User talk:Jyril

Hi Jyril,

Welcome to the English language Wiktionary. May I ask to not Wikify the language names of common languages? They are that way for a reason. At a certain point we wanted to take some load of the servers by having less links in the pages. The names of the languages were a good candidate for this. They can be found on almost any page that this dictionary consists of. Why does this take load from the server? For every link it encounters a decision has to be made to show it in red or blue, which means a lookup in a database table. Less links -> better user experience for everybody.

Polyglot 17:59, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

Hi Jyril. I was just wondering that wouldn't it make more sense to put the Finnish words in http://fi.wiktionary.org --Juxho 11:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I'll add only the translations here. Jyril 11:41, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Finnish templates

Hi from a fellow Finn, and Thank You for declension templates for Finnish nouns! I put one of them to use on the page for the suffix -lainen, part of my everlasting project to document Finnish suffixes on Wiktionary. Personally, I probably wouldn't have done anything to Finnish inflections. :p | hyark 21:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

sakata is a word entry you have edited which reveals a terrible error in declension table which comes from the template. You are NOT responsible for the error but I don't know how to fix it. The above comment seems to show you to be more knowledgeable than me and I hope you can do something about it .

Invitation to contribute

Hi,

You might or might not already be aware that there is now a new system in place for marking translations that need to be checked (those that are suspected of being incorrect or those where it is not clear which sense(s) of a word the translations apply to). (See here for the Beer parlour discussion on this topic.)

Translations to be checked are now categorised by language. For example, Category:Translations_to_be_checked_(French) contains a list of all words where French translations need to be checked. This is designed to make the checking of these translations easier to maintain and work with.

I'm contacting everyone who has either expressed an interest in working on translations or has indicated in Wiktionary:Babel that they have a good knowledge of a particular foreign language or languages.

Would you be interested in helping out with the translations to be checked for Finnish? If so, please read the page on how to check translations.

If you want to reply to this message, please do so on my talk page. Thanks for your help you can provide.

— Paul G 11:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Finnish index

Hello, thanks for working on the index. I had something like this in mind for most pages, but I haven't completed it so far. Please be bold and fin(n)ish the job as you please! — Vildricianus 11:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello; thanks again for helping out! It's done now, I did the last pages. Cheers, — Vildricianus 09:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

HELP HELP HELP

Can you Please help!!!! User:RadioKirk is currentally undtaking in a MASSIVE vandalism spree on Wikispecies. We need an admin there NOW, pass the message along!!! 216.164.203.90 20:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Kildin Sami

Isn't this what we usually call Sami in English? I.e. the headers, categories etc should be "Sami"? Or is there a difference? Or is Kildin Sami the preferred term in English? (Might be, I've just never heard it, always Sami.) Oh, and what's the ISO 639 code? (Yes, I could go look it up ...) Robert Ullmann 22:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I see. Interesting. If we are using Kildan Sami as a header, it should have a page? (I could certainly do that, but methinks you would be better ...) I have been hunting language pages not categorized and such. Very interesting. Somone added some Amanab vocabulary a day or so ago. Robert Ullmann 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Template:Nav

Are we really going to have one big list of all the languages? Wiktionary's only small now, but eventually the number will end up in the thousands. --Ptcamn 12:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Categories in English

It is interesting to have categories to find out how to say family names or food names or whatever in Finnish or Dutch or any other language. But English is not available in the languages list. That's a pity for people like you or me whose mother tongue isn't English. Maybe something to add?

Jan from Belgium, 30 July 2006

Kenia

I thought you might be interested in rw:Kenia which a 'bot just picked up ... it has collected a few others like rw:substantiivi and rw:tietokone Robert Ullmann 17:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC) (rw.wikt sysop)

Finnish for listen

Hello! Would you please take a look at the entry for listen, and if possible could you add the Finnish translations for the other definitions? Thanks, --EncycloPetey 23:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Question

Are there barnstars here? have a nice week and god bless.--Sir James Paul 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe we should. It is a good idea to make sure hard working editors are recognised. Do you mind starting a system like that, I do not know how to. Have a nice week and god bless.--Sir James Paul 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I was just blocked by Connel MacKenzie because I recreated deleted junk when all I did was put it up for speedy deletion. It was deleted by someone else before I put it up. He blocked me for it, he never even gave me a warning. Do you think he can be desysoped for that?--Sir James Paul 01:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Vakava/törkeä rikos

Hei, oikeampi suomen kielen lakitermi vakavalle rikokselle on "törkeä rikos". Yritin jo muokata sivun nimeä oikeaksi, mut sit huomasin, et en osaa...miten täällä siirretään sivuja? Kiitos x 1000 avusta :) -- Frous 13:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Tietotaito

Mielestäni tietotaito ei ole käännöslaina (calque) sanasta "know-how". "Tiedäkuinka" tai "tiedämiten" olisi. Hekaheka 07:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

FiNoun inflection template

Terve taas, ja kiitos edellisen kommenttini huomioimisesta. Huomasin, että olet nähnyt paljon vaivaa otsikossa mainitsemani templaten hiomisessa, mutta on tullut pikku pulma. Jos katsot artikkelia me, niin taivutustaulukko menee ranskankielisen artikkelin viereen, jolloin sekaantumisen tai ainakin jonkinasteisen ärtymyksen vaara on ilmeinen. Se, että näin käy, johtuu käsittääkseni siitä, että olet määritellyt taulukon sijaintipaikaksi oikean reunan, jotta artikkelit veisivät vähemmän tilaa. Pyrkimys on hyvä, mutta pulmakin on ilmeinen. Nyt on kaksi mahdollisuutta: 1) ottaa käytäntö, että inflection template määritellään heti part-of-speech -otsikon jälkeen, jolloin se tulee ainakin suurimmaksi osaksi suomenkielisen artikkelin viereen tai 2) muuttaa template takaisin sellaiseksi, että taulukko tulee vasempaan reunaan.

Oletko perillä, kumpi käytäntö vastaisi paremmin Wikipedian standardeja?

Toinen juttu: Wiktionaryssä pari kuukautta aktiivisesti touhunneena minusta näyttää siltä, että Suomessa on puolisen tusinaa käyttäjää, jotka tekevät suurimman osan artikkeleista. Olen vähän miettinyt, että meidän kannattaisi perustaa jonkinlainen keskustelupalsta, jonka puitteissa sopisimme yhteisistä käytännöistä artikkelien laatimisessa ja voisimme vaihtaa mielipiteitä havaitsemistamme kehittämistarpeista. Yksi iso asia mietittäväksi olisi Fi -inflection templatien kehittäminen kattaviksi, ja toisaalta sellaisiksi, että niiden numerointi vastaisi Nykysuomen sanakirjan numerointia. Tällöin tulisi mahdolliseksi määritellä sanan taivutus samaan tapaan kuin Nykysuomen sanakirjassakin - pienellä yläviitenumerolla, joka viittaisi oikeaan taivutuskaavaan. Tällöin ei tarvitsisi (potentiaalisesti) määritellä taivutuskaavaa näkymään jokaisen hakusanan yhteydessä erikseen, vaan taivutettaisiin artikkelin yhteydessä erikseen vain ne sanat, joiden taivutus on epäsäännöllinen. Connel McKenzie on myös huomauttanut, että templatien numerointi ei nykyisellään vastaa Wiki-standardeja. Olisi hyvä sopia säännöistä tähänkin asiaan.

Mitäpä tästä tuumit, vai onko tällainen foorumi jo olemassa?

Rakentavalla mielellä,

Hekaheka 18:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Terve,

Pyysit laittamaan suomen taivutustemplaattien projektisivulle esimerkkisanat jokaisesta taivutusluokasta. Sielläpä ovat! �Hekaheka 21:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Terve. Minusta näyttää siltä, että tämä toteuttamasi ja vähän yhdessäkin ideoimamme nominien taivutuskaavamalli toimii varsin hyvin. Hekaheka 06:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Laatikko

NSK:n mukaan laatikko kuuluu luokkaan 2*, jossa tähti ilmaisee, että täytyy ottaa huomioon kk->k astevaihtelu. Muuten taivutuspäätteet ovat samat, kuten olit huomannut. Luokassa 2 on monikon genetiivillä kolme rinnakkaista päätettä, -jen, -iden ja -itten. Esimerkiksi sanalla arvelu muodot ovat arvelujen, arveluiden ja arveluitten ja sanalla laatikko ne ovat laatikkojen, laatikoiden ja laatikoitten. Myöskään suomenkielinen wikisanakirja ei siis seuraa NSK:ta. Ei ole helppoa! Hekaheka 22:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Inflection table

Hei, (kirjoittaisin kyllä englanniksi jos ehtisin ajatella, mutta on pieni kiire:). Nojaa, onhan se kai vähän kömpelöä jokaisen (joskus kai sitten 60 000 :D) sanan sivulle laittaa taivutusta. Nallesta ja pellestä sen verran, että – en tiedä, mitä Kielivirasto tms. asiasta sanoo – minä en ole ainakaan koskaan nähnyt niiden yksikön genetiivissä kahta e:tä, ts. nallen (ei nalleen). Mutta juu, en nyt ehdi sisäistää viestisi koko sisältöä suomeksi, kiire. :) Palataan joskus asiaan. -- Frous 18:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Declension types/Taivutustyypit

Joo, katos perhana. Selailin niitä luokkia sillai vähä puolisokeesti ja otin epähuomiossa vitosen :D Korjaanpa. -- Frous 20:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Imperatiivista

Laitoin tossa voida-verbille sivun ja etsiskelin sille oikeaa luokkaa, ja selailin siinä samalla muita. Sellaisen pienen pienen jutun huomasin, että kokoamassasi kielteisessä imperatiivissa yksikön kolmannessa persoonassa pääverbiltä puuttui -ko/-kö -lopuke ("punoa" ja "olla"), joka siinä kuuluu olla...ja en osaa itse korjata asiaa. Kiitos kärsivällisyydestä :) -- Frous 21:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Haastaa/paistaa

Hei, näitä taivutusluokkia taas pähkäilen. Mietityttää, miksi haastaa ja paistaa on eri taivutusluokissa, vaikka ne ässästä lähiten taipuvat ihan samalla tavalla (haas|toi, pais|toi, haas|taisi, pais|taisi, haas|tanut, pais|tanut)....että sitä vain, jos Sinä sattuisit tietämään, mikä logiikka siinä on? (Pitäisi jostain hankkia tämä uusin NSK, joka sen noin määrittelee, mutta ei tähän hätään löydy) Kiitos. -- Frous 20:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Non-standard headers

Terve taas. Suomen postpositioita oli laitettu tuonne -> Category:Entries with non-standard headers, ja mietin että ei kai niillä voi ollakaan muuta otsikkoa kuin "Postposition" – koska nehän *tättädää* tulevat kohteensa jälkeen eli ne eivät ole prepositioitakaan. Ja adverbeinakaan niitä ei voi tuolloin pitää, koska ne määrittää tiukasti kohdettaan (vai miten tuon nyt selkokielellä ilmaisisi). Elikkäs miten tossa kohtaa voisi taivuttaa näitä englannin wikisivujen normeja suomea kielioppia paremmin palveliksi? *Yours truly ei osaa, ei pysty, peukalo varmaan kämmenen sijasta keskellä *settä... ;D* Merci beaucoup, jos vaivaudut. -- Frous 15:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Declension type 10

Tervepä taas! Olit jakanut (luokassa 10-A) taivutuskaavassa sanan markka näin: mar.kk.k.a. Pulmana on se, että asiaan vihkiytymättömälle vierailijalle hahmottuu sellainen kuva, että sanan runko on mar, vaikka se oikeasti on mark, kuten artikkelissa markka onkin merkitty. Pulma tästä tulee siksi, että (esimerkiksi) käyttäjä menee artikkeliin markka, huomaa, että runko on mark, napsauttaa taivutuskaavan linkkiä, ja tulee taulukkoon, jossa runko näyttäisikin olevan mar. Vielä vaikeammaksi menee, jos tulee taivutuskaavaan jonkin muun sanan kautta.

