). But maybe the intention of that label was simply to say that 'gijlui' is/was archaic, but only in certain regions. That might still be true, because your first two examples are from people from the province of Gelderland. It was definitely more colloquial than 'gijlieden'. Exarchus (talk) 06:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- From Gelderland, but in one case a speaker born in 1626 and fictionally speaking in 1642, and for the other case a fictional character born around 1743 and speaking in 1808, so this is not helpful for deciding regional use today. --Lambiam 07:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- True, I think note 6) in the Dutch personal pronouns template needs rewriting, because it suggests that 'gijlui' or 'gijlieden' are commonly used in that form. Exarchus (talk) 07:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- From Gelderland, but in one case a speaker born in 1626 and fictionally speaking in 1642, and for the other case a fictional character born around 1743 and speaking in 1808, so this is not helpful for deciding regional use today. --Lambiam 07:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Lambiam My first idea when asking this question was actually whether this was used in any region today (like 'gelle' etc. no doubt is). But maybe the intention of that label was simply to say that 'gijlui' is/was archaic, but only in certain regions. That might still be true, because your first two examples are from people from the province of Gelderland. It was definitely more colloquial than 'gijlieden'. Exarchus (talk) 06:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Komi-Permyak. The word is not found in the following dictionaries that I have consulted: В. Н. Коколева 1993: Коми-Пермяцко-Русский Русско-Коми-Пермяцкий Словарь, Р. М. Баталова 1985: Коми-Пермяцко-Русскӧй Словарь and П. С. Кузнецов 1940: Русско-Коми-Пермяцкӧй Словарь. Илья А. Латушкин (talk) 08:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- No appearence of Permyak either in e.g. Wichmann–Uotila 1942,
{{R:kpv:KESK}},{{R:urj:Csucs:2005}}. This might have been intended as a Komi–Zyrian entry, where this certainly exists and is indeed already linked from this page. --Tropylium (talk) 13:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English#Krvatkondre.
Sranan Tongo. I cannot attest this outside the Wikiverse. I suppose it's a neologism created by a Sranan Tongo Wikipedia editor.--Appolodorus1 (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- The anonymous IP editor, blocked for block evasion, created entries for the supposed names of Croatia in Abkhaz, Acehnese, Chechen, Cherokee, Dhivehi, Doteli, Dutch, English, Faroese, Gottscheerish, Guarani, Haitian Creole, Hawaiian, Japanese, Kabyle, Kannada, Kazakh, Khmer, Korean, Lao, Latgalian, Lithuanian, Lower Sorbian, Mandarin, Mongolian, Northern Luri, Oromok, Polish, Punjabi, Samogitian, Sinhalese, Slovak, Somali, Sranan Tongo, Swazi, Turkish, Urdu, Uyghur, Veneto, Volapük, Wallon, Waray, Wolof, Zazaki, Zealandic, and Zulu. There seems no reason to assume they are, specifically, a Sranantongo editor. Apparently, they got hold of a source listing names of countries in many languages, possibly the "Also Known As" section at mapcarta. Croatia is not the only country that got this treatment. The article on Croatia on the Sranantongo Wikipedia is also named Krvatkondre, but the editors on this Wikipedia do not know Sranantongo and just make up words, so this carries no weight. The letter ⟨v⟩ does not occur in Sranantongo orthography, and an ⟨r⟩ that is not syllable-final is always followed by a vowel, so this made-up term is not even believably Sranantongo. --Lambiam 21:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Eastern Mari. I didn't find it in any of the dictionaries I have as a reference. Stríðsdrengur (talk)
- @Stríðsdrengur: Found one mention here. Thadh (talk) 13:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I misread, it's actually шереҥге with a ҥ. Pretty sure old orthographies used н instead of ҥ though, so I'm sure this form is also findable. Thadh (talk) 13:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Hindi. Rfv-sense: Noun. Occurs in dictionaries {{R:Platts}} and {{R:hi:McGregor}}, I suspect it may be because the Arabic etymon is a noun. --Svartava (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Old Irish. As intuitive as "house of illness" as a term for "hospital" is, I can't find this anywhere, not even in Middle Irish (the language that most dubious terms labeled Old Irish turn out to be in). —Mahāgaja · talk 21:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is Táin Bó Cúailnge l. 1125:
- Níba teg legis nó othrais úaim-se dó co bruinne ṁbratha.
- There won't be a house of healing or tending from me for him until the day of doom.
- But I'm not sure if this meets the CFI. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Probably simply a term used in a Latin text, interpreted by Köbler as maybe having OHG origin. That's anyway how I interpret his entry given his 'Quelle' is the same Latin text with the first Latin attestation. There's no 'fello' at https://awb.saw-leipzig.de/?sigle=AWB&lemid=A00001.
If *fillō/fillijō is too dubious as etymology for Latin 'fello', then I'm fine with having no entry for it, but it's at least a common reconstruction.
pinging @Victar, @Leasnam Exarchus (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- And in case there would be any doubt: does one really think adfadumire, mallobergus, mortuadus etc. are bona fide Old High German simply because they occur in Köbler's dictionary? (that's why there's "lat.-ahd.?") Exarchus (talk) 18:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Choctaw. Nominated by User:Kmack with rationale "Entry means "dog grandmother", apparent typo for "okti ipokni" - cannot find either phrase in any reference". Pinging also User:BartGerardsSodermans who has edited the page. Ultimateria (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I checked both the New Choctaw Dictionary and A Dictionary of the Choctaw Language by C. Byington and could not find any reference to either "ofi ipokni" or "okti ipokni". The original creator of the page had a bit of track record for some sloppy etymology sections (which my edit fixed), but they did seem to have an interest in Choctaw particularly. If they were still active they could maybe explain the term and what reference they used, but considering they don't appear to be active anymore I think it might be best to delete the entry. Though @Kmack is far more familiar with Choctaw than I am, so I'd leave any such decision to them. BartGerardsSodermans (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Old Frisian noun. I can only find attestations for the adjective, as Old Frisian fatt, fet. Leasnam (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Polish. Any time I see this online it seems to be referencing the fable, i.e. not fully adapted as an idiom into the language. Vininn126 (talk) 09:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
German, tagged by IP. Jberkel 09:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
RFV-failed. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 23:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Old Tupi.
Ignoring the wrong spelling in the page name, I've found a single mention to this word in a 18th century dictionary as part of the compound piri pipóca, translated as reed. No mention to “sudden burst of a surface” or “popcorn” and the page doesn't cite any source to these senses.
