Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup add new request \| history \| archives Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.	Requests for verification English add new request \| history CJK add new request \| history Italic add new request \| history Non-English (all other languages) add new request \| history Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.	Requests for deletion English add new request \| history CJK add new request \| history Italic add new request \| history Reconstruction add new request \| history Non-English (all other languages) add new request \| history Requests for deletion of pages in the main and Reconstruction namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.	Requests for deletion/Others add new request \| history Requests for deletion and undeletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.
Requests for moves, mergers and splits add new request \| history \| archives Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.			Language treatment requests add new request \| history Requests for changes to Wiktionary's language treatment practices, including renames, merges and splits.
{{attention}} • {{rfap}} • {{rfdate}} • {{rfquote}} • {{rfdef}} • {{rfeq}} • {{rfe}} • {{rfex}} • {{rfi}} • {{rfp}}

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

Shortcut:
WT:RFDCJK

This page is for entries in Chinese, Japanese, Korean or any other language using an East Asian script. For English entries, see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/English. For entries in other non-English languages, see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English.

Scope of this request page:

In-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “green leaf”
Out-of-scope: terms whose existence is in doubt

Templates:

{{rfd}}
{{rfd-sense}}
{{rfd-redundant}}
{{archive-top|rfd}} + {{archive-bottom}}

July 2019

鎖具足#Japanese

Latest comment: 3 years ago15 comments2 people in discussion

Term added by Mare-Silverus (talk • contribs), who either is, or is somehow related to, our long-term UK anon who adds lots of problematic Japanese terms.

I think this is SOP, as simply 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 具足 (gusoku, “armor”), but I'd like to get input from others. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps we should create 具足 before deleting this. Also, is the usual English term not chain mail? --Lambiam 07:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Japanese 具足 created. This is an old term cited first all the way back to 722, but despite its age and Chinese-derived reading, I can't find evidence of a borrowing from Middle Chinese. My resources for Chinese are limited, so I'd appreciate it if any more-Chinese-savvy editors could have a look at the etymology.

Re: English chain mail, @Lambiam, were you commenting on the use of alt spelling chainmail at the 鎖具足#Japanese entry? If instead you were suggesting non-SOP-ness on the basis of the English term mail not corresponding exactly to 具足 (gusoku, “armor”), I would counter by suggesting that someone fluent in English would understand that mail in the context of the armaments of centuries past is broadly equivalent to armor on the one hand, and on the other, that someone fluent in Japanese and familiar with the same contexts would choose the term 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) instead, as indeed we see at the JA WP article ja:w:鎖帷子. In terms of raw Google hits (granted, only a very rough measure, but still), google:"鎖帷子" "は" (adding the "は" to filter for Japanese) gets us 4.8M hits, while google:"鎖具足" "は" gets only 4.3K. At best, this would be an uncommon synonym, but I argue that it's not an integral enough term to even warrant an entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr— I was commenting on the senses listed for 鎖 (kusari), which do not include any of the synonyms “mail”, “chain mail” or ”chainmail”. In English, just “chain” does not have the sense of “chain mail”; for someone not familiar with the meaning (and possibly also not with medieval armour), trying to figure it out from the literal translation 鎖+具足 = “chain”+“armour” might not work too well. I do not know if 鎖 by itself can have the sense of “mail”, or that this requires the combination 鎖具足. If the former, that sense should be added. If the latter, I am not convinced we have an SOP here. --Lambiam 01:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam, I'm curious about your reasoning. You state, "the senses listed for 鎖 (kusari), which do not include any of the synonyms “mail”, “chain mail” or ”chainmail”" -- no, they do not. For that matter, neither does English chain?

Japanese 鎖 (kusari) generally just means chain. Indeed, so far as I know, any "armor" sense for English chain on its own only comes about from use of this term as a shortening of chain mail, so I'm a bit confused why you think Japanese 鎖 (kusari) needs to have some kind of "armor" sense for Japanese 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) to not be an SOP? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr— My reasoning is very simplistic. If I see that the meaning of compound noun X+Y, where X modifies Y, is rendered in English as A+B, then I expect that one of the meanings of X is A and one of the meanings of Y is B. So when there is a claim that this is a sum of parts (which I can see is the case for A+B), then I expect that an astute language learner can understand from the context which combination of meanings applies. Application of this simplistic formula in the hope of getting from 鎖+具足 to “chainmail”+“armour” requires 鎖 → “chainmail” and 具足 → “armour”. Chainmail armour, to me, is armour fashioned of chainmail. The notion of “mail” as a quasi-fabric used to fashion armour is absent from either of the components 鎖 and 具足, but paramount in their compound 鎖具足. So, apparently, 鎖具足 ≠ 鎖+具足. --Lambiam 10:22, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: Ah, I see now where we have our disjuncture. I perceive English mail in this context as synonymous with armor (technically, a hyponym). Thus, English chain mail = chain + mail = chain + armor, which I view as analogous to 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 具足 (gusoku, “armor”). The usage of English mail in armor contexts is very limited, with (I think) only three such collocations allowed: chain mail, plate mail, scale mail. The more common senses of English mail could also arguably make the armor-related collocations more distinct lexically: we're not talking about sending these things via post, for instance. The usage of Japanese 具足 (gusoku) is not limited in this way, and I think this makes the collocation of kusari ("chain") + gusoku ("armor") less of an integral lexical item, and more of an SOP.

I'd also like to draw your attention back to the fact that English chain mail is not glossed as Japanese 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) in any reference I've encountered -- the term 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) is used instead. In fact, there is no page at ja:w:鎖具足 (Kusari gusoku), and the article at ja:w:鎖帷子 (Kusari katabira) contains zero instances of the term 具足 (gusoku). In addition, the JA WP article links through to the EN WP article at w:Chain_mail and vice versa. See also bilingual entries for "chain mail" at Eijiro and Weblio, glossing this in Japanese as 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira). See also the lack of any entries for 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) at Eijiro, Weblio, and monolingual dictionary and encyclopedia aggregator Kotobank. For that matter, Weblio's page amusingly suggests that kusari gusoku might equate instead to "chain furniture". :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

How chain mail is glossed in Japanese texts is (IMO) not relevant to the present issue. (This might have some limited relevance if the issue is whether the term can be verified.) I am not a native English speaker; I have always understood mail to refer primarily to the material, like one can say that early armour was “made from mail ”.^[1] Note that, whereas armour has a countable sense, chain mail is uncountable. A medieval knight may have been “wearing an armour”,^[2] but not _*“a chain mail”. In French, the term maille from which the English term is derived, is just a single link; you can combine a lot to make a cotte de mailles. Two centuries ago the term chain armour would have been readily understood,^[3], but today this is less obviously so.^[4] On Wikipedia, the article Kusari (Japanese mail armour) states: “Kusari gusoku (chain armour)(鎖具足) is the Japanese term for mail armour. Kusari is a type of armour used by the samurai class and their retainers in feudal Japan. When the word kusari is used in conjunction with an armoured item it usually means that the kusari makes up the majority of the armour defence.” This is supported by a citation to a book entitled A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: In All Countries and in All Times that mentions kusari gama, kusari gote, kusari kabuto, kusari katabira, kusari-kiahan, kusari sode, kusari tachi, kusari toji, kusari wakabiki, kusari-zukin. It seems reasonable (to me) to include a definition of the kind “(of armour) chain mail”. --Lambiam 21:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: The English Wikipedia's articles related to Japan are, far too often, a cesspit of pop-culture misunderstandings and imaginings about Japan. I generally avoid wading in on Wikipedia, as I simply don't have the time to simultaneously manage the morons while also assiduously citing every minor detail.

That particular article is one such example: the very first sentence in that article is plainly, patently wrong. What's more, the referenced work never uses the combined term kusari gusoku. Monolingual sources never mention armor or arms in definitions of the term 鎖 (kusari, “chain”), and given my own subjective understanding of the term and its uses, I'm not sure it makes sense to add any such sense to our entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

But what about the terms kusari gama, ..., kusari-zukin listed in the cited glossary. Are these not romanizations of attestable Japanese terms of art, such as 鎖帷子? --Lambiam 21:50, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: Sure. Here's a brief breakdown to provide a bit more detail and context.

鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 帷子 (katabira, “single-layer kimono”, literally “kata "single, one part of a pair", in reference to the usual double layering of a kimono + hira "flat thing" = "layer"”). Strictly speaking, 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) refers to a single layer of chain mail used as a shirt-like or robe-like garment covering the upper body. This is arguably the single most common application of the material called chain mail in English, which I suspect is why bilingual sources tend to relate these two terms. The material itself, as a sheet of linked metal loops, is often referred to using the English-derived term チェーンメール (chēn mēru). Some dictionary entries will clarify that the item of armor is kusari katabira, and the material is chēn mēru, as indeed we see in the two sense lines at the Eijiro entry for "chain mail".
鎖鎌 (kusari-gama) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 鎌 (kama, “sickle, scythe”). This is a weapon consisting of a short-bladed sickle with a long chain extending from the base of the handle. See the image at ja:w:鎖鎌, and more content in English at w:Kusarigama.
鎖頭巾 (kusari zukin) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 頭巾 (zukin, “hood”, literally “head + cloth”). See also the images at google:"鎖頭巾". Lemmings-wise, monolingual JA sources do not treat this as a single term.

Looking further at the other kusari items in that index view:

Kusari Gote: 鎖篭手 (kusari-gote, literally “chain + gauntlet”)
Kusari Kiahan: not a Japanese term, presumably a mistake for kusari kyahan → 鎖脚絆 (kusari kyahan, literally “chain + leggings, gaiters”), referring to something like chain-mail greaves, only presumably also covering the back of the lower leg, not just the shin.
Kusari Sode 鎖袖 (kusari sode, literally “chain + sleeve”). Lemmings-wise, monolingual Japanese sources do not treat this as a single lexical term.
Kusari Toji: I'm really not sure what this is supposed to refer to. The toji element is presumably 綴じ (toji, “binding, fastening”)? If so, this doesn't seem to be any specific item of armor.
Kusari Wakibiki: 鎖脇引き (kusari wakibiki, literally “chain + armpit-pulling”), from the way the material is pulled or drawn across the gap between the other parts of the armor: a piece of gousset. Lemmings-wise, monolingual Japanese sources do not treat this as a single lexical term.

I note a few other items listed in that index view, things like Krug, Kurdaitcha, and Kurtani, that cannot be Japanese terms. Given the instance of Kusari Kiahan, I am left uncertain if these are misspellings, or simply non-Japanese terms.

Anyway, HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The book is supposed to be a glossary for all countries, so it should not be a surprise to find Romanizations of Japanese terms in an alphabetical list in the company of non-Japanese terms.

Case in point. Imagine someone with a beginner’s level of Japanese who comes across the term 「鎖頭巾」 in a context where the meaning is not at all clear (such as an ad offering an antique 鎖頭巾 for sale). Since she cannot find the term in Wiktionary, she assumes it is a sum of parts, and looks up its components: 鎖 = “chain”; 頭巾 = “wimple, hood, gorget”. In her understanding of the term “chain”, it is a linear sequence of links. Neither ”chain wimple” nor “chain hood” make any sense to her, but after looking up the unfamiliar term “gorget” and seeing the image, she guesses that “chain gorget” could be a gorget worn on a chain, just like a “chain watch” is a watch on a chain. Is there a plausible way she could have discovered that in this combination 「鎖」implied an item made from mail? --Lambiam 22:14, 10 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: (after edit conflict)

... Where do you get the wimple or gorget senses for 頭巾 (zukin)? Those aren't in our entries. I can kinda see where wimple might come from, as the core meaning of the JA term is literally "head + cloth", and that's at least the right ballpark. But gorget is just wrong as a translation for 頭巾. The expected Japanese term is 喉当て (nodo-ate, literally “throat + putting, applying, placing-against”).

If you got kusari zukin and its mistranslation of "gorget" from the linked glossary by George Cameron Stone, I'm mystified -- I can't find any instances of zukin at all in that book, kusari or otherwise.

For the expected senses of 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 頭巾 (zukin, “hood, head covering”), I wouldn't expect as much potential for confusion as you suggest. For example, google:"chain hood" comes right up with pictures of the expected hood made of chain. Similarly, google:"chain shirt" and google:"chain gloves" come right up with relevant armor-related images, and even the more unusual google:"chain sleeves" and google:"chain leggings" find armor-related hits within the first page. :)

Some collocation-specific senses must be understood from context, even though the collocations themselves might not be lexical. Consider white crane. This could be a large white bird that inhabits wetlands, or it might be a white piece of construction equipment used to lift things. The term crane here is polysemic, but that doesn't necessitate that collocations using different senses of crane are necessarily lexical items unto themselves. So it is with 鎖 (kusari) -- though arguably even to a lesser extent than crane, since the armor and non-armor senses for 鎖 (kusari) are still about "loops of metal chained together". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ah, re: the erroneous gorget sense at ずきん, that is a mistake apparently entered when that page was created, which has not been replicated at the lemma entry at 頭巾#Japanese. I'm about to correct the ずきん entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

If chain hood can legitimately mean “hood fashioned of mail” (as an instance of, more generally, chain NP meaning “NP fashioned of mail”, then a sense is missing at English chain. --Lambiam 09:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

June 2020

死人#Adverb

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. I believe this is best analyzed as [[VERB-死]-人], and 人 "someone" can be replaced freely with "I", "you", etc. The usage examples should be moved to 死. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 05:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Comment: if we do keep this, I think it should be merge with the Gan sense under pronunciation 2. While it's analyzable as above, it seems to be fossilized as a kind of intensifier (at least in certain varieties). It's in some dictionaries, such as 南昌方言詞典 and 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. I'm leaning on the keep side, but I'm not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Actually, after some thought, the two meanings seem to be different depending on the verb/adjective. 南昌方言詞典 defines it as "用在動詞或形容詞後，表示令人非常（高興、生氣、難受等）" and lists 熱～, 笑～, 氣～, 煩～, 急～ and 冷～ as examples. To me, these belong to the definition that is being rfd-ed. @Mar vin kaiser who added the Gan sense recently. 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 defines it as "置於動詞之後，用來表示「非常……」、「很……」的意思" and lists 驚死人 and 貴死人 as examples. 驚死人 could be interpreted as the rfd-ed definition, but 貴死人 is harder to interpret as such. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

July 2020

苦無術

Latest comment: 29 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

手裏剣術

Japanese. Sum of parts, 苦無 "kunai" / 手裏剣 "shuriken" + 術 "technique". —Suzukaze-c (talk) 02:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Agreed for 苦無術. google books:"苦無術" "は" finds precious few hits, and most appear to be in Chinese-language texts at that. Delete.
Less certain for 手裏剣術. I note the existence of entries at Kotobank, though notably those are only encyclopedia entries. No dictionary to hand includes this as a term. I'm also uncertain how much to view 術 (jutsu) as a standalone noun, or as a suffixing element. If the latter, presumably this suffix would form a new word, as opposed to two discrete nouns that happen to be next to each other.

