User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

Your favourite Wiktionarians

Who are your favourite Wiktionarians? I mean the ones whose work you admire the most (in quality, quantity, etc.). PUC – 16:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I won't name names, but these are the people working on languages of Oikumene (Western Asia, Europe, North Africa), preferably from the historical perspective. I especially appreciate colleagues with common sense, good faith and sense of humor. Vahag (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Your favourite scholars

Who's your favourite Western Armenian scholar (meaning scholar who studies Armenian and comes from the West, not scholar who studies Western Armenian)? Hübschmann?

And who are the scholars whom you most admire in general? PUC – 10:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It's Hübschmann. Honestly, not much progress has been made since his {{R:xcl:AG}}. Something happened after World War I: people are getting dumber and smaller everywhere. A footnote by a Hübschmann, Brockelmann or Nöldeke contains more scholarship than a whole book by a modern.

The scholar I admire most is of course Acharyan. His high-quality and vast output is equivalent to a century's work of several universities combined. I don't know how it is humanly possible to do what he did. No race has an etymological dictionary comparable to {{R:xcl:HAB}}. Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

ձի

I wanted to let the readers know, that the references are real. Could they go under the header "Further reading" instead? -- Apisite (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean "the references are real"? Vahag (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The reference templates look more fitting for the header "Further reading" than the "References" one in the context of the entry; if any reader were to enter any of the links, then he (or she) may figure out where the word is on the page. --Apisite (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't want you to add references to Armenian entries which you have not personally read and understood. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to say, that I saw the links in the three references. --Apisite (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Armeno-Turkish

Thanks for contributing by adding Armeno-Turkish spellings and even quotes, sources about it are almost nonexistent online. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I do it to reveal forms which are not attested by the defective Arabic script. It is often these forms that explain the shape of the borrowings in other languages. Vahag (talk) 08:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply, but could you give me some examples? Rodrigo5260 (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I have given some examples at Wiktionary_talk:About_Ottoman_Turkish#Other_scripts, երնջնակ (ernǰnak) and Talk:արտալայ. Vahag (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you 👍. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Tsolak

Hi Vahagn. Unfortunately there is no way to distinguish between the Armenian name and the Turkish surname in Greek script. Τhe transcription to Greek is the same word, "Τσολάκ" (I was about to create the Greek Wikt article, pointing the two different etymologies.) So, in Greek, Ցոլակյան (Tsolakian, Цолакян) and Չոլաքյան (Cholakian, Чолакян) is the same word, "Τσολακιάν". So, please, revert your revertion to my edit. Regards, —— Chalk19 (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Chalk19: we don't allow theoretical transliterations. A name must be attested. Do you have attestations for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) referring to an Armenian person Ցոլակ (Cʻolak)? My search finds only people with nine-eleveny names like Μουσταφά, Εμρέ, Ορχάν who can't be Armenian. Note that Ցոլակ (Cʻolak) is not a very popular name in Armenian to begin with, and that among Greece and Cyprus Armenians it would mostly be pronounced as /t͡sʰɔˈlɑɡ/ = Τσολάγκ, not Τσολάκ. Vahag (talk) 07:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Tsolakian / Цолакян and Cholakian / Чолакян are "attested" forms. Both in Greek are transl. as "Τσολακιάν" (Tsolakian). It's not a matter of pronounciation (even in this case there is not way in Greek script to note the difference between Ts-Ц and Ch-Ч) but of transliteration. Like with Russian names and surnames, for example. —— Chalk19 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

You don't understand. See WT:CFI and give me three cites in Greek for Τσολάκ (Tsolák) and Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián) where it refers to Armenian persons named Ցոլակ (Cʻolak) and Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan). Vahag (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

"Τσoλακιάν" is a Greek surname (an example from armenianportal.gr [1], ref. to Παύλος Τσολακιάν as president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece) from Armenians who found refuge in Grecce after fleeing the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, because of the Genocide and the persecusion by the Turks. There is no way to know, or tell who of those "Τσολακιάν"s were Tsolakian / Цолакян or Cholakian / Чолакян. BUT even this were possible, there is NO WAY to transliterate these names to Greek, to the Greek alphabet, showing the diff. bt. Ts/Ц and Ch/Ч. —— Chalk19 (talk) 09:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

PS. So, we have Παύλος Τσολακιάν (= Pavlos Tsolakian); and Τσολακιάν is Τσολάκ (Tsolak) + the suffix -ιάν (-ian) (-յան). ——Chalk19

There is a way to know that. We know from Armenian-script sources that the president's name is Պօղոս Չոլաքեան (Pōġos Čʻolakʻean). We also know that Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan) is an Eastern Armenian surname, so unlikely to be found in Greece which is populated by Western Armenians, among whom Չոլաքյան (Čʻolakʻyan) is very common. Therefore, you can create Τσολακιάν (Tsolakián), but you should not mention it in unrelated Ցոլակ (Cʻolak), Ցոլակյան (Cʻolakyan). --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind. Btw, since we had the above talk, let me take advantage of knowledge in Armenian. Can you please tell me if the Armenian male given names Avet, Avetik, Avetis, and Avedis are related to each other? And if so, do their meaning is similar to the Greek name Ευάγγελος (der. from ευαγγέλιο = gospel), the one that brings good news? Thanks in advance. —— Chalk19 (talk) 12:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

See Ավետիս (Avetis), Ավետիք (Avetikʻ), Ավետ (Avet). Means "good news". Vahag (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Help needed

Hi Vahag ! I wonder if you can help me with the following matter that troubles me. In Greek, besides the Armenian-Greek name "Σιμονιάν" (Սիմոնյան) there is also the similar (?) "Σιμονακιάν" (Simonakyan), for which I cannot find any info, neither on Tigran Avetisyan's book (not listed there), nor on the internet. Have you any suggestions ? Might be "Simonak" another form or a dimunitive of Սիմոն ? I see on the net that there is a surmane "Simonak", but it's just a "simplified" form in latin script for the Slovakian "Šimoňák" -no relation to anything Armenian. Thanks in andvance for your time and trouble. Regards. Chalk19 (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @Chalk19. Neither a surname *Սիմոնակյան (*Simonakyan) nor a diminutive given name *Սիմոնակ (*Simonak) exist in Armenian. It looks like someone artificially Armenized Greek Σιμωνάκης (Simonákis) or Σιμονάκης (Simonákis), which are formed with -άκης (-ákis). Vahag (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the suggestion. It's possible, I will search it further in that direction. If so, then it is a "reborrowed" surname, following the pattern: original Greek family name > "armenised" Greek > "back" as a Greek version of the "armenised". In Greek we have no few cases of "reborrowed" surnames from Russian, from Greeks who moved from the Ottoman Empire to the Russian Empire (for the most part during the 19th cent. as merchants, esp. in places like Odessa, Crimea and Saint Petersburg), had their names "russianised", and when they came back to Greece (most of them after the October Revolution) they had their Russian family names transcribed in Greek. Thanks again ! Chalk19 (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Surnames are difficult. Some go through several languages, being adapted and reshaped along the way. Look at Hewsen, a nice Westoid surname at first sight, but in reality an Anglicization of Հյուսնյան (Hyusnyan). Vahag (talk) 11:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I know, it can be tricky sometimes. It is true with placenames, too; "re-borrowing" was a common practice in multi-national states as the Ottoman and the Russian Empires were. Chalk19 (talk) 12:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Аладжов

Hello Vahag ! I came across this Bulgarian family name while dealing with the Russian-Armenian surname Аладжян at el/Wikt. Is it possibly of Armenian origin, a "Bulgarianised" form of the Armenian Հալաջյան or Ալաջյան ? Chalk19 (talk) 15:26, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It is a Bulgarian surname from an appellative of Turkish origin. The same appellative underlies the Armenian surnames you mentioned. There are many common Ottoman Turkish borrowings in Bulgarian and Armenian.

The best way to find out if a surname is Armenian is searching it on Google Images. You should find beautiful big-nosed creatures with intelligent eyes. Look at these mugs, they are obviously not Armenian. Vahag (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 ! Chalk19 (talk) 19:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Հայրապետյան

Hello Vahag ! Does the form Խայրապետյա actually exist in Armenian as a variant, or it's a transliteration to Armenian from a Latin transliteration (like "Khayraretyan") of the Armenian "Հայրապետյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course not. Those are inorganic search results from automatically generated websites, machine-translated from Russian. You can use www.anun.am to find real Armenian surnames. It is based on the voters register of Armenia. Vahag (talk) 10:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Европа, Kumyk

Thanks for adding the exact pages of the definition in References, as I do not have access to the physical copy of the dictionary. Could you do the same with «европеец» and европалы? Thanks in advance. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 23:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but know that you can find the scanned pdfs of these dictionaries in shadow libraries yourself. Vahag (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

North Kurdish (deletion of silav)

Hello there. I am adding it to another page called سڵاو, which has other dialects of the Kurdish language, this word is co-rooted with them. Why are you deleting without reading the reason! Amiersoi (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I left a message on your talk page. Vahag (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Byzantine Greek as Ancient Greek

Sorry about that edit. I guess it's always a bit tricky sorting Byzantine Greek into either ancient or modern, or its own separate category, especially since it spanned such a long time, and was rather different phonetically in the end period than the beginning a millennium earlier. For example the way β and ύ are pronounced in words coming from Latin can be a bit problematic. But I'm not here to contest the official Wiktionary policy on it. I guess they are all going to be part of the "Ancient Greek" language, along with Koine. Thanks. Word dewd544 (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not your fault No one knows how to handle Middle periods of languages properly. Vahag (talk) 18:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Altiparmak