As “descendants”, there's Nheengatu pipuka, only found in two early 1900's century dictionaries and apparently not used by current speakers, and Portuguese pipoca, which I couldn't find any attestation prior to the 19th century. Trooper57 (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- (Notifying NoKiAthami, RodRabelo7): . Trooper57 (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete, per nom. RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Arabic, created by User:LinguisticMystic. Supposedly form VIII of the root ش ر ف, but no such verb is mentioned anywhere except in Lane, where it only has the meaning "to stand upright", not any of the other meanings claimed for it ("to raise", "to aspire", "to honor, show esteem"), and per Lane may be a mistranscription (at least that's what I think Lane is saying). The last supposed meaning is even accompanied by a usex; if this is spurious, it's an extremely bad sign as it indicates many or most of the other stuff added by this user may be equally spurious and should be mass-deleted. @Fenakhay, Fay Freak as editors who may know what's going on here. Benwing2 (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: It is copied from the root page created by (a sock of) Gfarnab, who overestimated his language skills and got banned for it but found it in the referenced Diccionario avanzado árabe 2005, I rarely ever use and frankly only because of the entries he created, as equal to form X glossed with erguirse, empinarse + ه, aspirar a + إلى, which explains everything as bad translation of meanings only stem X has, since e.g. you can find اِسْتَشْرَفَ إِلَى (istašrafa ʔilā) but not اِشْتَرَفَ إِلَى (ištarafa ʔilā). Fay Freak (talk) 05:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak I see. Thanks. I went ahead and deleted the page. It sounds like LinguisticMystic also has a problem editing languages they don't know and may need to be blocked for this; they even made up a usex based on this spurious verb. Benwing2 (talk) 06:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have recreated it with cites as an obsolete form of meaning similar to X or IV, defining as an alternative form of the former instead of the previous imaginative content. For sure it never existed in Modern Standard Arabic, of no current usage by the time Lane was writing, perhaps stilted in post-classical poetry and kept in the said 21st century dictionary of Corriente by inertia. Fay Freak (talk) 07:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: They added many uxs a while ago, which I initially thought were a great addition. However, I ended up correcting many of them due to grammatical problems, incorrect diacritics, and some being unidiomatic. It would be good to revert them all, except the ones I have corrected. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 10:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak I see. Thanks. I went ahead and deleted the page. It sounds like LinguisticMystic also has a problem editing languages they don't know and may need to be blocked for this; they even made up a usex based on this spurious verb. Benwing2 (talk) 06:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Greek. Verification is requested for these as anything other than straightforward misspellings of καινούριος (kainoúrios) and καινούργιος (kainoúrgios) respectively. Voltaigne (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Ultimateria (talk) 20:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "to play an instrument". — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- One of the transitive senses is, more generally, “to use (something) to produce sound”, seen most commonly in the reflexive form “zich roeren”. For example, “mensen die hun stem roeren in het publieke debat”.[148] --Lambiam 11:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any significant contact between Spanish and Dutch in the era of the Spanish Netherlands? If so, it could be a semantic loan from Spanish tocar, which means both 'touch' and 'play a musical instrument'. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- There are not many entries in Category:Dutch terms derived from Spanish, and I spotted none that might be semantic loans. Charles V grew up in a Dutch-speaking environment and although known as a polyglot probably spoke better Dutch than Spanish. The Governors of the Habsburg Netherlands were not themselves Spanish until 1559, when Philips II of Spain appointed his sister, Margaret of Parma. The Dutch Revolt ensued almost immediately. Contact between Spanish speakers and Dutch speakers will mostly have been confined to exchanges between belligerents. --Lambiam 19:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any significant contact between Spanish and Dutch in the era of the Spanish Netherlands? If so, it could be a semantic loan from Spanish tocar, which means both 'touch' and 'play a musical instrument'. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Here are four uses: [149], [150], [151], [152]. --Lambiam 19:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added those quotations. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 21:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
August 2024
[edit]Yoruba. Nominated for speedy deletion with rationale "This letter is not in Yoruba nor is it used in Yoruba writing". Pinging creator @Kwamikagami. Ultimateria (talk) 16:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- It may be that this is no longer standard orthography, with ńǹ being used instead. However, there's a lot of older literature with the caron and circumflex.
- That said, it wouldn't be a big deal if the page were deleted, given the marginal use and lack of examples. I don't have any resources with me and can't find any examples online. kwami (talk) 21:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Coptic. Created by an anon. Since it derives from Ancient Greek Ἀρσινόη (Arsinóē), I can't help but wonder if the creator made a typo and this entry should actually be at ⲁⲣⲥⲓⲛⲟⲏ (arsinoē). —Mahāgaja · talk 14:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: some context may help: the IP is part of a block belonging to the Baltimore County, MD public school district (see Special:Contributions/69.67.80.0/20). It looks to me like someone has made a hobby of transliterating between scripts. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Belarusian. Łacinka is obsolete, any entry in this alphabet must have references, @Insaneguy1083 as creator. — This unsigned comment was added by Наименее Полезное (talk • contribs) at 15:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC).
- I don’t think so, it’s a common word. For our less-Slavic readers: Used anywhere where English uses compounds with mountain. It is excluded a priori that no botanical or zoological word came out in the Latin alphabet that has it. Fay Freak (talk) 16:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I formally added three Łacinka quotations from three books published by different authors in this diff. But the Łacinka spelling can be always derived from its contemporary Cyrillic spelling at least after 1918, because we know the exact conversion rules. --Ssvb (talk) 05:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Persian.
Not in Dehkhoda or Steingass. Added by problematic user Irman.--Saranamd (talk) 06:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Serbo-Croatian. smallpox
Is this correct? From what I can find, this is a term for chicken pox (i.e. the disease caused by the varicella virus). Theknightwho (talk) 16:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- In ticket:2024080410004938 (wiktionary VRT queue) a reader writes in, "
The word Kozice in Croatian means small shrimp, small goat or small pox. But on wiki dictionary it’s listed as ‘smallpox’ with a link to smallpox the disease. The has led to many menus in Croatia for many years adding the word smallpox to their menus as Google translate uses this definition.
". I have not researched this personally. Xaosflux (talk) 01:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: I think it means pox in general, amongst a selection of other terms, chickenpox being vodene kozice / водене козице, and vodene koze / водене козе, hence derived term from the former simple kozičav / козичав ‘pox-ridden, pockennarbig, blatternarbig’ in a 1898 field record of an Austro-Hungarian doctor practising in Bosnia, though he glossed the former restrictedly chickenpox while the latter smallpox.