In addition, google books:"手裏剣術" "は" finds ample hits of this in running Japanese text. I think I'm still undecided on this one, possibly leaning towards weak keep. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:00, 15 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Delete both. I view 術(じゅつ) (jutsu) as a noun which makes the above (SOP) noun compounds. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

September 2020

악성비루스

Latest comment: 11 months ago9 comments8 people in discussion

This just means "the malign virus" in Korean. In this article we can see that North Korea has also called Ebola and MERS the "malign virus". Delete as sum of parts.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 07:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

And since Korean has no definite article, it may just as well mean “a malign virus”, which these viruses certainly are in the medical sense of “harmful, potentially lethal”. --Lambiam 21:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

If the gloss is correct, though, 악성비루스 refers not to the virus SARS-CoV-2 but to the disease COVID-19, which would technically make it not SOP anymore. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Mahagaja: There's no actual evidence that the gloss is correct. The creator is not a native speaker, and the actual NK statement in late July (quoted here) that presumably prompted this creation was about "a defector to South Korea suspected to have been infected by the 'malign virus'" ("악성 비루스에 감염된 것으로 의심되는 월남도주자"). The word used here, 감염 (gamyeom), is usually for viruses and not diseases.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 08:32, 18 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — LoutK (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Question: Could the use of this term be considered a euphemism? MSG17 (talk) 01:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Agree with Mahagaja. If the provided definition is correct, it is obviously not a SOP. This seems more like a verification issue to me. Fytcha (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Delete. It is a SOP. KCNA (in June 18, 2015 [5]) was also called "MERS", "SARS" and "Ebola virus" as "악성비루스" in 2015. And Choson Sinbo (in October 19, 2017) and Rodong Sinmun (in December 26. 2018) were also called "스툭스네트" (stuxnet) as "악성비루스" during 2017–18. Dubukimchi (talk) 11:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
If I'm understanding correctly, it's just a descriptor for Covid (most recently), and not a name for it. In that case it would be SOP. Ultimateria (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

January 2021

ポケットモンスター

Latest comment: 3 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English.

Continuing discussion from RFV to RFD per “WT:BRAND is for RFD, not RFV, take it there.” — Mnemosientje. J3133 (talk) 14:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:BRAND states: "A brand name for a product or service should be included if it has entered the lexicon." So the question is, can it be verified that 「ポケットモンスター」 has entered the Japanese lexicon. (For English Pokémon it appears that is has.^{[6][7][8][9][10][11]}) Should verification that there are uses attesting that a term has entered the lexicon not be handled at RfV? --Lambiam 00:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:BRAND is for WT:RFV and not for WT:RFD. (As per WT:BRAND 3 special cites are needed and not just any cites; WT:RFV is about finding and adding cites.) The closure of the RFV obviously was done in error. --2003:DE:372F:4522:88A8:41EC:CDF6:D857 20:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @Mnemosientje who closed the RFV. J3133 (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:RFV states that the RFV pages are for "disputing the existence of terms or senses", and to test whether something meets the attestation criterion at the WT:ATTEST header of WT:CFI. So I tend to heap everything that's not disputing the existence of a word into RFD. I can see how the wording of WT:BRAND can make it seem like a "verification" matter and thus be put under RFV, it's honestly open to interpretation and I don't have very strong feelings on the matter. The closure, though, was not in error: people had not been responding for two years (which seemed a bit ridiculous) and I could've just closed it as unresolved (as nobody seemed to care enough to solve it), which would've circumvented this whole discussion. If someone wants to solve the issue of this word meeting WT:BRAND (be it here or at RFD), go ahead, as long as it actually gets taken care of and doesn't sit unanswered for another 2 years. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Mnemosientje I would very much argue that WT:BRAND is an RFV matter, since it is about finding attestation of uses that meet WT:BRAND. As far as I can tell, that is also the current practice. — sur jec tion ⟨??⟩ 19:32, 14 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:55, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

CIA

Latest comment: 1 year ago16 comments8 people in discussion

Not a Korean word.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 04:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Delete. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Binarystep (talk) 05:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

CIA

Not a Japanese word. Delete. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think in general, English abbreviations (or other in the Latin script) are often/generally used in all languages, including languages, which don't use the Latin alphabet. If there is no change in the sense and is not a local invention, we don't need to include them as words in those languages. The pronunciation (if someone seems a value in just providing the pronunciation, such "shī-ai-ē") can be derived from individual letter pronunciations - C I A. I suggest CFI (or language-specific CFI) to include this. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN.

German USA, NASA have different gender/inflection than English USA, NASA. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

So, how does the German genders of these unrelated terms affect the Japanese term, which has no grammatical genders? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:03, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

幽霊四 (talk • contribs) must be confused -- this RFD is for the Japanese term CIA#Japanese, so anything about the German language, or about the terms USA or NASA in any language, are wholly irrelevant here.

Weak delete, in line with Anatoli's reasoning above. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 11:23, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: I'm not confused -- there was a comment above (quote) "all languages" and I gave examples regarding it. The German examples show that (quote) "English abbreviations .. are often used in .. languages .. If there is no change in the sense .., we don't need to include them .. pronunciation .." lacks a consideration of number, gender, inflection. Gender isn't a matter regarding English/Japanese, but other things can be. And even if it's pretty much similar in this case (English not having genders and treating CIA as a thing, CIA being singular - Japanese not having genders, CIA being singular or unmarked): If there's German CIA f because it is different from the English, why exclude CIA (CIA) if it exists? Having English CIA, French CIA f, German CIA f etc., but not having Japanese CIA (CIA) (no gender) gives the false impression it's only used in English, French, German etc. but not in Japanese. --幽霊四 (talk) 16:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@幽霊四: Thank you for laying out your reasoning in greater detail. Your position now makes more sense. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep, as CIA in Japanese does not refer to every possible "CIA". —Suzukaze-c (talk) 11:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think having entries like this are useful in telling readers what can be used in Japanese, if there is a way to verify they have "entered the lexicon". General Vicinity (talk) 11:15, 23 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Would DNA#Japanese be deleted with the same reasoning? General Vicinity (talk) 11:34, 23 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep for the same reason we have DNA (DNA), RAM (RAM), RNA (RNA), ROM (ROM), TNT (TNT), UFO (UFO), and USA (USA). Not every English acronym is used in Japanese, so it makes sense to document the ones that are. Binarystep (talk) 05:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep, mainly because CIA is fairly common in Japanese almost exclusively for the meaning of the US institution. I searched in a balanced corpus. The numbers of hits were: DNAの - 246 hits, PTAの - 111 hits, CIAの - 95 hits, UFOの - 38 hits, USAの - 21 hits. (I didn't check each entry's context to exclude possible homonyms, but I feel like they would be rare.) Whym (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

KCIA

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Not a Korean word. The actual Korean abbreviation is 중정 (Jungjeong).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 04:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

今日実子

Latest comment: 2 years ago19 comments5 people in discussion

Probably part of the Talk:真実和 series of nonsense. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Same page author, 4RM0 (talk • contribs), same time-frame, in mid-2008. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

After puzzling over another highly suspicious set of Japanese "female names" with other people, I've come to the conclusion that these websites make up kanji spellings by combining known names and kanji readings for the less imaginative. Reading 李 as い is only explainable as the Korean surname, and surely would not appear in someone's given name. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

https://web.archive.org/web/20070516205541/http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~ume20/f_name/index.html

The source of all evil? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I've deleted 今日実子 (Kyōmiko) as bogus. google:"今日実子さん" finds all of one hit, which is just a list of potential feminine given names -- of what provenance, I have no idea. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

吾実理

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/4RM0

this is stupid. can we just delete all of these female given names? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

No particular opposition from me. I might go so far as to suggest a quick Google search, and immediately deleting anything that doesn't return hits. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, I just searched as follows for one such spelling:

google:"吾実理" "は" -glosbe -namedic -weblio -name -enamae -wiki

That still returns hits, but only 4 of them, and all of these four are mentions and not actual cases of people with this name. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:55, 14 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/72.82.45.69, Special:Contributions/72.82.47.169

Blindly believing in red links. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Apparently deleted. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/Shāntián Tàiláng

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

The "edit summary search" is apparently broken, not returning more than one page of results. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/71.246.148.192

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/Tim Euler

—Fish bowl (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Surjection, Fish bowl, Eirikr: Any objections if I go ahead and mass delete + mass revert Tim Euler? His German edits were as clueless as always (I actually already suspected it was him on the 13th: [14]) so I have little faith in his edits in other languages. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:04, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha: I have no objection. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:18, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

No, by all means go ahead. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 05:39, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done. I spared 悼齔, 卵巢炎, תיקון because other editors have edited them in the meantime. FYI @Justinrleung. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

기 때문이다

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

@Wise Bridges Fool Walls, I think it's a sum of parts: 기 (gi, verbal nominalizer) + 때문 (ttaemun, “because”, bound noun following a noun to mark it as a cause) + 이다 (ida, “it is”) > "it is because..."--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

기 때문에

As above.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:53, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I will add that I think both should be redirected to 때문 (ttaemun).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Karaeng Matoaya: Honestly, I thought redirects might be more appropriate, but I was not sure. Thank you for letting me know.-—Wise Bridges Fools Walls (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

April 2021

Japanese ブルータス、お前もか

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

We have a very prolific anon from Vietnam, likely Baka Fumiko. This is one entry created by that anon.

I don't dispute that this is attestable. I question whether this is dictionary material. @TAKASUGI Shinji, Suzukaze-c, Huhu9001, Alves9, Dine2016, any other JA editors, what is your sense? Is this more widely used than I'm aware, with any overtones or nuances that might point to this meriting a dictionary entry? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 03:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Delete. It’s not a fixed phrase but rather a reference. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:02, 7 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Neutral —Suzukaze-c (talk) 23:23, 12 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Comment. It or the variant ブルータスよ is in Daijisen, Daijirin, Kōjien, and various kotowaza references. The first two even say 用いられる. BRPXQZME (talk) 04:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

October 2021

普仏

Latest comment: 29 days ago7 comments5 people in discussion

にちべい 日ロ 日鮮 日華 日仏 日米 日ソ 日蘭 日朝 日韓 日伊 日独 日印 日豪 日台 日清 日満 日英 日中 独伊 日独伊 日支

Special:Search/incategory:"Japanese collective nouns" incategory:"Japanese proper nouns" "chiefly attributive"

Sum of parts. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

As abbreviations, I'm not sure that these are so transparent as to make them non-lexical. Some in particular have multiple senses, or even multiple readings, such as 日中 (nitchū, “during the day, daytime; noon (in Buddhism); lunch; all day, a full day; Japan and China”) and 日中 (hinaka, “daytime; a half-day (rare); free daytime (rare)”).

I note that other dictionaries include most of these: 日米, 日華, 日仏, 日ソ, 日蘭, 日朝, 日韓, 日伊, 日独, 日印, 日豪, 日台, 日清, 日満 (in my hard-copy Daijirin), 日英, 日中, 日支.

I'm leaning towards keep. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'd like to note that 日 comes first because Japanese is spoken in an monolingual ethnostate; 日中 Japano-Chinese becomes 中日 Sino-Japanese in the name of the PRC-founded 中日友好. 日韓両国 is used by Japanese, and 韓日両国 is used by Koreans and in quotes of Koreans. It is obviously arbitrary. —Fish bowl (talk) 01:42, 19 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'd keep these because the pronunciation is not entirely predictable re sandhi (renjō, rendaku) and accent placement. Also most of these morphemes are bound. Then there can be more lexicalization than the combination alone would suggest, e.g. 日独伊 specifically refers to the Axis powers during the Second World War. Nardog (talk) 08:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

独仏

—Fish bowl (talk) 04:18, 19 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

内鮮, 内台

self-nomination, and if deleted, please move the content to 内#Etymology_2 —Fish bowl (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep all for the same reasons I laid out in #Japanese terms of 訪X (訪日 etc.): Kanji compounds in Japanese are generally phonologically unpredictable. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

January 2022

正八胞体

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Merely 5 results total at https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22正八胞体%22, accompanied in 4/5 results with similar constructions like 正多胞体正五胞体正十六胞体正六百胞体, which seems to make this an unremarkable sum of parts.

@Binarystep —Fish bowl (talk) 01:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

We document English equivalents like 5-cell, 8-cell, 16-cell, 24-cell, 120-cell, 600-cell, and so on without considering them sum of parts, I don't see why the Japanese terms should be treated differently. Binarystep (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think they're all also SOP by sense 19 of cell. WT:SOP: "Idiomaticity rules apply to hyphenated compounds in the same way as to spaced phrases." — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'd argue that 8-cell isn't SOP due to the fact that most people wouldn't automatically picture a tesseract when they hear the word, even if they knew the relevant definition of cell. Besides, where do we draw the line between SOP and common formulas used to construct new terms? You could easily make a convincing argument that common prefixes like anti- and non- should fall under SOP, along with chemical formulas like trichloromethane (if anything, chemical formulas are quite literally "sum of parts").

Point is, I think we should at least consider the context of how words are used. All of the "X-cell" entries (and any translations thereof) are legitimate mathematical terms, and I think removing them would do more harm than good. There's a difference between a generic term like "wooden door" and technical jargon that has zero meaning outside a specific context. Binarystep (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Another way to argue would be to point out that, since pentachoron etc. are obviously inclusion-worthy, it would be ridiculous to exclude their much more commonly used n-cell synonyms, especially since deletion of 5-cell entails the removal thereof in the article pentachoron. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 03:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Without the articles for 正八胞体 and its siblings, I would have no way to find out what it means, because the individual article for 胞 doesn’t have the meaning “cell (in 4-dimensional geometry)”, only “cell (in biology)”. The articles also provide translation entries for the English articles for “8-cell” and its siblings, as well as “tesseract”. If these are to be deleted, at the very least there should be a redirect added to 多胞体 “polytope (in 4D geometry)”.

122.213.236.124 02:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

March 2022

聯邦儲備系統

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

聯邦儲備局

(Notifying Atitarev, Tooironic, Fish bowl, Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser, RcAlex36, The dog2, Frigoris, 沈澄心, 恨国党非蠢即坏, Michael Ly): Chinese. Following the RFD-deletion of Federal Reserve System as being encyclopedic. My nomination is not to be counted as a vote cast for deletion. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 09:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

This one is tough. We do, after all have entries for the names of high-profile organisations. The dog2 (talk) 16:07, 3 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

実行に移す

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese.

# [[put into effect]], [[put into practice]]

Perhaps sum of parts? —Fish bowl (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Possibly. I note that various other things (both physical and abstract) can come before the に (ni): google:"に移す"

Definitely worth a usex and / or usage note at 移す. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

電話をかける

Latest comment: 29 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese.

===Etymology===
{{ja-l|電話}} (''telephone'') + {{ja-l|を}} + {{ja-l|かける}} ([[hiragana]] spelling of {{ja-l|掛ける}}, ''to speak'', ''to call out'')

===Verb===
{{ja-verb|でんわ を かける}}

# to [[call]] someone over the [[telephone]]

====Synonyms====
* {{ja-r|電%話する|でん%わ　する}}
* (''uncommon'') {{ja-r|架%電|か%でん}}: a [[call]]

====Antonyms====
* {{ja-r|電%話を切る|でん%わ　を　きる}}: to [[hang up]] the [[phone]]

====Related terms====
* (''intransitive'') {{ja-r|電%話がかかる|でん%わ が かかる}}:
* {{ja-r|電%話|でん%わ}}: [[telephone]]
* {{ja-r|電%話に出る|でん%わ に でる}}: to [[answer]] the [[phone]]

Perhaps sum of parts? Not in monolingual dictionaries. —Fish bowl (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

電話を切る

===Etymology===
From {{m|ja|電話||telephone|tr=denwa}} + {{m|ja|を|pos=a grammatical marker following the direct object|tr=o}} + {{m|ja|切る||to disconnect, to hang up; to cut|tr=kiru}}. Literally meaning "to hang up the phone" or to "disconnect or cut the phone".