Hi again. Is it possible this surname, besides deriving from the Turkish "Altıparmak" that is also a shortened form of the (Turkish-)Armenian "Altiparmakian" ? Chalk19 (talk) 10:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chalk19: that is theoretically possible. In the diaspora, -yan is often dropped to blend in and for euphony. Vaghinak Aznavuryan may become Charles Aznavour, Andranik Sargysan may become Andy Serkis. In Turkey -yan is dropped, not to be identified as an Armenian and be beheaded. You have to check the history of each person. To distinguish a Turk Altıparmak from a shortened Armenian Altiparmakian check the first name, the face and especially the profession. Vahag (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Btw, is the trad. orthography spelling of Aliparmakyan Ալթըփարմաքեան ? Does the "reformed" version Ալթիպարմակյան listed by Avetisian (p. 8a) really exist ? And what about Ալտիբարմակյան ? Is that one related to the Russian Алтыбармакян ? Chalk19 (talk) 12:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I have collected all the real forms at Ալթըփարմաքյան (Altʻəpʻarmakʻyan). *Ալթիպարմակյան and *Ալտիբարմակյան are ghost forms, created by retranscribing foreign spellings into Armenian. Vahag (talk) 13:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Nice work, Vahag ! If you don't mind take a look of my editing @ el:Αλτιπαρμακιάν and el:Αλτιπαρμάκ. Τhe latter was found to both Muslim (people of Turkish origin) and Christians living in Greece, so there are two etymology sections in the article. Can "Αλτιπαρμάκ" be added as der. of the Greek "Αλτιπαρμακιάν" in the Ալթըփարմաքյան article with noting that it may be from Turkish, as well ? Chalk19 (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The first one looks good. The second one: being Christian is not sufficient for assuming Armenian origin. Could be an Anatolian Greek or a Turk who found the light. What are some of the first names of Christian Altiparmaks? Vahag (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Α Turk who found the light ! Ha, ha, very good, indeed ! Well, the Christian names I have seen are Tatiana (Russian  ?) and Pavlos (Paul). Cannot tell for sure if these people are of Armenian origin, even partly. Many Greek-Armenians of the younger generations have "Greek" names, like Pavlos Tsolakian, who was (probably still is) president of the Armenian National Committee of Greece. That's why in the article is stated Armenian origin as a possibility, not a fact. Chalk19 (talk) 13:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Pavlos Tsolakian is attested in Armenian sources. These people are not. There is no reason to assume Armenian origin for any Greek Αλτιπαρμάκ's. Until there is definite proof, I see no benefit in saying "possibly of Armenian origin". Vahag (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Researching further the subject I found that this was a surname among the Greeks of Constantinople (at least). Chalk19 (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Also among Skopje Slavs Vahag (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, again. One more thing. In USA there is a surname "Vetsmatyan" (Վեցմատյան ?). Is it a "real" Armenian surname, or just a translation to Armenian of "Ալթըփարմաքյան" ? Chalk19 (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly a translation (a calque) of Ալթըփարմաքյան. Vahag (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Etymology for Western Armenian -կոր

What possible sources could be consulted to understand the etymology, the historical cause for adoption and usage of -կոր in W.Armenian 185.217.185.10 20:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

See կոր (kor) with references and also this article. I haven't evaluated the evidence myself, so all of this is provisional. Vahag (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Armeno-Turkish as a side project?

what would you think of adding armenian-alphabet forms for ottoman turkish lemmata? asking you because you seem to be rather active in the o.t. sphere here. how would this be gone about? presumably a separate-language entry for each letter would need to be added, like ե being /j/ etc., but would these essentially be like վէճհ - alternative spelling of وجه? RagingPichu (talk) 19:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You can look at how I handled the entries in Category:Ottoman Turkish terms in Armenian script. մէրսի (mersi) got a full entry in Armenian script because the Arabic spelling is not attested. Vahag (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Boring words

See for example French chaume, which originated as a wanderword pre-Latin and subsequently lost all the technical meanings (originally “reed or quill for writing”, etc.) that caused it to spread horizontally in the first place. Other cases like Albanian kallam retain some of the technical meanings but have shifted to prioritizing the more mundane ones. Granted, a shared family of substrata is more likely, but frowned upon to suggest. — 69.120.69.23 20:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that French chaume and Albanian kallam are wanderwords. Those are normal borrowings into Latin and Albanian from the neighboring Greek. As for substrate, the Leidenite "Mediterranean-Pontic" substratum is a myth, at least for the Armenian. Vahag (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Persian قارچ

Hi, take a look at Asatrian, G. (2020). Classical New Persian samārō/ūγ ‘mushroom.’ Iran & the Caucasus, 24(4), 419–422. It gives a n etymology for the word قارچ (mushroom) and probably for کپک (mold). What do you think? Kamran.nef (talk) 00:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I have no opinion. Persian etymologies are not my specialty. Vahag (talk) 10:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kamran.nef: It looks specific enough that some of it must be true. Look, you are also a Wiktionary editor now. You could try copying over the code of one of the reference templates Vahagn or I have made to make a reference template from this Garnik Asatrian piece and augment قارچ yourself. Since we don’t have an opinion, there can’t be much wrong content-wise. I’ll tell you next why I am not going to do it myself. Fay Freak (talk) 16:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to both of you. I'll try it then. Kamran.nef (talk) 18:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

j / z

Do you know any (Old) Armenian example with dz/z(before vowels/between vowels) < PIE g'h alteration? ПростаРечь (talk) 23:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰ gives Old Armenian ձ (j), as in ձեռն (jeṙn), ձիւն (jiwn), մերձ (merj). But between vowels it gives Old Armenian զ (z), as in եզն (ezn), ոզնի (ozni). Vahag (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, does (Old) Armenian have such alteration within one lemma / in compounds? ПростаРечь ПростаРечь (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I can't think of any such cases. Vahag (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Partially unknown vs. entirely unknown

Fair enough since you edited the etymology yourself but, if you don't want to follow behind other users 'tidying up' all the time, it's better that you post the specific policy that actually agrees with you instead of your personal feelings about what you'd like to see in particular categories. The template itself doesn't provide any such guidance and there's nothing immediately obvious at WT:..., Wiktionary:..., WT:Etymology, etc. That said, people frequently get an informal consensus going in a discussion somewhere and then forget to post it as a general rule. Just link to it when you find it. — LlywelynII 20:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no policy, there is common sense. Why do we have Category:Ottoman Turkish terms with unknown etymologies? To gather words which the etymologysts of that language could not solve. It is a beckoning mystery, a titillating challenge. I have added the category to my watchlist and try to solve the etymologies myself. Then you add لیزبون (Lizbon) to it. People working on Turkish don't care that Olisipo's pre-Roman etymology happens to be uknown. Vahag (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Etymology of mıcır

Hi Vahag, could I ask for some help with the etymology of mıcır? TDK and Vikisözlük only give that the origin is Armenian, and you were the foremost specialist who'd be able to assist that came to my mind. Thank you in advance, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@A. T. Galenitis: I have added the relevant etymon. Vahag (talk) 17:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated, thank you for this! —A. T. Galenitis (talk) 02:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the misreading of Acharian on մոծիր, mea culpa! If it is of any help for when you have the time to look further into this, the DSMG entry for the related μούντζα gives a transcription of a supposed Persian etymon "muzh" (for which I could not find anything further). —A. T. Galenitis (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for adding μουντζούρα (mountzoúra) to the comparison. Armenology was not aware of it. A Persian origin for a word with the very un-Persian phoneme ծ = [t͡s] is unlikely. I think մոծիր (mocir) is somehow related to Old Armenian մոխիր (moxir). Their barbaric shapes point to Kartvelian languages. I will be able to review the literature in about two months. Vahag (talk) 17:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Ծօլա

Ամոթից չէր, ասի ծօլա էջում կգրեմ փոխառություն ա ։D Revolution Saga (talk) 17:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Դե գրի, թող խեղճ վրացիքի սիրտը մի քիչ հովանա։ Թե չէ ինչ ունեն-չունեն, ասում ենք հայերենից ա փոխառված։ Vahag (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Հա, ճիշտ ես։ Իմիջիայլոց, էն օրը գրաբարի դասախոսս ասում էր ծոն "մարդ աստծո"-ի կրճատումից ա առաջացել :D Revolution Saga (talk) 17:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Հա դե ժողովրդական ստուգաբանությունը նիկտո նե ատմենյալ։ Հրաչը փորձում ա դրա դեմ պայքարել, բայց ես հո գիտեմ որ մարդկանց մեծ մասը հավատալու ա նրան, ինչին հակված ա․ փաստերով չես կարա համոզես։ Vahag (talk) 17:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

partēz and Armenian consonant shift

Hello Vahagn, would the existence of պարտէզ (partēz) in Classical Armenian not imply that the Armenian consonant shift, in which anlaut *t > d, occured within a more recent time frame than that Beekes presupposes? According to him, voicing of stops after resonants (compare Arm. mard < *mr̥tós) were anterior to the lenition of PIE stops (*p, *t, *k > *ɸ, *θ, *χ) that took place during stage 10, also characteristic of this internal shift. In this case, how would you substantiate the chronology of phonological changes in the face of the etymology that is clearly derived from a much earlier stage of Iranian? Do you agree that the dating during which պարտէզ was borrowed into Armenian corresponds impeccably with Beekes' relative chronology where lenition followed consonant voicing. Or would you beg to differ? What do you think? Thank you in advance, Newroderick895 (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe in the existence of Old Iranian or Mitanni Aryan borrowings in Armenian. պարտէզ (partēz) should be from Middle Iranian *pardēz or similar, and its տ (t) should be explained by some process in the Middle Iranian donor or by analogical influence of some other word (perhaps of պարտ (part)?). So I would not look at պարտէզ (partēz) for establishing pre-historic Armenian sound laws. Vahag (talk) 10:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni? 😂 First time I heard about the extent of this topic and found this article, which was locked in 2008 for pointy editing. Per my findings for the city مرند (marand) northeast of Lake Urmia in Middle Iranian times however we had Indo-Aryans. Karabakh is India, so to speak 🇮🇳✊🏼💪🏾. Fay Freak (talk) 14:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Mitanni Aryan is invoked when the correspondence with the usual Middle Iranian loaner (Parthian, Middle Persian) is not quite regular. The other way to cheat is invoking the Eastern Iranian language of the Parni, supposedly brough to Armenia by the Arsacids, the ruling class of the Parthians (e.g. in Շաւասպ (Šawasp)). Vahag (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