- Contextually then of course it can mean one specific disease:
- 1996, Sibila Petlevski, Moj Antonio Diavolo / Francuska suita, Fraktura, published 2007, →ISBN, page 109:
- “Pa to su kozice. Obične vodene kozice. Zar ih nisi imao kad bio mali?” […] Lječnik je samo potrvdio pretpostavku i zapisao dijagnozu: varicella u dobro razvijenoj formi. […]
- “’Tis pox. Common water-pox. Hadst thou not had them when thou wast a child?” […] The physician but affirmed the assumption and wrote the diagnosis: Low-grade Varicella. […]
- Reliable native-speaker’s Ivan Štambuk gloss is naturally not completely off the wall, but his taxonomic distinctions were limited and coverage of vulgar designations for infectious diseases basic. He added words that he knew fast without possibly disserting the semantic ranges when he would have needed biological reference. Sometimes when the sample size is large enough only you find that specificity is wrong. Fay Freak (talk) 14:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Belarusian. It is not verifiable in dictionaries that I know, corpus, books, etc., and it is also not in my daily use. Наименее Полезное (talk)
- @Наименее Полезное: The academic dictionaries are very sterile and censored. I have added some quotations from Google Books. Also there's a page in Vacłaŭ Łastoŭski's dictionary from 1924, which suggests to translate the Russian "залупа" as "залупіна" or "чапец". --Ssvb (talk) 19:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Tagalog for metaphysics. Tagged but not listed. Ultimateria (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Ancient Greek. Rfv-sense: fishhook (etymology 2). Apparently listed in Beekes' etymological dictionary, but I can't find it in any general dictionary. All dictionaries list only the sense of etymology 1. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's a Hesychian word. I think we include these. @AntiquatedMan. I still think we should have a category for them. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, Hesychian lemma's are usually treated as an exception, and can be included. Of course, if it can be proven to be connected to the other meaning, e.g. as 'bait, promised reward' rather than 'fish hook', that would make the case stronger. BTW, on Logeion the sense is included in the LSJ entry.
- As concerns categorization, I would be in favor of a 'Hesychian lemma' category, perhaps even more so if nested in a larger 'lexicalist/lexicon' category, together with e.g. (the) Suda. AntiquatedMan (talk) 07:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- I also wonder if we can invoke some sort of metathesis to connect it to e.g. Arabic ʔibra 'needle'. Of course, we would need to find a source that proposes such an etymology to include it. AntiquatedMan (talk) 10:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Isn't mentioned anywhere. Created by new user. Exarchus (talk) 00:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- The 3-person singular form isn't frequently mentioned but it other conjugated forms, especially the imperfect and future forms are. Still, It is evidenced by the Arthashastra and several Rigvedic Padārthas like [1]. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 11:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Rigvedic form in 1.176.03 is a compound adjective (or did you mean something else?).
- In the Arthashastra, it does indeed look like it is the present verb. Exarchus (talk) 12:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I meant the Padārtha (Word-meaning). Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- But I'm thinking this might rather be a commentary on the Arthashastra. (If so, from when does it date?)
- @Dragonoid76 Can you say more about this? Exarchus (talk) 12:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Select your language as Sanskrit. Jeaucques Quœure (talk) 12:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then I'm inclined to think this is some Neo-Sanskrit verb form (on the model of दोग्धि (dogdhi)). That's also interesting, I hope Dragonoid can tell more about this.
- Future verbs in any case don't count for the present stem. An imperfect form would, but are you sure it isn't an aorist? Exarchus (talk) 12:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose मोग्धि (mogdhi) from मुह् (muh) is then a similar case. Exarchus (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. This verb is mentioned in Monier-Williams under the root उह् (uh), but indicated with 'L.' (= lexicographers). This doesn't pass Wiktionary's attestation criteria. The etymology looks dubious. @Jeaucques Quœure Exarchus (talk) 11:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I can't find this word in any dictionary. — This unsigned comment was added by Rakso43243 (talk • contribs).
Sanskrit. Supposed class 2 verb of मुह् (muh). If it exists, then only in Neo-Sanskrit is my guess. Not to be confused with aorist imperative of मुच् (muc) (in Baudhāyanadharmasūtra). Exarchus (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English.
Vietnamese. A calque from English with an unusual structure. I doubt if anyone uses it. Duchuyfootball (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. The root स्वर्द् (svard) is mentioned in Monier-Williams, but is apparently not attested. Exarchus (talk) 06:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Mentioned in Monier-Williams for a root विद् (vid) meaning "to consider as, take for". Apparently used in Bhaṭṭikāvya, a poem intended to give examples of Pāṇini's grammar. Would that count as a valid enough attestation? Exarchus (talk) 08:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
पिङ्क्ते
[edit]Sanskrit. Mentioned in MW, not attested. Mayrhofer says about the supposed root पिञ्ज् (piñj): "ist wohl nur Konstruktion" (under lemma piṅgalá-). Exarchus (talk) 10:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Rfv-sense: the Holland region. The two provinces it is comprised of do seem to be called Bắc Hà Lan and Nam Hà Lan, but I cannot find anyone using just Hà Lan to refer to the entire region. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 04:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is listed all over the internet as the longest word in Dutch, but there is no way this exists. I can't even find voorberedingswerkzaamhedenplan, which isn't surprising, because it's a nonsensical term. Who needs a plan for their preparations? Isn't that what preparations are for? —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Лланвайрпуллґвінґіллґоґерихвирндробуллллантісіліоґоґоґох
[edit]Ukrainian. Currently given as a translation at Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. Theknightwho (talk) 17:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Ultimateria (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Some Welsh terms
[edit]Nowhere to be found on Google or Google Books. Likely novel coinage by editor. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Welsh does not currently have this word, similar to how "hunlun" (selfie) didn't exist until fairly recently. The etymology is explained within the article, similar to how "covenstead" comprises of "coven" and "stead". Xxglennxx (talk) 21:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Welsh does not currently have this word", i.e. it's a protologism and fails WT:CFI. --20:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Welsh is a LDL and not a WDL, but there are still some CFI to be meet, see also WT:About Welsh#Sources. As no source (neither a use nor a mention) was provided, it's: RFV-failed. --2003:DE:3700:A03A:F0C0:1D35:C808:AFCA 05:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Likely coinage by editor. Appears nowhere on Google or Google Books. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Similar to my comment about "cwfenfa" above. The etymology is explained within the article. Xxglennxx (talk) 21:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
No hits on Google or Google Books. Likely coinage by page creator. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Similar to my comment about "cwfenfa" above. The etymology is explained within the article. Xxglennxx (talk) 21:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Attestable, but the plural is nowhere to be found on Google or Google Books (besides Wikipedia, which does not count, per WT:ATTEST). ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Similar to my comment about "cwfenfa" above. The etymology is explained within the article. The plural with -oedd can be see here and here, so I'll add that to the article. Xxglennxx (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Page creator also added several potentially unatestable Welsh terms. I cannot find this in Welsh-language texts on either Google or Google Books. The only one I've found is Welsh Wikipedia, which does not count per WT:ATTEST. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Welsh. Rfv-sense "clique that shares common interests or activities". Plausible as a transferred sense from English coven, but we'd need to see some actual use. Theknightwho (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi! This link from the BBC talks about a book, Y Cylch by Gareth Evans-Jones:
- ”Nofel gyfoes sy'n ein dwyn i ganol bywyd goruwchnaturiol cwfen o wrachod ym Mangor”
