Talk:бедбахт

RFV discussion: August–September 2006

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Tartar (Pt. II)

The Tartar language is a living language, spoken by 8 million individuals across the world; it ranks 95th in world languages. It should, therefore, not be difficult to find three attestations of any given Tartar word, especially if it is a word for a basic concept such as bad luck or morning. In accordance with Wiktionary's three attestation rule (CFI), I therefore request verification of the following words. I have laid out my reasons for doubting their authenticity.

I also make the following notes : a) upon closer inspection, these words were all added to en:wikt by one user, User:Eric Utgerd. An inspection of the Tartar wiktionary (tt.wiktionary.org) reveals that some of these words were also added there by User:Utgerd; or else do not exist. If these were real words, one might expect that other users would have been adding them, also. b) Eric Utgerd switched to Cyrillic after we pointed out that Tartar was not written in the Roman alphabet; I apologise to Eric Utgerd, however it is my impression that if he had any knowledge of the Tartar language, he would have known that. c) His entry for the Tartar-wiktionary category "Tartar Cyrill" is written in English -- also suggesting that he does not speak Tartar. d) A search of the Tartar wikipedia (par exemple) turns up 0 results for most of the words I have listed below.

As this page states (at the top); I shall wait one month for verification; if none can be found, I shall request that the unverified word(s) be deleted. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

бэд бэхт

No internet search engine produces results for this word; and it appears to be the sum of its parts. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is real word. Just another way of spelling бедбахт. Reference: Tatar dictionary, Page 126 [1] Eric Utgerd 13:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a source; I believe you accidently pasted the wrong link, I cannot find that information in the link you provided, but I located it here using the corrected spelling you gave; and corrected the spelling, definition, and part-of-speech accordingly. Beobach972 20:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling бедбахт. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My recommendation is to delete the redirect page бэд бэхт; and to not delete the page бедбахт. Beobach972 16:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 20:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

быйнгы

No internet search engine produces results for this word. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Eric Utgerd 07:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunantly, no-one, myself included, has been able to find attestation/usage/citations of this word; therefore it is my recommendation that this entry (быйнгы) be deleted and this RFV discussion archived to the appropriate place. Beobach972 16:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 20:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

курд

This returns 54 300 results; of these, only 23 can be found for that + 'tartar'; of those, half reference 'cream of tartar' with Russian translations, one in in the context of naming languages, in which the text is 'Ûrisî (курд.)', and later 'Tartar' is mentioned, and only one supports a translation of 'курд' as 'kurd', unfortunantly, however, that is Russian-English, not Tartar-English. There are only 3 results for that + 'татарча' (the Tartar name for their language), one of which was another 'Urisi' page, and only mentioned Tartar as a separate language. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Verification results.

Word listed in most respected tatar dictionary see курд at page 372.

Also mentioned in Russian Ethnographic Dictionary as tatar type cheese

Корт - вид сыра у татар. См. КУРУТ.Kort - vid syra u tatar. Sm. KURUT here

Spelling variants: курд, курут, курт, крут, корт. Variant курут gave more returns related to curd and cottage cheese.

I think we can allow the word to remain here. I am going to add spelling variants and refs. — This unsigned comment was added by Eric Utgerd (talk • contribs).

Thank you for providing a reference for this word. (For the benefit of those who do not speak Russian, I shall note that the book provided is the United Nations' Kazakh office's 'Крымскотатарско - Русско - Украинский словарь', in English the Crimean-Tartar - Russian - Ukrainian dictionary.) It clarifies that the word курд does not mean curd or cottage cheese, but rather refers to an ethnic Kurd. I have corrected the definition accordingly, and removed the RFV tag from this word.

The other citation supports a spelling of корт (kort), so that sense (cheese) should be added to that entry (корт), provided two more citations are found. (I researched the word and discovered that is also has a meaning of bee, which I created and referenced.) Beobach972 17:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

My recommendation is that this word (курд), with the definition 1. a Kurd should be not deleted. Beobach972 16:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 20:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

коат

I am curious as to whether this word would have entered Tartar in this form : that is, why would it have entered the Tartar language as an exact translation of the letters (c-o-a-t, which would be pronounced kəʊ-ɑ.t) instead of a phonetic transliteration? Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I have moved this entry to here after locating it under that spelling in the UN dictionary; and I also added the Kyrgyz definition, per a USDS dictionary. Beobach972 01:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE because located under alternative spelling къат. Eric Utgerd 07:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the page коат and archive this discussion appropriately that the page may be revived if citations for that spelling are found; do not delete the page къат. Beobach972 16:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 21:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