خواجه

You had just rollbacked at Special:Diff/78829501 my reversion of a potentially hoax etymology which is also unsourced. This etymology was added at Special:Diff/62922826 in 2021. I had mentioned it well in the edit summary. I have also noticed that the same was challenged at least thrice before, each time being reverted without any discussion on the contestation. Thank you. (Ping on reply) CX Zoom (talk) 21:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: Vahagn didn’t need to write out any reasoning because you aren’t attentive enough to read, anyhow, and push preconceived value judgements. You mentioned nothing, just slandered a referenced derivation a hoax. Just read what’s actually written and then expand upon the why. Fay Freak (talk) 21:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: The source is of course there (Asatrian). Asatrian's etymology was enriched with Middle Indic data by Samapriya Basu, whom I know as a user competent in Indo-Iranian matters. See his tweet about this word. Vahag (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: "possibly" and "not sourced" call for {{rfv-etym}} and (preferably) posting at the Etymology scriptorium, not amputation of possibly valid and useful content. While there are some cases where something is categorically impossible, such as Ancient Egyptian derivation from an American Indian language, or depends on theories that no one in the mainstream academic community takes seriously, such as Altaic- if you don't know it's wrong, challenge it, don't remove it. That way, if you're right it gets marked as questionable and eventually removed, and if you're mistaken you aren't responsible for removing valid information that might not be added back. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you everyone who replied to my concern. I will take care about such matters in the future, and sorry for unilaterally removing the content. (Ping on reply) CX Zoom (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Greek repatriated loanwords

Thank you for your attention to the Greek αντιδάνειο (antidáneio), here at your αντζούγια note. I am marking these with the Greek term, in anticipation and awaiting for a translation of the term and a Category-support from en.wikt. A proposed translation is repatriated loanword, literally 'counter-loan' that is: borrow BACK from a previous phase of grk.
At one time they were marked {der|el|el}, (at the moment, I am cleaning up the red Category:Greek_twice-borrowed_terms). Other times, they were called reborrowings, but this is αναδανεισμός m (anadaneismós, “= borrow AGAIN”) (like the doublets). The so-called at Greek bibliography αντιδάνεια, do not have a description at en.wikt, because they borrow-BACK from a different period of Greek, and not from el|el.
Note: pre-2000, the term was used very loosely in some dictionaries, for combigning forms of classic compounds. For example, the markings αντιδ. of {{R:Babiniotis 2002}}, also his etymologies at {{R:el:Papyros}} are totally revised at his {{R:Babiniotis 2010}}, and applied in the strict sense of αντιδάνειο. They are applied correctly at {{R:DSMG}}. Ref: this PhD +abstract is nice, but in Greek, discusses also they hybridic and the debated ones.
If you can help out, and create a special Cat. for this Greek 'borrow-back' thing, it would be great! Because i have no idea how to describe it and how to ask for it. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 08:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I have made a meme to describe what is going on in this and other cases. Please, don't force-feed everything you see in Greek dictionaries to English Wiktionary. Most of the custom features you request already exist on English Wiktionary. If they don't, then they are probably not interesting. Please work with the infrastructure we already have here. Vahag (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Template:desc tag= and <tag:...>

Hi, I notice you've been using the |tag= param in {{desc}} and maybe also the <tag:...> inline modifier in {{syn}} and {{ant}}. Both of these are changing to be |lb= and <lb:...> now that dialect tags have been unified with labels; the values of these parameters are handled just like labels in the {{lb}} template. Note that all the Armenian dialect tags have been moved to the Armenian label data module Module:labels/data/lang/hy and unified with what was there before, so they should all continue working. Benwing2 (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for letting me know. That is a useful development. Vahag (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Armenian left half ring

Hi.

What it looks like in any particular document isn't particularly relevant, since manuscripts and typesetting vary. Unicode defines this as a left half ring. If that's not appropriate, we should probably petition Unicode to correct it. I can do that if you provide the evidence.

This character was adopted in the oldest layers of Unicode, so we're probably not going to be able to find the evidence they used for it, to see if a mistake was made there. It was likely imported from some older encoding system without any additional evidence. If the Unicode character name is bad, we'll need to request an alias, as Unicode names can't be changed. But we can change the representative glyph we see on the Armenian character chart, so that it no longer looks like a ring. Meanwhile, I reverted your changes as they messed up the redirects and would leave our readers even more confused.

kwami (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

When you're reverted, especially with an edit that breaks Wiktionary, you need to discuss the issue, not just edit-war over it. kwami (talk) 06:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? The issue is whether we write Ottoman ayn and hamza in Armeno-Turkish as <ՙ> or <՚>? @RagingPichu picked the first one, I am moving to the second one as the printed sources clearly use the Armenian apostrophe. For example here, Ottoman Turkish ս՚ալէպ (“fox”) has the same symbol as the Armenian phrase ՚ի պարծ շրջիլ (’i parc šrǰil) which uses the Armenian apostrophy. Vahag (talk) 10:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Then what does that have to do with <ՙ>? What is <ՙ> used for, if not for ayn and hamza?

To be clear, I don't object to you making whatever corrections you need to to the Armenian apostrophe entry. Where I have concerns is claiming that <ՙ> is the same as <՚>. The half ring needs a definition. I don't know what the proper definition is, and we need better sources than Unicode, but even if the character <ՙ> is completely spurious, we should provide that information to our readers. kwami (talk) 10:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what <ՙ> is used for. I invented its usage for dialectal aspiration at Talk:ՙ. It was certainly not created for writing Armeno-Turkish ayn and hamza, because I invented writing Armeno-Turkish on the Internet for the first time in humanity's history only in 2023. Vahag (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You invented a script that was used by Pôzačean (1841) and others?

From this, it looks like it might be the Latin turned apostrophe adopted to Armenian script, but I'm just guessing. If that's the case, perhaps it should be redirected to that character rather than to the Semiticist half ring. kwami (talk) 11:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

There was no Unicode in Bozadjian's time. This is the first time we are writing Armeno-Turkish on a computer, and we need to choose wich Unicode character to use. Vahag (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

And to choose where we provide the statement about this ARMENIAN MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING being a ghost character. Fay Freak (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Not at all in Armenian script, only in transcription. I understand they could have tried to make a distinction from the Semitist half ring in that the Semitist one represents a whole letter while the Armenian has the property of a modifier letter. But this gainsays the situation Character.UnicodeBlock ARMENIAN of U+0559. From what Vahagn shows you about the apostrophe ՚, the encoding of an alleged Armenian half ring ՙ is a mistake, as the shape is generally closer to the former, so even if there are half rings with the same signification in Armenian script somewhere then they would have to be mere font variants. Accordingly, I find bold Do NOT use. You have more experience to find the official documents about it. Fay Freak (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, that clarifies things. I think we should probably redirect it per that document then. kwami (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Vahagn found and referenced on our Wiktionary page the Unicode document admitting its non-use, a conclusion found by me a priori, while I was writing. Technically it should not have an Armenian, nor Ottoman, entry section. The question remains how we categorize the (demonstrated) encoding artifacts, which @-sche might answer. I thought only about analogy to Category:Translingual ghost words, but surely editors of CJK designed something about it. Because as Kwamikagami says, we should provide that information to our readers orderly. Fay Freak (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Since Unicode says it should be replaced with U+02BB, I think that's where we should rd the character to. We can explain it there in a user note. I'll remove the glyph from our Unicode charts so it doesn't display as anything on that page. kwami (talk) 11:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not without reason, but at the same time the intention of the encoding was aligned with that of Armenian apostrophe. Well it’s nonsense on the end and we redirect to one arbitrarily. Fay Freak (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I figured I just open the Wikipedia page on Japanese ghost characters and look up two, 墸 and 挧, and it looks like they are not handled well, being currently in RFV. There would have to be an analogy to {{no entry}}, by which we sometimes link e.g. Appendix:English dictionary-only terms, however not specific to the Armenian language section, as the information could as well be on the Ottoman side: Unicode has encoded characters for scripts and not languages, so the character is language-section-neutral, not being seriously claimed or considered for any language—even Translingual, so I reckon we should put such a template in front of any L2 such as we do with {{also}}, highlighting also a character’s technical garbage character. Fay Freak (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

We also need to replace <ՙ> with <ʻ> in the automated references. It looks like our automatic transliteration needs to be corrected. I'll leave that to someone who is familiar with it. I've moved the articles on the aspirated dialect consonants, and hopefully fixed Template:Armn-script.

At first I thought that a ghost-character article wasn't the best the to go, and that we should direct the reader to the character that they should be using instead. But maybe a ghost article would be clearer, as you say. It's not a big deal either way, as long as we make the correction available, but we should probably try to be consistent across WK on how we handle things like this. kwami (talk) 11:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: why did you move բՙ (bʻ) and the other aspirated dialectal letters? The latest version of Unicode does not say U+0559 is deprecated. It says it is not used, and that in Armenian transliteration U+02BB should be used instead of U+0559. We are not using U+0559 for Armenian transliteration. We are using it for dialectological notation, a usage unknown to Unicode. Vahag (talk) 12:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Huh? See the paragraphs above. Including your own claims, such as "I don't know what <ՙ> is used for. I invented its usage for dialectal aspiration at Talk:ՙ."