Ristiriidan poistamiseksi muuttelin vähän kaavaa siten, että sain sen toimimaan mark-rungolla (muotoon mark.k..a). Sitten huomasin, että seuraavissa tauluissa on sama pulma. Tulipa mieleeni, että ennenkuin alan muutella lisää, täytyy varmaankin vähän keskustella. Mitä mieltä olet itse tästä muutoksesta? Toistaiseksi on vielä helppo peruuttaa.

Toinen selvennys käyttäjän kannalta olisi, että väliotsikot olisivat muotoa 10-A pelkän A:n sijasta. Näin siksi, että tullessaan linkin kautta taivutustaulukkoon käyttäjä olettaa näkevänsä saman otsikon kuin oli siinä linkissä, jota hän klikkasi. Erityisen hämäävää on tulla pelkän 10 -klikkauksen kautta, koska silloin alkaa ihmetellä mikä alakategorioista A,B jne mahdollisesti pitäisi ottaa käyttöön. Huomasin history -lokista, että taivutuskaavassa 11 tämä muutos aiheutti muita ongelmia, mutta olisiko joku tapa ratkaista molemmat? Toimisiko vaikka sellainen, että laittaisi tekstin "10-" nowiki -merkintöjen sisään? Hekaheka 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Stems of Finnish words

The stem of the word vesi is actually vete-, not ve- as it is written in the article. --85.156.231.113 14:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish rhymes

Hi Jyril,

I notice that you added rhymes to rotta. This is good because Wiktionary is intended to be a rhyming dictionary as well as a defining dictionary, but this is not the way we handle rhymes. See Rhymes:English to see the scheme we use. If you would like to add Finnish rhymes to Wiktionary (and it would be great if you could), please add the link "Rhymes:Finnish" to Wiktionary:Rhymes and then follow the example of Rhymes:English.

For an example of how to link "rotta" to its rhymes, see the Pronunciation section of "mouse".

Thanks. — Paul G 09:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Factitive verbs vs. causative verbs

Terve. Oon laittanut verbien johdosten etymologioihin, mistä ne on johdettu (teettoverbi täältä, kausatiiviverbi tuolta, frekventatiiviverbi sieltä). (Rehellisesti sanoen on katsonut kaikki noi termit sun verbs-sivulta:) Mutta nyt mulla on alkanu kasvaa peukalo keskelle kämmentä kausatiiviverbin ja faktitiiviverbin kanssa. Aivastuttaa kuulostaa ainakin äkkiseltään ihan samanlaiselta kuin teettää. Elvyttää (> elpyä) on kausatiiviverbi, mutta ammuttaa (> ampua) teettoverbi. Kausatiivi kuulostaa siltä, että aiheutetaan, että verbin objekti tekee jotakin ja teetto että...äh. Mikä noiden ero on ja mistä voi saada selville, kumpi verbi johdos on? Kiitos selvennyksestä. -- Frous 09:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Kiitos paljon. -- Frous 10:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: IPA

Suurimmalta osin tajusin kaiken, mutta h:n ja v:n allofonit menivät vähän ohi. Miten ne oikeastaan eroavat ääntämykseltään? hammas..raha..hammas..ei tällane tavis huomaa mitään :D Sitten, muistuikin mieleen, että laitetaanko se jäännöslopuke (ˣ) lisäksi joka verbin infinitiivin perään? "Ollako vaiko eikö olla":han lausutaan käsittääkseni [ollɑˣko vɑiko eikø ollɑˣ], vai pitäisikö alussa sittenkin olla [ollɑːko...] kun k käytännössä lausutaan kahtena (kuullut teorian muinaisesta latiivin -k:sta). Kiitos muuten ojennuksesta, parempi myöhemmin saada oikeeta tietoa kun ei milloinkaan;)... -- Frous 08:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ihan muuten mihinkään liittymättä puran aggressiotani: antamassas linkin jutus oli: "esimerkiksi o-äänne esitettäisiin ruotsin tapaan milloin o-kirjaimella, milloin å-kirjaimella" Noup, käsittääkseni (kouluruotsin perusteella) pääsääntöisesti ruotsin o on [u] ja å on [o]. joo..piti vaan tää purkaa sydämeltä jollekulle, ei mitenkää relevanttia ;D -- Frous 09:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Selvä. Mutta verbien infinitiiveihin tulee varmaankin laittaa jäännöslopukkeen ˣ:n siihen perään ihan aina? -- Frous 12:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ai niin: nkk-yhdistelmät? Onko ankkuroida oikein näin: /'ɑŋkːuroidɑˣ/? -- Frous 12:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm..meillä taisivat viestit mennä eriaikaisina tms. ristiin..mutta joo. Jätän sen lopukemerkin toistaseks varmuude vuoks pois. -- Frous 12:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ylätyyli(nen)

Hei, minun sanakirjani ovat aika suppeita. Et sattuisi noin niinku lonkalta tietämään, mitä on ylätyyli ja ylätyylinen englanniksi? -- Frous 00:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Juu vähän niin olisi tarkoitus vastaisen varalle. Aivan totta mitä sanoit, mutta onhan juljetakin aika ylätyylinen ilmaisu, mutta ei sitä ainakaan minusta oikein vanhentuneeksi voi tulkita. (?) Noh, koetan selvitä näillä eväillä, kiitos. -- Frous 00:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

1000 suomen verbiä rikki

Hei, en tiedä paljonko toi muokkauksissa näkyvä aika on Suomen edellä, mutta jos satut vielä pyörimään täällä, miten olisi tällainen puolivakava haaste, että rikotaan nyt tältä istumalta tuhannen suomen kielen verbin raja Finnish verbs -luokassa? :) -- Frous 23:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

hey! can you please write somethin in the Edit summary: when you making new sites, because it really makes the recent changes site kind of unreadable when you dont. even f for Finnish would be good. Thanks :) Frizabela 14:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Re:Verbien nominaalimuodot

Mmm..en keksi tohon kolmannen partisiipin vastakohtaan kyl yhtää mitää. Itse voisin vaan heittää etymologiaan, että kolmas partisiippi + -ton/-tön. Mut tohon viestis alkuun en ehdi miettii nyt vastausta. Palaillaan. -- Frous 16:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

marain

Hei, oletko aivan 100-prosenttisen varma tuosta mara-sanan monikon instruktiivista? Katoin noita taivutusluokkia ja niistä ei tuntunut löytyvän yhteen a:han loppuville monikon instruktiiviin -ain-päätettä, ts. maroin kuulostaisi minusta oikeammalta. -- Frous 17:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Kannatan maroin -muotoa Hekaheka 07:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Joo, se taitaa olla oikein, jos "mara" on tyyppiä NSK:10/KOTUS:9. "Marain" on myös monikon genetiivi, joten artikkeli säilyköön. --Jyril 08:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Re:IPA

Aipp...prkl, joo huomasinki, ei tosiaan oo :D -- Frous 02:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you a bot?

Hi there. You add these Finnish words very rapidly - I was wondering if you are using bot sofware. If you are, you need to ask permission. If you are not, could you please tick the "minor edit" box so that you don't swamp the "Recent changes" list. Cheers. SemperBlotto 09:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Suomen verbien taivutusluokat

Terve! Olen miettinyt noita tekemiäsi uusia substantiivien taivutusluokkia ja olen tullut siihen tulokseen, että samanlainen sopisi paremmin verbeille. Luotaisiinko sellainen? Kai tämä luokittelu on muuten Nykysuomen sanakirjan mukainen vai Kotuksen? -- Frous 10:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Olisi varmaan taas pitänyt tutkia ennen hutkimista – onhan tuolla jo sellainen verbeille :) Taidan alkaa rakennella sitä. -- Frous 10:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Terve taas, saman asian tiimoilta. Tuo -aa/-ää -loppuisten verbien (joilla on vain -i- -monikko eikä -oi- monikkoa) luokittelu kolmeen ryhmään aiheuttaa aika ankarasti harmaita hiuksia. Miten voi olla, että kyntää, vähentää ja lentää ovat eri luokan verbejä? Kyntää-verbin ymmärrän koska sen imperfektissä on vain -nn-/-nt- eikä -ns-, mutta entä lentää ja vähentää? Kertoisitko eron jos tiedät? Kiitos:) -- Frous 16:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Palaan ihan kohta armeijaan, eli palaan itse asiaan kahden viikon päästä (kiinnioloviikonloppu on ensi viikonloppuna:D). -- Frous 16:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Block

Hi, it seems impossible to me that you create pages that quickly. This means you have the help of software. If this is the case, you have to ask for bot permission. Don’t understand me wrong: I very much appreciate what you’re doing, but please do it the right way. H. (talk) 10:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I apologise for the block. Reason was that there was a similar question of SemperBlotto a bit higher on this page, but you seem to have the habit to respond on other people’s talk page, so I thought you ignored that.

I hope you had something else to fill your time in those 15 minutes :-p H. (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Administrator

I just noticed that you never got nominated as a sysop here? I'm a little amazed at the oversight. Do you mind if I nominate you now? The next time I block you for being a bot someone thinks you are a bot, you'll be able to unblock yourself... --Connel MacKenzie 04:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Fantastic! Please take care of the nomination acceptance stuff on WT:VOTE! --Connel MacKenzie 16:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

-ja and -jä

Hi Jyril,

I don't suppose you could take a look at my recent edits to -ja and -jä, and make sure they're accurate? (I don't know Finnish at all, I was just trying to clean up nonstandard presentation — always a bit risky.)