- “A contemporary novel that takes us to the centre-point of a coven of witches’ supernatural life in Bangor” Xxglennxx (talk) 18:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Xxglennxx Isn't that just sense 1 ("formal group or assembly of witches")? Theknightwho (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho It is. It’s also an example of use as requested. Xxglennxx (talk) 21:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Xxglennxx Sure, that's fine - the issue is whether the second sense can be verified as well. Theknightwho (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho Hmm, yes, I see what you mean. I can't find anything that supports the definition for the second sense, so maybe it'd be better to delete that entry. Xxglennxx (talk) 20:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Xxglennxx Sure, that's fine - the issue is whether the second sense can be verified as well. Theknightwho (talk) 21:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho It is. It’s also an example of use as requested. Xxglennxx (talk) 21:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Xxglennxx Isn't that just sense 1 ("formal group or assembly of witches")? Theknightwho (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Created and tagged by @Nguyên Hưng Trần for some reason. Googling for stuff like “tao dell thích” and “tao dell biết” shows this is in common use. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
If nobody objects that this is in common use, this is RfV kept. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese, tagged with reason, “Seems to be added by a user who has trouble telling apart Sino-Vietnamese readings of Chinese characters, and actual Vietnamese. Not a normal noun at all in Vietnamese, but usages in traditional medicine contexts can be considered.” In my opinion this should be converted to {{sino-vietnamese reading of}}. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I converted it. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
German. Rfv-sense: (slang, term of address) neo-nazi, right-wing extremist
Never heard of this before, not in the usual dictionaries and a quick Google search didn't turn up much either. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 17:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think there's enough proof in the fact that they themselves call their groups "Freie Kameradschaften", as well as referring to each other by the term in prison. Eilidhmax (talk) 21:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's from the sense comrade (fellow, companion). --01:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC) — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:de:3700:a0e7:955d:2988:8b5e:44e1 (talk).
- Nazis calling each other "friend" does obviously not attest a sense of "Nazi" for "friend". — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
September 2024
[edit]Lashi. This seems to only be true for one specific Bible translation that is probably not even accepted by the speakers. Hardly something to make an entry for. Thadh (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. Rfv-sense: To die in a video game. Wikiuser815 (talk) 15:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this is just gaming slang. It's at the very least used as a euphemism by e.g. war veterans when speaking of their brothers that 'never came back' (cf. jäädä sille tielleen). — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Mentioned by Monier-Williams, but the relevant (Vedic) forms are currently interpreted to be from the root aorist (also given as such by Whitney already). See for example LIV p.316. At DCS, yoja is given as present imperative, but the attestations are simply repetitions of the mantra from Rigveda I, 82, which is given by DCS as aorist yojā further on. Exarchus (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Old Prussian
[edit]en.WP gave it as Perkunis; Nesselmann only has percunis (“thunder”). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Not in Nesselmann; possibly Neo-Prussian conlang (en.WP/de.WP). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
(Tagged long ago, doesn't seem to be listed here, cp. also Category:Requests for verification in Old Prussian entries.) --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
@Beobach972. Nesselmann: "daian acc. sg., daians acc. pl.". --18:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
--18:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
--18:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Nesselmann has jous (jaus, yous, joes). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Withdrawn (because of [153] & src text). RFV-resolved. --13:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Nesselmann has "tan-s" (i.e. tans). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Withdrawn (because of [154] & src text). RFV-resolved. --13:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Rfv-sense; not in Nesselmann. --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Long enough unattested; RFV-failed. --20:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Rfv-sense; Nesselmann has wyr-s, wir-s (i.e. wyrs, wirs) (“male man, male adult human being”). y isn't correct (also not ÿ, but ij or maybe ij), but that's unrelated to the sense(s). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Long enough unattested; RFV-failed. --20:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
@JimiYoru. Rfv-sense; Nesselmann has ackewystin (acc.) (“public”) and ackywistu, akiwysti (adv.) (“public”). --10:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Long enough unattested; RFV-failed. --20:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- I browsed through Nesselmann's dictionary, and as much as he does mention certain sources he allegedly based the entries on, these references appear to be incorrect, eg. pointing at pages in Enchiridion that do not mention the specific word. The spellings/forms in my Old Prussian entries are based to a significant extent on the most reliable source – The Third Catechism, aka Enchiridion, as the facsimiles are available online. Basically, I'm following the rule of ad fontes. I question the verity of Nesselmann's forms. JimiY☽ru 06:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- Fair point for ioūs and tāns (like it also is for the spelling of ackijwistu and wijrs), hence these two RFVs withdrawn. --13:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Scottish Gaelic. Added back in 2013. Mark (2003) and LearnGaelic state that the only term is beithe (with a final -e). Dwelly has one hit for the form without an -e, but are we sure it's an actual alternative form and not a misspelling? @Mahagaja, SaoiDunNeachdain, who could give some insight into this. Thadh (talk) 00:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Am Faclair Beag lists beithe as the simple form, but uses beith in compounds, including:
- so at the very least it could be called a combining form. Variation between beith and beithe in this word seems to go back at least as far as Middle Irish [155], so it's not hard to imagine there may be dialects of Scottish Gaelic (perhaps the moribund or extinct ones closest to Ireland) where beith is used in isolation, though I can't prove that. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- All right, if we won't find any evidence for an isolated use, I'll convert the entry to a combining form. Thadh (talk) 12:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. Rfv-sense: "in the card deck, cards lying in a wrong direction". Added by @Höyhens. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 16:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Assyrian Neo-Aramaic: nine (9)
. Tagged for deletion by @Antonklroberts for being unattested, but it needs to go through RFV. Theknightwho (talk) 00:19, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- (Notifying ColumbaBush, ܐܢܐ, Antonklroberts, Shuraya): — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 01:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- yes we can delete since ܬܫܥܐ#Assyrian_Neo-Aramaic is what's commonly used ColumbaBush (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, this should be deleted in favor of ܬܫܥܐ ܐܢܐ (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Arabic. Unattested. Created by @Fixmaster. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 03:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Arabic. Unattested. Created by @Fixmaster. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 03:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seems unattestable. No hits in Google books-search, two hits outside Wiki world, both of low quality. I'd say delete. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. Added by @Vuo. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 04:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I added some old newspaper quotes for punankarvainen. It's also in an old Return of the King translation, but it could be misleading to include that one since it might be archaicizing Wikiuser815 (talk) 14:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK, punankarvainen passes. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 08:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Sundanese. Term was added back in 2007. Unattested, as far as I know. The closest one would be the Dutch-derived 'Augustus', as attested here (1930).