If you invented it, then we shouldn't claim that it's Armenian usage. Also, there are sources provided in the links above that the turned apostrophe is used for that function. kwami (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

BTW, in Unicode parlance, the word "deprecated" is used on the code charts to mean that there's something wrong with the character itself, e.g. that they have architectural or implementation problems. kwami (talk) 20:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I still don't see a problem in adopting an orphan symbol for something we need. It's not like Unicode recommends U+02BB for indicating aspiration in the dialects. Unicode is simply unaware of the Armenian dialectal aspirated letters. Vahag (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I don't understand the need. If we're using printed sources for these forms, why not use their orthography? kwami (talk) 15:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Because I don't like script-mixing. All Armenian letters and almost all Armenian punctuation are unique. But I guess if we can use goyish symbols on ա̈ (ä) and ա̊ (å), we can also use one on բʻ (bʻ). Let me get accustomed to the idea of using symbols from non-Armenian Unicode blocks. Vahag (talk) 16:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay. kwami (talk) 22:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Replying to where I was pinged about the general question of how to handle Unicode characters that aren't used for anything, and not commenting on these specific Armenian characters: here's a mockup of a "ghost character" template and here's a mockup of including it into the existing "no entry" template, but it seems like if a character is in Unicode but isn't used for anything at all, we would usually just delete it...? (If it's used for something but not what Unicode included it for, maybe Usage notes is the place to mention that, or maybe that too is just not includable?) Ghost kanji seem unusual in that they provide a lot of information, even readings (which are pulled from who knows where) - -sche (discuss) 21:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem as I see it is that these are in the Unicode charts, and if deleted would become red links in our lists at e.g. Appendix:Unicode/Armenian, so it's likely that people will repeatedly create them if we don't provide any info, even if they have no info themselves -- just as people repeatedly create pages on emojis without providing any content. If nothing else, people will come here to find what they're used for (that's something I commonly do), and will be left with no answers if we don't cover them.

A dedicated page with a ghost-character template (and also the Unicode character box IMO) might be the best way to go, as far as clarity to the reader. IMO we should also include info on substitute characters in cases like these. The deprecated CJK angle brackets are another case where we might want separate pages with the ghost template, rather than redirecting them to the pages for the functional angle brackets and covering them with a usage note. If you want to use angle brackets, and they all look the same in your font, that info is very handy to have available on WK because it's so easy to search by specific code point here. kwami (talk) 21:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

բաղասճիք

I am not sure what you mean about this word not being attested–would it be preferable to cite Armenian sources like this one which include the word? http://www.old.ysu.am/files/02N_Dilbaryan.pdf

I do not speak Armenian, but there do appear to be several Armenian sources in which this word is attested. عُثمان (talk) 13:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The attested form is Բաղասճ-աց (Bałasč-acʻ, plural genitive), which can mean nominative *Բաղասիճ-ք (*Bałasič-kʻ) or your *Բաղասճի-ք (*Bałasči-kʻ). It has been shown by etymology that only the first one is correct.

Anyway, Old Armenian in general and Old Armenian toponymy in particular should be left to knowledgable users, these are very difficult topics. Vahag (talk) 13:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Oh OK, that is helpful to know! If you are able to help with this particular word, it would be much appreciated. The reason for my interest is that it is the origin of the word بلوچ, the name for the Baloch people and language. Even though this is probably quite a rare Armenian toponym, it has a lot of historical signifance outside of Armenia. عُثمان (talk) 13:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I made Բաղասիճք (Bałasičkʻ). It does not seem to be related to the ethnonym of Baluchis. Vahag (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Thank you! I am impressed by the amount of detail, this is very interesting. عُثمان (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the letter ր: [ɹ] or [ɾ]?

Hi!

I see a slight contradiction.

{{hy-pron}} transforms ր into '/ɹ/ [ɹ]' for both Eastern and Western.

But https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ր states that ր is pronounced [ɾ] in both Eastern (except Iran) and Western.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_alphabet states that ր is pronounced /ɹ/ in Eastern and /ɾ/ in Western.

Which one is correct? Fofofe (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This is @RagingPichu experimenting with the pronunciation module. He will correct it to /ɾ/ soon I suppose. Vahag (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. RagingPichu has corrected it in {{hy-pron}}. I have corrected it in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_alphabet. Please check it. Fofofe (talk) 21:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I will not touch Wikipedia. It is run by low-IQ sticklers. Vahag (talk) 08:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

անդրանիկ

Is there the possibility of the existence of an etymological link between անդրանիկ and Ανδρόνικος? Boghos1 (talk) 08:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

No, the similarity is accidental. Vahag (talk) 09:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Pseudo-scientific and false etymologies

I know that this is not the scope of your operations, but there are many narratives that have spread and are spreading within various Armenian communities that deal with etymologies in completely unscientific ways and it is obvious that they are using these etymologies for political utility. How is it possible to work in a collaborated manner so as to encourage the scientific and critical approach to providing etymologies and accept whatever the scientific research produces rather than go with preformed biases? Huge respect to the Ajarians, Jahukyans, and Martirosyans of this world. (Btw check people of ar on Facebook, some lunatic shit) 93.126.209.108 12:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

My study of humans has brought me to the conclusion that men are predestined at birth either to critical thinking, common sense and healthy scepticism, or to charlatanry, pseudo-science and confirmation bias. There is no point in arguing with the second group. They can't change, it's genetic. What we can do is putting out good research online for free to be found by the chosen ones. That is one of my main motivations for writing the Wiktionary. I will also gatekeep the oikumene section of Wiktionary from charlatans until I die. As for academia, I am afraid it will be lost to the barbarians. Vahag (talk) 18:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I highly respect your work, and I highly respect the quality of the etymologies of the Armenian entries. Thank you for your efforts and work. Sadly many Armenians are prone to pseudoscientific thought just to rationalize certain ends and claims that they have put in their minds prior to research 93.126.213.234 21:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, could you guide me to historical researches that tend to explain the conditions and reasons for the huge entry of loanwords from various Iranian languages (mainly Middle Persian and Parthian)? Or briefly tell me why 93.126.213.234 23:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

See here, from page 16. A superstrate shift of the Parthian-speaking ruling class of Armenia to Armenian as their primary language. Vahag (talk) 17:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Auto-conjugator and its status

hi, i just wanted to report on the current state of the auto-conjugator. the main difficulty lies in dealing with the two orthographies, and in exactly what tenses to include, given that armenian knows many more tenses than taught (e.g. նստած եմ, նստած կլինեմ, վազելիս եմ լինում, պահած ունեմ), but not all appearing with all verbs. my thought is to have the tenses as they are presented (with the addition of the հարակատար forms (stative?), which are too common to be excluded from the table) and then additional forms made with լինել proper would be represented in a greyed-out row with a note saying "additional, more complex tenses may be formed with future participle, simultaneous participle, or resultative participle + forms of լինել" and ignore the very rare forms with ունեմ. but what do you think? i would very strongly recommend adding the stative forms into the conjugation table, but the other point i am ambivalent on and will leave that decision entirely to you. either way you have the final word.

about the orthography, the main annoyance is actually that we're working in the reformed orthography, and is causing more of a headache than i expected. my eventual solution is actually to generate all the forms in the traditional orthography and then convert them to reformed, which i have to implement. this is much more efficient in my opinion, and then this begged the thought to me: why not do the same think wiktionary-wide? headwords being in the traditional orthography would allow for us to autoconvert to the other orthography accurately (correcting a few exceptions like երկուական for *երկվական and the frankly-bizarre եվրոպացի for *ևրոպացի), rather than having to manually enter it for each and every word, as the system we have now demands. the situation may be compared to chinese, where the mother country's system used by the numerical majority (simplified chinese characters) is not used as the headword, with traditional instead.

anyway, probably a few more weeks are needed, since i work on this admittedly rather sporadically due to my lack of infinite time. if any other difficulty or thought arises i will inform you, probably in this same thread. RagingPichu (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

About what forms to show in the table: I don't care, as long as the table looks pretty.

About orthography: the reformed one should be the main one for Modern Armenian. That is what 95% of users expect. Automatic conversion from TAO to RAO is impossible. It cannot know that մօր (mōr) becomes մոր (mor) but այսօր (aysōr) remains այսօր (aysōr). Vahag (talk) 17:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

կար

Concerning etymology 2 of the entry կար is it possible to add Persian كردن (kardan) as a related word or even as a possible source for կար (most probably a middle persian/middle iranian variation of it)? Since the North Kurdish kar- has been mentioned already, which most probably comes from Proto-Iranian kar which is also the origin of Persian كردن. It is interesting that Acharyan has mentioned the Sogdian kāδe, kāδī instead of the Middle Persian. 91.232.101.119 17:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten your question. I need more time to review the newer etymologies. Vahag (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Berytian IP, կար (kar) is now done. I am inclined towards the derivation from the Iranian "to do, make" root, but the sense development should be explained better. Vahag (talk) 18:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

միտ

Out of curiosity, is it logical to posit that միտ could be etymologically related to some derivation of PIE *men-, seeing the semantic similarity? 93.126.207.66 16:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

That has been suggested many times in the 19th century, but it is phonetically impossible. Proto-Indo-European *méntis would give **մին ~ **ման (**min ~ **man). Vahag (talk) 17:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Problems with internal linking to ـی on etymology section of pages

Hello, I was hoping you could help me solve an issue / mystery that has been preventing me from (or anyone else it seems) from using an internal link (e.g. ـه (-e)) to link to ـی on the etymology section of all pages that require it. For some reason it seems like I can successfully link it internally here, but it is not possible on the etymology section of pages. There are a great many pages that need to be linked there since they are for words that contain either the Persian -ī suffix (from Middle Persian -īg), or the Persian -īh suffix (from Middle Persian -īh) but in all of those pages, the internal link goes to ـی and not ـی. I have been trying to fix this for a while but was not able to.