Thanks in advance!

—Ruakh_TALK 19:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Using Template:t in translations

Hi. I notice you add a lot of Finnish translations. Could you please start using {{t}} henceforth? All it requires is replacing the opening [[ with {{t|fi| and the closing ]] with }} — quite an easy change to get used to, and it adds functionality by linking to the specific language section of the linked Wiktionary entry and by providing a link to the entry for that word on its language’s Wiktionary. Thanks! † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

additional information in non-lemma entries

Could you please stop stripping additional information from non-lemma entries? This is being seriously discussed, and there is very strong support for keeping information in non-lemma entries rather than "dumbing them down". It is probably that someone will have to go back and laboriously undo all of your deletions. Better to leave it for now at least. Robert Ullmann 09:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

New buttons

Welcome to sysophood. SemperBlotto 08:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sweet. :) --Jyril 12:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

And could you update your entry in Wiktionary:Administrators/List_of_administrators#List_of_administrators please. SemperBlotto 11:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Alternative

I think you meant to add an ===Alternative spellings=== section? Or just what? --Connel MacKenzie 21:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Template

Ok, but I only understand the Dutch one with gender etc. By the way, is it me or doesn't Category:Indonesian interjections exist? See silakan‎. Mallerd 10:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, could you tell me the Jyril (plural Jyril-Jyril) template? For Indonesian. I tried to find but I could not find it. Mallerd 16:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome!

Thank you, Jyril! Galenus 18:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Central Europe

Is this the correct Finnish translation for Central Europe: Keski-Eurooppa? If so, would you please create the entry? If not, would you correct the translation? The word Central Europe and its translations in the languages of Central Europe is one of my pet projects. Thanks. --EncycloPetey 17:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Done.--Jyril 19:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Norway‎

Do you know anything about this?

Mallerd 19:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I know only that the name means "northern route/way" in some earlier language.--Jyril 20:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, no problem. Mallerd 20:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Page counts

When you create new pages for plurals or inflected forms, please enclose the lemma within square brackets. Our page total (displayed on the main page) does not count pages if they do not have any wikilinks. --EncycloPetey 19:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it really that dumb? No problem.--Jyril 20:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

aitotumallinen

Terve! Voin olla väärässäkin, mutta käsittääkseni "aitotumainen" olisi enemmän nykykielinen ilmaus. Suomenkielisessä Wikipediassa aitotumallinen ohjataan aitotumainen -sivulle, mutta toisaalta Googlessa puntit ovat suunnilleen tasan, ja molemmat näkyvät esiintyvän tieteellisissä teksteissä. Suurta virhettä tekemättä voitaneen pitää molempia rinnan ja merkitä ne vaihtoehtoisiksi. Hekaheka 17:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Taidat olla oikeassa (-llinen -päätehän korvataan nykyään usein -inen -päätteellä), mutta sehän ei tietenkään ollut viestini pointti. :) --Jyril 17:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Eipä tietenkään. Tuli vain mieleen, kun olin juuri lisännyt "aitotumaisen". Siihen toiseen asiaan: voisi ehkä ajatella, että niiden Translingual -otsikoiden alle, joihin ei ole olemassa eksaktia englanninkielistä käännöstä, mutta muunkielisiä on, voitaisiin lisätä ==English== -osio, jonka alle käännökset kirjoitettaisiin. Tässähän on horjuvuutta jo nyt aika paljon. Osa tieteellisistä nimistä on Translingual -osastossa, osa taas English -otsikon alla. Siis tähän tyyliin:

RANUNCULACEAE

==Translingual==

===Noun===

Ranunculaceae

1. <<gloss>>

----

==English==

===Noun===

{{en-noun}}

1. Ranunculaceae

====Translations====

{{top}}

• Finnish: leinikkikasvit
• Hebrew: ....

{{bottom}}

Mitä sanot? Hekaheka 19:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No jaa, tulee saman asian toistoa, mutta jos translations-otsikon käyttäminen translingualin alla on joillekin mahdotonta, niin kai noinkin voisi tehdä. Kunhan vaan se translations-osio saadaan jonnekin.--Jyril 11:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

hey

do you speak english? hi my name is don do you know a place to find finnish words translation? --TheRaccoon 18:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC) thanks

Jyril vandal alert a heads up :] --TheRaccoon 18:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks dude! --Jyril 18:55, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

your welcome.--TheRaccoon 18:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

another vandal sorry to trouble you. --TheRaccoon 19:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

those "bot" entries

Please redact the content from these and anything inappropriate? There is known to be a site that archives our deletion logs.

The are from w:Xrumer, using open proxies; so the IP can be (should be) blocked: one year, anon-only, "probable open proxy"

Tx, Robert Ullmann 13:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and note the block and block reason are more useful that you might think: they immediately go on the anti-vandalism global blacklist for all the wiki projects, so any edits from the IP are immediately flagged in IRC Robert Ullmann 13:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, that's good to know. Thanks, --Jyril 13:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

suomalaiset komparatiivit

Terve, Onko sinulla joku systeemi tähän? Jos käyttää "comparative of" -templaattia, niin tulos listautuu automaattisesti englanninkieliseksi komparatiiviksi. Templaatti hyväksyy "lang=fi" -määritteen, mutta sitten tulee punainen linkki "Categories" -osastolle. Lisäpulmana on, että suomessa komparatiivi taipuu kaikissa sijamuodoissa ja sen lisäksi ainakin adverbiaalisesti (-sti) ja possessiivisesti, ja jostakin pitäisi ilmetä, että kyseessä on nimenomaan yksikön nominatiivi (tuskin haluamme tehdä omaa artikkelia kaikkien komparatiivien ja superlatiivien kaikille sijamuodoille, vai haluammeko?). Pitäisikö tehdä oma templaatti, vaikka muotoa "fi-comparative of", joka tulostaisi tekstin "nominative singular case of the comparative of"? Jos tähän vielä liittyisi linkki komparatiivin taivutussivulle, niin aina hienompi. Tulin pohtineeksi tätä juttua, kun keksin yrittää kirjoittaa artikkelia roomalaisempi. Komparatiiveja ei taida onneksi olla vielä kovin paljon tehtynä, joten hyvän muodon hakemiselle kannattaa tässä vaiheessa uhrata hieman huomiota. Samantyyppinen ongelma koskee muuten myös monikoita. Pelkkä "plural of" -templaatti listaa monikon englanninkielisten kategoriaan. Jos kirjoittaa "nominative plural of", niin se menee läpi, mutta ei listaudu suomen- eikä minkään muunkaan kieliseksi monikoksi. Tässäkin ratkaisu voisi olla "fi-plural of" -templaatti. Hekaheka 10:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Autoedit

Could you tell me a little more about Autoedit? I might want to use something similar, as my attempt at a bot (User:Keenesbot) failed a while ago. Does using Autoedit require me to have computer-programming know-how, or can someone who knows nothing about programming and Javascript use it easily? Thanks --Keene 14:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks J. What's the best place to get JavaScript from? --Keene 15:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for bothering you again. I've seen from your contributions that you can use AutoEdit to make conjugated forms of Finnish words, so I assume it can be done for French verbs too. Could you tell me simply how the thing works, step by step, for if I wanted to use it to (semi-)auto-create conjugated forms of French verbs (let's start, for example, with télécharger (a regular -er verb). Thanks J --Keene 20:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi there. Sorry for bothering you too. I'm trying to use Autoedit.. if it is not too complicated (I'm not into programming and things like that). Well let's see.. I've created the page http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Barmar/monobook.js, when you have time (it's all but urgent! :-) can you tell me please what is the next step? Thank you very much, Barbara Barmar 09:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, it's quite clear. But what if I want to create a new entry? E.g. which URL have you used to create päittä or something similar? Thank you! --Barmar 07:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

template etycomp

Jostakin syystä, jota en onnistunut ymmärtämään, templaatti jättää välilyönnin pois lang1:n ja word1/inf1:n väliltä, mutta tekee sen ihan oikein lang2:n ja word2/inf2:n väliin. Esimerkkisanasi siis tulostuu näin:

Template:etycomp.

Tämä ei vielä ole kovin paha, koska väri vaihtuu, mutta jos kirjoitetaan vaikka

Template:etycomp,

niin tulee hahmotusvaikeuksia. Mahtaisitko sinä templaatin kirjoittajana saada selville, missä vika? Mikään järkyttävän iso pulmahan tämä ei ole, koska yhdyssanoissa yleensä molemmat osat ovat samaa kieltä kuin itse sanakin, eli kielimääritettä ei yleensä tarvita lainkaan. Hekaheka 08:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Kiitos huomiosta, korjattu on. Jostain syystä parseri haluaa poistaa välilyöntejä, jolloin tällaista sattuu. En muistanut tarkistaa templaatin toimintaa lang1-parametrin kanssa.--Jyril 12:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

hinder

Happy New Year! When you have a moment, could you please check the Finnish translations to the entry for hinder, and add the ones that are missing? Do watch out for edit conflicts, though, since I'm asking several folks for help with this. --EncycloPetey 19:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Inflection tables:nalle/pelle

Shouldn't the stem be nalle, pelle - the unchanging part - instead of nall-,pell-? I checked the links to nalle and all entries except 4 (Maire, siitake, Aune, stoge ) have put in the nalle-type stem. A native Finn would just look up the model word and not bother looking at the table.

Yes, the templates are a bit messed up. Of course, e should be included in the unchanged part. BTW, Siitake should not belong to pelle, it is nukke (consonant gradation kk:k).