- Udaradingin (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Yiddish. I don't doubt that colloquially it might be used, a la ביטע (bite), but I went through two dictionaries and couldn't find it. If anyone finds it in the CYED or CEYD, then we should be good. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 20:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- [156]. Yiddish is LDL. Thadh (talk) 20:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Kyrgyz. factory farm
. Not seeing many hits. Theknightwho (talk) 23:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
SOP, together with zamykać na klucz. Leifturstríð (talk) 00:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Does not exist, forms like 'rihanti' are from the root present. Exarchus (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Sense: Synonym of ngừng (“to stop; to halt”). MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English.
Komi-Permyak. Seems to be based on an entry from Wichmann's Syrjänischer Wortschatz ("Zyrian vocabulary"), where it is written in UPA as ɸuń or ɸuńgag (which doesn't even correspond to the form, should have a palatal -нь-), is of questionable validity (considering the phonology, is more likely to be a one-time mispronunciation or something; it even gives the alternative form dɸuńgag, which might suggest some kind of друнь(гаг) instead). Can't find it in any modern sources, or even just any other sources at all. Thadh (talk) 07:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. "bottled ... blood". These are purely theoretical; I have not created these before for that exact reason. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose, with — for example — a Google search you can find numerous examples of use for the medical sense; in a smaller scale for the “gastronomic” one, also. --2001:999:704:4FE5:DBEC:FF1A:D7F1:A94 17:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Most results are for etym 1. "pulloveren" is almost all not in Finnish. "pulloverta" gets perhaps one source that meets WT:CFI. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Here's a link to a master's thesis in which the word pulloveri in the sense 'bottled blood' appears multiple times: [157]. Unfortunately the text is too technical for me to translate it into English. --Hekaheka (talk) 11:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- Most results are for etym 1. "pulloveren" is almost all not in Finnish. "pulloverta" gets perhaps one source that meets WT:CFI. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
I couldn't find this word in any dictionary. Tekstaro de Esperanto one of the biggest corpus of esperanto also doesn't have this word. — This unsigned comment was added by Rakso43243 (talk • contribs).
Karelian. Thadh (talk) 18:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. The attested forms are to be regarded as subjunctive of the root aorist (see अकर् (akar)), also करन्ति (karanti), given as present by Whitney because -nti wasn't recognised as a subjunctive 3pl ending back then. Exarchus (talk) 13:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Esperanto.
— This unsigned comment was added by Rakso43243 (talk • contribs) at 06:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC).
Sanskrit. Does not exist, forms like 'bhójate' are again to be interpreted as aorist subjunctive. Exarchus (talk) 09:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Rfv for 'Etymology 2', sense "to save". I can't find this in Steingass or Hayyim, and Dehkhoda seems to indicate it as Pahlavi ("پهلوی"). By the way, I'm not sure what the Middle Persian pronunciation should be, MacKenzie gives /bōxtan/. The etymology section apparently uses Avestan script for Middle Persian... Exarchus (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that this entry was first added by the now-blocked user Irman, whose talk page is filled with various instances of his fabrications and mistakes. The fa-regional template is also clearly incorrect, with the Tajik spelling бахтен (baxten) being obviously wrong (it would be spelled بختین in the Arabic script, being a totally different word and contrary to the norms of Persian infinitive forms). Samiollah1357 (talk) 08:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
October 2024
[edit]Icelandic. Highly suspicious, as Icelandic is normally highly puristic and this word does not seem to exist as a learned borrowing in any other language. --2A02:FE1:9293:F00:903E:CB02:58A2:F859 13:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
- Does exist (newspaper: [158], 144 hits for "dormaði" in print publications) but it's not common nowadays. According to Íslensk orðsifjabók it's seemingly Germanic in origin rather than a learned borrowing, although perhaps influenced by Latin. 130.208.182.103 16:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- A Germanic cognate may be provided by Middle High German türmen (“to become dizzy”), which the Brothers Grimm[1] connect with dialectal Northern English dorm (“to be half asleep”); dialectal Swedish dorma (“to be half asleep”); Norwegian durma, dorma (“to doze”); Icelandic dorma itself; Norn dwarm (“to doze”) [at least, I assume the abbreviation schetl. = schetländisch refers to Norn, though it could also refer to the Shetland dialect of Scots]; Faroese durva (“to doze off, try to stay awake”). Hungarian durmol (“to nap, snooze”) is apparently a Germanic loanword. Pokorny[2] connects türmen more distantly with Norwegian dusa (“doze”), Old Norse dúsa (“keep still”), dús (“lull (in wind), dead calm”), dúra (“sleep”). Our entry for Proto-Germanic *dusāną covers some of these. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
- References
- ^ türmen
- ^ Pokorny, Julius (1959) “dheu̯es-, dhu̯ē̆s-, dheus-, dhū̆s-”, in Indogermanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch [Indo-European Etymological Dictionary] (in German), volume 1, Bern, München: Francke Verlag, pages 268-271
Thai. Rationale: "This word does not exist in Thai. It is a transliteration of "the" in English." Ultimateria (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
- (Similar to Japanese ザ? —Fish bowl (talk) 22:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC))
Comox. Rationale: "Comox does not appear to have case in this alphabet." Ultimateria (talk) 19:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Quechua: I can't find it in any dictionary as a legitimate use for "to bury". SantiChau23 (talk) 20:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Hindi. Looks like a dictionary-only word, not able to find enough usages in Google Books. --Svartava (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Persian. The entry for نوک (nvak) appears to at least have an incorrect latinisation and vocalisation, given that Persian does not have any initial consonant clusters. Additionally, having checked a number of dictionaries and resources, I cannot find "wife of one's husband's brother" as a definition of any term with this spelling. For example, see Dehkhoda Dictionary, New Persian–English dictionary, and Vazhaju. Samiollah1357 (talk) 06:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
Old High German. Just the headword form krig. The only place I can find this is [here] (along with kriag). If it does exist, is it prevalent enough to be used as the main entry ? Leasnam (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
German. Special:WhatLinksHere/-esisch is empty and Category:German terms suffixed with -esisch doesn't exist, possibly for good reasons. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:de:3700:a0c9:b024:34b7:bcda:4c60 (talk) at 17:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC).
