Talk:արտալայ

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: What is this word's precise definition and which Turkish word is being quoted here? I can't find that Turkish word and don't even know where to begin. This is being connected to Georgian არტალა (arṭala, “leg of beef”). კვარია (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dohqo, please create dialectal Turkish ardala based on {{R:tr:DS}}. I will handle the etymology. Vahag (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

here you are: ardala. It was a bit confusing to be honest. Dohqo (talk) 05:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@კვარია: the Turkish word is ardala. Its origin is unknown, but I think @Dohqo or @Allahverdi Verdizade can solve it by original research taking into account the new data I give here: (1) the meanings of Middle Armenian արտալայ (artalay), Armenian արտալա (artala), (2) Ottoman Turkish آردله (ardala, “supplement, something joined, added”) see here, (3) Armenian-script Ottoman Turkish խարտալա (hardala, “a supplementary portion of low-value meat that the buyer is forced to take”), whence dialectal Armenian խարտալա (xartala), հառտալա (haṙtala), (4) dialectal Turkish hardala (“sığır etinin but kısmı”) (see DS), (5) Old Anatolian Turkish آردله (ardala, “satılana ilave idilen parça”) (see {{R:trk-oat:Kanar}}).

So far two possibilities have been suggested: derivation from art or artmak. Vahag (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Although the artmaq hypothesis makes sense semantically, the morphology looks weird. This looks suspiciously Mongolic to me. On the other hand, anything inexplicable looks Mongolic to me, so... Remind me in 3 months time, if it's still unsolved. On another thought, if attested in pre-thirteenth century Armenian, the Mongolic borrowing is unlikely. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I tried to differentiate bell and meat related senses according to Tietze's view but, as a hunch, I think they might be related if both are of Turkic origin. It's not found in the usual reference sources, only Kubbealtı records it as halk ağzı and with the meaning bell. Judging by {{R:tr:DS}}, the geographic range of it also seems to be restricted. It could be a later development, but then how could it be recorded in Armenian, in the 12th century? Maybe we should rethink the borrowing direction. Dohqo (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)