===Verb===
{{ja-verb|でんわ を きる|type=1}}

# to [[hang up]], to [[terminate]] a [[phonecall]]

====Conjugation====
{{ja-go-ru|でんわ を き}}

Perhaps sum of parts? Not in monolingual dictionaries. —Fish bowl (talk) 20:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Both of these might count as SOP, but the idiomatic (or at least non-obvious) use of the verbs makes me unsure.

If these entries are removed, the collocations should definitely be included as usexes on the relevant entries (at least the verbs, possibly the noun as well). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:23, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

To me, both terms seem idiomatic, so I vote keep. Compare analogous Korean 전화를 걸다 (jeonhwareul geolda, “to telephone”) and (just created by me) Korean 전화를 끊다 (jeonhwareul kkeunta, “to hang up”).--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Leaning delete as SOP, though not super strongly. If deleted, these should definitely be added as {{coi}} to both the noun as well as the verbs entries. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

会計実務

Latest comment: 29 days ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese.

# [[accounting]] [[practice]]

"maybe SoP" —Fish bowl (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Also definitely SOP. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:42, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. No more idiomatic than similar phrases like 人事実務 and 不動産実務. Whym (talk) 11:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

RFD-deleted. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

ワープロソフト

Latest comment: 29 days ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Sum of parts, ワープロ "word processor" + the explanatory qualifier ソフト "software". —Fish bowl (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

SOP. Delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Binarystep (talk) 06:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looks SOP but it's in 大辞林. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

May 2022

ミル

Latest comment: 29 days ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese.

===Etymology===
Borrowed from {{bor|ja|en|mill}}, from {{m|en|Millstone}}, a ''{{w|Magic: The Gathering}}'' card with a similar effect.

===Noun===
{{ja-noun}}

# {{lb|ja|Hearthstone}} A strategy centered on depleting the opponent's deck.

====Derived terms====
* {{l|ja|ミルウォーロック}}
* {{l|ja|ミルウォリアー}}
* {{l|ja|ミルデッキ}}
* {{l|ja|ミルドルイド}}, {{l|ja|ミルドル}}
* {{l|ja|ミルローグ}}

Game-specific official jargon, WT:FICTION? —Fish bowl (talk) 10:29, 25 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is it official jargon? From the info provided on the page, I assumed it was a fandom term. Binarystep (talk) 21:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Crikey, what a dog's breakfast. The entry misses the perfectly cromulent senses of English surname Mill, or the mil that is one thousandth of an inch, or the ミル (miru) that is the common name for Codium, a kind of edible seaweed, or the borrowing of English mill that appears in various borrowed compounds, such as コーヒーミル (kōhī miru, “coffee mill”).

No time at the moment to dive in and fix the entry. Suffice it to say that Etym 1 as it currently stands must likely be deleted due to WT:FICTION. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'm only familiar with this term in English, not Japanese, but in English it refers to a game mechanic that exists in multiple CCGs. If the Japanese word is used the same way, I think it should obviously be kept. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

July 2022

nihon

Latest comment: 29 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. The correct transcription is Nihon. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:17, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, it looks like our entry at にほん is deficient. Certainly the country name should be capitalized, but there are also common nouns with this romanization, specifically 二本 (nihon, “two long slender objects”) and 二品 (nihon, “under the Ritsuryō system of ancient Japan, the second rank of imperial princes”). Actually, I'm unclear if the 二品 one might be a title, in which case capitalization might be more appropriate there too, but 二本 at least doesn't have any such connotations. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

RFD-retracted. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

千夜一夜物語

Latest comment: 29 days ago7 comments4 people in discussion

一千一夜物語
[edit]
千一夜物語
[edit]

アラビアンナイト

Japanese. One Thousand and One Nights (a novel). Encyclopaedic. Theknightwho (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

It's odd / an idiomatic translation of the title, as we'd expect something more like 千一夜物語 (Sen'ichiya Monogatari). Rendering "thousand and one nights" as 千夜一夜 (sen'ya ichiya, literally “thousand nights one night”) is weird.

That said, it is only the title of a book, and thus is not something to include here, so far as I understand WT:CFI.

The creator of all three entries has struggled with various Wiktionary norms and standards. I suspect this might be a similar case. They have ceased editing from their named account, but still occasionally edit from IP addresses geolocating to Vietnam.

Delete as "not dictionary material", for all of these:

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:53, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps something akin to Chinese 一千零一夜? It's a very emphatic "one thousand and one", so maybe they're just both going for the English emphasis on the starting one. The repetition of 夜 doesn't make sense to me either, but I don't know any Japanese and I have no idea what the translator was trying to get at. I suppose there's a bit of interesting lexical background to it, but the same goes for the titles of loads of other books too. At best, it should go in an appendix. Theknightwho (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr, Theknightwho: Should アラビアンナイト also be deleted? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Ah, yes, that is also just another iteration of the book title, and thus that also fails CFI. Same entry creator, FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:41, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: Okay, thanks. I've gone ahead and tagged アラビアンナイト and 千一夜物語 for deletion as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:16, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

RFD-deleted. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

禮拜儀式

Latest comment: 2 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 禮拜 "religious service" + 儀式 "ritual". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is this limited to Christianity in Chinese? Theknightwho (talk) 16:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Theknightwho: No, it could also be used for Islam, for example. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think it probably does pass WT:PRIOR, though. The Christian liturgy is a well-defined concept. Theknightwho (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Theknightwho: I don't see how it would have any more specific meaning than the sum of its parts. Liturgy can look very different across different branches of Christianity. Also, 禮拜的儀式 is also commonly attested, which suggests that the "compound" isn't that tight. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:33, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @Mar vin kaiser as the entry creator. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I think the reason why I added this is because it can be said as the equivalent of the English word "liturgy" which itself can be used for Islam and Buddhism (Islamic liturgy and Buddhist liturgy). I think the meaning of 禮儀 is broad enough (it could mean etiquette? ceremony?) that it would be useful and reasonable to have this entry remain to provide people the technical term in Chinese for "liturgy". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

August 2022

Japanese entries by User:Japanfreak0

Latest comment: 29 days ago32 comments5 people in discussion

I've gone through some of their contributions. Most (all?) of this appears to be copy-paste from some other bilingual JA→EN dictionary, which includes lots of things that we would treat as SOP. There's the occasional nugget of validity in there, but most of the entries they've created are problematic. I've flat-out deleted a small handful of them as patently obvious phrasal SOP, and I've listed a few others below. I don't have time to fully vet the rest of their contributions, however, so I'd like to ask the rest of us to pitch in. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

一時会計監査人#Japanese

SOP:

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
会計 (kaikei, “[financial] accounting”)
監査人 (kansanin, “auditor”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時休業#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
休業 (kyūgyō, “work suspension; shutdown; holiday”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Suitable for {{coi}} though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時帰休#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
帰休 (kikyū, “layoff, furlough”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. It's also in DJR. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時帰休制#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
帰休 (kikyū, “layoff, furlough”)
制 (sei, “system”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Suitable for {{coi}} though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預かり#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預かり (azukari, “custody; checking, as in a coat check or luggage check; taking something or someone into one's care from someone else”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete States that this term is especially used with baggage. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預け#Japanese

Also SOP, just using the related verb stem 預け (azuke, “putting something or someone in someone else's care”) to express the other side of the action (putting into care, as opposed to taking into care). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Weak Keep States that this term is especially used with baggage. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預かり証#Japanese

Meh, might be valid, looks borderline SOP to me.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預かり (azukari, “custody; checking, as in a coat check or luggage check; taking something or someone into one's care from someone else”)
証 (shō, “certificate”)

→ "claim check"

If this is deemed not SOP, the entry needs cleanup -- Japanfreak0 goofed on the reading, etc.

Delete No special usage this time Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預所#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預所 (azukari-sho, “check, depository, storage place”)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep The English translation is "cloakroom" not "temporary depository" Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時解雇#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
解雇 (kaiko, “dismissal, firing”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep Usage contrasts with 一時帰休. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. It's also in DJR. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一言も無い#Japanese

SOP.

一言 (ichigon, “one word”)
も (mo, “even”)
無い (nai, “not have”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0.

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

There might be some value to this, as the first term 一言 could also have the pronunciation hitokoto or ichigen, and in this particular turn of phrase, it seems like ichigon is more common / traditional. I would argue that this would be better as a usex at 一言 (ichigon) though, as I don't think this is enough to merit a full independent entry. There's also the problem that this might be shifted to more polite forms such as 一言もありません (ichigon mo arimasen) or 一言もございません (ichigon mo gozaimasen). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

It is somewhat idiomatic in the sense of "[I have] no complaints", "no excuse", etc, in agreement to what has been said by others. It is usually not used in the sense of "I have no words [because I am astonished]". Isn't there a need to explain that? Whym (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Idiomatic. I'm solely to blame. I have no means of refutation / face-saving. #apologetic

WT:LEMMING 大辞泉, 「一言もありませんが」のNG例とお勧め文例 -- Ywhy (talk) 07:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Undelete 丿部, 支部, and 辵部

Latest comment: 2 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion

These names for Kangxi radicals were all deleted for supposedly being SOP, despite the fact that they reference the characters' shapes rather than their meanings. They're no more "sum-of-parts" than 十字 or H-shaped. Binarystep (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'd also like to note that 丿部 was deleted after four months by an RFD with zero votes (not counting the nomination), and no discussion other than my initial objection. There are entries at the top of this page (such as 死人 (sǐrén)) that have managed to survive for over a year under similar circumstances. Binarystep (talk) 05:55, 28 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Support undeletion it doesn't make sense to do so, since there are useful non-encyclopedic information about these radicals, such as their names and pronunciation in each languages, which sometimes can be different from the normal pronunciation. Also it is absurd that we have entries like 單人旁 and 走之底 which are the descriptive names of the radicals, but not the standard 人部 or 辵部. I do see the reason of the deletion about SoP to be sort of valid, but if they are treated as such the radicals would require a separate etymology in the character pages, since they "reference the characters' shapes rather than their meanings" as BinaryStep suggested. However this would mean that the information about radicals to be extremely scattered across an already lengthy page, if not forgetting about them entirely, which is the case for most pages. –Wpi31 (talk) 02:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comment: 部 is added to each Kangxi radical name, so in a way these are kind of SoP. These should probably be instead be a definition under 丿, 支, 辵, etc. Also, it's not fair to compare these to 單人旁; things like 人部 and 辵部 (as far as I can tell) refer to the classification of a character under a particular radical, which may or may not reflect a particular component of a character (i.e., it's an abstraction from character components). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

What about separating 人(U+4EBA) and ⼈(U+2F08) etc? That way it won't be SoP, but also allows separate radical entries to be created at the codepoints in the Kangxi Radical block. –Wpi31 (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

A separate "radical" part of speech would be better, especially given the Kangxi arrangement was not the only one. Theknightwho (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi31: They were separated, but were merged: https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=⼈&action=history —Fish bowl (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep deleted as Justin notes. See also my comment at Talk:丿部. —Fish bowl (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: I count 1 support vote and 0 oppose votes. Given that 丿部 was deleted without any votes at all, it doesn't seem fair to hold this RFD to a higher standard. Binarystep (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Japanese entries くぁw背drftgy富士子lp and くぁwせdrftgyふじこlp

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Meaningless gibberish, produced by just mashing on a keyboard.

If this is intended to signify something, the entries could benefit greatly from the addition of a descriptive definition. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

asdfghjkl#English —

{{lb|en|Internet slang}} {{non-gloss definition|Expresses a moment of [[incoherence]] due to emotion on the part of the speaker.}}

.

The Japanese entry also links to w:ja:くぁwせdrftgyふじこlp, which lists at least 4 usages in popular culture. —Fish bowl (talk) 18:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Why on earth should a user have to click through to an entry in a completely different language, or a completely different project, in order to finally find what might be a definition? If we start at くぁw背drftgy富士子lp, that's at least two clicks away. This is unacceptable. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl Is this keysmashing? Theknightwho (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Theknightwho Umm probably yes (and I know I am not Fish bowl. Kanjishowa21-4 (talk) 17:20, 12 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unstriking, as I do not think that either entry is useful in their current states. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

騷靈現象

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 騷靈 + 現象. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:05, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

	Input needed
	This discussion needs further input in order to be successfully closed. Please take a look!

薄薄

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "flimsy; weak". Common for adjectives to be reduplicated. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:26, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Undecided. One may argue that there is a semantic shift from "thin; not thick" to "filmsy; weak" and therefore this should be kept, but I wonder if this particular sense is actually attested or not. The vast majority of ghits seems to only mean "thin; not thick". Might be an RFV issue? – wpi (talk) 17:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

	Input needed
	This discussion needs further input in order to be successfully closed. Please take a look!

November 2022

知らんがために我は信ず

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Some kind of apparently SOP motto. This, that and the other (talk) 10:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Full phrases like this are generally not includable unless they are proverbs. Is this one?

Re: the apparently derivation as a calque of Latin credo ut intelligam (WP article: Credo_ut_intelligam), I think the JA literally parses out as "I don't know, so I don't believe", which would seem to be quite different from the Latin... ??? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think it’s a correct literal translation:

知らん, the classical volitional form of 知(し)る (shiru), directly translates intelligam, a form of the verb intelligere (“to understand”) in the present subjunctive;
ために and ut both indicate purpose;
信ず would be the classical conclusive form of modern 信(しん)ずる (shinzuru), so 我は信ず directly translates credō, which is a first person singular form of crēdere (“to believe”).

About whether it’s a proverb, I googled it and it seems to be used mostly in reference to Anselm’s position of credo ut intelligam. Examples:

here, p. 6:
アンセルムスが合理主義にも反主知主義にも反対し，「知らんがために我は信ず」という信仰と知識の関係を調和的に捉えている点では，本当のスコラ哲学の父として認められると九鬼は考えているわけである。それについては以下のように述べられている。
here, ６１−７０位:
アンセルムス(1033-1109) 　イタリア生まれのスコラ学者。「知らんがために我は信ず」の立場をとり，神の存在証明を試みた。初期スコラ学の代表者の一。

Since it seems to be a consistently used translation, could it be included like 我思(われおも)う、故(ゆえ)に我(われ)在(あ)り (ware omou, yue ni ware ari, “I think, therefore I am”) was? Mcph2 (talk) 13:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Mcph2, thank you for the breakdown, at first blush I clearly got the wrong end of the stick.

That said, I see that google books:"知らんがために我は信ず" -wiki -dict nets a paltry 29 ostensible hits, collapsing to just 16 when paging through. While clearing CFI's bar of three, this is still clearly not widely used in the Japanese-writing world. Searching instead for google books:"credo ut intelligam" "は" -dict -wikt -wiki (adding the Japanese topic particle は (wa) to filter for Japanese texts), we get 367 ostensible hits, collapsing to 167 when paging through, most of which seem to offer different translations of the Latin.

By way of contrast, google books:"我思う、故に我在り" gives us 1,780 ostensible hits. Still not tons, but substantially more. Alternative spelling google books:"我思う、故に我あり" yields another 2,950 ostensible hits. I see also that both the Kojien and Gakken dictionaries include this latter phrase, while omitting the former.