- I'm not sure how to verify the existence of a suffix. I think this should probably go to WT:RFD instead. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Possibilities as for attestion:
- Providing sources (grammars, dictionaries) which give -esisch as suffix. But well, that alone isn't really sufficient.
- Providing derived terms. But many terms ending in esisch are better explained as (term + -ese) + isch, e.g. taiwanesisch (synonym: taiwanisch) as Taiwanese (Taiwan + -ese) + -isch. That's similar to how Biologin isn't bio- + -login but Biologe (Biolog) + -in. --07:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Possibilities as for attestion:
Old Prussian. Reference: "Pruska n. *Stabegude złożona, por. prus. stabis 'kamień', lit. stabas 'posąg', łot. stabs i prus. gudde 'krzaki, krzewy'." (notice the *). --07:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Saterland Frisian. Not in SW, not in NT, can't find it anywhere except the wiki world. Thadh (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- seeltersk.de, mentioning P. (= Pyt) Kramer. But well, the original source could already be gone and then wasn't durably archived (WT:CFI)... --14:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting, because the mirrored book seems to contain oubieldje (with a hgih /iː/) instead, which also seems to correspond to SW's basic verb bíeldje. But it doesn't seem to be a typo, since it appears three times in the first source; Mistake or alternative form? Thadh (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Such variant spellings are IMO a predictable effect of the lack of a standardized orthography. --Lambiam 19:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting, because the mirrored book seems to contain oubieldje (with a hgih /iː/) instead, which also seems to correspond to SW's basic verb bíeldje. But it doesn't seem to be a typo, since it appears three times in the first source; Mistake or alternative form? Thadh (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Czech. Maybe a bit more technical - I believe a note ("nota") is a symbol for a tone ("tón"), not the tone itself. For example "nota C" should mean "the C note" as in "the notational symbol for the C tone". Does this vary across different languages? CaptainPermaban (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be curious what various Czech sources say. However, even if that sense is missing in those sources, that doesn't mean that it's not a real sense of the word. Ideally checking Google Books etc. should be done. Vininn126 (talk) 19:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- I can find relevant phrases in sources, but it's difficult to discern the meaning. Is "playing a note" the same as "playing a tone"? I guess people often use it interchangeably, but I am not sure whether it's enough to warrant treating the words as synonymous. CaptainPermaban (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- You might want to compare English note. Vininn126 (talk) 20:56, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- I can find relevant phrases in sources, but it's difficult to discern the meaning. Is "playing a note" the same as "playing a tone"? I guess people often use it interchangeably, but I am not sure whether it's enough to warrant treating the words as synonymous. CaptainPermaban (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Historically and etymologically, the term note in its musical sense referred to a mark representing a tone on a musical scale. Obviously, it can also be used metonymically to refer to that tone. The terms are not just synonyms; the expression to read notes cannot be replaced by to read tones; the metonymy is one-way. When we read, “
her high notes were off pitch
”,[159] it clearly refers to the tones. How would this be said in Czech? The equivalent of “the tones she sang for the high notes were off pitch”? --Lambiam 19:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)- Replying to myself, some Googling shows that in this context of tones being off Czech systematically uses tóny and not noty, supporting the claim. --Lambiam 19:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. The only way this might exist is as Neo-Sanskrit. Exarchus (talk) 19:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Nivkh. @kwamikagami I'm not sure where you got these.
cc @dylanvt, kaarkemhveel
-saph668 (user—talk—contribs) 10:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- There's enough bilingualism and consequent borrowing that they can show up a lot when Russian words are used. Gashilova 2017 does include them in its alphabet on page 6, as the 11th and 37th letters. Dylanvt (talk) 10:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- Huh. Do they give some equivalency? Also, should probably be added to the entries -saph668 (user—talk—contribs) 10:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- by equivalency do you mean like nativized forms? If so, there's nothing systematic in that regard. Gashilova 2017 just has a page at the beginning of the dictionary showing the alphabet, along with the note "the letters ж, ц, ш, щ are used in loanwords from Russian". Dylanvt (talk) 14:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- since they're only used in loans, I'm not sure they're needed. this is one of the problems with wording letters as 'nth letter of the X alphabet' [not my preferred wording], when there may be variants of the alphabet with and without letters for loans. kwami (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
- Huh. Do they give some equivalency? Also, should probably be added to the entries -saph668 (user—talk—contribs) 10:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "(transitive) to speak, to say (especially in the southern part of the Netherlands)". Removed by IP. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 14:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Seems to be taken from Taaldacht's Vergeten woorden, which is a dictionary of mostly Anglish-style conlangery (although it contains some legitimate archaisms). — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. As above. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. As above. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. As above. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Javindo. Entries with dubious (and at some points definitely wrong) etymologies, created without sources seemingly to support a highly unlikely set of descendants. (I have a feeling I know who the editor is, and if so, it shouldn't take too long for them to expose themselves.) — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 23:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Cornish. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Russian. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- Cited, @Mahagaja. Two tracks on all platforms and one post from a shit forum just for illustration, but in the course of a year there will appear new trap songs containing it, in fact there presumably are untranscribed ones that contain it without us finding it. This was just 2024 innit, the year hasn’t even ended. Fay Freak (talk) 11:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Mentioned by Pāṇini but not attested. It's actually not fully clear to me whether this is considered sufficient to pass the inclusion criteria for extinct languages (the guidelines speak about "entries based on a single mention"). Exarchus (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Hindi. Rfv for adjective sense. --Svartava (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
Komi-Permyak. The actual form seems to be вийны (vijny). Thadh (talk) 12:16, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Finnish; does not seem to actually be in use (it is either sulkeuma or the English term is code-switched). @Brittletheories as creator. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