Thank you for the fine inflection tables, anyway. What would be a good way of showing that a word has two acceptable declensions, e.g. Ahto? For foreign-type words ending in a consonant, e.g. Ellen, Mikael, I have given the type=tuoli/risti. Would a non-Finnish speaker understand that there is no -i in the sing. nominative? --Makaokalani 10:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Use kalsium/preesens for those words. I haven't taken into account words that have multiple inflection types. For now, just use the more common one.--Jyril 10:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

HTML entities

Please be more careful not to enter HTML entites in wikitext. Thanks! --Connel MacKenzie 09:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Query

Hi, sorry to be a burden could you possibly review this edit - I haven't know you to make many mistakes, so it may well need reverting back to your version. http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=tuoksuton&diff=next&oldid=3605325 Thank you in advance, Yours Conrad.Irwin 23:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

skole

Your edit here removed the wikilink for the Greek ascendant term skhole. Was this on purpose or should it have been altered into a {{term}} entry as you have done in your other concurrent edits? __meco 08:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

skhole is not Greek, but a transcription of the Greek word. It should be linked when correct spelling is added using the Greek letters. --Jyril 20:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that explains it. How would I have known without you telling me. I encourage you to use edit summaries. __meco 21:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I edit so much that using edit summaries slow me too much. I know it's impolite, but efficiency is more important. :) --Jyril 21:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a very shortsighted perspective, in my opinion. That makes your efficiency hamper the efficiency of other editors. Perhaps you will consider a change when you have pondered the matter. __meco 01:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm perfectly aware of that, I've been here for years. I used to add edit summaries meticulously (in Wikipedia, the number of entries with summaries is very close to 100%). But here at Wiktionary almost all of my edits are minor (template fixing and such), which I don't see important enough to mention. When I add actual content, I usually mention it.--Jyril 12:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Verbien taivutus

Olet tämän jo ehkä itsekin huomannut, mutta ei vain ole sattunut silmään. Hoksasin nimittäin, että kun kirjoittaa verbin taivutustemplaatin näin: {{fi-verb|juo|type=44#E}} sen sijaan, että kirjoittaisi {{fi-verb|juo|type=44|grad=E}} (sana: juopua), niin pääsee suoraan oikeaan tauluun (E -taipua). Jotta homma pysyisi hanskassa, eikä templaatit leviäisi käsiin, niin ennen laajempaa käyttöönottoa ajattelin kuitenkin kysäistä mielipiteesi. Hekaheka 11:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

nominaali

You have written an entry on a Finnish noun of the form nominaali, and linked its definition to that of an English adjective nominal ("relating to nouns"). Do you have any sources for this? In my experience, "nominaali" is only used as a prefix in compound words (nominaalilauseke, nominaalimuoto...), and not independently at all. In Finnish grammar, the common name for nouns, adjectives, numerals and pronouns, is nomini. Malhonen 13:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Besides, the English word "nominal" relates to nouns only (substantiivit), not adjectives, numerals or pronouns, e.g. nominal phrase means exactly the same as noun phrase (Finnish substantiivilauseke). For the Finnish nomini, there is no widely used equivalent in English. Malhonen 13:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right, nominaali is used only in nominaalimuoto. I may have been thinking about nomini, which as you said is another term altogether. Fixed.--Jyril 18:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

kriminaali

What about this? You have marked it as a noun and an adjective. For me, it's just a noun or a compound word prefix. Malhonen 21:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The entry is valid. Kriminaali is both noun and adjective, synonymous to rikollinen. --Jyril 10:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I stand corrected. It seems that people do actually use "kriminaalia toimintaa" etc., which I didn't think of in the first place. Malhonen 12:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

valin

Hi Jyril, I think you missed out on writing a translation when you added your entry on valin. I suppose you mean the amino acid, but to be on the safe side I'm just checking. /Natox 18:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't miss it, honestly speaking I had no idea what "valin" in Finnish is when I added it. Apparently it is synonymous to valumuotti (cast). They're both technical terms. --Jyril 18:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I should note that although a large majority of non-derivated Finnish words are loaned from Swedish, the languages are otherwise highly different and there are many false friends. --Jyril 18:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Okey, but may I ask what the point with an entry is if there is no translation? The reason why I thought that valin was the same in Finnish as in Swedish is that chemical words are almost the same in all languages, valiini was the correct Finnish term for valin, so as you see they're almost the same. /Natox 19:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I meant to update it ASAP. Yes, naturally as they are cognates, but as this case demonstrates the exact match valin is actually two completely different words.--Jyril 19:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Okey, now I'm with you. Yes, that's why I checked with you. /Natox 19:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

syltä

You added syliä as an alternative form of part.sg. of "syli (measure of length)". Are you sure this is standard? In my mind, the word for the measure of length declines syli : sylen : syltä in the singular and sylet : sylien : syliä in the plural. The name for the body part is syli : sylin : syliä in the singular and sylit : sylien : sylejä in the plural. So, syliä might be the plural of the measure of length, or the singular of the body part, but not the singular of the measure of length. Malhonen 12:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you're right, they're inflected depending to what the term is referring to. Should have checked first. Syli the measure of length inflects like tiili, the other syli like risti. Interesting. However, I suggest that ===Alternative forms=== are not removed, but changed to ===See also=== at the bottom of the pages, so people don't mix the inflected forms like I did. Finally, syltä is a non-lemma word, syli is the uninfected word in both cases even though that form is rarer. We don't consider metriä a measure of length, either.--Jyril 12:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

According to Kielitoimiston sanakirja syltä is also a nominal form, but only dialectal.--Jyril 13:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's the "Etymology 1" listed above "Etymology 2", which you modified. I even have real-world citations for the syltä : syllän : syltää forms. In the 19th century, they were used in standard literary Finnish, too. Malhonen 16:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Changes to Template:nav

What do you think about having a "description" parameter instead of "notext". That way, the description can be provided as a parameter instead of outside the template to allow spacing and formatting to be maintained. This would also allow a CSS class to be added around the description for those who want to style the descriptions differently. If someone really wants to have a blank description, they can pass "description=" to get the behavior currently done with "notext=1". Mike Dillon 18:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking about that. However, sometimes the text is way too long to fit into the template, and performance issues should be taken into account too. --Jyril 18:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there are any technical limits on how long the text can be for a parameter. Something like this can be done:

{{nav|lang=ja|langname=Japanese|current=Flowers|parent=Plants|description=
...
...
...
...
}}

As for performance issues, I can't see how there would be any. Mike Dillon 20:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, you convinced me. Now if only there was a way to show category structure maps (cf. Category:Food and Drink). Perhaps a template per root category where only the language code is changed... --Jyril 20:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Special:CategoryTree can be embedded, but there isn't a way to exclude/include categories selectively (for language filtering). There also isn't any way to make sure that the columns line up in a reasonable way (I've used CSS to split into columns). Have a look at User:Mike Dillon/Category tree. Mike Dillon 21:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Showing subcategories is not the problem I had in mind. The problem is to make sure that *Topics categories are identical to each language. A category tree template could be used to make certain that the category structure is right. That's was the primary reason why I created the {{nav}} template. However, adding category tree templates to different languages leads to the problem of huge number of missing categories, just as was the case with nav template before the language list was removed from non-English entries. --Jyril 10:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

tulostin

I wonder what this edit is all about. I understand the verb part, but were you going to do something with the additional noun part? It seems like that, but I can't figure it out... Malhonen 21:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that. A certain idiot forgot to remove extra parts of his temp text... ;) --Jyril 21:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Expertise required

Hi Jyril. Finnish word kampela - flounder (flatfish). What about etymology. What is mean root kampel-? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Eric Utgerd 02:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Vulgar Latin

That should be Late Latin; the term "Vulgar Latin" is less precise. --EncycloPetey 22:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Should it? They're not synonymous. --Jyril 22:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

palus, mare, lacus, sinus

I learned today that all of the above could be used to describe lunar and planetary features. Are there more? Previously only aware of mare. Are our definitions correct? DCDuring TALK 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, thanks for the palus correction. I didn't have any dictionary that defined it (not in MW3). Is there a good on-line source for astronomical terms ? DCDuring TALK 19:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are all the terms used. The website has also a list of every single surface feature name approved by the IAU. --Jyril 21:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Much appreciated. DCDuring TALK 21:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Finnish similes

I made Category:Finnish similes, but knowing nothing about the language, does Finnish have similes? Keene2 13:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not familiar with the term, but based on the Wikipedia entry and the examples the entries listed seem to be correct. --Jyril 15:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

BP discussion that may be of interest

There's a BP discussion on Hebrew that may be of interest to you as a Finnish-entry author. See Wiktionary:Beer parlour#Treatment_of_other_types_of_compound_terms if you're interested.—msh210℠ 17:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, thanks.--Jyril 17:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

juoda < juopua, syödä < syöpyä, saada < saapua — luoda < luopua??

Terve. Sain noiden juoda-, juopua yms. -verbeistä analogian tähän tapaukseen. Mietin tuota luoda- ja luopua-verbien yhteyttä. Jos luopua on passiivijohdos luoda-verbistä, niin luopua olisi "tulla luoduksi, joku luodaan", joten luopua-verbin nykymerkityksen kautta jonkin asian antaminen pois tarkoittaisi, että "joku luodaan pois jostakin asiasta". Kuulostaa kyllä äärimmäisen erikoiselta todellisuden hahmottamiselta. :D Mitä mieltä itse olet, kehtaako luoda-verbin johdokseksi laittaa luopua? Kiitos näkemyksestäsi. -- Frous 13:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Täytyy tarkistaa Häkkisen kirjasta, josko se on siellä mainittu. --Jyril 13:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Jepjep, luoda-sanasta se on johdettu. Viittaa sen alkuperäiseen merkitykseen "heittää, päästää käsistään ym." --Jyril 18:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Vielä: samaa olen miettinyt viedä- ja viipyä-verbien kohdalla. Eli siis vie|dä + -pyä < *viepyä < (e → i) viipyä. Pystyisitkö tarkistamaan senkin Häkkisen kirjasta, koska en itse kirjaa omista. Kiitos :) -- Frous 15:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Ei, viipyä ja viime ovat johdoksia vartalosta *wiŋe-, "pää, loppu".--Jyril 16:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

parata, paranee

Terve. Niin kuin kommentoinkin muokkaustani tonne verbitaulukkoon, niin Suomen kielen sanakirjasta (Gummerus, 1996) löytyy infinitiivi "parata". Totta että sitä käytetään äärimmäisen harvoin, mutta ainakin Google löytää viisi osumaa sanoilla "alkoi parata". Joten parata-käännöksiin voisi varmaan lisätä "dated" tai "archaic"..? -- Frous 17:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Niin no jaa, mainittakoon sanonta myös "Herra paratkoon", jonka jälkiosa on ko. verbin yksikön kolmannen persoonan imperatiivi. -- Frous 17:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Parata-verbi löytyy myös KOTUS-listasta, peräti kahteen kertaan. Kakkosmerkitys on listattu taipumattomaksi tai vailinaisesti taipuvaksi. Nyt en tosin voi Kielitoimiston sanakirjasta tarkistaa, mitä sillä tarkoitetaan. Myöskin paranee löytyy listasta. Tarkoitetaanko sillä samaa asiaa, on epäselvää. Jos niin kyseessä on poikkeuksellisesti taipuva vebri. Mutta joka tapauksessa parata on täysin OK verbi. --Jyril 18:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Parata taitaa olla paranee-verbin infinitiivin lisäks sen verbin infinitiivi, jonka monikon kolmannen persoonan imperfekti on parkasivat. Google näyttää parkasivat-sanalle hakutuloksena jonkun kalevalaiselta näyttävän lähteen. Eli mun käsityksen mukaan se parata 'huutaa' on alkuperäinen käytöstä poistunut muoto, josta parkua on passiivijohdos. -- Frous 16:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

tupakoi, tupakoitsee

Haudi. Sitten taas tämmöistä kyselisin: miten on noiden -oida- ja -öidä-loppuisten verbien kanssa, millä perusteella ne menee verbitaulukon voida-/epäröidä-luokkaan tai tupakoida-/ikävöidä-luokkaan? Onko tuohon edes mitään millään muotoa selkeää sääntöä? -- Frous 17:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Ei kai... katso KOTUSin listasta, kumpaan luokkaan menevät. --Jyril 18:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Autoedit entries

Would you be open to considering doing these entries under a bot username? I think that the community would be open to giving you a bot flag to do these entries, as inflected forms are definitely a good thing, but they do sort of clog up recent changes. Your thoughts? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I should use a bot, I agree. Too lazy to create one. Even though it could speed up things. --Jyril 21:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, if it's ok with you, I'll start a BP discussion, and if the initial response is positive, I'll start a vote for you. You should think of a bot name. Ok? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm too tired to think right now. But I'll return to this discussion later. --Jyril 21:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem.  :-) Just let me know whenever. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Cortinarius sp.

It would help if the entries at least noted that the taxon is a mushroom / fungus. Right now, all the definition tells the reader is that it is a proper noun (name=proper noun). --EncycloPetey 16:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be a good idea.--Jyril 16:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Conjugation sections

Hi, please place the conjugation section right after the verb section with definitions; usage notes, synonyms and antonyms, derived and related terms come after the conjugation. -- Frous 17:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Drokk! That's happen when you resort only on your memory and don't check WT:ELE. --Jyril 20:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Mitä drokk tarkoittaa? :) -- Frous 13:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

inflect, decline, conjugate

Terve. Eikös inflect tarkoita minkä tahansa sanan taivuttamista, kun taas decline tarkoittaisi vain nominin eli substantiivin, adjektiivin tai pronominin taivuttamista ja conjugate vain verbin taivuttamista? Noin olen taivuttaa-verbin kääntänyt, mutta olenko asiassa sittenkään ihan oikeassa? -- Frous 13:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Kahden sanakirjan perusteella olet aivan oikeassa. Siksi käyttäisin näissä templaateissa/headereissa ym. pelkästään conjugation/declension -sanoja, ne kun näyttävät olevan paljon yleisempiä kuin inflection. --Jyril 13:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Suomen vaillinaiset verbit

Hei. Miten me tehdään noille vaillinaisesti taipuville verbeille, joilla tässä yhteydessä tarkoitan infinitiivittömiä verbimuotoja (henkää, erkanee jene jene?) Onko nuo y.3.p.-muodot nyt sitten niitä lemma forms -sanoja? -- Frous 21:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Käytetään yksikön kolmatta persoonaa perusmuotona + lemma. Ihan niin kuin esim. naurahtaa.--Jyril 19:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Naurahtaa ei muuten ole vaillinainen verbi ainakaan siinä mielessä, että sen infinitiivi on naurahtaa. -- Frous 16:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ei tietenkään, tarkoitin että artikkelin voi kirjoittaa samalla tavalla. Eli yksikön kolmas persoona perusmuotona ja taivutusmuoto erikseen. --Jyril 16:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Aaaa...(kaameessa kankkusessa ajatus ei tunnetusti kulje ;D) -- Frous 16:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Finnish conjugation types (74 vs. 75)

Hi, I can't figure out the difference between the KOTUS classes 74 (katketa) and 75 (selvitä) by reading this [1]. Do the examples by KOTUS mean that verbs ending with -eta (74) have parallel (and rare/dated/archaic/obsolete/dialectal/whatever) conditional forms (katkeisi) in addition to the most common forms (katkeaisi)? And do all the verbs ending with -ita/-itä, -ota/-ötä, -uta/-ytä fall into the class 75, i. e. have I made a mistake by putting erota into the class 74?? I would love to know the difference between those two classes. -- Frous 15:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see other differences between the conjugation types. You can check the inflect types from the KOTUS word list. --Jyril 19:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I didn't put it very well: do all the verbs ending with -eta, -ota and -uta fall into to the type 74? Or do some of them? -- Frous 19:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

75 seems to be a limited subgroup of 74s:

• 74: aueta (also 72), erota, hajota, haljeta, hangota, herjetä, hervota, hillota, himota, hiota, hirvetä, holhota, huhuta, huuruta, hymytä, hyrskytä, hävetä, höyrytä, iljetä (also 72), inhota, innota, irrota, isota, janota, juljeta (also 72), juoruta, kadota, kaihota, kaikota, kajota, kaluta, kammeta, kammota, kangeta, karhuta, karkota, kasketa, katketa, kavuta, ...
• 75: aallota, bingota, diskota, eritä, haluta, hamuta, hellitä, hirvitä, hulmuta, hälytä, hävitä, jyrytä, keritä, kohuta, kärytä, lassota, lastuta, levitä, liesuta, lietsuta, loimuta, loiskuta, lyijytä, lymytä, lämmitä, meluta, muodota, myrskytä, mölytä, möyrytä, nimetä, nujuta, pehmitä, peitota, piiluta, pyrytä, pöllytä, pölytä, rymytä, ryöpytä, röyhytä, selitä, selvitä, siitä, silitä, solmita, tyrskytä, viritä

--Jyril 18:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

So there's no rule that all "-ota" and "-uta" verbs would fall into the class 74, i.e. they can fall into both the groups....oooou my God. :D But thank you so much anyway. :) -- Frous 09:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, but all the 75s in existence are listed above. All others belong to 74. You can use the KOTUS list, it makes your life much easier.--Jyril 11:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

declension is of the adjective

In this edit you add the declension header and table under the verb? Robert Ullmann 15:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The participle and the adjective are declensed identically. Maybe it's better to copy the table for both words, although there will be some repetition.--Jyril 15:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

(you mean "declined", not "declensed" which isn't a word ;-) hmmm... interesting case ... Robert Ullmann 16:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. ;) --Jyril 11:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Finnish proper noun form

Hi, how can the template e.g. on the page Englannin be edited so that it would direct the word into the category Finnish proper noun forms? -- Frous 09:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Use "proper noun" instead of "noun".--Jyril 09:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

~:Thanks. -- Frous 09:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

saunoa

Hi, shouldn't we anymore use the fi-verb on the line below the POS line? (With reference to your recent edits on saunoa) -- Frous 11:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think fi-POS templates are redundant if we use full declension/conjugation tables. Sub-POS header templates are really useful in languages that have very few non-lemma words (like English), which is certainly not the case with Finnish. And I've really started to hate the root/asterisk thing, it's not standard, but especially because the "root" is not a "true" inflection root (cf. hevonen → hevos-). I think {{infl}} + {{fi-decl}}/{{fi-conj}} combination is the best. fi-POS templates are OK when the inflection type is missing.--Jyril 19:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Autoedit

OK, it's quite clear. But what if I want to create a new entry? E.g. which URL have you used to create päittä or something similar? Thank you! --Barmar 07:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

aspeace

Hi Jyril, I was wondering if you could do me a favour. The entry aspeace was recently created, and I'm unable to find any use of the word in Finnish, could you please confirm that this is/isn't a word. Yours Conrad.Irwin 23:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's tosh. Thanks for informing me. --Jyril 06:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

SinBot

I have posted the code on its "code" page, now how do i activate it to allow it to run and do the tasks defined in the code? Im confused. I really want to get SinBot running, but 1. I dont know what file type to save it as on my computer to run it there, and 2. I dont know how to activate it here. Please help ASAP, The7DeadlySins 18:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm not familiar with the language of that script, and because I've never ran a bot, I can't help you. If you figured out how to run the script, you can't run it without a permission. You have been given instructions how to propose a new bot. Your account is only a few days old, you shouldn't start a vote soon (not in a few months at least). I'd like to see first what kind of editor you are before giving my support. --Jyril 20:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

taus

Is entry 850,000 (;-) Robert Ullmann 17:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Coolness... One million entries, here we come! ;) --Jyril 17:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Finnish infinitives & similar-looking connegative forms

Hi, so shall we put the impersonal present connegative forms (e.g. ei haluta) below the lemma form (i.e. the first infitive) even though it is pronounced in the same way as the infinitive? (With reference to your latest edit on tuomita) For me, I don't give a *, just asking :P -- Frous 10:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should keep non-lemma words separate. In fact, one can consider them different words that happen to be homonyms. --Jyril 16:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

luomea/luonta

Hi, do you have Kotus source for that declension? In my opinion, (kielikorvani sanoo että) luonta is incorrect and the correct declension pattern is the 7..(??) -- Frous 11:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Is of type 25, luonta/luonten is correct. Your kielikorva is wrong probably because those forms are not very common. I gave you a link to the KOTUS wordlist some time ago, please use it so you don't have to guess the inflection types; it's in XML, should be readable with any decent text editor. For example, I added yesterday all verbs of type tupakoida (though many are lacking definitions). If I had to select conjugation types for them, in most cases I would have selected voida just as you did (the former has those extra -tse- forms)... --Jyril 15:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

tepä

Moro, viitaten tohon sivuun: mun mielestä noiden luomisessa ei oo -mitään- mieltä, koska samalla logiikallahan pitäs tehdä sivut kaikista suomen nominien ja verbien ja liitepartikkelien yhdistelmistä. Whaaat?? Mutta: sen sijaan liitepartikkelien yhdistelmät toisiinsa tuntuis idiomaattisilta, ts. oman sivun arvoisilta. -- Frous 11:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Jotkin liitepartikkelilliset sanat ovat erittäin yleisiä, vrt. etkö, onko, eihän jne. joten ne ansaitsevat oman sivunsa. Liitepartikkelilliset persoonapronominit kuuluvat tähän joukkoon. Tietystikään tämä ei koske mitä tahansa sanoja. --Jyril 14:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok ymmärrän sinänsä yskän, mutta mihin vedetään raja? Hiukka hankalaa? :P -- Frous 13:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ei, jos raja vedetään esim. pelkästään persoona- ja demonstratiivipronomineihin, olla-verbin muotoon on sekä kieltoverbiin. --Jyril 14:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Template

Hello, I just saw your helpful edit at Gopala and wonder if you could explain the template you asked that I use in the future to me. I would appreciate it very much. 24.29.228.33 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You can read the template documentation at Template talk:term page.

One more thing: when I search Wiktionary I would like to be able to look up romanized Sanskrit terms such as Gopala or nath, as one encounters these very often in romanized form (such as as components of Indian names). However, you stipulated that romanized Sanskrit terms should not be Wikilinked. We do do this for Mandarin terms for the same reason, such as xiexie or nihao, and I think this is quite valuable, as many users typically use their Latin keyboards to key in terms they wish to search for, whether they be in languages that use the Latin alphabet or in languages that do not. 24.29.228.33 22:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

We should use the original script whenever possible. On the other hand, pinyin (and romaji) are widely used, which makes their inclusion justified. I however don't see why "go" and "pala" should be wikified instead of गो and पाल. Romanized names like Gopala can been as English translations. Lacking the proper keyboard is not a valid reason not to use different scripts. Words with different scripts can be searched if a transliterated word is included in the article. I personally don't have problem with romanizing very common words or names like Gopala if they appear in English literature. --Jyril 09:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems reasonable. Thank you for taking the time to explain this. 24.29.228.33 10:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

kenraalitarta

Hi there. I have come across several entries like this one. Shouldn't we have whatever it is they are pointing at? SemperBlotto 17:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should, but I've been adding inflected forms based on their inflection type. Skipping undefined words becomes a mess when I've been trying to keep up which inflected forms have been added. I don't always have a good translation at hand, and I try to resist copying a dictionary, so some red links remain. Sometimes coming up with a good definition is surprisingly hard.--Jyril 16:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:fi-conj-tulla

Hi, unlike in the other Finnish conjugation templates (for example, {{fi-conj-muistaa}} → {{fi-conj-muistaa|vali|tt|t}}, on the page valittaa), here the second parameter is for the consonant stem not existent in the infinitive, (for example, {{fi-conj-tulla}} → {{fi-conj-tulla|kuu|nte|nne}}). So, my question is: For the purpose of consistency, should the order in that template be vice versa ({{fi-conj-tulla|kuu|nne|nte}})? I'm creating a temporary template (something like "fi-conj-tulla1") where the order is opposite. -- Frous 16:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Btw, the template for verbs within the type 73 uses the same logic "infinitive stem first, the other second", regardless of whether the stem is weak (k, lakata) or strong (kk, lakkaan). -- Frous 16:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I probably messed those up. Fix them if you like, unfortunately I don't have time to do that.--Jyril 16:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

{{suffix}}

See my answer to your question on the talk page. Could you provide a good example for the alt parameters? H. (talk) 13:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

hienota

Onkohan tällainen verbi ihan oikeasti olemassa? Miten se taipuisi - minä hienoan, sinä hienoat, hän hienoaa jne? Yritin googlettaa, ja tulokset vaikuttivat aika lailla painovirheiltä. --Hekaheka 17:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Äh, löytyihän se jopa NSK:sta. Taisivat silmät vähän harittaa ensi yrityksellä. --Hekaheka 22:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Jepjep, älä epäile sanojani. :) Kaikki taivutukset ovat peräisin KOTUSin sanalistasta.--Jyril 20:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Kommenttikyttäilin ja oli pakko sanoo väliin: kyllä se on oikea verbi, taipuu hienonee, hienoni, on *hienonnut (korvataan käytännössä aina rinnakkaisverbin hienontua muodolla hienontunut). -- 88.112.34.29 00:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Meänkieli

Sinä varmaankin osaisit luoda POS-kategoriat meänkielelle. Kyseessähän on Tornionjokilaaksossa puhuttava suomensukuinen kieli, jolla on 40 - 70.000 puhujaa ja Ruotsissa vähemmistökielen asema. Ajattelin ruveta lisäilemään sen sanoja, kun löysin hyvän lähteen. Viitsisitkö joko hoitaa homman tai neuvoa, miten se tehdään? Kielikoodi on fit. --Hekaheka 18:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No jaa, uusien kielien lisääminen on erittäin simppeliä. Lisäsin juurikategoriat Category:Meänkieli language ja Category:fit:*Topics sekä esimerkiksi Category:Meänkieli nouns-kategorian. Loput voit varmasti itse täydentää. Muista kuitenkin aakkostus, a ja ä ovat englannissa tietenkin ekvivalentteja.--Jyril 16:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

salata -konjugaatiotemplaatti

Minusta näyttäisi, että imperatiivin perfektin monikon 3 persoonan kieltomuoto olisi väärin. Nyt muodoksi tulee älkööt ole salanneet ja pitäisi kai olla älkööt olko salanneet. En ymmärrä näistä templaateista mitään, joten lienee parasta jättää korjaaminen sinulle. --Hekaheka 17:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Sama virhe näyttäisi olevan myös muistaa, tupakoida ja voida -templaateissa, joten se lienee sitten kaikissa. --Hekaheka 17:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Näyttäisi korjaantuneen. Kiitos! --Hekaheka 15:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

keskiviikko

Hello Jyril,

Could you add a declension table to keskiviikko just like at torstai etc.? Thanks in advance!

Kind regards, Tvdm 10:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

• Never mind, another user has already added it. Kind regards, Tvdm 17:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Kursk

Hi, thanks for fixing. It was a typo. I used Kaliningrad as a template to start Kursk entry. --Anatoli 08:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Harakka-sanan monikkomuodoista

Nyt on "harakkoihin" ja "harakkoina". Eikö pitäisi olla yhdellä k:lla? NSK:ssa harakka kuuluu taivutustyyppiin 15: karahk|a, ja harakka jaetaan harak|ka. Tosin tarkalleen ottaen tyyppi 15 (kuten ei 10:kään) ei sovi kk-k vaihteluun. Tulee joko harak|ka, harak|an, harak|aa tai harakk|a, harakk|an, harakk|aa. --Hekaheka 11:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Harakka on KOTUS-tyyppiä 14 (-kka, -ppa, -tta), eli "harakkoihin" ja "harakoihin" ovat molemmat OK (eli templatessa oli virhe). Essiivimuodosta ei sanota mitään, "harakoina" kuullostaa oudolta. Karahka ei tietenkään ole sama, se on tyyppiä 13. NKS:n luokat ovat sen verran antiikkisia, että ne voi pikku hiljaa unohtaa.--Jyril 11:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Minusta taas "harakkoina" kuullostaa oudolta. Olisikohan murrekysymys? Toisaalta minustakin on tietysti takka > takkoina ja tikka > tikkoina. Kiitos taas kerran fiksaamisesta. --Hekaheka 12:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Sori, "takka" ja "tikka" ovat tietenkin kala-tyyppisiä (tyyppi 9). Luokan 14 sanat ovat kaikki useampitavuisia. Tosin minulla ei ole hajuakaan, miten tarkalleen ottaen a-loppuiset sanat jaotellaan. Kannattaa ladata KOTUSin sanalista, niin ei tarvitse arvailla sanaluokkia. --Jyril 14:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Finnish tables

Thanks for the notes --- it wasn't totally clear to me what direction this was headed in. But I would say that the wikilinked tables have one advantage over the inline declension/conjugation. They give a model word, rather than just a complete dump of all forms. The latter may be great as an online reference, but the model word's often going to be more useful as a learning tool --- you can just say to yourself, "oh yes, just like hame again" at a glance, rather than having to analyse the contents of the table. If every entry only has its own inline table, you hide language patterns from the reader, making it much less useful for learners.

So if you intend to phase out stem+inflection links to the separate tables, perhaps the fi-decl/fi-conj templates could be extended to also indicate an appropriate model word (if any) with a link to the corresponding NSK/KOTUS number reference in a subheader. This could be largely automated within the template, but the model word might need to be manually specified for some of the more flexible templates. --KJBracey 00:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Your point is good, I didn't think about that. Adding the model word into the templates is very easy and could be done. --Jyril 19:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been deleting stem+inflection links whenever I have added a declension table. KJBracey's point never occurred to me, and I'll stop that practice. --Hekaheka 16:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

No, please keep doing that. We can add the stem into the inflection templates. For example {{fi-decl-kala}} could include link to Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/kala (or more appropriately, Appendix:Finnish inflection types/kala). --Jyril 16:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Verb conjugation

I've just made what I thought was a start to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types, but I see you've already made a few subpages. I think yours are not quite right though - if we're going to follow the model for the nouns (each word having its own conjugation template, and a link to the general model page), the model page should be the more general one. For example, Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/saada should be moved from Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/19 not Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/saada.

Yes, you're correct... all front/back vowel and consonant gradation variables should go to the same page. Also, the table could be moved to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types and links to individual variant articles should be replaced with inline links.

I've also adjusted Template:fi-conj to optionally provide the folding style, like Template:fi-decl does by default, and the type link.

Thanks.

Oh, and a change request for Template:fi-decl, which is protected: it should use #if or #ifeq rather than #ifexist for the type parameter; #ifexist is a performance-sapping page lookup, which isn't what you mean anyway. --KJBracey 11:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Fixed... with #if you can use "np=1", "np=true" or whatever but empty parameter to hide the column... --Jyril 13:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood my request - I don't think it matters whether #if or #ifeq is used throughout the body. But for the type parameter in the header, you're using #ifexist - a check whether the page {{{type}}} exists, not a check whether the parameter type was supplied... That should be #if. --KJBracey 22:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, right... of course #ifexist is not necessary. Fixed. --Jyril 08:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

New inflection appendix prototypes

I've just put together some prototype appendix pages, following the thoughts on my talk page. See User:KJBracey. Sanoa has had the most attention to visual style, just consider the content of the others. (In particular, I'm wondering if we should junk the funky nominal table colour scheme and bring it in line with the rest.) My main idea with these pages is to massively reduce the tables, as we now have individual tables on every word. So the appendix becomes a place for description of the key features of the type, a minimal number of reference tables, and a summary of gradation forms. Any thoughts?

PS - "imperfect" or "past"? Verb form pages tend to say "past", the conjugation tables say "imperfect". --KJBracey 21:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct... The sanoa page looks good, I'm sure users are intelligent enough to figure out the different gradations using the summary table. :) Perhaps "past" is more correct? Actually I don't know how big is the difference. And it should matter much anyway because every word has its own inflection table. --Jyril 10:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I think "past" is more correct, yes - the use of the term "imperfect" must be from someone who once tried to map Latin tense names onto Finnish tenses. It's really a simple past tense. An imperfect tense would denote continuousness, eg "I was running".

My grammar book (Karlsson's Essential Grammar, 2nd ed) uses "past", and I suggest we unify on that. Wikipedia's using "imperfect", and the Finns themselves use "imperfekti", but I don't think either of those are a strong argument against English Wiktionary getting it right. I note that the Gummerus dictionary translates "imperfekti" only as "past tense". I've changed Template:fi-conj accordingly.

I've created some more prototype pages, trying to get a feel for how they're going to work, and created two new master lists, based on KOTUS. (Declension one complete, conjugation only partial).

Could you unprotect Template:fi-decl please so I can adjust it for use in the Appendix pages, junking the old Template:FiNounCases ones?

Two other style notes for the table entries - are the dots useful? I tend to think not, as I believe they were serving as a crude "invariant stem" marker for the old inflection system, rather than being in the place a Finnish grammar would generally have them.

And what about consonant gradation? Underlining the strong consonant or not? I guess that's useful, but only in the gradation section. I think most of my prototypes are underlining both forms of the gradating consonant, but I think previously it was just the strong underlined, and that's probably more useful. --KJBracey 21:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

New pages gone live

I've put the first of the pages (Appendix:Finnish declension types/valo and Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/sanoa) live, together with the master lists (Appendix:Finnish declension types and Appendix:Finnish conjugation types). I've managed to abstract out lots of the minor style details into underlying templates, so if we change our mind about how we show gradation, or whether to show obsolete entries, whether to fold by default, etc, we don't have to edit 75 sets of tables. If you've got any comments on the main structure of those two, shout now, before I duplicate them into the other 73.

If we want to change the gradation table style to match the inflection tables, that can be done centrally in the template, so don't worry about that. (I've deferred that decision because I'm not a massive fan of that inflection table style.)

But we should make sure that the actual rows in the gradation summary are the ones we want. For verbs, I've taken the same set as given in the master list (which is also KOTUS's verb summary). For nominals, I've taken a different set of singulars that show gradation better than the master list entries. --KJBracey 21:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your category work - checking though, there are 2 more basic nominal categories than there should be - 51, not 49 in Category:Finnish nominals with declension. I've spotted voi, which isn't a KOTUS type (covered by maa), and there must be one other excess one, but I haven't spotted it. --KJBracey 13:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, got it - hevonen (=nainen). --KJBracey 13:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

juntattaa

Olen yrittänyt lyhentää Finnish definitions needed -listaa, ja saanutkin jo kolmisensataa termiä käännetyksi - osan melkoisella selvitystyöllä. Mutta piitäisiköhän tämä sana poistaa? Se voi olla jossakin Kotuksen tai vastaavilla listoilla, mutta Googlen kautta löytyy vain kolme hittiä, joista 2 on Wiktionaryyn ja yksi johonkin turkkilaiseen sanalistaan. Enkä oikein ymmärrä, mitä se tarkoittaisi - kenties "minua juntattaa" = minua haluttaisi juntata, tai sitten jotain naisten salaista seksifantasiapuhetta. "Teettämismuoto" (en tunne oikeaa termiä) sanasta juntata olisi mielestäni nimittäin "junttauttaa". --Hekaheka 08:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Jaahas, nyt täytyy kyllä ihmetellä että mistä tuo sana on ilmestynyt... ei sellaista ole olemassakaan. Pois tuollaiset. --Jyril 11:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Muuten, jotkut erikoiset sanat ovat pelkkiä muunnoksia tutummista, niille voi pistää pelkän {{alternative form of}}-templaten. Niin ja hillitön määrä verbeistä on erilaisia ääniä matkivia sanoja, mitenkähän ne kannattaisi kääntää? --Jyril 11:12, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Alternative formia olenkin käyttänyt silloin, kun se on paikallaan. Samoin olen ihmetellyt ääniä matkivia sanoja. Suomen kieli tuntuu olevan niiden suhteen aivan erityisen rikas. Yhtenä mahdollisuutena on käynyt mielessä, että laatisi niistä taulukon, jolloin olisi mahdolista tarkastella niitä keskenään ristiin ja yrittää tehdä niistä jollakin tapaa johdonmukaisen käännöskokoelman. --Hekaheka 16:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikisaurus translations

Hello, your Wikisaurus:drunkard/translations can be a workable way to go. I propose another approach, more fitting to how Wiktionary currently works with non-English languages, exemplified at Wikisaurus:příbuzný. In this approach, a foreign-language headword is chosen to represent the word cluster of that language, and all the that-language synonyms are entered there. Thus, the non-English entries are almost first-class citizens of Wikisaurus, having their own entries instead of being collected in "/translations" subpages.

Thus, the Finnish synonyms are located at Wikisaurus:deeku, which I have just created.

Is this proposal okay with you? --Dan Polansky 09:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with you, this is English Wiktionary and English is the primary language here. Your approach has some problems: What about the cases where the primary word is identical? And the term "příbuzný" carries no information to non-Czech speakers. In the case of "drunkard" "juoppo" would be much better work, "deeku" is a slang term, and not very common. But I agree with you in that instead of shared /translations subpage for every non-English language, we could use language-specific subpages, for example Wikisaurus:drunkard/cs or Wikisaurus:drunkard/fi. In any case, we really need improve Wikisaurus for non-English languages... --Jyril 09:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

But on the other hand, there are terms that don't exist in English or are not worthy for a Wikisaurus entry... In that case, your approach would be more sensible. Maybe we should create Wikisaurus entries by topic (for example, Wikisaurus:sound/fi for all kinds of sounds). --Jyril 11:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: "What about the cases where the primary word is identical?" If you mean the case when more Finnish senses share the same term: there are multiple L4 headings for different senses. If you mean the case when a Finnish sense and an English sense share a term: There are multiple L2 headings, such as ==English== and ==Finnish==. Just look around English Wikisaurus to get an idea how the headings work.

RE: "The term "příbuzný" caries no information to non-Czech speakers." Correct, but that should be no problem, as the term "příbuzný" is defined at Wikisaurus:příbuzný, and its English translation is in the tooltip, entered using {{ws|příbuzný|relative}}. If your objection should be accepted, it would equally speak against having the příbuzný entry in Wiktionary.

The best head for what is now Wikisaurus:deeku has to be chosen by you or another Finnish speaker. I've only taken the first word that I have found in the list of synonyms. So please, pick the word that you think fits the beast and move Wikisaurus:deeku to, say, Wikisaurus:juoppo if that is the better word.

This is an English Wiktionary, and yet, there are entries for non-English terms, including deeku and opilec.

The English Wikisaurus is currently organized around senses, although English headwords come into a way a bit, so that more senses are at one English entry. Ideally, though, there should be one sense or word cluster per page. The same should be the case with entries for non-English languages when entered into English Wikisaurus, including Wikisaurus:deeku or its better heading. There should be no single page with all Finnish names of sounds; each sense should ideally have its own entry.

Instead of Wikisaurus:sound/cs subpages, there should be a translation section at Wikisaurus:sound, linking to non-English Wikisaurus entries. That is, in Wikisaurus:drunkard, there should be a L5 heading =====Translations===== containing links to non-English entries in English Wikisaurus.

Anyway, if you still don't agree, I'll better bring this to Beer Parlour, as I am convinced of the correctness of my approach, and this decision is crucial to the organization of Wikisaurus. --Dan Polansky 16:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I think this should be thought thoroughly. But we both agree that we really need a proper way to include translations into Wikisaurus. --Jyril 18:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at Beer Parlour started. --Dan Polansky 19:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

cajeta

Why did you delete this? Was missing a few headers, but the definition lines were good (bit of syntax trouble). See w:cajeta and es:cajeta. A mistake? no worries, fixed; just thought I would point it out. Robert Ullmann 10:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Given the quality of the edit and meaning of the word I wasn't sure if it was a valid one. Should have checked more thoroughly. --Jyril 11:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

IPA

Hi Jyril, thank you for the numerous corrections of the Chinese entries. One question though.. What is the meaning of IPA? i can only see characters that i cannot read. Psoup 15:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Hungarian/Finnish colors

Hi. Will you participate in Template_talk:hu-noun Template_talk:hu-decl, please? It's about changing the colors of Hungarian declension templates. Since the Finnish ones use the same scheme, I was hoping to make the same changes to {{fi-decl}}. --Vahagn Petrosyan 00:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, depends on what kinds of changes you want to do. --Jyril 03:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I put the wrong link above. The changes I propose are explained at Template_talk:hu-decl. --Vahagn Petrosyan 22:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, we need some sensible standardization to all different inflection templates. Not sure about the colors. I'll think about that later. --Jyril 03:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't use PAGENAME in fi-conj-xxx/fi-decl-xxx templates

Quick tip - you changed Template:fi-decl-vastaus to use PAGENAME for the nominative singular recently. Can't do that, it screws up its appearance in appendices.

I've tweaked it to achieve the effect you wanted -- titling with the nominative plural for a plural-only word (kälykset). But really that logic should be placed in the main Template:fi-decl.

--KJBracey 10:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

fi-form of

Hi, could you please change {{#ifexist:{{{1|}}}|[[{{{1}}}]]|{{{1}}}}} to {{#ifexist:{{{1|}}}|[[{{{1}}}#Finnish|{{{1}}}]]|{{{1}}}}}, so that the template links to the right passage of the article. -- Frous 22:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

kaksiosaiset termit

On kahdesta sanasta koostuvia termejä, joissa molemmat sanat taipuvat, esimerkiksi numeerinen analyysi, josta sain kimmokkeen tähän kirjoitteluun. En ole keksinyt kunnollista tapaa merkitä näiden termien taivutusta. Yksi mahdollinen tapa olisi panna molempien sanojen taivutus erikseen näkyviin, kuten olen mainitussa artikkelissa tehnytkin. Pulmana on se, että "risti"-taivutustemplaatti ottaa perusmuodon sivun otsikosta, jolloin lopputulos on hassu. Kokeilin muuttaa templaattia siten, että se ottaisi sanan rungon sivun otsikon sijaan templaatista itsestään, mutta silloin esimerkiksi sanan Bangladesh perusmuodoksi tuli Bangladeshi, ja peruin muutoksen. Ajattelin, että ehkä sinä osaisit templaattivirtuoosina ratkaista tämän ongelman. --Hekaheka 09:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Mielestäni kaksi- ja varsinkin useampiosaisten termien taivutuksen näyttäminen on turhan hankalaa ja sotkuista. Minä olen tehnyt niin, että olen linkittänyt erilliset sanat, kuten muunkielisissä entryissä on tehty käyttämällä {{infl}}-templaattia ja head-parametria: esimerkiksi numeerinen analyysi tai kaksiosaiset termit. Käyttäjä voi tarkistaa oikean taivutuksen noilta sivuilta. Jos tulee poikkeustapauksia, ne voi mainita erikseen Declension-osiossa. --Jyril 11:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

En ole ihan varma, ymmärsinkö, mitä tarkoitat, mutta editoin numeerista analyysiä. Viitsisitkö vilkaista, haluaisitko vielä parantaa jotenkin. --Hekaheka 12:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