A few examples where the internal link needs to go to ـی due to the presence of the Persian -ī suffix (from Middle Persian -īg), but goes to ـی instead: خورشیدی خیاطی تهرانی خوردنی تاریک زندانی قهوه‌ای فیروزه‌ای مغزپسته‌ای

A few examples where the internal link needs to go to ـی due to the presence of the Persian -īh suffix (from Middle Persian -īh), but goes to ـی instead: دوستی بزرگی جوانی باسوادی

Please note that this is barely the tip of the iceberg. There are much, much more pages that include these 2 suffixes, and I have yet to come across a singe one of them that does not link to the wrong page (i.e. ـی ). Not to mention, there is a third suffix in ـی which is the Persian -ē / -ī suffix (from Middle Persian -ēw, meaning a, one) which is also currently inaccessible via internal linking. One could theoretically work around this by using external linking to access ـی (like this: ـی), but that doesn't really solve the problem, and it looks ugly.

Additionally, the ـی page has become virtually inaccessible using google search, which I suspect is because of this same issue. If you search for the ـی wiktionary page using google, you will only come across ـی and not ـی (at least it is like that for me). The only way I can access ـی is either through bookmarking or searching for the Middle Persian -īg instead ofـی. Do you have any idea why this is, and/or how I can go about fixing this? Am I missing something? Please let me know, thanks.--MarkParker1221 (talk) 02:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@MarkParker1221: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2024/April § Arabic-script affixes Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2022/June § Can we settle whether affixes in Arabic-script languages should be lemmatized with or without ـ , e.g. ـی vs. ی? Rather @Benwing2, Fenakhay will fix this, Vahagn is not experienced in this respect. Fay Freak (talk) 03:20, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@MarkParker1221, Fay Freak: We can change whether to remove the tatweel or not, but does that make sense? Affixes in Arabic are never shown with a tatweel, and it seems odd to me. I’m not sure about Persian. How are affixes usually listed in Persian dictionaries? — Fenakhay ^{(حيطي · مساهماتي)} 03:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fenakhay: We do it already with the exception of page and category names, in etymology links, e.g. كُتْلَوِيّ (kutlawiyy), and headers, which is inconsistent; I do find the Category:Arabic suffixes better to read though with tatweel.

In the literature I see either, though note that in print tatweels and hyphens are indistinguishable. A clear example of this is Ewald, Georg Heinrich August (1831) Grammatica critica linguae arabicae, cum brevi metrorum doctrina‎^[2] (in Latin), volume 1, Leipzig: Libraria Hahniana, page 22, is this sketchy to you? Arne Ambros Einführung in die arabische Schriftsprache der Gegenwart (an 1980s book still great to learn Arabic as a German speaker) uses no hyphen or tatweel, but if he says “Endung ة” it is clear from the context what it is, while Wolfdietrich Fischer seems to avoid writing affixes completely outside of transcriptions (where it has hyphens then, because Roman script) or examples, but when writing about the script, the harakat are above the same black stroke as in Ewald, as if nothing had changed in two hundred years. Very pertinent of course is Diem, Werner (1979) “Untersuchungen zur frühen Geschichte der arabischen Orthographie I. Die Schreibung der Vokale”, in Orientalia (in German), volume 48, number 2, →DOI, page 256: ت – -āt — ه – -ah, but I think this only works because the affix nature is already shown by the Romanization so you don’t need a tatweel but only put a hyphen once.

In bilingual texts however, if not monolingual ones too which we are not however, you always need something in the text (not context) that says “here comes an affix”, which would bring about with ـ. If you don’t find it in Arabic linguistic literature then because somebody has to name the affix an affix, prefix, suffix, transfix, which is not given in all environments of Wiktionary: category names, category pages, etymologies which contain no word but {{af}}, headers, page names. Fay Freak (talk) 04:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fenakhay, Fay Freak:In Persian dictionaries like Dehkhoda, neither a hyphen or Kashida (aka Tatweel) is used. Instead a suffix (پسوند) or prefix label (پیشوند), is put in the front of the entry as in the following example (entry for وند):

(پسوند) چون در آخر کلمات درآید افادهٔ معنی «مند» کند، چون: بیدادوند، پولادوند، خداوند، خردوند. (انجمن آرا) (آنندراج). صاحب و مالدار. (برهان)

Note: The label is supposed to be on the left side but unfortunately few websites can typographically handle a right sided font and a left sided font in the same text, and Wiktionary is not one of them.

However, when referring to the مند suffix in the above entry, no specific indication is given that it is a suffix and one is expected to use context to infer. This is the way it has always been. Historically, Persian dictionaries did not put anything at all to distinguish affixes from other entries. Take for instance Loqat e fors by Asadi e Tusi where he just introduces affixes as any other entry (e.g. the دیس suffix entry).

I have never heard of using a Kashida for the purpose of distinguishing affix entries from other entries. The Kashida is mostly used in calligraphy. Although I don't think the hyphen has much precedent of serving that purpose in Persian lexicography either, so I think we should look at other factors when deciding, such as how easily accessible the entry will be. Everyone knows how to find a hyphen on a keyboard, but a Kashida is much harder to access and not many people even know such a character exists. Also, if the Kashida is the reason I cant internally link to the ـی page, then why is the problem still present even when I copy and paste the character which presumably would include the Kashida (or hyphen)? MarkParker1221 (talk) 23:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Since we don’t do calligraphy online, it is there in Unicode for singling out text. The kašīda is just Shift + J on Linux. The ZWNJ is also just a higher level on the space bar and knowledge of either is to be expected for people computer-literate in Persian. Editors also have editing tools and readers, and editors, get {{also}} at the top of the page linking the suffix.

As implied by linking the discussions, the plan is to drop the ـ in links not. Currently Arabic has no problem because all entries are without the kašīda or hyphen and it is dropped in links, only used as delimiters in affix templates (e.g. so it even knows what a suffix or prefix is). For Persian the same happens but only the entry of this one suffix has already been moved to a page-title with kašīda, perhaps because not every editor sees the same intra-site dynamics. In Ottoman there is no problem because all page-titles of affixes have the kašīda so the modules are set to drop it not in links. The broader problem is inconsistency between languages so for all reasons given it appears that we will do it as in Ottoman in all Arabic-script languages. It is good to be aware how they did it in the Middle Ages but after all they lacked punctuation altogether, and even modern linguistic works don’t do exactly this kind of internet dictionary, though I wonder about Westernized linguistics book written in Arabic, perhaps writing down African languages in dedicated Arabic script. Fay Freak (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

ծուռ

Can an etymology for ծուռ be entered, since Ajarian has already suggested a native etymology being PIE *g'uro-. Additionally, could a link with կոր be suggested since կոր's possible native etymology possibly seems to be the similar PIE *gowh₁-ro- from PIE *gew 185.76.176.56 16:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to do it at the moment. In any case, ծուռ (cuṙ) is not related to կոր (kor). կ (k) comes from PIE *g or *gʷ. ծ (c) comes from PIE *ǵ. Vahag (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Old Armenian

Hi colleague, I simply copied down the Proto-Armenian available roots in other pages and corrected what I thought it was a mistake in PIE on the basis of the full declension available. I never attempt reconstructions by myself here on Wiktionary since I'm not an academician, even if a have a background in proto-languages; what's more is that I prefer to work with sources such as papers and etymological dictionaries to avoid errors and quote sources here. Some time ago I had a discussion about a presumable "self-attempt" in Proto-Italic but I was simply applying a fixed rule and, at the same time, my colleagues agreed we needed official guidelines for Proto-Italic. I am a self-patrolled user on Wiki.it, by the way, so I rarely mess around.

We could put so much more in Proto-Armenian (there is almost nothing here on Wiktionary), but resources for this proto-language are scarce on internet; by contrast, Old Armenian is well documented and studied. Have a nice day :) Cicognac (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Please don't copy down random stuff. There is a lot of shit floating around, some produced by younger me. "Proto-Armenian" is meaningless because it has only one descendant. Vahag (talk) 15:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, one could understand the link between PIE and Old Armenian (Proto-Armenian, see Proto-Albanian for instance) one day in the future. As for pre-available roots in Proto-Armenian or whatever it is, don't panic, I won't work with Armenian for a bit. In the (hopefully not far) future I'll concentrate my efforts on Old Armenian, which is attested and well studied, but before that I must learn to read Classical Armenian, which is something I am willing do to. Bye! Cicognac (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Ո as o/vo

yo big vahagn whatsup my brother. I had a question concerning the pronunciation of the Armenian letter ո (o/vo). In the following developments, PIE *h₃ésth₁ >PIE *Host-wer-> Arm. oskr, PIE *pódm̥ > Arm. otn, PIE *porḱos > Arm. ors, PIE *p was canceled in its development into armenian and the o sound succeeding the *p, remained in Armenian (same case with *Host-wer-). How did this o sound transform into an initial vo sound where otn, oskr, and ors become pronounced as votn, voske, and vors.

Big thanks my g, Love from beirut 141.138.187.114 10:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

In Krapar times, in general ո and ե had a pronunciation like u͜o and i͜e. The words ոտն, ոսկի, թոռն, գոռամ will be used as examples henceforth. They are originally pronounced u͜otən, u͜oski, tʰu͜orən, gu͜oram. At the beginning of a word, these hardened to become wu͜o and yi͜e in many (but not all) dialects, and then w generally changed to v in almost every dialect over the past few centuries. Then, in every dialect, unstressed u͜o and i͜e became o and e (the diphthong was probably always weak outside of stress anyway). Some dialects changed stressed u͜o and i͜e further, like both standard languages.