- klosuuri itself gets at least three durably archived cites (two theses,[160][161] two Usenet posts[162][163]), but it's used in a different sense every time. Always like English closure. Something like "(rare) closure (various senses)" could maybe be kept. It is in dictionaries after all. Wikiuser815 (talk) 15:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- The word is in the cited sense in the Glossary of Programming Terms of Aalto University[164]. The term is also in the encyclopedia Otavan Iso Tietosanakirja from 1960s. There the definition is essentially the same as in sense #11 of "closure": '(politics) A method of ending a parliamentary debate and securing an immediate vote upon a measure before a legislative body.' --Hekaheka (talk) 20:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. I'd like to know where this is attested, I suppose simply a modern use of the name somewhere. Exarchus (talk) 21:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Kapampangan. Malformed and confusing entries added by an IP, but also entirely plausible. Are they real or not? This, that and the other (talk) 11:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit - no results in Google Books. – Svārtava (tɕ) 14:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Allegedly an Aramaic name of the town Bethlehem, but no sources are given. The article author mentions in a Facebook post that he has "reconstructed" the form himself. Only hits on Google seem to be this page (and a Wikipedia page where he has also inserted this term). —Pinnerup (talk) 23:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Then there's the matter of the definite article suffix "א". I wonder why we have Aramaic לחמא lemmatized at that spelling. I've just looked at a number of Aramaic targums for the Hebrew scriptures, as well as the Samaritan Pentateuch, and they all have it without the "א". As for "reconstructing" it, there are lots and lots of Aramaic or Syriac versions of biblical texts, including the Christian New Testament, not to mention Aramaic texts about religious matters that refer to the town of Bethlehem- no need to guess or reconstruct. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Used by teenagers in social medias like in "mlem mlem". – Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk) 01:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- Come on, this is in super-common use. Why are you requesting verification? MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, my fault, sorry! I thought it wasn't used in the internet (well, I rarely google words like these in social medias) so I requested. – Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
German. Rfv-senses, see entry. --2003:DE:371A:2285:BC8F:3FF1:BC08:3156 12:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
November 2024
[edit]Vietnamese. Nominated together with A Bố Cáp Tư, but this is probably attestable. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Vietnamese. Nominated together with A Bố Cáp Tư, but this might just be attestable. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Not in any dictionaries in Abadis.--Saranamd (talk) 09:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- In
{{R:fa:Steingass}}with a different definition that could conceivably evolve over a century to mean "fall down, collapse": "ریستن, restan, rīstan, To spin, to twist." Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
Finnish. Rfv-sense: "(intransitive) to come to grief". Probably a mistranslation. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 19:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
The Vedic forms like 'gámanti' are to be interpreted as from the aorist अगन् (ágan), see for example Mayrhofer. But I don't exclude it has been used as a present somewhere in later Sanskrit. Exarchus (talk) 11:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
German. Rfv-sense: Flemish (a group of Flemish dialects). Added by @Hans-Friedrich Tamke in diff; removed by Sarcelles in diff and by Surjection in diff without correct process, i.e. without a verification or deletion request.
Here are already some examples (post 1950) – are they sufficient?
- 1961, Karl Meisen, Altdeutsche Grammatik: I: Lautlehre, J. B. Metzlerische Verlagsbuchhandlung: Stuttgart, p. 11 ([165]):
- Auf nd. Boden wird das Anfr. abgelöst durch das Mittelniederländische (Mnl.) vom 13.Jh. bis etwa 1500 (Hauptdialekte sind seitdem Holländisch, Flämisch, Brabantisch, Limburgisch), [...]
- Jan Goossens, Niederländische Mundarten – vom Deutschen aus gesehen (mit 11 Karten im Text und einer Faltkarte); in: 1970, Jan Goossens (ed.), Niederdeutsches Wort: Kleine Beiträge zur niederdeutschen Mundart- und Namenkunde, vol. 10, Verlag Aschendorff: Münster, p. 67 and p. 78f.:
- Die ganze östliche Hälfte des ndl. Sprachgebiets nun hat Umlaut; nur das Flämische, das Seeländische und das Holländische kennen ihn nicht.
- Im Gegensatz zu den östlichen Mundarten haben die westlichen, das Flämische, das Brabantische und auch das Holländische, wesentliehen Anteil am Aufbau der ndl. Hochsprache gehabt.
- 2003, Georg Cornelissen, Kleine niederrheinische Sprachgeschichte (1300–1900): Eine regionale Sprachgeschichte für das deutsch-niederländische Grenzgebiet zwischen Arnheim und Krefeld: Met een Nederlandstalige inleiding, p. 11 ([166]):
- Im Mittelalter gab es allerdings noch keine Einheitsschriftsprache moderner Prägung, so dass der Begriff Mittelniederländisch – wie auch Mittelhochdeutsch – lediglich als Sammelbegriff zu verstehen ist: er ermöglicht die Zusammenfassung verschiedener regionaler Schreibsprachen. Das Flämische, Brabantische oder Holländische gehören hierher und auch die mittelalterliche Sprache des Raumes Arnheim-Kleve-Venlo-Krefeld – das „Niederrheinische“, wie es in diesem Buch heißt.
- 2004, Jeroen Van Pottelberge, Der am-Progressiv: Struktur und parallele Entwicklung in den kontinentalwestgermanischen Sprachen, Gunter Narr Verlag: Tübingen, p. 157 ([167]):
- Der Terminus „südniederländisch“ ist in erster Linie dialektgeographisch oder dialekthistorisch motiviert, weil sich die südlichen Mundartgebiete (das Flämische, das Brabantische und das Limburgische) auf beiden Seiten der Staatsgrenze erstrecken und sich historisch zuerst vom Latein und Französischen emanzipiert haben.
- Anne Begenat-Neuschäfer; in: 2009, Anne Begenat-Neuschäfer (ed.), Belgien im Fokus: Geschichte – Sprachen – Kulturen: 2: Comic und Jugendliteratur in Belgien von ihren Anfängen bis heute, Peter Lang: Frankfurt am Main, p. XVI ([168]):
- Auf der einen Seite stand das Französische als Kultursprache mit seinem Anspruch auf Universalität, auf der anderen galten die großen niederdeutschen Dialekte des Flämischen, Brabantischen, und Limburgischen, welche die Sprachunion mit dem Niederländischen als Schriftsprache in der ersten Hälfte des 19. Jahrhunderts noch nicht vollzogen hatten.
--2003:DE:3723:A697:1C3D:520:841B:4E6B 19:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- For context, this editor, who is evading their block, is very likely a perennial POV pusher who cannot be at all trusted to define these terms correctly. Someone else has summed up their goal as "introducing obsolete concepts into articles to aggrandize (Low) German and diminish Dutch". — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 20:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- This is a linguistic minefield. The meaning of the word “Flemish” is highly ambiguous (as is its Dutch equivalent “Vlaams”), and so should not be used as is in definitions. There are currently two senses, neither of which makes sense to me. The citations given by the “PoV pusher” seems to support a sense “the non-standardized dialects of only the former County of Flanders, i.e. the current provinces of West Flanders and East Flanders, Zeelandic Flanders and French Flanders” (copy-pasting from Wikipedia), and so could stay in as far as I’m concerned, provided the definition be cleaned up. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 02:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding, they are correct: Flämisch denotes both the standard language and the non-standard varieties of Flanders. In my view the quotations also clearly demonstrate this. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 00:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- The quotations given demonstrate a sense “dialects of only the former County of Flanders”, which is quite different from the “non-standard varieties of [current] Flanders”. That’d be a third sense. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Kazakh.
