User talk:კვარია

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Gomordzgua!

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Again, welcome! --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

That feeling of betrayal when you register to move a page to fix a typo, but the website still won't let you. It's all the Armenians' doing -- look they're even 'gomordzguing' now -- I'm telling you they're up to no good! 😊 Could you move ბარეჟ to ბერეჟ? კვარია (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Our ruse to get you registered worked. PS Are you Megruli? Vahag (talk) 20:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I could have sworn it said ბარეჟ, I was looking at 2 PDFs files, and misread it both times. :) Yes, I am megreli. კვარია (talk) 08:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Svan normalization

Should the diaeresis and macron be included in Svan entry names? Now they are automatically stripped: compare კალმა̈ხ (ḳalmäx), ჯგირა̈̄გ (ǯgirǟg). --Vahag (talk) 19:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh so it's done on purpose. If it's not too much trouble, I think they should be included because some lemmas only exist with them: like ჯგჷრა̈̄გ for example, all four alternative forms exist only with them; I couldn't even list all alternative forms because self-referential links were formed due to stripping. Or perhaps it could be done without them and different pronunciations could be listed on the page itself. კვარია (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I stopped the automatic stripping. Vahag (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if you're crazy or a genius, but you seemingly moved almost all Svan lemmas already. Thank you. :) კვარია (talk) 20:01, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

ფიწიღი

Armenology is not aware about these borrowings from modern Armenian. Could you please add a source for the Kakheti and Imereti forms? --Vahag (talk) 11:19, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: ფიწიღი (pic̣iɣi) is Kiziqi (page 158), ფაწიღი (pac̣iɣi) is Kakheti (page 151). This is the source. ფიციხი (picixi) isn't in that book, I found it on ena.ge. ფიწეღი (pic̣eɣi) isn't in that book or on ena.ge, where did you find it? EDIT: Now I see you found it ქალაქური ლექსიკონი (kalakuri leksiḳoni). კვარია (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Excellent. A new discovery. Vahag (talk) 19:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Laz dialects

I want to add categorizing labels for the dialects of Laz. I propose the following scheme:

• Eastern Laz
  • Xopa–Batumi
    • Xopa
    • Batumi
  • Chkhala
• Western Laz
  • Vitse–Arkabi
    • Arkabi
    • Vitse
  • Atina
    • Bulepi
  • Artasheni

What do you think? We should choose a scheme corresponding to the labels found in standard dictionaries of Laz or at least allowing an unambiguous conversion into our scheme.

We can do the same for Mingrelian if you provide the scheme. --Vahag (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: this makes sense. The dictionaries I'm using use a similar scheme, I can't think of anything to improve this scheme atm.

Wrt. Mingrelian, it doesn't make sense to go into much depth. It's should simply be Zugdidi-Samurzakano and Senaki. Smaller sub-speeches of these dialects differ very little so I think it'd be actually distracting if they were displayed in any way კვარია (talk) 15:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I made Module:lzz:Dialects, Module:labels/data/lang/lzz and Module:xmf:Dialects. Feel free to fine-tune the categorization, if needed. Vahag (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: Thanks! By the way, how do you ping someone in an edit summary? Does it work the same way with {{ping...? See my edit on your discoveries page კვარია (talk) 15:43, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

You need to type [[User:Vahagn Petrosyan]] in the edit summary. Thanks for correcting the Svan form. So the meaning of "misletoe" for Svan is spurious? Topuria seems to identify it with Svan ჭაკუნტელ (č̣aḳunṭel), which is obviously related to ճակնդեղ (čakndeł). Vahag (talk) 15:57, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: ჭაგუ̂ (č̣agû) is obviously borrowed from Georgian ჭლაკვი (č̣laḳvi, “spring onion”). Dondua glosses Svan the same. I don't know what the -ნტელ (-nṭel) part is atm. (Looks like dimunitive form tbh) I'll create Georgian entry. Oh btw, I was wrong. Maqashvili apparently glosses them as both as spring onion as well as mistletoe. I don't know what his source is tho. კვარია (talk) 16:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I will look closer at this word later. Svan ჭაკუნტელ (č̣aḳunṭel) should not be separated from Old Georgian ჭაკუნტელი (č̣aḳunṭeli, “beetroot”). Vahag (talk) 16:20, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Now that the ultimate Circassian origin of ჭლაკვი (č̣laḳvi) is revealed, the route how it got into Georgian perhaps needs a review. I don't know how the mountain words usually descend to you. Digor дзиликъу (ʒilik’u, “Jerusalem artichoke”) keeps the more basic meaning. Also, according to this, Mingrelian ჭირკუ (č̣irḳu) is related. Vahag (talk) 00:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

The Vitse-Arkabi dialect is different enough from western dialects to be considered its own central dialect, and it's similar to eastern dialects more than western ones. Also, Laz speakers usually distinguish 3 dialects rather than 2. For example წკარი (ǯǩari) of Vitse-Arkabi dialects fits well with წკარი (ǯǩari) of eastern Dialects while in western dialects it is წარი (ǯari). Another example would be word-final ს (s) are ჲ (y) in Western dialects. Verb Conjugation is also different in 3rd person singular indicitative mood imperfective present tense verbs usually ends with -უჲ (-uy) in western dialects, -უმს (-ums) in central dialects and -უფს (-ups) in eastern dialects. Gubazes (talk) 19:14, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Gubazes: you want to create Category:Central Laz, paralleling Category:Eastern Laz and Category:Western Laz, and put Category:Vitse–Arkabi Laz in it? Are there other Central Laz dialects? Vahag (talk) 21:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

• Eastern Laz
  • Xopa–Batumi
    • Xopa
      • P'eronit (Turkish Çamlı)
    • Batumi
  • Chkhala
    • Makret (Turkish Borçka Kale köy)
• Central Laz
  • Vitse
    • Ch'aneti ( Turkish Fındıklı Cennet Köyü)
    • Sumla ( Turkish Fındıklı Sümer)
    • Pachva or Ch'alanedzi ( Turkish Fındıklı Yenimahalle)
  • Arkabi
    • Lome (Turkish Arhavi Yolgeçen)
    • Borghola (Borğola Laz latin spelling, Turkish Arhavi Aşağıhacılar)
    • Gidreva ( Turkish Arhavi Dereüstü)
• Western Laz
  • Atina
    • Bulepi ( Turkish Pazar kirazlık)
    • Apso ( Turkish Pazar Suçatı)
    • Jigetore or Cigetore(Laz latin spelling, Turkish Pazar Boğazlı)
  • Vija or Çamlıhemşin(Turkish name)
    • Ghvant or Ğvant(Laz latin spelling, Turkish Çamlıhemşin Çayırdüzü)
  • Artasheni
    • Ok'ordule (Turkish Ardeşen Yayla mahallesi)
    • Ortaalan

This is what I'm trying to say. Gubazes (talk) 18:53, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Gubazes: you are the most competent person on Laz dialects here. You should edit Module:lzz:Dialects and Module:labels/data/lang/lzz as you see fit. Vahag (talk) 19:27, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Gubazes, where does the Firtina Valley dialect fit in your scheme? Vahag (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In Artasheni Dialect Gubazes (talk) 17:47, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Gubazes, do you know where in this tree are the dialects of the Laz muhajirs in Düzce and Sapanca? Vahag (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

They are from various dialects, mostly Khopa and Chkhala, with a small percentage from Arkabi. But the vast majority are from Batumi, so I classify them under the Batumi dialect. Gubazes (talk) 10:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gubazes Ok, we can categorize muhajir words into Category:Khopa–Batumi Laz. If you put {{lb|lzz|Akçakoca}} as a label, it will display "Akçakoca" (I think it is important to show where the word was recorded, instead of saying "Batumi") but will categorize into Category:Khopa–Batumi Laz. Vahag (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Adam's Old Georgian vocabulary

The linguist Adam Bremer-McCollum has made an Old Georgian – English vocabulary. You can request him to share the link with you by emailing him at <acmccollum101@gmail.com>. --Vahag (talk) 14:35, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

User-Page Suggestion

Here's one thing to consider, if you choose to make your user-page:

What made you want to edit at Wiktionary? --Apisite (talk) 13:22, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

changes to Template:desc

Hi. Just FYI, {{desc}} has changed a bit; please use |t= in place of |4= (the gloss/definition), and |alt= in place of |3= (the display/alternative form). This is because the template will soon support multiple terms. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 02:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: this usecase is now broken, check the code under Laz. Since neither Klimov nor Fahnrich give the full form and I can't find it in any dictionary available to me, I put the desc as alt without giving it a link, which no longer works კვარია (talk) 18:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

This should be fixed. BTW please use |qq= not |q=; I am in the process of changing |q= to put the qualifier before the term, as happens with most other templates. Benwing2 (talk) 19:32, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

On Making A To-Do List

Christoffre (talk • contribs) has his (or her) own to-do list. Have you considered making one? Apisite (talk) 08:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

ӏаж

Hi. I don't understand you. Why should I clear the page of your edits? I do not believe that Proto-Nakh and Proto-Dagestanian are related, despite all those who think otherwise. ɶLerman (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

k. კვარია (talk) 12:56, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

What? (shto blyat?) ɶLerman (talk) 22:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Trust

It's amazing that you trusted me. I am the same person as others and could easily deceive you or I will be able to in the future, just like others. Be careful, don't trust people. Thank you for the materials. ɶLerman (talk) 20:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

So dramatic... Don't worry, don, if you betray my trust, don, I'll have you killed, don. კვარია (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm being protected, hahaha (: ɶLerman (talk) 13:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Kartvelo-Dravidian-Sino-Tibetan theory

What is your Kartvelo-Dravidian-Sino-Tibetan theory? I am a Green Bee (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Greetings, fellow truth-seeker. We musn't overlook the cosmic possibilities.

The advanced language skills and culture of Kartvelo-Dravido-Sino-Tibetans show sophistication that might just be the remnants of alien teachings. This language family boasts a unique structure that defies traditional linguistic classifications – it carries an alien blueprint. What if these people were the progeny of extraterrestrial travelers who settled on Earth eons ago? კვარია (talk) 11:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

You are laughing but a supposedly serious scholar in a recent work published by a supposedly serious publisher argues for a Kartvelian substrate in northwestern India. Vahag (talk) 16:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

A serious scholar who evidently has no serious or even surface knowledge about Kartvelian as evidenced by his incessant quoting of Chukhua 2019. Taking Chukhua 2019 at face value is an egregious mistake. I read Chukhua 2019 and it has around 120 proper Kartvelian roots, the rest of the proposed new Kartvelian roots are garbage either due to strange semantics, weird and irregular sound changes, or both. Obviously, the manipulation and/or faking of Kartvelian data itself should cast a bad light on Chukhua's "paleo-Caucasian" bullshit as well, so it'd be greatly appreciated if Zoller skipped quoting Chukhua's "Proto-Sindy" (or rather Proto-Abkhaz-Adyghe as all well-adjusted human-beings call it) reconstructions. But you knew that about Chukhua already.

Relying on Holst's Kartvelian-Burushaski theory is problematic too, as it relies on Schmidt's cluster reconstruction of PK which is, after all, simply untenable. I'm guessing Zoller isn't aware of Kelauradze's Burushaski-Kartvelian theory, which makes *slightly* more sense because it's based on a modified Machavariani-Gamkrelidze PK reconstruction. But I wouldn't want to give these people any ideas...

You're a troll for bringing this to my attention and also you owe me 150 euros. კვარია (talk) 08:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll send you a compensatory present by email.

By the way, our @AryamanA is writing a review of Zoller on Twitter. Vahag (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan, კვარია: I took a break from that to read Holst's Burushaski-Kartvelian book because Zoller doesn't go enough into depth on the theory before beginning to apply it wholesale into northwestern Indo-Aryan words shared with Burushaski. TBH not too hopeful about Zoller's book but I'll slog through it eventually, not like there's anything else new on Indo-Aryan to read out there. Where can I read Kelauradze's stuff? I have some time to waste if it isn't clear. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 02:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Afaik, Kelauradze hasn't written a book yet. He's written 10 or so articles here and there trying to establish sound correspondences between Burushaski and Kartvelian. It's all in Georgian though. :) I don't agree with these theories, but I'll add his comparisons to a sandbox page later. კვარია (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

տխուր

I want to explain this as a borrowing from Georgian or Zan word formed as Proto-Kartvelian *tex- ~ tx- (“to break”) + -ური (-uri), with a sense development "broken" > "sad". {{R:lzz:Chikobava:1938|page=40}} has Georgian ტეხური (ṭexuri), Mingrelian ტეხირი (ṭexiri, “Tekhuri River”). Are these formations attested in the literal meaning "broken"? Vahag (talk) 21:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

<tag:...> inline modifier and tag= param

Hi, I notice you've been using the |tag= param and/or <tag:...> inline modifier in {{syn}}, {{ant}} and/or {{desc}}. These are changing to be |lb= and <lb:...> now that dialect tags have been unified with labels; the values of these parameters are handled just like labels in the {{lb}} template. Benwing2 (talk) 20:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Kartvelian and Lexical Contact in the Ancient Caucasus

I just wanted to let you know about this fascinating article I came across. It's called "Kartvelian and Lexical Contact in the Ancient Caucasus" and it was published in July 2024 by Thomas Wier. This is really interesting because it explains some Greek borrowings in Georgian that were mediated by Zan. He also uses well-known Greek phonological history to predict some sound changes that happened at which point in time, in which certain order. It seems like he'd prefer velarised and palatalised sibilants rather than the three-way distinction we use in Wiktionary. I think some of it makes sense, and it would be really helpful to have a relative chronology of some sound changes. But before all that, I was wondering what you thought about this article. Have a lovely day. Gubazes (talk) 10:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gubazes:

> It seems like he'd prefer velarised and palatalised sibilants rather than the three-way distinction we use in Wiktionary.