Now we have four main groups (ignoring consonant shifts):

• vu͜ot voski tʰu͜or goram (many village dialects)
• vot voski tʰor goram (Early Modern literary Armenian koiné, ancestor of both SEA and SWA)
• vu͜ot oski tʰu͜or goram (village dialects in Central Armenia)
• vot oski tʰor goram (urban dialects in Central Armenia)

The actual picture is obviously much more complex. Խորհուրդ կու տամ, որ Հրաչեայ Աճառեանին Հայ Բարբառագիտութիւն կարդաս․ քեզի շատ պիտի հետաքրքրէ։ Կուկլով փնտռես նէ կը գտնես։

Thus we can say that the initial v is the remnant of a diphthongic onglide that used to be generally present in the language. 2600:1011:A10C:3827:1135:3391:2B65:76E7 03:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Big thanks my g. Love your contributions. Btw most of the beirut IP comments are from me. 141.138.187.114 09:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the 2600 IP is not me, but I am glad he gave you a good answer.

Note that in Armenian dialectological notation diphthongized u͜o and i͜e are written as ո and ե, whereas monophthong o and e are written as օ and է. So in the dialectal forms of լակոտ (lakot) you have both լագոդ and լագօդ.

Note also how foreigners sometimes transcribe diphthongized u͜o and i͜e as uo and ie. For example, թրեֆ (tʻref) is written as th’rief here. Vahag (talk) 11:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

հապիպի լանն, տաշախներդ ըլլայի ես քու։ ԹԱԳԱՒՈՐ 185.81.140.127 14:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Armenian occupational surnames

Hi Vahagn, I would like to ask if it's possible for you to add a couple of occupational surnames I found in the Dictionary of Armenian Surnames by Tigran Avetisyan, namely Շիշեճյան and Քեֆենջյան. I take the opportunity to thank you for your precious work in the Wiktionary community. Samubert96 (talk) 10:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Vahag (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Your favourite historical figures

Who are your favourite historical figures? Are you more of an Ancient history or Modern history guy? PUC – 09:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The likes of Cardinal Richelieu. Definitely, Ancient history. If you noticed, I even avoid using new country names such as "Azerbaijan" or "Turkey". Vahag (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

translation

What's Armenian for "Breastwork"? Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 20:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

For such technical terms you should consult the polytechnic dictionary here. It gives հողապատնեշ (hoġapatneš). Vahag (talk) 20:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Спасибо) Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 20:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Это сложное слово? հող + -ա- +պատնեշ Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 21:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Да, հողապատնեշ (hoġapatneš). Vahag (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Я на вас надеюсь, побольше таких слов в Викисловаре Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 14:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Зря надеетесь :) Я не люблю литературные слова, которые никто не использует. Vahag (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

я люблю Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

вам известно Этимология города Нидже? Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 18:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

А что это за город? Может, удинский Нидж? Vahag (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

да Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Тут есть несколько версий, но как я уже говорил, этимологии древних топонимов спорны. Мы не можем знать значение топонима. По форме много чего может подходить. Vahag (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Вопрос стоит ли мне писать слова, которые ты используешь в речи? И ещё я не знаю, как написать на (арм) алфавите — восточном или западном? Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 16:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Разговорные слова можно добавлять, если они удовлетворяют WT:CFI. Нужно писать восточной орфографией, кроме слов и форм, употребляющихся исключительно в западноармянском (например, թէմպէլ (tʻēmpēl)). Vahag (talk) 17:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

проблематика — (слово должно быть подтверждено как минимум тремя независимыми источниками, которые демонстрируют его использование в течение как минимум года) Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 18:09, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

печалька :( Vahag (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Galstyan Karen Artyushovich Что это за странная форма կունել (kunel)? Vahag (talk) 20:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Оно часто встречается в интернете, особенно в контексте "կունեմ" Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 21:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

В интернете иногда в шутку так пишут имитируя русскоговорящую речь. Не будет же мы создавать статью для каждой шуточной формы? Их — бесконечность. Извини, но я удаляю статью. Vahag (talk) 09:18, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Хорошо удаляйте но даже многие армяне пишут "կունեմ" не зная что они неправильно пишут, как то один раз был конфликт с армянином;

Я спросил его, тогда как будет "кунел" по-армянски. Он пишет: "Կունել". Я ему говорю: "Нет". Он спрашивает: "Как?". Я ему пишу: "քունել". В ответе он пишет: "Ебат ты тупой. Ты еще на литературном бы сказал". Он узнал, что я из РФ, а он: "Он мне еще чето за армянский алфавит предъявляет". Я живу в Армении, говорю на этом языке, сдал экзамен по нему, учу его. А он мне что-то предъявляет. Русня. Русня. Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 09:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Вопрос как мне понять, были ли слова в грабаре или они только в современном армянском? Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Надо смотреть в словарях грабара {{R:xcl:NHB}} и {{R:xcl:AB}}. Vahag (talk) 15:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Может ли этимология слова "կակազ" быть звукоподражательной? Ведь повторение слога "ка" напоминает заикание, эти запинки и повторения звуков. Кстати, в турецком тоже есть похожее слово "kekelemek", значение тоже самое — заикание. Как думаешь? Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 14:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Так и есть. Смотри этимологический словарь. Vahag (talk) 16:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

thank you

thank you very much for the help with the template and the "curcur" entry Slowcuber7 (talk) 11:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

👍 Vahag (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation of իջնել: [it͡ʃʰnél] or [id͡ʒnél]?

Hi! I see a slight contradiction in իջնել. On the one hand, the pronunciation is currently [it͡ʃʰnél]. On the other hand, the reference Dum-Tragut, Jasmine (2009) states that [id͡ʒnél] ("[idʒnɛl]") is correct.

And many thanks, your contributions are highly appreciated 🙏 Fofofe (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

It is [it͡ʃʰnél], of course. Dum-Tragut would have known if she talked to a native speaker instead of relying on prescriptive sources from 70s. Vahag (talk) 08:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Fofofe (talk) 08:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Etymology of Աստված

Hi! I see that you undid my revisions to the etymology of this word, and I'm wondering why this was done. My suggestion was based on a plausible connection to Avestan astvaṱ (“embodiment”), from the name of the Zoroastrian cosmic Savior (messiah): Astvaṱ.ərəta. The phonological alignment between the two words is almost perfectly 1:1. Also, given the significant cultural and religious influence of Zoroastrianism on Armenia for almost one thousand years (see Russell, 1987 and Boyce, 1982), this etymology is objectively well-supported, especially when considering similar borrowings in the religious sphere like hrashakert from Avestan frašō.kərəti as well as transference of Zoroastrian names into Armenian (Anahit, Aramazd, Vahagn, Mher, etc.) and myriad religious concepts into Armenian Christianity (Russell 1987). The phonological and semantic alignment between Avestan astvaṱ and Armenian astvac strengthens the likelihood of direct borrowing, unlike more speculative alternatives.

I understand there are other proposed etymologies, such as the hypothetical Anatolian compound Aššu-Tiwaz. However, these are highly speculative, relying on unverified reconstructions and hypothetical theonyms that are not known to have existed. Additionally, there is less documented historical or linguistic interaction between Armenian and Anatolian cultures in this context, making these alternatives less plausible. By contrast, Old Armenian adopted nearly 1,400 words from Iranian languages (Meyer 2023). So the phonological and semantic alignment, alongside documented historical contact, make Avestan astvaṱ a strong candidate for consideration. 173.48.97.83 16:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That is not you suggestion. It is Lagarde's suggestion from 163 years ago. It has been rejected in Armenology because direct Avestan borrowings in Armenian are impossible. There is not a single example. All the the borrowings you mentioned are from Middle Iranian languages such as Parthian and Middle Persian. As far as I can tell, this Astvaṱ.ərəta is not attested in those languages. Next, there is no phonological alignment because of ծ (c). In fact, there is not a single Iranian borrowing containing ծ (c). Finally, Astvaṱ.ərəta, literally "corporeal *Hr̥tás", is a learned epithet created by Zoroastrians to describe their future human saviour. It is unlikely to have been adopted as the standard word for "god" among Armenians.

In short, your preferred theory does not deserve to be mentioned outside of the footnote to where I have now confined it. Vahag (talk) 18:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Actually, Aramazd was borrowed from an Old Iranian form, and it was borrowed again from Middle Iranian as Որմիզդ Ormizd. Other religious vocabulary seems to have borrowed from Old Iranian, such as բագին bagin and մեհեան mehean. Second, there is nearly perfect 1:1 phonological alignment between astvaṱ and astvac (this paper suggests Avestan ṱ was pronounced *ts). Even if it was borrowed from an unattested Middle Iranian intermediary (the Middle Iranian priests may have simply used the Avestan word), it is only a minor assimilation compared to the grace that is being given to Martirosyan's etymology Aššu-Tiwaz, which is far less plausible. The phonetic transformations required to go from Aššu-Tiwaz to astvac involve multiple speculative shifts that are far more complex and unsupported, and more importantly there is literally no attestation to any God among Anatolians or Armenians by such a name. The God is a pure creation of Martirosyan's imagination. By the same logic, where is a single example of Anatolian z becoming ծ in Armenian; or, where is a single established example of any Anatolian religious borrowing into Armenian?

Finally, cult epithets have commonly come to replace theonyms among Iranians (the epithet Anahita meaning "immaculate" from earlier 'Aredvi Sura Anahita', the goddess' name being Aredvi; the epithet Apam Napat "Lord of the waters' from an epithet of the Iranian god *Vorouna, etc.). The name of the Saoshyant would have been invoked regularly among Zoroastrians during prayers, like the Amesha Spentas and yazatas, and just like Shia Muslims invoke Imam Zaman, Ali, and other figures in prayer and colloquial phraseology in addition to Allah. But unlike the Amesha spentas and yazatas, astvaṱ lacked a concrete identity and therefore was not seen as a fully realized 'pagan' god. Thus, his name which might not have been perceived as contradictory to Christian monotheism, his sacred and transformative role might blur the lines between human and divine in some interpretations. This allowed his invocation to persist among Armenians, to the exclusion of words like Aramazd, and also alongside the Amesha spentas Haurvatat and Ameretat, who also lived on in Armenian culture as xorot and morot through semantic shifts.