Tagged for speedy deletion by @Vtgnoq7238rmqco as not Kazakh. Granted, there are lots of "false friends" in various Arabic script Unicode blocks, but this should go through at least a minimal verification so it's not just one person's opinion. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Hunsrik
[edit]Unsourced. Trooper57 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Australie in Boll's dictionary. Trooper57 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Not in Boll's dictionary, despite citing it. In fact, none of the colours listed at {{table:colors/hrx}} are in this dictionary. It only has entries for the adjectives. Trooper57 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Unsourced. Trooper57 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Dutch. Rfv-sense: "literature". Afaik this just means "literary studies", which makes sense given the suffix -kunde. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Translingual. Rfv-sense: "(mathematics) 3π". — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 07:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Rfv-sense: (vexillology) fly. I've checked all sources that I'm aware of. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
- This meaning is included in the major dictionary of Icelandic ("Íslensk orðabók", given as "fánareitur fjær stönginni") but not in any other work that I can find. Presumably an obsolete neologism or nonce word. 130.208.182.103 14:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't have access to Íslensk orðabók unfortunately. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 00:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Sanskrit. Not mentioned in Monier-Williams, Apte or Macdonell. Exarchus (talk) 17:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Polish. Only "quote" is from miejski.pl, Polish urban dictionary, which is not providing a real quote from usage, but rather an example of how the word COULD be spelled. Vininn126 (talk) 22:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Malay. Rationale was "same pattern as from Duhose". Ultimateria (talk) 19:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Afrikaans, sense "shepherd", removed out of process by IP. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 20:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Swahili. Rfv-sense: gift, donation (something given to another voluntarily, without charge). MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 03:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Swahili. Rfv-sense: to debate. Was added by @Science Bird. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Rationale was "ungrammatical and unattested in publications". Ultimateria (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic, meaning "telephone". Possible mistake for sími. Added 8 years ago by an IP. Benwing2 (talk) 07:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this entry is erroneous and is meant to be sími. 130.208.182.103 12:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Failed RFV. Benwing2 (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Supposedly "High Icelandic" for "atom". Created by User:Ovey 56, who has added several questionable Icelandic entries. Not in any dictionary that I can find, and the declension seems wrong (e.g. no u-mutation in the plural). Benwing2 (talk) 10:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- This entry should be deleted. "High Icelandic", while an admirable effort, just constists of some suggestions from a single individual and I'm not aware of any words from it that ended up making it into the lexicon. The full list of High Icelandic can be found here, none of them are fit for inclusion in Wiktionary 130.208.182.103 12:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Russian. Spread around the web when corpora where unimpressing. Fay Freak (talk) 17:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
German. Misspelling of abmessen.
@Alextejthompson
It's certainly misspelled but I don't think this is nearly common enough to warrant inclusion. Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion § Misspellings — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. This and all related terms added by User:Ovey 56:
- njandevaskur "related to the (Guarani) Yandevan people"
- njandevaskgvaraní (etc.)
- njandevaskgvaraníska (etc.)
- njandevaskgvaranískur (etc.)
- njandevasktgvaraní (etc.)
- njandevasktgvaraníska (etc.)
- njandevasktgvaranískur (etc.)
All these terms supposedly refer to the Guarani Yandevan people. We need citations for each of these, to prove they aren't protologisms invented by the above user. Benwing2 (talk) 07:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Persian. Not in dictionaries.--Saranamd (talk) 07:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. "Easter peace". Dates to 2008 but there's only one example in the RMH-2022 corpus: [169]
If we can't find 3 citations, we should delete it. Benwing2 (talk) 09:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- Cited, used in Heimskringla which is discussed here. Here are also 5 examples of figurative usage. 130.208.182.103 10:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- OK great, I will take this as cited. Benwing2 (talk) 11:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
apparently non-existent terms on reconstruction pages
[edit]Terms that I wasn't able to verify:
- Old High German pīna at Proto-West Germanic *pīnā
- Middle Persian 𐫅𐫡𐫏𐫄 (dryɣ /darīğ/, “sorrow, suffering”) + Parthian 𐫅𐫡𐫏𐫃 (dryg /darīg/, “sorrow, suffering”) at Proto-Iranian *járati
Exarchus (talk) 10:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- To be clear: I mean OHG pīna in the tree sense. Exarchus (talk) 11:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Apparent misspelling of vínhöndlari, but the latter seems not to be attestable. Benwing2 (talk) 08:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Seemingly attested in one 18th century word list [170], but no examples that I can find 130.208.182.103 09:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Created by User:Hvergi, said to mean "tits" in a vulgar sense. Not in any dictionary I can find and I looked in the corpus [171] and the few hits from Twitter seem to refer to tournaments of some sort, not to women's breasts. Benwing2 (talk) 08:40, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Are these citable?
- [172] "Gugga er þrítug gella með sögu um sílíkon í brullunum" (YouTube video, timestamp 15:30)
- [173] "Ég held að karlmennirnir sem syntu á móti mér hafi átt afar skemmtilega sundferð þar sem brullurnar sátu úti eins og ekkert væri sjálfsagðara" (blog post)
- [174] "eða bara brullur, hvernig væri það?" (forum post)
- [175] "Brullurnar á þér eru að gera útaf við þig" (forum post)
- [176] "Noh, litla til hægri með glænýjar brullur!" (in a collapsed forum post by user YulBrynner) 130.208.182.103 09:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Great, thank you! All look to be plural; I wonder if you can cite any of them singular, if not maybe I should make it a plural-only word. Can you explain what things like this mean?
- "Voru brullur í stúkunni eftir leik ?" These are from [177]. Benwing2 (talk) 11:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- It probably only exists in the plural, but there's nothing ungrammatical about a singular as such, similar to the equally vulgar English bazonga.
- All of the results from the RMH corpus are a slang shortening for brauðstangir (“breadsticks”), per [178][179] ("Voru brullur í stúkunni eftir leik?" is odd but the only way I can parse it is "Did you eat some breadsticks in the bleachers after the game?") 130.208.182.103 11:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Created by User:BiT. Appears to be an Old Norse skaldic word appearing once. Need actual Icelandic cites. Benwing2 (talk) 11:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Icelandic. Just like the last one, this is an Old Norse skaldic word apparently attested once meaning "a shower of arrows". Created by User:BiT. Benwing2 (talk) 11:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Hawaiian.
This is said to be borrowed from an English cosmological term which was coined last year from a phrase in an old Hawaiian chant. Yes, this originally came from Hawaiian, but are Hawaiians using it as Hawaiian as opposed to just talking about the English term? Chuck Entz (talk) 02:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC)