User talk:Chalk19

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Again, welcome! 2022.01.17. Wiktionary

Welcome

Welcome Chalk19! How exciting to have el.wikt administrators contributing here too! Our administrator for Modern Greek is Saltmarsh. We are at your disposal for any questions. Thanks!‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 22:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Surnames

Hello. Wiktionary does not have a policy on foreign surnames. See Talk:Джигарханян and Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2023/September#Inclusion_policy_regarding_given_names?. I beleive it is not a good idea to include ტერ-პეტროსიანი (ṭer-ṗeṭrosiani) in Category:Georgian surnames unless there are Ter-Petrosyans living in Georgia. Vahag (talk) 10:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Vahagn Petrosyan. From a brief look at internet it seems that there is a record/entry from the National Statistics Office of Georgia about a certain Gevorg Ter-Petrosian living or working at Ozurgeti, Guria, Georgia ("ტერ-პეტროსიანი. გურია;ოზურგეთის მუნიციპალიტეტი. ორბელიანის ქ. N49" [1]. Anyway, do whatever you think is appropriate. Chalk19 (talk) 11:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

That's cool. In that case I would include the Georgian in the descendants section of Տեր-Պետրոսյան (Ter-Petrosyan) to make it findable when someone searches for ტერ-პეტროსიანი. I would still refrain from creating ტერ-პეტროსიანი (ṭer-ṗeṭrosiani) until we figure out how to deal with foreign surnames. Vahag (talk) 11:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan No, problem; that's fine with me. Chalk19 (talk) 11:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

PS. @Vahagn Petrosyan Btw, may I have your thoughts on the Greek Armenian surname "Γεωργατζιάν" / "Γεωργαντζιάν" (Georgatzian & Georgantzian, accordingly). I cannot find anything, although I've searched by many different spellings in Armenian, Latin and Cyrillic scripts. Problaby a case similar to Simonakyan ? (from the Greek surname "Γεωργατζής" / "Γεωργαντζής" (Georgatzis & Georgantzis). Chalk19 (talk) 11:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Does Յորղանճյան (Yorġančyan) fit? Vahag (talk) 11:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Thanks. Interesting. "Γεωργατζιάν", written this way, looks related to Γεώργιος / Γιώργος, usually transcribed as Georgios / Giorgos; but there also the Yorgos / Yiorgos form. Maybe it was chosen to be transcribed as "Γεωργ" instead of the "right" "Γιοργ" because the former appears "more Greek" (or "less Turkish") than the latter. This explanation gives an answer to the question on the origin of the "Γεωργα(ν)τζής" surname that puzzled me, since the suffix "-τζής", indicating an occupation, didn't fit added to a given name. Chalk19 (talk) 13:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@PS. Vahagn Petrosyan Just found out that I had already edited (last year) the Greek article on Γεωργαντζής, adding documentation on the Turkish origin of the surname [2], but I have forgotten all about it and, stupidly enough, didn't check the article while searching for the Greek Armenian surname the other day! Chalk19 (talk) 13:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

But where did you encounter Γεωργαντζιάν? Google only finds your Greek Wiktionary article. Vahag (talk) 14:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Ι didn't create the article, so I do not know where it came from. Probably from the same Greek list used (by another user) for all Greek Armenian names at el/Wikt. Now you tell me, I see only the form "Georgantzian" by Greeks living abroad (example Georgantzian. I will search further, later. Chalk19 (talk) 14:38, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I see, could be a reborrowing like in the case of Bilzerian. Vahag (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan I think there is a simpler explanation, that has to do with how Greeks usually pronounce the "ntz" combination of letters in Greek words generally. In almost all cases it will be "tz", as if "n" didn't exist. That is why many Greek works that in older times were written with the ""ntz" combination, "now" they don't anymore. So, perhaps the "Γεωργαντζιάν"s just "dropped" "ν" sometime in the past. Of course dropping or changing a letter in a surname is not that easy as in any other word, because of the "official" status of the surnames; but it has happened many time with Greek family names for several reasons (usually to avoid a form that was thought to be "vulgar" to another one considered "more noble"). Chalk19 (talk) 09:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, why do you think these are from Armenian. They could be surnames of Greek persons, directly from Turkish. Vahag (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan I don't. My mistake; it was the similar "-ιαν"s that I had in mind but I was confused. Chalk19 (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)