I appreciate your input as this complex topic certainly merits deeper exploration. However, I believe the phonological and semantic plausibility of Lagarde's and my suggestion remains considerably stronger than the alternatives. 173.48.97.83 05:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The idea of a direct Avestan borrowing in Armenian is preposterous, drop it. բագին (bagin) and մեհեան (mehean) are normal Middle Iranian borrowings. Արամազդ (Aramazd) should be looked at again (could be an early Middle Iranian borrowing) but in any case when they say "Old Iranian" in an Armenian context they mean Old Persian or Old Median.

Martirosyan's preferred etymology never fully convinced me, but your preferred one is even worse.

It looks like you like pushing fringe Iranian theories for various words, e.g. at بورك (börek). Are you Irman's American cousin or something? Vahag (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Having nationalists gatekeep etymologies should be banned. Clearly you are biased as you are pushing a conspiracy theory about a non-existent God named Aššu-Tiwaz that is purely a figment of an Armenian nationalist's imagination and wildly unaligned phonologically with astvac, lol. You should start a scientology-adjacent church about your god. Also not a great look when you plainly cannot provide an intellectual discourse to my arguments, instead crying "drop it". Aramazd is accepted as Old Iranian (laughing at your "early Middle Iranian" spin), as are a handful of other non-religious Old Iranian words in Armenian. Also I never thought I'd see the day an Armenian is defending and propagating Turkish propaganda; you sell out your own people too, eh? 173.48.97.83 15:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Tribalism, including the extrapolation of recent strifes supported by recent ideologies, notably ignoring that nationalism itself only arose in the 19th century, when before most classes just shut their traps and let elites, who had learnt to have the necessary distance, deal with things, rather than to develop popular consciousness, is exactly not intellectual discourse, but the sectarianism you charge the other party with. Religion altogether is an indirect scheme to make people behave in a certain way by framing generalized ethical claims into a just-so story and apriorizing that which begs the question: Coleman's Boat. You should not take it literal, you are only supposed to. Its allegiances are intended to be loose, as to provide exercises in interpretation, rousing the maladroit imagination for quick, more often less than correct, recognition of various cases of life: exegesis. There were times, and continue to be times, where you just died when your pattern recognition wasn’t in alignment swiftly enough, sure, and thus man fails to see through exchanges of groups exceeding the complexity of two Dunbar's numbers.

For refining the intellect and social values you have to see the group exchanges impartially first, as if you don’t belong to an ethnicity. Often from the particulars you can’t reasonably but only deceptively make any political points anyway. If you absist from the fundamental attribution error you notice that the opportunities of the environment have accomplished more than the weltanschauungen and religions altogether. Döner is Turkish and is still German. No need to explain it, as an autochthonous Prussian dish, from Dönekes. In reality dishes and gods do not bastardize as human offspring does when, say, an Armenian and an Azerbaijani, or a purebred Armenian and purebred Iranian in idealized antiquity, have a child (blasphemy!!!), though you be concerned anyhow that they don’t as well.

Although I will now probably diffuse just this excellent fabrication, that Döner is the simplex of Döntje +‎ -er, elsewhere, just as to Bavarian Nazi cosplayers I will point out the true circumstance that the traditional custome of Bavaria has been introduced by Westphalian Jews at the beginning of the last century, to provoke reflection about the fallacies of the human mind, that stoops to declaring everything strange a conspiracy, or was it the allistic mind, that always is engaged with reinforcing social status, and lies by omission about the inanity of the status quo, incapable to provide for the merits of the other perspective, to maximize the motivation of the ingroup. You work with very primary affects rather than intellectually, even if consistent with your beliefs. Fay Freak (talk) 14:05, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

սկսած adverb?

Hi! Isn't սկսած (since, starting from) a postposition instead of an adverb? Fofofe (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably. I am famously bad at identifying parts of speech. Vahag (talk) 16:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Fofofe (talk) 10:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

վրձին IPA pronunciation

The վրձին page with the transliteration of vrjin, for its pronunciation "վըրցին" is used instead. There is a mismatch of the page's spelling of վրձին versus վըրցին which is used for the pronunciation. I do not find a source for the Armenian word "վըրցին" anywhere. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 13:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Is this you? Vahag (talk) 13:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

No, sorry. I am not on Youtube, lol. ElkandAcquerne (talk) 13:45, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Some words are pronounced differently than written. This is one of them. Vahag (talk) 13:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, great thank you for the comment. Is this common with certain spellings like words spelled with consonant clusters? ElkandAcquerne (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Vahag (talk) 13:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Critique of Ajarian

What do you think when Nina G. Garsoian says in 1970 that HAB is "difficultly procurable" and noted that "not all of his etymologies have proved acceptable." and when Rüdiger Schmitt says that HAB is "unreliable as far as the Iranian evidence is concerned." 93.126.209.168 00:46, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It was and still is difficultly procurable outside Armenia in physical form, but is now freely available online. The etymologies and the cited Iranian evidence are somewhat dated. HAB was written at the beginning of the 20th century; PIE laryngeals, Anatolian languages and the Iranian texts discovered in Central Asia were not widely circulating yet. Even so, a competent etymologist can look at Acharian's etymologies under the light of new evidence and modify them as necessary. Most of his etymologies still hold true. HAB's philological sections, i.e. the meanings and places of attestation of a word, and the sections on the dialectal descendants of each Old Armenian word are unsurpassed to this day.

In reality, Westoids who are complaining about HAB are the ones who cannot read Modern Armenian or understand HAB's dense structure. If an Armenologist does not quote HAB, I do not take him seriously. Vahag (talk) 15:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Big respect as always Vahag 93.126.208.170 16:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

-ց/-ցի

If -ցի is from *-skiyo (*-sko-+*-iyo-) and ց- is potentially from *-sko- , is it possible yo link the Wiktionary page of -ցի with -ց, as descendants from the same root(?)? 212.101.251.243 12:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't remember if those are from the same PIE suffix and I don't want to review the literature now, sorry. Vahag (talk) 13:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

big respect anyways 212.101.251.180 17:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Этимология слов մխոց и մխեմ

Привет, Вааг. Я заметил, что в статье о մխոց есть пересылка на еще несозданную статью մխեմ и хотел спросить тебя о дальнейшей этимологии. Я в последнее время листаю этимологии санскритских слов, преимущественно словарь Кристиануса Корнелиса Уленбека "Kurzgefaßtes etymologisches Wörterbuch der altindischen Sprache", заметил, что его версия об этимологии слова मुख (лицо) здесь еще не упомянута в मुख#Etymology_5 и хотел спросить тебя что ты думаешь об этом родстве (मुख ~ մխեմ), которое я собираюсь добавить в статью о санскритском слове здесь, и намекают ли доступные тебе армянские словари на это? Я перешел по твоей ссылке чуть выше на словарь nayiri.com, вставил մխեմ и получил стр. 529, но я не понимаю армянский (только буквы распознаю) и не уверен где именно на этой странице лемма, к которой относится մխեմ? Это մխկիլ ()? Уленбек кстати относит сюда и др.-гр. μῠχός, которое и Майрхофер считает родственным, но почему-то Майрхофер не приводит армянское слово, которое Уленбек отыскал. Это слово մխեմ только в грабаре или и в современном армянском языке встречается? Оно означает засовываю, впихываю? Bogorm converſation 10:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм, давно не виделись. Смотри մխեմ (mxem). Идея связать эти слова принадлежит Бугге. Мне она не нравится ни семантически, ни формально. Варварскя фонема -х- чужда исконным армянским словам. Встречается в заимствованиях и в звукоподражаниях. По моему мнению, մուխ- (mux-) является идеофоном. Vahag (talk) 12:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Request Regarding Not Reverting My Edits Aimed At Tidying UP Wiktionary Pages Ising Templates

I Was Just Tidying Up By Adding Template "bor=1" In My Last Armenian Edit... Kindly Don't Revert It Back!!! Dibyayoti176255 (talk) 03:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Kindly read the documentation of {{bor}} and {{inh}} and don't stick it at everything you see. Vahag (talk) 09:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

On orovayn

Out of interest and due to my inability in finding a response, I wanted to ask, how can որո- or որով- be from *krop-, o-grade of *krep-? I am especially interested in the initial *k becoming o, when it generally develops into k. The *p>o isn't that crazy seeing *pṓds eventually becoming otn (but isn't *p>o only for initial *p?) and since also *p becomes w after a vowel (is it the case here).

Thanks in advance 93.126.210.216 19:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

See now որովայն (orovayn). Proto-Indo-European *-Vp becomes Old Armenian -ւ (-w) Vahag (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Entry Աղեղնավոր deleted

Hi! I was about to create the entry Աղեղնավոր (more precisely to split the entry աղեղնավոր into աղեղնավոր and Աղեղնավոր) but I see that you deleted Աղեղնավոր a few years ago. Shouldn't we have two different entries աղեղնավոր and Աղեղնավոր like առյուծ/Առյուծ and so on? Fofofe (talk) 12:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead, split it. Vahag (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Done. I will split the other signs later. Fofofe (talk) 13:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Քո

Isn't it possible that քո/քեզ are from some derivation of PIE *swé, due to the well known *sw>k' development, and the semantic proximity 93.126.209.90 21:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no semantic proximity. One means "your, you", the other means "self". Vahag (talk) 08:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

ok. Another question, Im generally interested in the shift from both *sw- and *tw- to k'. We know that *w>g, and since that's the case, are the initial *t and *s, influencing the succeeding *w to transform into k' (unvoiced velar) rather than g (voiced velar)? Is that the case here 93.126.212.178 13:46, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know the details. Vahag (talk) 14:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair. Could you guide me to a source that could explain this more or less? 93.126.212.178 14:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This tweet. Vahag (talk) 14:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

thanks big V 91.232.101.253 15:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Hossep Dolatian (ed.). 2024. Adjarian’s Armenian dialectology (1911): Translation and commentary (Languages of the Caucasus 4). Berlin: Language Science Press.

https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/385 ɶLerman (talk) 10:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I know, congratulations to @Hovsepig! Vahag (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

🗿 ɶLerman (talk) 12:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Merci jan. I shall spam Wikipedia with it 😀 Hovsepig (talk) 14:31, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

You can also spam Wiktionary using Template:R:hy:Dolatian:2024. Vahag (talk) 14:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Redundancy in verbs containing templates hy-decl-verb and hy-conj-xx at the same time

Hi! See տեղեկանալ, հետևել and so on. The declension of the nominalized infinitive is already included in the hy-conj-xx templates (at least hy-conj-ալ and hy-conj-ել), so that the declension of the nominalized infinitive appears twice in such entries. May I remove the template hy-decl-verb and the declension section from such entries, since the templates hy-conj seem more complete? Fofofe (talk) 21:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

You can remove them, those are leftovers from olden times. Vahag (talk) 09:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Done. There are no more entries using the template hy-decl-verb. To be deleted? Fofofe (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Maladets! Vahag (talk) 09:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Bullet or asterisk?

Hi! It seems that the first asterisk at the bottom of the tables which come from Armenian templates is rendered with a bullet:

• colloquial **dated

instead of

* colloquial **dated

and so on. Fofofe (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It is fixed now. Vahag (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. There are some bullets left in nouns based on {{hy-noun-ան-եր}} (տուն, ձմեռ), {{hy-noun-ություն}} (գեղեցկություն), etc. 😊 Fofofe (talk) 00:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Those are fixed too. Vahag (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Fofofe (talk) 16:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Still one bullet in nouns based on {{hy-noun-ան-ներ}} (վիժում). I fixed the template source code based on what you did for the other templates. Fofofe (talk) 18:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

About my last contributions

Hi! I have studied your corrections thoroughly. Sorry, I wasn't aware of the intricacies of the pronunciation of the inflected forms. So, without adding pronunciation to inflected forms anymore, I will just finish these tasks:

- removing accusatives and genitives from nouns;

- correcting some erroneous pronunciations by adding W=0 to locatives and ablatives. Fine? Fofofe (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

That's still a bot work, but if you want to spend your valuable time on it, fine. Vahag (talk) 09:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 17:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Done! I have checked every single noun inflection. What I did additionally:

- replacing {{inflection of}} by {{noun form of}},

- correcting "def" tag's syntax,

- correcting typos, bad radixes, bad cases, red links (I have found only one red link: օրգաններ in սեռական օրգաններ),

- asking you questions about what I could not fix by myself, thanks by the way.

From now on, I am going to make a break 😊 Then I will continue fixing some little things I noticed during my previous tasks such as "blue link in <lemma> which leads to <inflected form> but no Armenian section there" (e.g. https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=կողմն&diff=prev&oldid=82952430). Fofofe (talk) 13:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your service 🫡 Vahag (talk) 14:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

My pleasure! Fofofe (talk) 19:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I did that too:

- correcting syntax for possessive {{noun form of}}, following գիրքդ as you suggested. Fofofe (talk) 20:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Ablative of կամուրջ?

On the one hand: կամուրջից in կամուրջ. On the other hand: կամրջից in կամրջից. Which one is correct? Fofofe (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Both are acceptable. Vahag (talk) 09:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again. Fofofe (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

մրցում: wrong synonym

See մրցում. մրցել cannot not be a synonym, can it? But I don't know what it is... Fofofe (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I meant to put it under Related terms, thanks for catching. Vahag (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Glad to help! Fofofe (talk) 19:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Right syntax for possessive {{noun form of}}

Is it

nominative singular second-person possessive form of բան (ban)

as in բանդ or

nominative singular second-person possessive of գիրք (girkʻ)

as in գիրքդ? Fofofe (talk) 19:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the second, for consistency with the syntax of other inflected forms. Vahag (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That sounds fair. Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 11:40, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Plural of սպի: սպիներ or սպիեր?

Hi! On the one hand, սպիներ in սպի. On the other hand, սպիեր in սպիեր. Fofofe (talk) 12:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Those who pronounce it as the prescribed disyllabic [əspí], say սպիներ (spiner) and write սպիներ (spiner). Those who pronounce it as the proscribed but de facto standard monosyllabic [spi], say սպիեր (spier) but may write as սպիներ (spiner). So, both are acceptable. Vahag (talk) 13:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for both your interesting answer and your modifications. Fofofe (talk) 13:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

ունկդիրներ

Shouldn't this entry have been named ունկնդիրներ, plural of ունկնդիր? Fofofe (talk) 13:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

You found another typo, thanks. Vahag (talk) 14:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

👍 Fofofe (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Asterisked notes without asterisked referrer in templates

Hi! See for instance արժել and one of his template Template:hy-արժեմ: in the defective negative conjugation table, there is a note "*dated" but there is no "referrer" at all, I mean there is no form in the table which refers to this note. In my humble opinion the note should not be displayed. I made a list of templates where this occurs:

- Template:hy-արժեմ

In "defective negative conjugation EA", no referrer.

- Template:hy-արժեմ-TAO

In "defective negative conjugation EA TO", no referrer.

- Template:hyw-կրնամ

In "defective negative conjugation WA", no referrer.

- Template:hy-conj-ալ

This one is very tricky because the asterisked note is displayed for both "-al conjugation EA" and "-al negative conjugation EA" at the same time due to the template's code but in some verbs like ծիծաղալ only the asterisked note in "-al conjugation EA" has a referrer due to the parameters of the template's call 🥵

- Template:hy-conj-ալ-TAO

More or less the same problem. See կարդալ (referrer only in "plain -al conjugation EA"), թանալ (no referrer at all), ստանալ (referrer in "plain -al conjugation EA" and "plain -al negative conjugation EA").

- Template:hyw-conj-ալ

More or less the same problem. See կարդալ (referrer only in "plain -al conjugation WA"), թանալ (no referrer at all).

- Template:hyw-conj-սոսկ-ալ

In "suffixed -al conjugation WA", no referrer.
In "suffixed -al negative conjugation WA", no referrer.
But can a verb based on this template have a referrer due to his parameters (caus=on, verbose parameter with *, etc.)?

- Template:hyw-conj-սոսկ-ալ-ցի

In "irregular suffixed -al conjugation WA", no referrer.
In "irregular suffixed -al negative conjugation WA", no referrer.
But can a verb based on this template have a referrer due to his parameters (caus=on, verbose parameter with *, etc.)?

- Template:hyw-conj-ել

In "plain -el conjugation WA", no referrer.
In "plain -el negative conjugation WA", no referrer.
Very tricky: խածնել has a referrer inside a parameter, in the template's call! {{hyw-conj-ել|խածն||խած|imp1=[[խա՛ծ]], [[խածի՛ր]]* [...] }}.

- Template:hyw-conj-սոսկ-ել

In "suffixed -el conjugation WA", no referrer.
In "suffixed -el negative conjugation WA", no referrer.

- Template:hyw-conj-իլ

In "plain -il conjugation WA", no colloquial referrer.
In "plain -il negative conjugation WA", no colloquial referrer nor dated referrer.

- Template:hyw-conj-սոսկ-իլ

In "suffixed -il conjugation WA", no referrer.
In "suffixed -il negative conjugation WA", no referrer.

- Template:hyw-conj-ձն-ել

In "{{{type}}} conjugation", no referrer.
In "{{{type}}} negative conjugation", no referrer. Fofofe (talk) 09:18, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

A user has has promised us a new Armenian conjugator. It's not worth our time polishing the old templates. Vahag (talk) 17:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Fine. Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

դարձնել: misrendering

There is "{{{type}}}" in the conjugation table's titles. The problem comes probably from the Template:hyw-conj-ձն-ել itself. Fofofe (talk) 09:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Vahag (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again. Fofofe (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Param in template {{hy-noun-ի-եր}}

See Հյուսիսային ծով. Is this parameter 'section=II.A.3' valid in {{hy-noun-ի-եր|section=II.A.3|unc=on}}? Fofofe (talk) 23:23, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

It was meant to go in the next section. Vahag (talk) 14:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 07:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Right syntax for Derived terms

Hi! I found at least three:

In գյուղատնտես
* {{l|hy|գյուղատնտեսություն}}
* {{l|hy|գյուղատնտեսական}}

In գյուղ
{{der3|hy|գյուղական|գյուղացի|գեղցի|գեղացի|գյուղատնտես}}

In տարի
{{col-auto|hy|Նոր Տարի|լուսատարի|տարեդարձ|ուսումնական տարի}}

Which one should be used? Fofofe (talk) 08:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I guess the alphabetical sorting is automatically rendered? Fofofe (talk) 08:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the third one, it sorts alphabetically and assigns the right number of columns. Vahag (talk) 08:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Great! Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 11:59, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Collocation composed of an inflected form

Hi! Should I add the collocation եղունգների մկրատ to the entry եղունգ or եղունգների?

And should I add the derived term եղունգների մկրատ to the entry եղունգ or եղունգների? Fofofe (talk) 22:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

եղունգ PUC – 23:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Done. Fofofe (talk) 07:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)