I don't think this particular phrase, 知らんがために我は信ず (shiran ga tame ni ware wa shinzu), passes muster. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: I hadn’t thought of searching Google Books like that. Since it’s rarely used and it’s one of many translations of the same Latin phrase, I agree that we should delete it. Mcph2 (talk) 13:24, 11 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

If it's rarely used, couldn't it just receive a "rare" qualifier? MedK1 (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

九龍公園

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:19, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't have any comments as to whether or not this should be deleted, but if that is the official name of the park, I'd avoid making the rationale SOP and focus around whether or not it's encyclopedic (especially because there's no subentry for it at 九龍 / 九龙 (jiǔlóng) nor a redirect already and since it's a public park). See: Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion § Place names. An example of a clear keep would be if 科科斯板块 were an entry: it would be kept by default or redirected to 科科斯 with a subsense with 板块 (bǎnkuài) at the definition line. AG202 (talk) 01:36, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comment. We currently have Hyde Park and Central Park, among others. The question is where do we go from here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

After some thought, I do think this is not quite SoP. I agree with AG202's and Tooironic's comments. I'd probably say at least a weak keep as a rather notable park in Hong Kong. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Changed to RFD-sense for "a unit of area equivalent to the size of Kowloon Park, approximately 13.3 hectares" — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:48, 1 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

December 2022

Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/na-

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

see page here

I don't think this root should have it's own page. Each verb can simply go as "cognate with transitive/intranstive verb *xxx". Chuterix (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

I've encountered a separate theory, that Japanese verbs なる (naru, “to become”, intransitive, mediopassive) and なす (nasu, “to make, to do”, transitive) can be viewed as extensions of a theorized ancient Japonic copula ぬ (nu), which manifests still in modern Japanese as an archaic verb conjugation suffix indicating that an action is complete, usually without intent (contrasting with the more common action-completion and past-tense suffix た (ta), evolving from older つ (tsu), which did indicate intent).

nu ("is")
naru ("become")
nasu ("cause to become")

I don't think the root is na-.

I believe it might have been Frellesvig who wrote about this ancient "n"-based copula. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

"I don't think the root is na-."

This is why I want the entry *na- I created to be deleted.

Interesting that naru and nasu was made from nu. Chuterix (talk) 04:25, 10 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

四海兄弟 - Japanese

Latest comment: 29 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Listed by @Tooironic.

I'd argue that this is not SOP as Japanese: this literally breaks down to "four seas siblings", which isn't immediately associatable with the gloss of "universal brotherhood". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Listed as 四字熟語 on 三省堂新明解四字熟語辞典 and 小学館デジタル大辞泉. NM 01:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Keep per Eirikr and tons of lemmings. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

January 2023

hold住

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP. hold + 住 (verb suffix). – Wpi31 (talk) 14:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi31: Are all these meanings compatible with other suffixes or without a suffix? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

@justinrleung: the three HKC senses should be the same with or without the suffix.

The problematic one is the Mandarin neologism sense, which AFAIK is borrowed from HKC and is always followed by the suffix. (and I don't think it could be used in this way in HKC) – Wpi31 (talk) 02:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The pronunciation part can be useful. 内存溢出的猫 (talk) 05:52, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

February 2023

軍事監獄

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese SOP: 軍事／军事 (jūnshì) + 監獄／监狱 (jiānyù). Also refer to the explanation for the corresponding English term.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete, unless the English equivalent has strong arguments for keeping. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Comment: the corresponding English term has been kept after RFV. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

outlook

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. Probably code-switching of outlook#Etymology 2. Main question is whether the “look; appearance” meaning of outlook appeared first in English (then this would be code-switching and deleted) or Chinese (then this should be kept). – Wpi31 (talk) 13:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

PS: I believe there's a slight semantic difference here: in Chinese, "outlook" only refers to the appearance of a person, whereas in English it could also mean the appearance of objetcs in general (as evidenced by some of the quotes). – Wpi31 (talk) 13:33, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. See Weird regional usages of English: "There is a huge amount of (Cantonese to English) negative language transfers in Hong Kong English (or ‘Honglish’), such as the proverbial oddball misuse of outlook for 外貌 (‘outward appearance‘), body check (for medical checkup), and open/close (for switch on/off)." -- Ywhy (talk) 01:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Please avoid using a non-academic source (i.e. a random wordpress post). It is obvious that the word is originally from English, but the question is whether the "appearance" sense is an internal development in English or is it a semantic shift or (mis)interpretation in Cantonese. Note that research is hard since Cantonese is pretty much non-existent on the Internet pre-2000, and most conversations resort to using English since most netizens in that era are well-educated. Until we know the answer to the question, it is difficult to make any decision. I think we could stale this discussion (i.e. keeping it open) or close as no consensus. – Wpi (talk) 05:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I share the blog author's take on this matter and he put it way more eloquently than the tongue-tied me can ever do.
In addition, in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 5th ed.(2009), Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary 4th ed.(1989), 6th ed.(2000) & 9th ed.(2015), no definition of outlook includes 'outward appearance'. So it must have been calqued on Cantonese 外表 rather than stemmed from standard English. -- Ywhy (talk) 23:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm not saying that it is developed in standard English - even the English entry outlook says it's a Hong Kong English word; I was instead considering the possibility that the word is an internal development within Hong Kong English. Even then we can't rush to such conclusion. – Wpi (talk) 03:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

March 2023

泡菜妹

Latest comment: 2 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 泡菜 "kimchi" + 妹 "girl". Mahogany115 (talk) 02:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete since we have the adjective sense "Korean" under 泡菜. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Neutral —Fish bowl (talk) 07:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

コロナ

Latest comment: 1 year ago11 comments3 people in discussion

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/CJK.

Japanese. Rfv-sense: person who is infected by (novel) coronavirus

I found one use of this in 2020 (see Citations:コロナ), but haven't been able to find others. It is difficult to search for, as most written sources that would include it would also include terms such as 新型コロナウイルス感染症 etc. I've searched several Japanese newspapers and only found that one. I've searched the web, but gave up after being inundated by mention of the pandemic generally. Cnilep (talk) 05:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

...and the one from 2020 is no longer available. Cnilep (talk) 06:10, 2 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

I tried to find some online. Whether they are good for WT:ATTEST is doubtful, but at least a 自治体 is "better" than some Internet rando.

https://www.nippon.com/ja/japan-topics/c030119/ 今だったら絶対みんなに『あいつコロナだ』と言われただろうね。

https://www.sankeibiz.jp/econome/news/200402/ecb2004021601008-n1.htm 「『おまえコロナやろ』と言われるから、行かない」

https://www.town.kotohira.kagawa.jp/uploaded/life/6736_8499_misc.pdf あいつコロナだ（事実無根のうわさ） おい、「コロナ」（悪意のある愛称）

https://www.city.kitakyushu.lg.jp/page/dayori/200701/pdf/files/200701_page01.pdf 咳をしている、あの人コロナかも？

https://www.city.nishiwaki.lg.jp/material/files/group/5/reiwa2nenn6gatu.pdf 咳をしている　あの人、コロナ？

https://www.tmd.ac.jp/med/psyc/topics/covid-19/henken.pdf 咳をしているあの人コロナかも

https://es.higo.ed.jp/nanataki-c/wysiwyg/file/download/20/2333 教室で「あの人、コロナじゃない？」などと言っている人

http://www.furanoryokuho.hokkaido-c.ed.jp/shiryou/mado/%90%B6%93k%8Ew%93%B1%95%94%95%D6%82%E8/_%90%B6%93k%8Ew%93%B1%95%94%95%D6%82%E8R2%94N%93x%91%E61%8D%86.pdf 「あいつコロナなんじゃない？」

—Fish bowl (talk) 08:24, 2 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

[BTW, One News is a regional broadcast television news program rather than "some Internet rando", but they apparently don't durably archive the content they upload to the web. Cnilep (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2022 (UTC)]Reply

Just noticed that the definition has "Internet slang" in it. The quotes suggest that this label is too specific, or that this usage has escaped the Internet. This should be amended. —Fish bowl (talk) 01:16, 25 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

http://hdl.handle.net/10723/00004148 弱者に降りかかるCOVID-19（聴き手：野口久美子、鄭栄桓） 近所の人が「あの人はコロナだ」って

http://doi.org/10.14988/00028307 特措法・感染症法の改正 : 罰則の検討を中心にして 路上で、「俺はコロナだ」などと言って、他人に息を吹きかけた事件

—Fish bowl (talk) 03:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

I parse all these attestations as referring to the novel coronavirus (disease), or at best the state of being infected with it, much like the famous "僕はうなぎだ". Notice they're all preceded by a topic of a person. Defining it as a person with the virus would be akin to defining うなぎ as "a person who eats eel". Nardog (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Nardog: Yeah I can see that interpretation. Then what do you think of the definition "infected person" itself? Does it exist? Should it be removed? —Fish bowl (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think it should, that's what I was implying. At least I don't see it's supported by any of the citations above or in Citations:コロナ so far. The "小" in "コロナ小" is clearly the suffix standing for "小学校", so it better translates as "Corona Elementary". Nardog (talk) 02:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Moved to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/CJK. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:08, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. The citations simply do not support this definition (so I don't understand why it was moved here). You could replace the word in them with 癌, 糖尿病, etc. and they would be still grammatical, but we don't define them as "person with cancer" or "person with diabetes". This is a function of the syntax, not of this lexical item. Nardog (talk) 00:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

貧富の差

Latest comment: 29 days ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. "wealth inequality": sum of parts. (@Shen233) —Fish bowl (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

agreed, go ahead Shen233 (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, I note that this is a set phrase. One doesn't say, for instance, 富貧の差 (fuhin no sa, literally “rich poor 's difference”). An alternative way to say this in Japanese is 持てる者と持たざる者の差 (moteru mono to motazaru mono no sa, literally “can-have people and not-have people 's difference”), but this is also a set phrase: one cannot swap the noun order to 持たざる者と持てる者の差 (motazaru mono to moteru mono no sa) and still have it sound "right" -- just as one cannot say "the difference between the have-nots and the haves" and have that still work stylistically / idiomatically.

All that said, I'm not sure how much set-phrase-ness counts towards grounds for inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think 貧富 vs 富貧 is a separate matter. 寒暖の差 is much more common than 暖寒の差, but that doesn't inform us anything about the の差 part, which is the main part to look at when discussing whether it is a sum of parts or not. --Whym (talk) 12:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm inclined to say it's not idiomatic enough considering the parts can be separated, as in 貧富の大きな差[15]. Whym (talk) 13:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards delete. Makes for a good collocation though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

April 2023

ジャンヌ・ダルク

Latest comment: 29 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese

This was tagged long ago but seems not to have been listed here. The fate of this RFD should probably be tethered to that of its donor language term, at Jeanne d'Arc, unless we can see metaphorical use in one language not present in the other. —Soap— 11:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

It occurred to me after I posted this that I'd rather see it at RFV, since what we're looking for is metaphorical use, but I will leave this here as its French counterpart stands currently at its own RFD. —Soap— 11:57, 21 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

If Pricasso is allowed then I don't see why ジャンヌ・ダルク and Jeanne d'Arc shouldn't be. Protegmatic (talk) 17:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

It was included with other-language equivalents at Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English. —Fish bowl (talk) 07:15, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree that this should be solved as a matter of RFV. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

流量密碼

Latest comment: 1 month ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Sum of parts: "the password [key] to [getting] website traffic". ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:40, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Neutral: are there other figurative uses of 密碼 like this? Is it a collocation with other similar collocations, or is it more unique? —Fish bowl (talk) 07:16, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: likely an artifact of translation. off the top of my head:

The Wealth Codes: How to Build Massive Wealth	致富法則；財富密碼
The Secret To Success	成功的秘訣；成功的密碼（ambiguous：成功的秘密）
The Secret To Viral Post	流量密碼

Delete. --Ywhy (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

That makes sense to me; delete. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete per above, but do we need a separate sense for 密碼 meaning a figurative "secret to unlocking something"? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete but add a separate sense for 密碼 per Justin, for example google:"財富密碼". – wpi (talk) 16:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

May 2023

法性寺入道前関白太政大臣

Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Fujiwara no Tadamichi. According to WT:NSE, [n]o individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic, which should also applies to specific names referring to a person like this. The entry is therefore out of scope.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

後京極摂政前太政大臣

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Kujō Yoshitsune. Delete for the same reasons (out of scope per WT:NSE) as mentioned above.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

入道前太政大臣

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Saionji Kintsune. Delete for the same reasons (out of scope per WT:NSE) as mentioned above.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

It seems that you overlooked the last part of the green text: “...page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic”; linking the four for emphasis. Don’t see the alleged proper names there... what seems to be the matter? You were probably thinking about card numbers 6, 11, 16, etc. of that particular anthology which do have said names... by the way, there’s a few more! ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 05:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

OK, perhaps I misunderstood. I thought WT:NSE may also extend to cover specific non-idiomatic personal names that may not fulfill these requirements. This leads to another point: they are prime examples of sum of parts, just like we won't create an entry named Queen Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of this Realm and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith that states that it's the formal title of Elizabeth II, or Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular as the title for the dictator Idi Amin.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is the first time am seeing a user appealing to the SOP card when the sense(s) do mean more than just them... assuredly, the above three aren’t the so-called “non-idiomatic sum of parts” you were expecting; and do not drag English to this discussion. An example that would both qualify for SOP and NSE is 6 (Middle Counselor Yakamochi) and 11 (Councillor Takamura) mentioned earlier. Since when is the “courtesy title of...” sense out of scope for this or other non-English language? Never seen such a case... what of Zhongni (second-born from Ni Hill), for Confucius? ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 05:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but as the terms's meaning are clearly directing to the courtesy names of people, why are you speaking card numbers? Some sort of playing card meanings like king of spades? I don't understand.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

To the point: at least read Hyakunin Isshu on Wikipedia to know what these three really are. Where in the NSE says that courtesy names, especially in foreign languages, are “out of scope” from your understanding? Don’t see any proper names of persons somewhere in the three you are requesting for deletion.. ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 13:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

耳朵聾

Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments6 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 耳朵 + 聾. – Wpi31 (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Silghtly weak keep.You know what, I’ll say keep as well, instead of delete. As the creator of the 耳朵聾 page, I don’t usually keep a check and research before making any pages here. I’m just a normal editor. I’m not a linguist or anything like that in any way. So I am sorry that I didn’t research beforewards. It is shown as a dialectal variant on the 聾 page. (I know this page (link here) is my creation) Kanjishowa21-4 (talk) 17:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep. It seems to be 'idiomatic' (not necessarily non-SoP, but a normal way of expressing this, as opposed to 耳聾) in some varieties (see the dialectal synonyms at 耳聾). (The page needs a clean-up, though, if we keep this.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Upon a quick check in a handful of Wu topolectal dictionaries (Suzhounese, Chongmingnese, Hangzhounese), all of them define the term as equivalent to 耳背 (hard of hearing) instead of "deaf" - i.e. not equivalent to 耳聾. The Chongming dictionary in fact distinguishes between 聾耳朵 (deaf) and 耳朵聾 (hard of hearing) which to me seems like it could warrant a keep. – Musetta6729 (talk) 01:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep. The Wu word exists warrants an entry per above, but the current entry itself is SoP and requires some heavy reworking/clean up. – Wpi31 (talk) 05:53, 13 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Redirect to 耳背. This is already documented in the dialectal synonyms of 耳背. -- Ywhy (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

They are completely different words, so they should not be redirected. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

V我50

Latest comment: 10 months ago10 comments5 people in discussion

Chinese. This seems to be a common collocation, but it's SoP. The entry should probably be at V. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Move to V. V你50 is similarly common. – Wpi (talk) 13:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. or else we have 微我相片微我簡報微聊 -- Ywhy (talk) 02:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is an Internet slang. Others are not.

vivo X90 推出“v 我 50”肯德基联名礼盒，将于明日“疯狂星期四”发布内存溢出的猫 (talk) 04:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@内存溢出的猫: It might be an Internet meme, but how is it not the sum of its parts V (verb) + 我 (indirect object) + 50 (direct object)? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

What about mentioning "esp in reference to eating at KFC" in this entry? 内存溢出的猫 (talk) 05:38, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@内存溢出的猫: This feels very encyclopedic rather than something for a dictionary. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:37, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Finally I get it. Marketing gimmick by KFC[16]. Only V我50 or V你50 are popularized, as it's roughly the amount spent for a single visit.

Advertisement/Endorsement of KFC & Vivo -- Ywhy (talk) 13:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Although this was incorporated into KFC's official marketing, the original campaign didn't have this phrase, which likely started as an Internet slang later. 内存溢出的猫 (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Move to V perhaps. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:04, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

June 2023

민서

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Korean. Just an English transliteration. The English word "meatgrinder" is commonly called as "(육)세절기" in Korean. [17][18][19][20] Dubukimchi (talk) 03:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Dubukimchi: It seems attestable for this sense. Cognate with Japanese ミンサー (minsā). Also check 미트 민서 (miteu minseo, “meat mincer”) in Google searches. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:04, 14 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev: ᅟI found some results in Google, but it is used to only a limited extent as a compound of "미트 민서" or "민서-기(機)". Dubukimchi (talk) 08:28, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Dubukimchi: Hi. Thanks. I've made some changes to the entry based on the limited results. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Send to RFV? —Fish bowl (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: Yes, it can be. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

川中島

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @Fish bowl but not listed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

窗外

Latest comment: 2 days ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Chinese. SOP. See also Talk:outside a window and WT:RFDE#outside a window. This, that and the other (talk) 07:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

WT:LEMMING: Taiwan MoE Guoyu and Taiwan MoE Min Nan ? —Fish bowl (talk) 04:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete. I'd have removed 門外 too. -- Ywhy (talk) 02:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep per WT:LEMMING as Fish bowl suggested. – wpi (talk) 16:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD kept (no consensus). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

黃大仙祠

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion#Place_names: this is a building. – Wpi (talk) 18:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

I wonder if it can be kept as a noun referring to any Wong Tai Sin temple (rather than the specific one in Hong Kong). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

July 2023

ダース

Latest comment: 29 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. Rfd-sense: "(Star Wars) Darth"

WT:FICTION; Darth#English does not have an in-universe definition. @AztecWarrior28

—Fish bowl (talk) 02:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've taken the liberty to remove this despite the lack of discussion. If quotations compliant with WT:FICTION are brought forth, this can be re-added (though with a different sense). — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

August 2023

值銅鈿

Latest comment: 25 days ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 值+銅鈿. Musetta6729 (talk) 11:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I feel like it's keepable? "Worth money" doesn't necessarily mean "worth a lot of money", right? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 11:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete "is [adjective]" always psycholinguistically means "is noticably [adjective]] in all languages, especially Chinese with 很 (hěn) Daniel.z.tg (talk) 05:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Mainly I felt as if 值銅鈿 was not a distinctly lexicalized construction. It is (to me) a somewhat acceptable way to say "valuable" but I wouldn't say it's that idiomatic at all - in Shanghainese at least I would default to 價鈿大 or 價鈿貴, and 值銅鈿 isn't necessarily a defined standalone adjective either, compared to something like 吃價鈿 "expensive, valuable".

It also sounds a lot better to me separated e.g. as 值交關銅鈿 "worth a lot of money", and in that sense I also don't necessarily see how it's special as opposed to, say, a phrase like 值鈔票. Musetta6729 (talk) 13:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Just to revive this discussion, I see some ghits for google:"老值銅鈿". I think this kind of shows that it's keepable as an adjective? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

(Pinging @Musetta6729, ND381). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think that still wouldn't really be strong enough evidence since 老值鈔票 is also idiomatic

I'm not against keeping it but I just want to point that out — nd381 (talk) 12:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

^ second this here.

With this in consideration I wouldn't be opposed to keeping the entry either (though maybe as a V/O phrase), and I think the adjective sense should maybe be moved to rfv or have a rfex, if we want to keep it.

Though the phrase is sayable and attestable in Shanghainese (I myself would rarely say it so I don't necessarily have good judgement for how natural it is), what seems like a big problem to me is the (Wu) label. Currently we have many words that are simply tagged as Wu where in reality they are only used in a certain range of Wu varieties. Most of these are fixable fairly quick, but this one doesn't seem very straightforward because there's probably a good range of localities even within Northern Wu for which the adjective sense might not be too natural (especially if they don't use 銅鈿 as a standalone word), and there just doesn't seem to be a good way of testing or certifying that without a good number of attestations from around the place. The word should probably be tagged as Wu either way (and then maybe a following list of descriptors or a usage note), but this would need to come from what we can gather from attestations then. — Musetta6729 (talk) 21:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Per above, tentative keep but add V/O sense and move adjective sense to rfv.

(also if we were to keep 值銅鈿／值铜钿 then this implies that we should probably also create 值鈔票／值钞票 for at least some consistency. which I would be fine with, but it depends on what everyone else thinks) — Musetta6729 (talk) 22:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

日向, 大和, 武蔵, 長門, 金剛

Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Rfd-sense:

(historical) an Ise-class battleship of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II (see Japanese battleship Hyūga on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
大和: a World War II battleship
a battleship of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II (see Japanese battleship Musashi on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
a class of dreadnought battleships in the Imperial Japanese Navy built after World War I ( Nagato-class battleship on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
the lead ship of the pair, known for its participation in Operation Crossroads ( Japanese battleship Nagato on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
(historical) a class of battlecruisers in the Imperial Japanese Navy built before World War I, see Kongō-class battlecruiser on Wikipedia.Wikipedia
(historical) the lead ship of her class, which was rebuilt into a battleship in 1929, see Japanese battleship Kongō on Wikipedia.Wikipedia

Encyclopedic. – Wpi (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi, I see your point about encyclopedic detail.

That said, I think it is still lexically significant and useful information that these terms can be used as ship names.

As an example, what would you think about rewording the Japanese 大和 (Yamato) sense line to something more like what we see in the topmost line at w:Yamato#Ships?

Yamato, several Japanese ships of this name

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete and replace with "names of various battleships" Daniel.z.tg (talk) 05:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete entirely —Fish bowl (talk) 02:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Switching to

Delete for the same reason as my other diff. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 03:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl, @Daniel.z.tg, are you arguing that there is no lexical sense wherein these terms are used as ship names? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think it's not something that should be in the dictionary. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

We have plenty of other entries that basically say "this is a given name", "this is a surname", "this is a place name". Why would "this is a ship name" not be similarly significant lexical information about a given term? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

笑到轆地

Latest comment: 1 year ago19 comments6 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 笑 "to laugh" + 到 "to the extent" + 碌地 "to roll on the floor". – Wpi (talk) 13:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Objection: it does not refer to literally rolling on the floor. —Fish bowl (talk) 05:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Learning towards keep. Are there other constructions that use 到轆地? RcAlex36 (talk) 13:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Keep unless 到轆地 is demonstrably productive. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 10:16, 19 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

~~Delete Neologism calque of ROFL, and I don't know if it will last~~ Daniel.z.tg (talk) 04:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Daniel.z.tg How on earth is this neologism? See the quote from a song that I've just added. – Wpi (talk) 05:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sorry I incorrectly assumed any internet-related slang (and me judging it by the English term is also questionable) would be a neologism. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 06:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

~~Keep because I think this is the etymology of the English term: Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/August#ROFL~~ RFV failed Daniel.z.tg (talk) 06:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Being an etymon of a word in another language does not mean a term had to be kept. – Wpi (talk) 06:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Keep as per the trend of keeping English borrowings/calques into Cantonese. Personally I think those are just code switching unless the meaning is innovative, but keeping this type of entry seems to be the consensus here. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 08:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Just to clarify, this is definitely not code-switching, and it is unclear that this is even from English. It could very well be an independently created phrase. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep per the arguments put forward by others. – Wpi (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

ABC Cantonese-English Comprehensive Dictionary (2021) records 俾人打到碌地 and 痛到碌地 in addition to 笑到碌地. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Comment: I've added some examples to 轆地. -- Ywhy (talk) 12:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ywhy: I'm sure 轆地 is attestable, but are these citations or your own examples? RcAlex36 (talk) 02:46, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36: I adapted these from actual usages. I googled "到轆地 -笑到轆地" and found [打|痛|嚇|玩|開心|激動]到轆地. I suppose [醉|攰] are reasonable too so I improvised one. I was merely suggesting 轆地 is flexible and should not be confined to 笑到轆地. -- Ywhy (talk) 05:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ywhy: While these examples might be fine, it might be a little excessive to come up with our own examples, which are less weighty evidence than usage independently found "in the wild". It would be preferable if we directly added (preferably durably archived) quotes to the entry, especially since it might be contentious. See WT:QUOTE and WT:ATTEST. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:42, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

This rigidity in attestation and quotation is what stiffled creativity and engagement. Cantonese is rapidly wasting away and further bound by rote learning and we imbue no individual thought and style into it. No wonder are there many entries with none examples, for word without context is extinction!

魯迅《狂人日記》：「從來如此，便對麽？」 ― rule rule rule fool fool fool -- Ywhy (talk) 07:40, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Ywhy: I'm not saying you can't create examples, but there should only be enough to illustrate usage. Having quotes that function the same as examples would be preferable because it shows that we aren't making stuff up from thin air. The primary purpose of Wiktionary is documentation and usability, not creativity. The fact that we have so many Cantonese editors actively engaged in editing here shows that Cantonese is not necessarily rapidly wasting away. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

September 2023

衣服

Latest comment: 2 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: “to put on clothes”. SoP: 衣 (yì, “to wear”) + 服 (fú, “clothes”). Mcph2 (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete as SoP but remember to Move its quotation to 衣. -- Ywhy (talk) 15:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep per WT:LEMMING since it's in 漢語大詞典. Also it would be good to have this juxtaposed against the more common pronunciation 1. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep per Justin. – wpi (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD kept. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

October 2023

失ウ, 失フ, ウシナウ, ウシナフ, +relevant item at ushinau#Romanization

Latest comment: 11 months ago15 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. Katakana was used predominantly before the modern era in some genres of text (w:Meiji Constitution, etc.) in the same way that hiragana is today, so attestation is not the issue. Rather, I doubt that recording these is meaningful, as it would apply to essentially every native word in the language, and the search function is capable of finding words in either hiragana or katakana. —Fish bowl (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: I came across 失(ウシナ)フ (ushinafu) in w:Talk:Historical kana orthography#Some things I can think of., referring to the Shōwa Emperor's use of it in the 1945 玉(ぎょく)音(おん)放(ほう)送(そう) (Gyokuon-hōsō, “Jewel Voice Broadcast”) (see File:ImperialSurrenderRescript.jpg, central block, column 12, characters 8–9). I searched for it on the English Wiktionary. It didn't come up, despite the fact that both 失う and うしなふ (but, perhaps crucially, not 失ふ) already existed. I'm not all that bothered whether these specific katakana forms stay, but it should be considered whether removing them and others like them helps or hinders someone running across such terms who wants to know what they mean, as I did. 0DF (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: Could you explain what the problem is with having entries for these forms with katakana where we would normally find hiragana, please? 0DF (talk) 10:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be an unnecessary proliferation of entries ("apply to essentially every native word in the language"). —Fish bowl (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: Thanks for responding.
I'd like to rebut your earlier assertion that "the search function is capable of finding words in either hiragana or katakana", by which I took you to mean that the search function finds hiragana terms given katakana queries and vice versa: Whilst working on the quotation at Citations:失フ, I searched for クシ (kushi), which didn't and still doesn't exist in the English Wiktionary; the search box's shortlist for that query currently comprises (in order) クシノマヴロ (kushinomavro), クシー (kushī), クシャクシャ (kushakusha), クジラ (kujira), クジャク (kujaku), and グジャグジャ (gujaguja); くし (kushi) exists, but isn't shortlisted. IMO, the shortlist for a katakana query should give, in priority order: 1) the katakana term that exactly matches the query; 2) the katakana term(s) that differ(s) from the query by the addition or removal of one or more 濁(だく)点(てん) (dakuten) and/or 半(はん)濁(だく)点(てん) (handakuten), and/or by variation in kana size relating to 促(そく)音(おん) (sokuon) and/or 拗(よう)音(おん) (yōon); 3) the hiragana term that is the exact equivalent of the katakana query; 4) the hiragana term(s) that differ(s) from the katakana query in the same manner as that described in point 2, with the added qualification that it or they be the hiragana equivalent(s). (And, of course, the shortlist for a hiragana query should give the same results re hiragana and katakana terms, mutatis mutandis.) Insofar as the search box doesn't prioritise other-kana equivalents in its shortlists (in the same way that it does prioritise letter-case equivalents for Latin-script queries), having entries for other-kana equivalent terms has greater utility. I would say that that utility outweighs the drawback of entry-proliferation.
Besides that, there is the matter of consistency: Why, if they're unnecessary, do entries exist for クシャクシャ (kushakusha) and グジャグジャ (gujaguja), the katakana equivalents of the hiragana くしゃくしゃ (kushakusha, “crumpled, wrinkled, disheveled”) and ぐじゃぐじゃ (gujaguja, “soggy, soaking”)? Why does 孔雀 (“peafowl”) have both くじゃく (kujaku) and クジャク (kujaku)? And why does 鯨 (“whale”) have くじら (kujira), クジラ (kujira), and the historical くぢら (kudira), but not the historical クヂラ (kudira)? It is a remarkable coincidence that I should find four unnecessarily proliferated kana entries from the six-entry shortlist yielded by a single katakana query.
Is there a clearly stated policy on this matter somewhere? 0DF (talk) 14:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

How did you search?

If I use the full search feature to look for katakana クシ, as at https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?search=%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1, I get くし in hiragana as my second hit.

Different approaches to searching will produce different results, unfortunately.

The sorting of alternative hits that you describe (starting from "IMO") relies upon collation settings that, if memory serves, are not entirely within our control as Witkionary editors -- for that, I think we need to get help from the WikiMedia folks, and they have not always been generous with their time when it comes to Wiktionary.

As for "why ... do [katakana] entries exist" for equivalent hiragana ones, that often comes down to the simple fact that this is an open wiki, with many participating editors who are not familiar with (or sometimes don't agree with) our various practices and policies. If you peruse the user contributions of the editor who created the クシャクシャ entry, you'll see that they spent a lot of time and effort creating these alternative-from entries as stubs using {{ja-see}} to refer readers to the "main" entries. I have no details as to their motivation for doing so.

Re: "Is there a clearly stated policy on this matter somewhere?", I presume you're asking if there's a policy on including katakana-only entries? The closest I can think of is a general practice to only have lower-case entries for English terms, at least for those that aren't proper nouns or for some reason otherwise usually written with special capitalization. Even that is only a practice, as best I can find at the moment -- I see nothing in WT:ELE or WT:CFI that specifically says "don't create entries like PEACOCK" (which is essentially not too different from what we have at クジャク). The rule of thumb for languages using the Latin alphabet appears to be, "only create entries for a specific capitalized form if there is a solid lexical reason for doing so."

For Japanese, we generally don't have any solid lexical reason for creating katakana-only entries, so our modus operandi has been to not create these. There is no hard and fast prohibition against creating katakana-only entries, as mentioned at Wiktionary:About_Japanese#Considerations_about_Japanese_language_entries, but these may be viewed as cruft by the Japanese-language editors here (including me, for many such entries), and if there is no clear reason for these to exist on usability-related or lexical grounds, they might be removed -- as this thread is discussing.

In most cases, it looks to me like users create katakana-only entries simply because the underlying MediaWiki software platform is, frankly, not all that good at properly handling Japanese text. See the third paragraph above in this very post. This is a large part of why we have such "unnecessarily proliferated kana entries". If the MediaWiki folk were serious about supporting Wiktionary, and serious about supporting all the languages we work with, most (all?) of the issues you bring up would vanish.

----

Separately, about the main point in this thread that @Fish bowl brought up, our basic standard for creating Japanese entries is outlined at Wiktionary:About_Japanese, specifically in the #Lemma_entries section:

As a general rule, the most common spelling is considered the lemma.

In modern usage, particles and verb conjugation endings are all written in hiragana. As such, we should have an entry at 失ふ (using hiragana for the okurigana), but not at 失フ. Any historical citations of spellings using katakana should go on the citations page for the form using hiragana.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

We definitely do have variant-script versions of Japanese words. I think the policy should be attestation: if we can find 3 qualifying citations for a term written in unusual orthography, where the entire passage is not written in such orthography, then it should be included. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Three is a vanishingly small number for a well-attested language like Japanese. Especially if we include manga in the scope of any such search, given that manga authors are famously / notoriously flexible in their spellings. Let alone the simple fact that katakana was the de facto "main" kana variety for governmental and other official texts from the Meiji period up through the end of WWII.

Again, the hiragana / katakana distinction in Japanese is analogous to the lower-case / upper-case distinction for Latin-alphabet text. I notice we have no entry at [[SONY]], for instance, despite that company's use of the all-caps spelling on its website and products. Similarly, we don't have any entry at [[アラス]] (the diacritic-less katakana rendering of 非ず (arazu, “there isn't”)), despite this particular spelling's use in the Japanese text of the script of the proclamation of surrender made by Emperor Hirohito.

I maintain that, if a term's katakana spelling is not lexically significant (with the possible exception of discoverability / usability concerns, as I outlined earlier in this thread), I don't think it merits inclusion. Just like how [[PEACOCK]] is not lexically significant, and does not merit inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: Thanks for your long comment. You've given me much to think about. As a resolution to this particular case, what do you think about using redirects? 失ウ would redirect to 失う、失フ would redirect to 失ふ、 ウシナウ would redirect to うしなう、 and ウシナフ would redirect to うしなふ (the katakana sense at ushinau would simply be deleted). What do you think of that as a solution? 0DF (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@0DF, I am mildly concerned about the potential for unintended behavior, and the maintenance overhead of keeping track of entries like this. That said, I am open to the idea of redirects, if other editors are also amenable. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Katakana being the default kana variety in Meiji-era Japan does not address my point, because I've explicitly excluded the case where the entire passage uses unusual orthography by modern standards. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@King of Hearts, the question remains, are these alternative spellings like 失ウ demonstrably lexically significant? Or are these the functional equivalent of all-caps spellings of regular English terms like [[PEACOCK]]? Until and unless we can show lexical significance, or there is a compelling technical reason (such as the usability and discoverability issues outlined above), we have no grounds for creating entries for such katakana spellings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

If PEACOCK appears 3 separate times, each in the course of otherwise normally capitalized English text, then yes I would include it as an alternate spelling. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Is there any lexical significance in that alternate spelling? If not, and the only difference is capitalization (or swapping hiragana / katakana), then the behavior should be an automatic redirection to the correct variant. This is already laid out at Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Entry_name:

If someone tries to access the entry with incorrect capitalization, the software will try to redirect to the correct page automatically.

Indeed, if we browse to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEACOCK, the system redirects us to the entry at [[peacock]]. The fact that the system currently does not do that for spellings like https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/カワル, which should redirect to [[かわる]], is a failure of configuration. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Totally agree. Shen233 (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

November 2023

All Ryukyuan romanisation entries

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Category:Okinawan romanizations - 117 entries
Category:Kunigami romanizations - 72 entries
Category:Kikai romanizations - 5 entries
Category:Yonaguni romanizations - 2 entries

In short, these entries don't make sense. There are no official or widely agreed-upon systems for romanising any of the Ryukyuan languages, and as far as I can tell, our current transliterations don't follow any of the systems that do exist.

The only reason these were created is because the Japonic modules were written with Japanese in mind (which does link transliterations), and these hard-coded links remained in place when the modules were expanded to account for the Ryukyuan languages. Unfortunately, some people then decided to waste their time by creating romaji entries based on these links, despite the fact that in many cases they're not very good (e.g. あち (achi) should probably be romanised as 'achi ('achi), due to the initial glottal stop).

The vast majority of languages don't have entries for romanisations, including major languages like Korean, and those that do follow widely-known, established systems like Pinyin or Hepburn. That certainly doesn't apply here, so let's get rid. Theknightwho (talk) 23:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete all. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:43, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

While most of what you say makes sense, you're oversimplifying the history, given edits like this, this, this and this. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, hmm, for mijiushi and mutu, the first is arguably problematic.

みじうし#Okinawan is romanized in our entry as mijiushi. JLect instead renders this as miji'ushi or mijiqushi.

Separately, as described in the JA WP at w:ja:沖縄方言の表記体系#基本音節と開拗音, orthographies for the Ryukyuan languages are not entirely settled, even in kana. There's an argument to be made that this same term above should be written in kana as みじ'うし instead.

We (the EN Wikt editor community) need to figure out what standards we are using -- for both kana and Latin characters, and clearly document that somewhere easily discoverable -- before we do much more to build out our coverage for these languages. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete, but the romanisation module needs to be fixed to reflect the correct romanisation that would be reflective of the actual phonology, as many of them are currently inaccurate/wrong after TKW started to convert them to use the new module. Hold for Okinawan as that seems to have some non-kana writing (there was a Latin script spelling of 沖縄 but I forgot which page it is). – wpi (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi That's not down to me - Huhu9001 did the current transliteration module. I simply moved the code around. Theknightwho (talk) 14:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

사실은

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Sum of parts. 사실 (sasil, “actually”) + 은 (-eun, topic marker).--Saranamd (talk) 12:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

No opposition towards deletion as the entry creator. However, the broadly analogous 実は#Japanese is in monolingual dictionaries (https://www.weblio.jp/content/実は). Is there a clear difference as to why 사실은 isn't? —Fish bowl (talk) 02:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

If you mean the Japanese adverb "実は", it is similar to the Korean word "사실" or "실은", not "사실은". So, the Korean entry "사실은" should be moved to "실은". Dubukimchi (talk) 08:29, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

December 2023

马伯乐

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese.

# a Chinese name used by French Sinologist Henri Maspero (1883-1945).
# a translation of French surname Maspero.

WT:NAMES

—Fish bowl (talk) 02:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think the surname sense is keepable if attested for more than one Maspero, though moved to 馬伯樂? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Changed to RFD-sense for the first sense (I vote Delete) and RFV-sense for the second sense. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

커먼

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Tagged by 157.65.230.118. I couldn't find any words for "커먼" in the Standard Korean Language Dictionary. And according to the CBD-CHM Korea, "callithrix jacchus" (common marmoset) is officially called "마모셋원숭이" in Korean. --Dubukimchi (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Send to RFV It appears to be a problem of insufficient attestation.廣九直通車 (talk) 05:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

January 2024

久治良

Latest comment: 11 months ago6 comments2 people in discussion

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Mcph2): can we have a conensus for lemmatizing old japanese entries? I prefer no okurigana, and only manyogana variants if the term isn't attested semantically in WOJ (e.g. 許呂佐; lemmatize as ko2ro2s- regardless of conjugation) Chuterix (talk) 02:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Old Japanese spellings in man'yōgana are so variable that I don't think we should create lemma entries at any man'yōgana spelling. Instead, I think we should formalize our EN Wikt approach to romanizations for Old Japanese (particularly with regard to the as-yet-uncertain vowel variants marked in many materials as /i₁, i₂, e₁, e₂, o₁, o₂/), and use the romanized spellings for our Old Japanese entries.

→ I am personally a fan of using the subscript numerals as above, as this distinguishes the vowel values without making any implicit or explicit judgment on how these were actually pronounced. That said, I recognize that it is not obvious how to input these for many people's keyboard layouts, and I am open to argument for some other notation.

I am perfectly happy for there to be soft-redirect entries for the various and sundry attestable man'yōgana spellings for any given term, provided that the main lemma entry is at a standardized spelling -- which, as far as I can think this through, would have to be a romanization.

I am opposed to creating entries at truncated root forms like ko2ro2s-. No reference that I am aware of collates verbs using truncated roots; they all use the terminal / predicative for Old Japanese, same as for modern Japanese. We know what the terminal / predicative form of Old Japanese verbs would be even for those verbs where we don't have attestations of such conjugations (such as /ko₂ro₂su/ for the 許呂佐 example above), so we should follow the principle of least surprise and use these for our lemmata. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Old languages are surprising in at least one way.

Perhaps we could input them as normal ASCII numbers, like a sample ko2ro2s-. This is like how we see a romanization link like Mandarin mi3 (Pinyin (numbered tone) reading of 米 (mǐ, “rice”)). Then, it could be sufficent that way. What do you think? Chuterix (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've created page User:Chuterix/Comparison of A and B type romanizations in Old Japanese. Expansions will occur on this page. The index notation will be used for the principle of least surprise.

Also yeah; how the heck anyone is supposed to type subscript numbers like this? Chuterix (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Western linguists often use the truncated root form for yodan verbs, and renyokei for nidan/ichidan. Vovin, Pellard, Frellesvig, etc. See ONCOJ dictionary here Chuterix (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

That may well be, but outside of such niche academic contexts (which includes ONCOJ's morphological analysis), every dictionary I've seen uses the terminal / predicative form for verbs as the lemma. I recommend that we do the same. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

ko2ro2su

Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

See Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/CJK#久治良 Chuterix (talk) 00:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

That discussion is still ongoing, and we have not achieved consensus. Given my current read of that thread, ko2ro2su would indeed be one of the proposed forms for the Old Japanese lemma.

We should hold off on any RFD of this term until the discussion about how to lemmatize Old Japanese has been resolved. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

February 2024

写真写りがいい

Latest comment: 29 days ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Defined as "photogenic"; is a phrase that literally translates as "reflection/appearance in photographs is good". @Frj9. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ya, I think this is a naive entry, possibly inspired by other bilingual resources that might include otherwise-SOP terms and phrases as translations. See, for instance, the EJ ↔ JE Weblio entry here, and the corresponding lack of any such entry in the monolingual Japanese Weblio here.

Looks like the same user added this as the translation at English photogenic. I have no objection to including this as a translation in our table there, but it should be clearly broken down into its components -- as Japanese, 写真写りがいい (shashin utsuri ga ii) is an SOP phrase (actually an entire grammatical sentence), and this literally breaks down to 写真 (shashin, “photo”) + 写り (utsuri, “appearance in something, as an image”, from verb 写る (utsuru, “to appear in something as an image”), our entry is currently defective) + が (ga, subject particle) + いい (ii, “good”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:58, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Maybe rename to 写真写り? I feel like 写真写り can be considered idiomatic. Photographic devices can be said to have good or bad 写り, as in 写りのいいレンズ, as well as subjects. 写真写り's usage seems narrower - I believe it's only used for subjects of photography, such as people. We could explain that in 写り, if not in a separate entry for 写真写り, though. Whym (talk) 03:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'd be in favor of moving this page to 写真写り and adding ...がいい as a collocation there. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

法租界

Latest comment: 4 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SOP of 法 (“French”) + 租界 (zūjiè, “concession”). If this is allowed, then should we have other terms like 英租界 (yīng zūjiè, “British concession”) or 日租界 (“Japanese concession”)?廣九直通車 (talk) 04:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete unless it saw use as a proper noun, but it seems to mostly exist as a component of proper nouns: 上海法租界, 廣州法租界 etc. Theknightwho (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

无印良品称“法租界” 引网友不满：醒醒上海没租界了 --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is a RFD discussion alleging SoP instead of the RFV one, so I don't think more quote without illustrating idiomatic meanings will work.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

March 2024

リュキュ

Latest comment: 9 months ago9 comments2 people in discussion

Ainu. The term リュキュ (ryukyu) cannot be seen in real texts and has no historical probability. The word itself is also phonologically invalid in Ainu, which if valid would be リユキユ (riyukiyu) without the palatalization (no CyV in Ainu, all CyV would become Ci.yV such as Kiyo for Kyo=Kyoto, and Tokiyo for Tokyo). Ōta Mitsuru has coined ルチュ (Rucu) for Ryukyu based on Ryukyuian pronouciation) in his 和愛辞典. This リュキュ (ryukyu) can be seen as coinage most likely from a English or Japanese speaker without enough Ainu knowledge. So I would suggest the deletion. Mkpoli (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

As you note, this is historically improbable, as the population of Ainu speakers in Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and other northern islands would not have had much contact with anyone talking about the Ryūkyū islands.

This might alternatively be a modern borrowing into Ainu, which could also account for the palatal glide.

That said, we would need evidence that this is actually used by Ainu speakers. My limited resources (mostly from The Foundation for Ainu Culture) don't include this term, to the best of my searching abilities. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

リンゴ

Unsure what the nominator intends for リンゴ (ringo, “apple”). Batchelor recorded it as an Ainu borrowing from Japanese, in the 1905 second edition of his Ainu-English-Japanese Dictionary, as we can see here in the scanned version available via Archive.org.

We also see the word spelled in hiragana as りんご in running Ainu text, as on page 77 of this intermediate-level teaching text for Chitose-dialect Ainu. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your evidence. リンゴ seems to somewhat in used, although Batchelor's dictionary is infamous of its accuracy, and for the modern usage it is difficult to determine if it is code-switching or proper borrowing. In late 20th century, almost all (if not all) Ainu speakers are bilingual, so it's probable if the Japanese term with a voiced plosive ('g') is borrowed with that as a marginal phone. Anyway, I would like to withdraw my request for リンゴ for now. Although it should be disscused if the Hiragana form should be used. -- Mkpoli (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

ロソク

Ainu. Same as リュキュ (ryukyu) although with valid phonology, without attestation and any support in dictionaries.

There is an entry in М. М. Добротворски's dictionary refering to 蝋燭 (osoku) Mkpoli (talk) 08:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I mis-clicked the Send button. There is a entry, but the Aynu term is Ratchako instead [21]. There is no direct usage of rosoku. Mkpoli (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Batchelor recorded ロソク (rosoku, “candle”) on page 380 of his dictionary here. Meanwhile, per Batchelor's other entry here, ラッチャコ (ratchako) means "lamp", not "candle".

@Mkpoli, I cannot find any instance of either ラッチャコ or ratchako in your linked PDF. That file apparently spans pages 227 to 273. Could you explain where you found the term in the file? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr Útlendi, sorry I put the wrong link there. The correct one is here: M.M.ドブロトゥヴォールスキーのアイヌ語・ロシア語辞典(19). It says:

Рачако. Мос. лампа (отъ Яп. росоку, или рассоку,
свѣча), фонарь, (отъ Яп. (ラ
ツ
シ
ヨ
ク) рассіоку, восковая свѣча).

and translated as:

Ratchako. Mos. ランプ（日本語の rosoku, あるいは rassoku「ろうそく」から），灯火，
（日本語の（ラツシヨク）rassioku「ろうそく」から）．

-- Mkpoli (talk) 11:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, interesting. There is a Japanese reading rassoku for the modern term rōsoku (蝋燭). I can find suggestions that 蝋燭 might rarely have been pronounced as rōshoku, so while I cannot find evidence of any rasshoku pronunciation, it is plausible enough to suppose that this might have existed.

However, it seems less plausible to me for Japanese rassoku or rasshoku to become Ainu ratchaku — how and why would the medial consonant /sː/ or /ʃː/ fortify to become /tʃː/? Ainu has a native /sː/ phone. And how and why would the second vowel /o/ become /a/? These are contrastive in both Japanese and Ainu.

Separately, I note on page 73 of the PDF that the authors record Ainu terms rosoku and rósugu as borrowings from Japanese rōsoku. These are much more straightforward.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

문재앙

Latest comment: 8 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

There seems to be no need to create a word with a derogatory meaning toward the President of the Republic of Korea. --YeBoy371 (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

So, by your reasoning, we shouldn't have entries for derogatory terms for the former President of the US, but we have Mango Mussolini (among others that I couldn't bother finding). Take this to WT:RFVCJK if you have doubts about its existence instead. ItMarki (talk) 16:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

google:문재앙 yields 1.22 million ostensible hits, including news publications like this one or even government websites like this one.

We (the English Wiktionary editor community) have not created this word. We are simply documenting its existence, and lexicographically significant details like meaning and derivation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Send to RFV instead, and note the requirement for WT:DEROGATORY also.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

okinawa

Latest comment: 9 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Wrong kana and proper entries Okinawa and chōkaku already exist Ythede Gengo (talk) 15:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ultimately reworked to point to the correct entry: note that there are two common (as in, "not proper") nouns romanized as okinawa. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

敵

Latest comment: 4 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Rfd-sense: "revenge, vengeance". Submitted by an ephemeral IP user.

親の敵: the murderer/humiliator of one's parent;

妹の仇: the violator of one's sister; (the nature of grievance is unspecified)

The correct sense is actually "enemy". Whether vengeance would be exacted is contingent on the context. -- Ywhy (talk) 09:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

(This would appear to be User:Fumiko Take, FWIW. —Fish bowl (talk) 03:53, 30 March 2024 (UTC))Reply

The edit in question was this one from Feb 28, 2021. Sure looks like Fumiko.

Looking more deeply now, I can't confirm this sense in any of the references I have access to, such as the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten entry here at Kotobank, or the Daijisen entry here at Weblio (both in Japanese). In the context of the quote added by the anon, the "enemy" sense still fits. I suspect the "revenge" sense is a mistake, due either to the anon misunderstanding a Japanese text, or reading a mistaken translation.

(FWIW, I'm sorry I didn't dig deeper earlier.)

Barring any native speakers chiming in to confirm any "vengeance" sense, I'd say delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it seems like a misunderstanding. I would imagine this comes from reanalysis of phrases such as かたき（敵／仇）を取る, which can be translated 'take vengeance [on someone]', and might motivate one to analyze 取る='take' and かたき='vengeance', superficially. However, I believe 取る here rather means 'kill' more explicitly (and thus かたき simply means 'enemy'). The usage of 取る in that sense is rare nowadays, but it's not strange to see it lives on in idioms. Compare with かたきを討つ which means basically the same, suggesting 取る=討つ in these idioms. Whym (talk) 03:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

大日本帝国陸軍

Latest comment: 29 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 大日本帝国 (Dainippon Teikoku, “Empire of Japan”) + 陸軍 (rikugun, “army”). Also cf. reasons for WT:RFDE#People's Liberation Army Navy.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

大日本帝国海軍

Latest comment: 29 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 大日本帝国 (Dainippon Teikoku, “Empire of Japan”) + 海軍 (kaigun, “navy”). Also cf. reasons for WT:RFDE#People's Liberation Army Navy.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

April 2024

塳文化亞東

Latest comment: 8 months ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Vietnamese, tagged but not listed with comment “Ad hoc construction from known elements”. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

塳文化𡨸漢

Same. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

塳文化東亞

Same. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Probably an RFV issue? 沈澄心 ✉ 12:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think @PhanAnh123 means we shouldn’t include multiword phrases in Hán–Nôm, as the separate parts can be looked up. I certainly agree with the sentiment, but we don’t yet have policy on this. If this passes here, I’ll nominate it for verification. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

dou3-2, waa6-2, kiu4-2, dek6-2

Latest comment: 8 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Cantonese Jyutping transcription for morphemes with a changed tone (3→2). Do we want this? This feels like it is entering "word" territory, and we do not have Jyutping entries for compound words. —Fish bowl (talk) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete. I wonder if we should redirect these to dou2, waa2, kiu2, dek2 and have the links in {{zh-pron}} point there as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Same view as Justin. – wpi (talk) 06:15, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

都市計画税

Latest comment: 3 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 都市計画 (toshi keikaku, “urban planning”) + 税 (zei, “tax”). Do we need to create other entries of different kind of Japanese taxation, for which a number of them are SoP?廣九直通車 (talk) 09:40, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Crikey, no! 😄 I don't think there's any utility in adding SOP entries for all the umpteen kinds of 税 (zei, “tax”).

SOP, delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

WT:LEMMING: included in Digital Daijisen? —Fish bowl (talk) 03:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

If 消費税 and 所得税 are fine, and 都市計画税 and 自動車重量税 are not, what is the difference? Whether they have counterparts in other countries (and Wiktionary wants to document the well-known translations)? Whym (talk) 10:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

My thought: (1) because the former two are widely levied worldwide while the latter two is not, and (2) we have English entries for them; such that the relevant English entries (goods and services tax; income tax) would survive as translation hubs?廣九直通車 (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

한겨레

Latest comment: 7 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Korean. Rfd-sense:

''{{w|The Hankyoreh}}'', a [[daily]] [[newspaper]] in [[South Korea]]

Encyclopedic; WT:COMPANY / WT:BRAND? —Fish bowl (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

June 2024

獨立國

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese, SoP of 獨立 / 独立 (dúlì, “independent”) + 國 / 国 (guó, “state”).

Unlike other terms like 共和國 / 共和国 (gònghéguó, “republic”) or 王國 / 王国 (wángguó, “kingdom”) that signifies a country's form of government, the term is pretty much of a declaratory title used by all sorts of countries from Papua New Guinea (Independent State of Papua New Guinea) to Fascist Croatia (Independent State of Croatia).廣九直通車 (talk) 09:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's literally the fourth word of the Korean Declaration of Independence. Delete the Chinese part if you must, but it's a Pan-Asian term.--Aquatiki (talk) 02:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

樹莓派

Latest comment: 5 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese.

===Proper noun===
{{head|zh|noun}}

# Raspberry Pi (computer).

WT:BRAND —Fish bowl (talk) 02:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia says "Pi" in Raspberry Pi is a reference to the Python programming language, so maybe we should keep this translation. In China, the "Pi" has therefore been used for lots of similar development boards like Orange Pi. Also, the name might be confused with the actual raspberry pie dessert, which has happened in Chinese Raspberry Pi communities before — they sometimes gets posts from raspberry farmers. 内存溢出的猫 (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

July 2024

国会

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese, various country-specific senses for their national legislatures, including:

the National Diet (Japan's bicameral legislature)
the Cortes Generales (Spain's bicameral legislature)
the Parliament (France's bicameral legislature; Sri Lanka's and Singapore's unicameral legislature)
the House of Nation (Bangladesh's unicameral legislature)
the National Assembly (South Korea's unicameral legislature)
the National Assembly (Vietnam's unicameral legislature)

These country-specific senses are clearly encyclopedic, should be retained for Wikipedia, and violates WT:CFI#Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia. This is just like we will not include senses like "the Parliament (Britain's bicameral legislature)" in parliament (and even in Parliament we only mentioned especially while do not list every national legislatures called parliament).廣九直通車 (talk) 10:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Agreed that the Japanese 国会 entry is a mess: the various "Etymology" sections are mistakes, as this is the same Middle-Chinese-derived Japanese term 国会 (kokkai) in each instance, with the same Middle-Chinese derivation. There was no borrowing from Korean or Vietnamese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would delete all of the legislature proper noun senses, with the possible exception of National Diet. That one seems to me to be the most common referent of the word, though that might be a pragmatic rather than a lexical fact. Cnilep (talk) 00:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Japanese terms of 訪X

Latest comment: 3 months ago6 comments3 people in discussion

訪日 (hōnichi)
訪英 (hōei)
訪露 (hōro)
訪韓 (hōkan)
訪朝 (hōchō)
訪台 (hōtai)
訪仏 (hōfutsu)
訪米 (hōbei)
訪欧 (hōō)
訪独 (hōdoku)
訪中 (hōchū)
訪米 (hōbei)

All Japanese terms. Clear SoP of 訪 (hō, “visit”) + the corresponding abbreviations of various countries and territories. Also cf. the reasons given in #Chinese terms of 訪X.廣九直通車 (talk) 10:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

While I understand the Chinese case, the Japanese case might be more tricky because of how formal/literary these compounds are. 訪(ほう)日(にち) (hōnichi) for one is found in goo, a monolingual dictionary. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Are there more dictionary entries? After all WT:LEMMING is not automatically applied whenever there is entries in third-party dictionaries.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. 訪(ほう) (hō) is neither a word nor an affix and from what I know, WT:SOP has never applied to pure kanji compounds. This doesn't mean that we have to include any kanji string; words like 試験問題 are SOP because they are transparent compounds of words, not kanji.

Moreover, these entries serve to inform readers about the correct pitch accent, if nothing else. Unlike affixed constructions or compounds of words, kanji compounds don't have predictable pitch accent. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 18:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

But then, it can also be argued that the previous batch of Chinese terms deletion could tell others of the Chinese pronunciation, isn't it?廣九直通車 (talk) 07:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@廣九直通車: From what little Chinese I know, the situation doesn't seem to be analogous: The Chinese pronunciation is always predictably derivable from the parts which is not true for Japanese. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

방한

Latest comment: 3 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Korean, SoP of 방(訪) (bang, “visit”) + 한(韓) (Han, “Korea”). Also cf. the reasons given in #Chinese terms of 訪X.廣九直通車 (talk) 10:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

방한하다 (banghanhada, “to visit Korea”) is also nominated as the verb form of the term, for the same reasons.廣九直通車 (talk) 10:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Similar to the Japanese case, 방한 (訪韓) is found in naver, a monolingual dictionary. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Cf. my comments at #Japanese terms of 訪X, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Strong Keep. Clear compound and is found in monolingual and also learner's dictionaries. AG202 (talk) 15:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

결사옹위

Latest comment: 4 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Korean, SoP of 결사(決死) (gyeolsa, “being desperate resolute with one's life”) + 옹위(擁衛) (ong'wi, “to support and defend”). Might mention as an usage example in the entries though.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

August 2024

八角楓科

Latest comment: 4 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 八角楓 Alangium/Alangiaceae + 科 family. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

September 2024

點賣

Latest comment: 3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 點 "how" + 賣 "sell" = "how is this sold?" It's not just about the price, but it could also be whether it's sold in batches, by weight, etc. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:39, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oppose. It could be considered one of the phrases in the phrasebook. Mahogany115 (talk) 22:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

制圧下

Latest comment: 29 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese.

# under [[oppression]]

WT:SOP: 制圧 + 下, cf. collocations at [22] such as 騒音下の in noisy conditions, 高応力下の highly stressed, 還元性環境下の under a reducing environment《化学》. —Fish bowl (talk) 03:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Cnilep (talk) 05:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Can be converted to a {{coi}}. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

ざんねんでした

Latest comment: 29 days ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese.

Added by an anonymous user in 2017. SoP: the sum of 残念 and でした, preterite of です, “it was regretful / regrettable”. Cnilep (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. —Fish bowl (talk) 01:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

zannen deshita

Same as above. 01:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Delete. Cnilep (talk) 05:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

龜跤趖出來

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Analyzable as 龜跤 / 龟跤+趖 (suō)+出來 / 出来 (chūlái), although this phrase is included in Taiwan MOE's dictionary.--Mahogany115 (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

October 2024

光復香港、時代革命

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP/encyclopedic. Moved from WT:RFVCJK. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

開水

Latest comment: 2 months ago6 comments2 people in discussion

Discussion moved from WT:Requests for verification/CJK#開水.

Chinese. RfV Sense: "(Wu) to boil water". This is not found as a Verb-Object phrase in most northern Wu varieties checked so far, rather only glossed as "boiled water" instead. Musetta6729 (talk) 09:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Musetta6729: 上海话大词典, p. 70: "㊁ k‘ᴇ₄₄ sɿ₃₄ 水烧开了：～了水开了。" — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think this entry should maybe be rephrased then, and I would even go so far to say it might be SoP.

This would mean not "to boil water" but "(of water) to be boiling" in Shanghainese.

It would be analogous to something like 水開了 but in a 王冕死了父親-esque word order, and seeing that stuff like 水開 or 水滾 aren't entries I'm not sure if this warrants an entry either. I would argue 開水了 isn't even a very common word order in Shanghainese - Qian could have put the alternative meaning in to clarify on the potential impact that using LPS or RPS can have on how the phrase is interpreted. Musetta6729 (talk) 02:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Musetta6729: Should this be moved to RFD then, since it's a SoP issue? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung Sure - that sounds reasonable. — Musetta6729 (talk) 10:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "(Wu) to boil water". Moved from RFV (see discussion copied over above). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

帶等

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 帶 ("lead", verb) + 等 (progressive particle). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

當牛

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 當 "very" + 牛 "naughty". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

蓋牛

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 蓋 "very" + 牛 "naughty". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

煙花

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "Name of several typhoons: 1. In-fa (JTWC WP272015); Marilyn 2. In-fa (JTWC WP092021); Fabian". Should we be including names of typhoons? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Based on Talk:Ernesto#RFD discussion: August 2021–July 2022, I believe we could have important typhoons like 溫黛 / 温黛 or 山竹 (shānzhú), but insignficant ones like 煙花 / 烟花 (yānhuā) should be deleted. – wpi (talk) 12:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

November 2024

亂嗮龍

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. 亂龍 + 嗮. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete, but I wonder if 亂嗮大龍 should be kept. – wpi (talk) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep/redirect/{{alt form}}? It seems to be included in 廣州方言詞典 by 白宛如 [23] [24] and has a stub entry in words.hk. —Fish bowl (talk) 23:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

初次見面

Latest comment: 9 days ago7 comments5 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 初次 (chūcì) + 見面／见面 (jiànmiàn). RcAlex36 (talk) 02:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Yes, it's an SoP but it's a phrase. Used in Pleco and some other dictionaries. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep Good to be retained as a phrasebook collection.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete. I don't think it's an idiomatic usage that has any phrasebook worthiness. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep the phrase PoS as a phrasebook entry, delete the verb PoS due to being SoP. – wpi (talk) 16:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The phrase sense has been cited. Added {{&lit|zh|初次|見面}} on the verb sense. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:01, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is RFD, not RFV, so there's no need to cite the word. – wpi (talk) 09:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

番茄炒蛋

Latest comment: 2 days ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese, SoP of 番茄 (fānqié, “tomato”) + 炒蛋 (chǎodàn, “scrambled eggs”). Nothing idiomatic to require a separate entry.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also note that I spared 番茄煮蛋 (fānqié zhǔdàn), as I consider "煮蛋 (zhǔ dàn)" to be idiomatic: it does not hint others that the cuisine is in fact stir-fried.

Weak keep. It would be weird to just keep 番茄煮蛋. Also 番茄炒蛋 is in Guoyu Cidian, so WT:LEMMING. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep per WT:FRIED. This is actually stir-fried tomato and scrambled eggs where the tomatoes are added after the eggs are cooked, as opposed to scrambled eggs with tomato where the tomatoes are added into the uncooked eggs. – wpi (talk) 12:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

西紅柿炒雞蛋

Chinese, SoP of 西紅柿 / 西红柿 (xīhóngshì, “tomato”) + 炒 (chǎo, “scrambled; fry”) + 雞蛋 / 鸡蛋 (jīdàn, “eggs”).廣九直通車 (talk) 04:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep. Even though it is sort of SoP, it is a well-known home dish. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD kept for both. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

一失足成千古風流人物

Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Sounds whimsical and humorous enough but can this reckoned to be a word and be included in Wiktionary? In my personal judgment, it is but a neologism-blend taken from classical poems, although not entirely meaningless still no need to be included at all. If this is passed, can I say like 黄河之水天上来，飞入寻常百姓家 eligible to get included as well? Thingamajig related to 黃泛區／黄泛区 (Huángfànqū), coined of the same kidney. This is my first time adding topic here so I really look forward to other editorial opinions. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

自於

Latest comment: 2 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. Sum of parts. Not a 词, but two 字 put together. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. The examples given are usually parsed as 來自 + 於, 源自 + 於, 出自 + 於. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete —Fish bowl (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

救火个物件

Latest comment: 2 days ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese (Penang Hokkien). SoP: 救火 + 个 + 物件 = thing that extinguishes fire. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete but keep in entries as a synonym? —Fish bowl (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure how this term was elicited, but it seems kind of ad hoc and I feel like it can refer to anything used to extinguish fire, not just a fire extinguisher specifically. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:43, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

做政府工个

Latest comment: 2 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese (Penang Hokkien). SoP: 做 + 政府 + 工 + 个 = someone who does a government job. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete but keep in entries as a synonym? —Fish bowl (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. I took it out of the thesaurus - I don't think it's worth keeping there. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:45, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

兵个衫

Latest comment: 2 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese (Penang Hokkien). SoP: 兵 + 个 + 衫 = soldier's clothes. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete but keep in entries as a synonym? —Fish bowl (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. Kept in the entry 軍服 as a synonym. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

禽獸个老君

Latest comment: 2 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese (Penang Hokkien). SoP: 禽獸 + 个 + 老君 = animal's doctor. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete but keep in entries as a synonym? —Fish bowl (talk) 00:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. Kept in 獸醫 as a synonym. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

滯漲

Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. I don't find any appropriate reason for this not shortening to 滯脹 / 滞胀 for its full name being 停滯性通貨膨脹／停滞性通货膨胀 (tíngzhìxìng tōnghuò péngzhàng). Notice that the correct simp. term always exist, so why does the trad. entry continue to be a mistake? First of all 漲／涨 (zàng) is by no means the traditional form of 胀 (zhàng) and vice versa. Secondly, leaving aside the situation in Hong Kong and Macao, about which I'm poorly informed, hoping someone can provide me with additional clarification, the more commonly seen shorthand is 停滯性通膨, as the latter is how 通貨膨脹 should get shortened to correctly in Taiwan. Last but not least, if the RFD failed, i.e. the proof of existence of the word is found, either turning out to be standard or nonstandard, I just wish the corresponding trad. page 滯脹 could be created and the current mismatch between trad. & simp. be split up. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 23:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Maraschino Cherry: This seems more like an RFV issue. Also pinging @Mar vin kaiser, who created this entry. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

嚇殺

Latest comment: 15 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP - 嚇+殺. 殺 is a verb complementizer in much of Northern Wu meaning "[to do ...] so as to induce death". — Musetta6729 (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Comment: We do have a lot of entries with 死 as the complement, like 嚇死, 殺死, etc. I imagine 死 is as productive as 殺? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

That would be correct so fair enough. Though would this mean that other such ～殺 compounds can also be added in the future provided there's some degree of idiomaticity? — Musetta6729 (talk) 04:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

嚇殺人

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP: 嚇+殺+人. The verb sense ("to make people afraid") is definitely not fossilized SoP - it would be a Verb-Object phrase in any case (analogous to Mandarin 嚇死人). The current Adjective sense ("... to a very high extent", which, shouldn't it really be adverbial?) is arguably idiomatic to some extent, but there are expanded variants such as 嚇殺個人 which can in most cases be employed in the same way in e.g. Shanghainese. Should only the verb sense of this be deleted or should both senses be altogether removed? See above thread about 嚇殺 also. Note also the variant characters 嚇煞人 which is currently also logged as an entry. — Musetta6729 (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete SOP — nd381 (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

嚇煞人

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP. See Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/CJK#嚇殺人.　— Musetta6729 (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete SOP — nd381 (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

負一層

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 負 (negative) + 一 (one) + 層 (floor, level) = level -1. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一個個

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 一 + reduplicated classifier 個. This can happen with any classifier. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:24, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

每個

Latest comment: 15 hours ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 每 every + classifier 個 - this can happen with any classifier. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

產褥感染

Latest comment: 29 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 產褥 (postnatal period; puerperium) + 感染 (infection) = puerperal infection. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一からやり直す

Latest comment: 11 days ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP. Better documented as a collocation. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 13:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I go back and forth on this one. On one hand, the use of 一(いち) (ichi) is metaphorical: literally a number, used idiomatically to signify a prior state. But on the other hand it is such a common metaphor, even cross-linguistically, that the usage doesn't really feel idiomatic. I don't know that much would be lost by deleting this, but I don't know that much would be gained. Cnilep (talk) 01:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Cnilep: I think this metaphorical use merits inclusion but is better documented at 一 or 一から. やり直す is far from only verb that can be combined with it. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 10:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha: I think you are probably right. There is currently 一 sense 2.2: "the beginning". Maybe a note or something? In any case, I'm comfortable calling 一からやり直す SoP. Cnilep (talk) 04:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

見てる

Latest comment: 24 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

見ている

Japanese. SOP. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Unless I miss my guess, it is standard to have root and preterite forms of Japanese verbs, and to leave the other forms to a conjugation table on the root entry. In which case, delete the full form. And since the colloquial form is the result of a common and productive morphological process, delete both. Cnilep (talk) 23:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

てる#Etymology_1 OR る#Etymology_3

Latest comment: 20 days ago4 comments4 people in discussion

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, 荒巻モロゾフ, Shen233, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Chuterix, Mcph2, Theknightwho):

I think one of these two has to go and I suggest we use the same convention (of whether we include て/で or not) for all similar contractions.

What speaks for てる is that it meshes more nicely with とる and とく and that monolingual dictionaries generally seem to document it under this headword.

What speaks for る is that we don't have to have everything twice (て/で) and that it is more canonical (analyzing it as てる is rebracketing IMO).

Any opinions? — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha Agreed - I favour keeping てる (-teru), which is the actual suffix. Theknightwho (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think that Fytcha is correct to call てる rebracketing; it comes from [Conjunctive verb + いる], with て part of the inflected verb. That said, I have absolutely no objection to keeping てる (which is intuitively and functionally suffix-like) and losing る 3. I would also be happy to call でる a variant of てる, though that may be beyond this discussion, and might not simplify much anyway. Cnilep (talk) 23:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha Agreed – I'm also for てる (-teru), since, as you said, it falls into the same category of abbreviated forms like とる (-toru) (as abbreviation of 〜ておる), とく (-toku) (as abbreviation of 〜ておく), ちゃう (-chau) (as abbreviation of 〜てしまう), &c. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

December 2024

海老

Latest comment: 22 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: (literary, of a sea) to dry up. Tagged by @Maraschino Cherry without much of an explanation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry. Let me explain the reason here: First of all, this usage, if can be called so, after my painstaking search, is seldom seen, likely even once or twice; Secondly, it is a metaphor imaginatively devised out of someone's creativity. Take this verse for example:

威靈丕振，即教地仄天廻；憤恨難平，漫説水乾海老。 [Classical Chinese, trad.]
威灵丕振，即教地仄天迴；愤恨难平，漫说水干海老。 [Classical Chinese, simp.]

From: circa 1711, 章藻功, 《告潮神文》

Wēilíng pī zhèn, jí jiào dìzè tiānhuí; fènhèn nán píng, mànshuō shuǐgān hǎilǎo. [Pinyin]

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

Here 海老 itself is explained by 水乾／水干, therefore we can clearly know the literally aging of sea is a vivid figure of speech meaning water drying up. Although this is not where 海老 is first attested, but the usage is exactly same, only with the order reversed, i.e., 水乾／水干 was originally following 海老. So far I haven't found any example where these two don't appear together. That being the case, in my simple understanding, should this RFD not be passed, 水乾 must be created as well, mustn't it? Maraschino Cherry (talk) 09:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

銅牌得主

Latest comment: 13 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 銅牌 "bronze medal" + 得主 "recipient, winner". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

金牌得主

Latest comment: 13 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 金牌 "gold medal" + 得主 "recipient, winner". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

銀牌得主

Latest comment: 13 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 銀牌 "silver medal" + 得主 "recipient, winner". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

獲得者

Latest comment: 13 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 獲得 (to obtain) + 者 (person who does X). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:00, 9 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

be̍eh-á

Latest comment: 11 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hokkien. It's "extended" POJ for dialects with /ɛ/, and so it would not be attested. (It's also pointing to 襪仔 at the moment, which is not right.) @Akiraveliara — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Fixed Akiraveliara (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

之父

Latest comment: 9 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: X + 之 + 父 (father) = father of X. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

TCM prescription entries

Latest comment: 8 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Encyclopedic and potentially WT:BRAND. The list includes the following 109 entries with more or less the same format: 七厘散, 活血止痛散, 九分散, 阿魏化痞膏, 八味沉香散, 舒筋丸, 茴香橘核丸, 跌打活血散, 狗皮膏, 小金丸, 十香返生丸, 化症回生片, 跌打丸, 少林風濕跌打膏, 七十味珍珠丸, 二十五味珊瑚丸, 二十五味珍珠丸, 經方, 白帶丸, 琥珀抱龍丸, 八味檀香散, 麝香保心丸, 羚羊清肺丸, 戊己丸, 通宣理肺丸, 少腹逐瘀丸, 保赤散, 八珍益母丸, 前列舒丸, 二至丸, 四君子丸, 十香止痛丸, 舒肝丸, 昆明山海棠片, 千柏鼻炎片, 清肺抑火丸, 石斛夜光丸, 十六味冬青丸, 五虎散, 五子衍宗丸, 定坤丹, 附子理中丸, 麻仁丸, 七味榼滕子丸, 清眩丸, 七味葡萄散, 青果丸, 清咽丸, 生血丸, 四正丸, 桂附理中丸, 二冬膏, 三子散, 女金丸, 降糖丸, 桂枝茯苓丸, 避瘟散, 刺五加浸膏, 八味清心沉香散, 桂林西瓜霜, 痧藥, 安胃片, 得生丸, 蛤蚧定喘丸, 更年安片, 清肺消炎丸, 六味木香散, 六合定中丸, 香砂六君丸, 芎菊上清丸, 四神丸, 舒胸片, 舒肝和胃丸, 四味土木香散, 三妙丸, 三金片, 五苓散, 五味沙棘散, 十二味翼首散, 十三味榜嘎散, 控涎丸, 良附丸, 黛蛤散, 二妙丸, 大山楂丸, 香附丸, 五味麝香丸, 鼻炎片, 清瘟解毒丸, 木瓜丸, 豨薟丸, 紫雪, 三味蒺藜散, 鷺鷥咯丸, 國公酒, 痛經丸, 固經丸, 石淋通片, 刺五加片, 顛茄酊, 妙濟丸, 益心酮片, 香連片, 胡蜂酒, 坎離砂, 生脈飲, 薑酊, 四逆湯, 龜齡集. – wpi (talk) 10:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Just want to point out that the entry 經方 is different from others listed here and not a name of a specific prescription. Keep the entry 經方. Dokurrat (talk) 04:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC) (edited)Reply

Thanks. I generated this list by searching the reference text, so it was included inadvertently. Agree that it should be kept, but the definition may need some reworking to be less encyclopedic. – wpi (talk) 10:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

極了

Latest comment: 2 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 極 + 了. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup add new request \| history \| archives Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.	Requests for verification English add new request \| history CJK add new request \| history Italic add new request \| history Non-English (all other languages) add new request \| history Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.	Requests for deletion English add new request \| history CJK add new request \| history Italic add new request \| history Reconstruction add new request \| history Non-English (all other languages) add new request \| history Requests for deletion of pages in the main and Reconstruction namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.	Requests for deletion/Others add new request \| history Requests for deletion and undeletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.
Requests for moves, mergers and splits add new request \| history \| archives Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.			Language treatment requests add new request \| history Requests for changes to Wiktionary's language treatment practices, including renames, merges and splits.
{{attention}} • {{rfap}} • {{rfdate}} • {{rfquote}} • {{rfdef}} • {{rfeq}} • {{rfe}} • {{rfex}} • {{rfi}} • {{rfp}}

July 2019

June 2020

July 2020

September 2020

January 2021

Special:Contributions/72.82.45.69, Special:Contributions/72.82.47.169

Page creations: みずやま 端山 坦山 丹山 探山 たんざん 湛山 のの 暖々 安於生 暖穂生 愛生 愛生子 あおいこ 珠水 花珠葉 花珠水 花観 花珠 花海 埴原

April 2021

Japanese ブルータス、お前もか

October 2021

内鮮, 内台

January 2022

March 2022

May 2022

July 2022

August 2022

Japanese entries by User:Japanfreak0

Undelete 丿部, 支部, and 辵部

Japanese entries くぁw背drftgy富士子lp and くぁwせdrftgyふじこlp

November 2022

December 2022

Reconstruction:Proto-Japonic/na-

四海兄弟 - Japanese

January 2023

February 2023

March 2023

コロナ

April 2023

May 2023

June 2023

July 2023

August 2023

日向, 大和, 武蔵, 長門, 金剛

September 2023

October 2023

失ウ, 失フ, ウシナウ, ウシナフ, +relevant item at ushinau#Romanization

November 2023

All Ryukyuan romanisation entries

December 2023

January 2024

February 2024

March 2024

April 2024

dou3-2, waa6-2, kiu4-2, dek6-2

June 2024

July 2024

Japanese terms of 訪X

August 2024

September 2024

Page creations: みずやま端山坦山丹山探山たんざん湛山のの暖々安於生暖穂生愛生愛生子あおいこ珠水花珠葉花珠水花観花珠花海埴原