соаз

No search results for either соаз + татарча or соаз + tartar. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is real word, but more frequently spelled as саз. Eric Utgerd 13:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP both spellings. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now located verification for the spelling саз at the Русско-татарский краткий словарь, therefore I recommend that the spelling саз be kept; however as no verification for the spelling соаз has been found, I recommend that it be deleted, and this discussion archived. Beobach972 20:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

To rfd. Andrew massyn 13:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

саба

This is verifiably a Russian word, however I can find no attestatiosn of it in the Tartar language. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative spelling чыба. Eric Utgerd 04:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling чыба and REMOVE old spelling саба . Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

сабид

I can find no Tartar attestations. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Now you can see placed references. Because of this, please remove RVF. Eric Utgerd 02:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My recommendation is that this word (сабид) be deleted because it fails to meet Wiktionary CFI : a) no Tartar-language usage has been provided (the citations being in Russian), and the citations furthermore b) do not convey meaning. Beobach972 17:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Two different recommendations. I can't decide. To rfd Andrew massyn 13:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

дан

I can find this used only in the context of names, when it is transliterated (or is a transliteration of) 'Dan'; I can find no usage in Tartar. I am curious whether this is a false cognate to the English word, or if it is a loanword; in which case I am curious that Tartar would not have developed a native word for such a basic concept. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is common for all turkish language group. Root is Dan/Tan - Dawn. Also Azeri dan - dawn, Dan Ulduz - Dawn Star, turkmen dañ dawn. Eric Utgerd 06:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep it now that references are provided. Beobach972 14:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 06:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

сэрям

This returns 4 results, including one on Wiktionary, and one nonsense page (the text is 'НЈiђpЯђ¦5¤№QЫ ±’v™*6д7Аy~Д„ЯМ¦%њ *O У я СэрЯМ ёё!Sђ nF 5Йп ы° ЖК€Ќ"= а­d"ВjФ!0 sЎ"©ЯГ у и–ж«ї vµyн™g»P¦„·\иђЫ_ ќВ §9Ж–PЮ!’јkЅ3 ЎУ PHк~x%шЭB4 ]::7УЋ†}Qe_V ... '); no valid usage. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 21:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

сэкут

Only three results; again, one ours, and one nonsense - no actual usage. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative latin spelling süküt. Eric Utgerd 04:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling süküt and REMOVE old spelling сэкут . Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

as recommended. Andrew massyn 18:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

сэрэг

I can find no usage attestations; I should like a few to be provided. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative spelling черек. Eric Utgerd 06:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling черек and REMOVE old spelling сэрэг . Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

сэрэк

The only result is from our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

as recommended Andrew massyn 18:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

сэряу

The only results are nonsense, or our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended Andrew massyn 18:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

сэряг

The only results are nonsense, or our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is real word, but more frequently spelled as сирәк. I created new entry. Could you please remove RFV and old entry.Eric Utgerd 13:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling сирәк . Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

сэлян

The only results are nonsense, our own en:wikt, or (a few) Russian attestations; no Tartar. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to correct spelling зилян. Eric Utgerd 04:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling зилян. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэлян; keep the new spelling зилян, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 17:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэйм ан.

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative spelling сыман. Eric Utgerd 05:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling сыман. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 07:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэйм ан; keep the new spelling сыман, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

as recommended Andrew massyn 17:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэлауд

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to spelling салауат. Eric Utgerd 06:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling салауат. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэлауд; keep the new spelling салауат, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended Andrew massyn 18:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэриг

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative spelling сырыкъ. Eric Utgerd 07:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling сырыкъ. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэриг; keep the new spelling сырыкъ, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэупса

I cannot find any Tartar attestations. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to spelling шөпшә. Eric Utgerd 06:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling шөпшә. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэупса; keep the new spelling шөпшә, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэбэн

The only results are nonsense, our own en:wikt, or (a few) Russian attestations; no Tartar. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to alternative spelling чебен. Eric Utgerd 06:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling чебен. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэбэн; keep the new spelling чебен, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

сэлэк

The only results are our own en:wikt, or (a few) Russian attestations; no Tartar. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is real word, but more frequently spelled as сөлек. I created new entry. Could you please remove RFV and old entry.Eric Utgerd 13:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling сөлек. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word сэлэк; keep the new spelling сөлек, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

бисида

The only results are our own en:wikt, or (a few) Russian attestations; no Tartar. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to spelling бистә. Eric Utgerd 05:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling бистә. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word бисида; keep the new spelling бистә, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

быйнг

The only results are our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

бэдлы

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended Andrew massyn 18:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

бэддер

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to spelling бетер. Citation provided. Eric Utgerd 02:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling бетер. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that the spelling бэддер be deleted, and the spelling бетер be kept, with the modified definition of 'worse' (altered on the basis of the definition given in the source provided, 'хуже' (Russian) \ 'гірше' (Ukrainian)). Beobach972 20:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

баг сау

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to spelling багъча. Citation provided. Eric Utgerd 02:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling багъча. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word баг сау; keep the new spelling багъча, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

as recommended. Andrew massyn 18:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

бель бау

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct spelling is билбау. Old entry deleted.Eric Utgerd 13:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling билбау. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word бель бау; keep this new spelling билбау, as, in the event concerns over it arise, it should recieve its own RFC/RFV/whatever process. Beobach972 20:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

барматык

The only result is our own en:wikt. Beobach972 16:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: REMOVE. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recomended. Andrew massyn 18:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

aba

(The Tartar section.) Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Word listed in tatar dictionary see аба 2. бурка, армяк домотканого сукна at page 1.

аба 2. бурка - exactly means sleeveless garment. Because of this, please remove RFV from this entry.Eric Utgerd 14:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The definition given in the UN dictionary is for a rough, generally homespun, woolen cloth garment, often made from deer or goat-hide (not exactly synonymous with the English aba or sleeveless). I have corrected the entry accordingly; and also added the dialectal/slang sense of sister. Beobach972 15:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As recommended. Andrew massyn 18:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

athel

(The Tartar section; I see we have already verified the English section.) It was difficult enough finding English attestatiosn of this; I cannot find any attestations of this in Tartar. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

rfvfailed. Andrew massyn 17:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

belang

I can find no Tartar attestations of this. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved to correct spellings белән and belän. Eric Utgerd 08:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spellings белән and belän. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the unverified word belang; keep the new spellings, and they can be approached separately. Beobach972 20:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

calm

(The Tartar section.) I am unable to find any attestation of this as a Tartar word. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Tatar section deleted from entry calm and moved to cyriilic spelling калим. Eric Utgerd 14:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling калим. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Tartar\Tatar section of calm should (remain) deleted.

coat

(The Tartar section.) I can find no usage of this in Tartar in the sense given. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Tatar section already moved to alternative spelling къат. Eric Utgerd 08:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the Tartar\Tatar section of coat (already done, so strikethrough). Beobach972 21:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

side

(The Tartar section.) I can find no usage of this in Tartar in the sense given. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Tatar section deleted from entry side and moved to alternative cyrillic spelling сит. Eric Utgerd 02:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spelling сит. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Andrew massyn 18:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

hoar

(The Tartar section.) I can find no usage of this in Tartar; neither as khoar nor hoar; attestations/citations would be appreciated. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Tatar section moved to alternative spellings har, хар. Citation provided. Eric Utgerd 05:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP new spellings har and хар. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete the Tartar\Tatar section of hoar. Beobach972 21:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Done Andrew massyn 18:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

hoar'd

I can find no usage of this in Tartar. Beobach972 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is just another way of etymological spelling Cyrillic харт , Latin hart. Eric Utgerd 13:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: KEEP. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Tartar section of hoar'd has been moved to the more accurate transliteration / Latin spelling hart; therefore I recommend that hoar'd be deleted. Beobach972 21:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Two different recommendations. I can't decide. To rfd. Andrew massyn 13:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

top

From the same source as the English top? That is not linguistically possible. Beobach972

Words from same source as removed ( now used akin to english). Now you can see strong confirmations from new dictionary and Wikipedia.

Speling variants: top, töp, töpe,тёпе, тњбђ, тепе, тюп, топ, топе, тюбе

See Old Tatar Fort "Töpe Kermen" ( means Top Fort) here[2].

Also, please find below link to new dictionary ( zipped word doc) S.M.Useinoov, V.A.Mireev Dictionary, Simferopol, Dolya, 2002. See entry: Вершина – töpe[[3]] Eric Utgerd 09:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a reference. It suggests that töpe is a noun meaning peak, top, summit; I have edited and moved the word to that spelling accordingly. Beobach972 15:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andrew massyn: Tatar section already moved to new spelling töpe. Thanks. Eric Utgerd 08:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed; keep töpe (and leave the Tartar section of top deleted). Beobach972 22:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Andrew massyn 18:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)