See Table 3, he still has *s, *sʲ, *šˠ, and etc. for other sibilants. So in fact it's just a variation of Machavariani's sibilant reconstruction. If I recall correctly, Tsereteli proposed something similar. I honestly tend to get bored with such technicalities.

(3): The author doesn't explain why Ancient Greek /y/ should've been rendered as /e/ in Zan.

(9): Assumes a literal spam of adhoc sound changes in Mingrelian; also, Mingrelian ფალონი (paloni, “leafy”) is derived from ფა (pa, “leaf”), but I'm sure he'd sweep that away with yet another string of re-anal-izations... Not to mention it doesn't even make sense phonetically! I myself, too, so often tend to forget with Greek, but see Talk:ფოთოლი

(11): Georgian ბურახი (buraxi, “kvass”) had already been derived from Mingrelian ბურეხი (burexi), ბურახი (buraxi), if I recall correctly, by Javakhishvili. Wier's additions are that he considers Mingrelian a regular cognate of Georgian ბალახი (balaxi, “grass”), reconstructing Proto-Kartvelian ***baɬaxi. However I have two problems with this: 1) Wier glossed Mingrelian as "grass" which is a blatantly fake gloss, the word rather means "wild grapevine" or "clematis", in other words it refers to liana-like plants 2) Mingrelian etymology is actually very transparent, it's derived from the verb ბურახ- (burax-, “to bend, twist”); compare also Mingrelian გირეხი (girexi, “grapevine variety”) from the verb Mingrelian გირახ- (girax-, “to bend, twist”). The sense development bend, twist > liana/grapevine requires no comment really.

(12): I'd like to see proof that Ancient Greek λαρός (larós) meant "pleasingly fattened" as he glossed it.

(21): I see no pressing need to reconstruct Proto-Georgian-Zan here. Also, Svan word doesn't mean "cylindrical", this is yet another fake gloss; it means "container made from hollowed tree trunk". The Svan word has nothing to do with the Georgian and Mingrelian words discussed there. The "-ol" part isn't even part of the root but is obviously the diminutive suffix -ol. Svan is etymologically related to Georgian კოდი (ḳodi). According to Saghliani, Svan is borrowed from Georgian.

(33): All of the terms are explainable as inner-Kartvelian borrowings. Considering the historical importance of Georgian language, we can assume that donor language was (Old) Georgian. As for Svan supposedly "reflecting **x1 (= **ħ)", the h- is an inner Svan development: cf., Georgian აკვანი (aḳvani, “cradle”) → Svan ჰაკუ̂ან (haḳûan, id.); Georgian უნდილი (undili, “unripe”) → Svan ჰუნდილ (hundil, id.); Georgian ადვილი (advili, “easy”) → ჰადუ̂ილ (hadûil); Mingrelian ონწე (onc̣e, “cradle”) → Svan ჰენწ (henc̣, id.); and many many others. From a cursory look, I also can't find Ugaritic ħVzVr ‘courtyard’ in any dictionary. So even if such a word exists (@Fay_Freak!), I wouldn't take it as evidence of existence of **ħ in Proto-Kartvelian.

(36): I'm sorry, but this is so comically adhoc.

(56): What are we even comparing here? The roots are only faintly similar.

(57): So, "old" → "season"? And why should Kartvelian *z correspond to Abkhaz-Adyghe *ž́ʷ?

(58): There's no "osaru" in Mingrelian, it's osare.

I'm a little bit sleep-deprived at moment, so my brain isn't braining. So I'm maybe forgetting something, but with that person I'd exercise caution before entertaining Ancient Greek > Proto-Zan > Georgian borrowings... It needs to be checked and then rechecked again for good measure. We also need more data. Maybe @Vahagn_Petrosyan also has something to say considering Wier plagiarized his original etymology of Old Armenian գորգ (gorg) and then passed it off as "Starostin's etymology" at twitter. :)კვარია (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

That is one shady character, Gubazes; don't trust anything he writes. Bad linguist, bad person. I will not say more.

As for the existence of direct Greek borrowings into Proto-Zan, I am sceptical. The Greek colonization of the Colchian coast or the Byzantine ownership of Lazica does not mean there have to be borrowings. There were entire cities populated by Greeks, Jews and Arabs in Armenia; all have vanished without leaving any linguistic or genetic trace. The same happened to Rome. Vahag (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@კვარია: (33) He was too sloppy again to keep a distinguishing dot. 𐎈𐎑𐎗 (ḥẓr) is the word, however the gloss is neither from it, which means ‘mansion’, but its supposed cognates, Punic 𐤇𐤑𐤓 (ḥṣr).

(39) It is surprising he deems the the Aramaic unattested, though he steal from Wiktionary: the attention given to resources has not been large enough to find out about the existence of CAL via us apparently. Fay Freak (talk) 18:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)