No joo, voihan se tehdä noinkin. Tarkoitin kuten tässä artikkelissa: aromaattinen yhdiste. --Jyril 13:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Forms-of entries for Finnish nouns

Hi there. Do you need any help making the form-of entries for Finnish entries? I am and would be willing to help you with that task if you so wish me to. Please let me know if you'd like me to on my talk page. Cheers, Razorflame 20:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

No thanks, there are already {{fi-form of}} which is enough for Finnish entries. We use {{plural of}} because of historical reasons. --Jyril 20:16, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I know that you guys use fi-form of now, but what I am asking is if you would like me to make form-of entries for Finnish nouns as it seems like there are quite a few entries left that need to be made. Razorflame 20:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Sure, if you want to. --Jyril 22:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Great. Cheers, Razorflame 22:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Finnish noun forms

Hi there. I know that there are many different types of declensions for Finnish nouns, but do all nouns that follow a particular kind of declension, say, rosti, do they all have the same endings? Thanks, Razorflame 17:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't quite follow you... You mean, have all nouns similar case endings? The answer is no, Finnish is not as simple as Esperanto. For example, in the case of genitive plural there are several different endings, like -jen, -ien, -iden, -itten, -ain. Only words of type omena use them all. Partitive has also several different endings. On the other hand, some cases like inessive (-ssa/-ssä) always stays the same. If you're not familiar with Finnish language, I recommend not to try to inflect by yourself. But you can use the declension templates as examples and add the missing forms. Anyway, it is more or less crazy to add them by hand. Adding missing inflections is the work of a bot. If we skip the compound nouns, there are still at least hundreds of thousands of different inflections. --Jyril 17:16, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to inflect them myself. I'm trying to see how plausible it would be to make a bot program to add form-of entries for forms of nouns for each of the different types of declension. Do you think it is plausible? Razorflame 17:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, great. Yes, it is plausible, though it needs some work in order to get the different inflections working. First, you have to know what is the root of the word, then you have to take care of consonant gradation and vowel harmony. Gradation is easy, it is provided on the list. Vowel harmony is a bit trickier, you need to figure out if the word has front or back vowel harmony. Compound nouns can have both types, and foreign words may not follow the vowel harmony. Data is available here. Different inflection types are described in the Wiktionary index.

Possible way of approach:

* KOIRA (type 10, -a/-ä ending word, no consonant gradation)

→ uninflected part KOIR-

A found → back vowel harmony

available case endings for type 10 (1 = strong root, 2 = weak root, a = {A,Ä}): -1a;-2aN;-1aa;-2aSSa;-2aSTa;-1aaN;-2aLLa;-2aLTa;-2aLLE;-1aNa;-2aKSI;-2aTTa;

-2aT;-1IEN,-1aIN;-2Ia;-1ISSa;-1ISTa:-2IIN;-1ILLa;-1ILTa;-1ILLE;-2INa;-1IN;-1ITTa;-2INEEN

use template ROOT+GRADATION+ENDING → you get the inflected forms KOIR||A, KOIR||AN, KOIR||AA, ...

* HYPPY (type 1, -o/-ö/-u/-y ending word, consonant gradation PP:P)

→ uninflected part HY-

Y found, front vowel harmony

available case endings for type 1 (1 = strong root, 2 = weak root, v = {O,Ö,U,Y}, a = {A,Ä}): -1v;-2vN;-1va;-2vSSa;-2vSTa;-1vvN;-2vLLa;-2vLTa;-2vLLE;-1vNa;-2vKSI;-2vTTa;

-2vT;-1vJEN;-2vJa;-1vISSa;-1vISTa:-2vIHIN;-1vILLa;-1vILTa;-1vILLE;-2vINa;-1vIN;-1vITTa;-2vINEEN

use template ROOT+GRADATION+ENDING → you get the inflected forms HY|PP|Y, HY|P|YN, HY|PP|YÄ, ...

--Jyril 18:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe since you already know how the language works, I could help you get one working for you? Razorflame 18:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

That would be great. Not sure if I have time, though. --Jyril 19:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm...let us see what we can do. Razorflame 19:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Feedback

Did you see this comment? Your hard work is appreciated. --EncycloPetey 02:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Nice to see somebody finds my hobby useful. :D --Jyril 09:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

alasuojus

Thanks for the update :) Good eye. Do you think you could perhaps do suojus? I don't know what it means. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay... It is one of those words that have very many corresponding English terms (cover, pad, sheath, etc.). --Jyril 18:42, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks =) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

New entries

Hello there, when you create new entries please leave the edit summary blank. That will automagically provide Recent Changes-watchers with an edit summary of several lines of the new entry, which could be considerably more helpful than just "n". ;) Thanks! L☺g☺maniac chat? 21:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I decided to add 'n' because earlier somebody criticized me for doing exactly that... --Jyril 22:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Finnish index

Hi there Jyril. This page: Index:Finnish/on, doesn't seem to have been made, and I just saw it on a Finnish entry, so I was wondering if you would be willing to make that index page, as it is used on some entries. Thanks, Razorflame 17:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Should be Index:Finnish/o/n. It's a remnant of the old style. --Jyril 14:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Declension templates?

Hi there. Could you add declension templates to these two entries that I made? I don't know the declension table working for Finnish, but I notied that entries such as these require a declension table. I figured that since you know Finnish better than me, you could add them: leppeämpi leppein. Cheers, Razorflame 05:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Comparatives and superlatives are very easy. Comparative uses {{fi-decl-vanhempi}} and superlative {{fi-decl-sisin}}. If the word includes a, o, or u, the parameter ä doesn't have to be added. --Jyril 14:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

However, I don't know each of the forms for them, so therefore, I can't add them, because I believe you have to type in all of the forms of the words by hand, which I don't know. Razorflame 15:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay... Just in case you're interested in fixing redlinks, you can copy my additions. Just take care of ä. Isompi: (o) -> {{fi-decl-vanhempi|iso}}, vähin: (no aou) -> {{fi-decl-sisin|väh|ä}} etc. --Jyril 15:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that it would be best if you do them because you have much more experience and knowledge about them. Cheers, Razorflame 15:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs

I don't fully understand the table. What are columns Ø - * for? Heyzeuss 14:31, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Ø means no gradation (empty set). * means irregular consonant gradation or inflection. --Jyril 14:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I get it; the columns are for consonant gradation. That "D" category is particularly troublesome, where the "k" disappears and reappears. Thank you for working so hard on the page; it is quite helpful. Two more questions. What does NSK stand for? Do you mind if I add a note at the bottom explaining the columns? Heyzeuss 15:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

NSK means Nykysuomen sanakirja (Dictionary of Modern Finnish), actually not modern at all as it's from the '50s. No problem about the note, be bold. --Jyril 15:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

new entries

Hi! :) I'm glad to see you adding so many entries but could you please add the definitions to them too :/ I don't mean to be sarcastic but that is what a dictionary is for (deprecated template usage) y'know? Even I can't seem to make out what some of them are supposed to mean by just going to the entries you are putting in the etymology sections. 50 Xylophone Players talk 22:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I know... These entries have lots of links from non-lemma pages, so I am just doing maintenance by reducing red links. I will add a definition if I can figure out one, sometimes it is quite hard when there is no clear English equivalent or the word is not a common one. --Jyril 22:35, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh and while I've got you, what do you think of doing something (I'm not asking or telling you to do it though) like what I did for Category:Hungarian noun forms for Finnish? I know it's not urgent and that Category:Finnish noun forms is so messy that it's like a garden of weeds or something but I just said I'd run it by you. 50 Xylophone Players talk 22:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

We had that kind of system, decided it was too messy. LOTS of subcategories. On the other hand, I developed {{fi-form of}} template so that creating subcategories is very easy. --Jyril 22:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Really? You had? Well I don't think it's too messy. While categorising them that way isn't of any massive value to our users, I think it's much better to have LOTS of subcategories. Think about it, at the moment we don't have an entry for every single (common to attestably rare) Finnish word there is or their forms yet this category has over 10,000 entries already. Because of this I think the subcategory option would be much better. 50 Xylophone Players talk 22:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

You can start a discussion about this on WT:BP. I don't have any strong opinions on this. I can recategorize the words quickly if there is a consensus. --Jyril 22:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I may well do so tomorrow as I'm retiring from Wiktionary for today soon enough. 50 Xylophone Players talk 23:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've started a discussion here just so you know. 50 Xylophone Players talk 20:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, there seems to be no opposition, soo...how (if at all) can {{fi-form of}} work with these sub-categories that are to be created? 50 Xylophone Players talk 20:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Change the category in template from "Category:Finnish [type] forms" to "Category:Finnish verbs forms ([pr] [pl] [mood] [tense])" for verbs and "Category:Finnish [type] forms ([case] [pl])" for others. The categories like Category:Finnish verb forms (first-person plural indicative past) or Category:Finnish noun forms (genitive singular) or similar must be created first. One should think carefully what kind of naming style should be used. --Jyril 21:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, I'll go check it out now. However, I find your example a bit too specific; whatever about verbs I think the nouns should just be done by case, and not by number. 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Uhh, could you see if there's a way to fix what I've done; it works ok for nouns but not for verbs. Although it would require a lot of work, do you think it would be better to have one template for verbs and one for nouns and adjectives? 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Glad you guys are on the case. Special:UncategorizedPages is flooded with fi inflected form entries. You might want a temporary solution to reduce the visibility of the difficulties. I'm sure that you will find a good solution. A temporary fix would enable you to think it through or rethink at your leisure, if that is necessary. DCDuring TALK 12:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

PalkiaX50, you should test your edits thoroughly before doing anything to frequently used templates. Breaking the template causes unnecessary problems for Wiktionary. I have now reverted your edits. Don't try to create the inflection categories before we get consensus on how they should be named. --Jyril 13:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, sorry about that... as I said before though there seems to be not really any arguments against it. So, are you able to change the template to make these categories (like for example, Category:Finnish noun forms - genitive) without breaking the support for verbs? 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

himottaa

Hi there Jyril. There doesn't seem to be a definition for the first verb tense shown on the page himottaa. All it says is transitive. Do you think you could write what the word means? Thanks, Razorflame 14:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

User_talk:Hekaheka#rakentava

I have a constructive discussion with Razorflame on how to handle participles which are also adjectives, and we are using rakentava as an example. We would appreciate your opinion. Click the header and join us! --Hekaheka 18:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

印证

Hiya. Was just wondering where you got this definition from ("seal")? I've never seen it used like this, and the only dictionary I see which supports this definition is dict.cn which not the most reliable source to say the least. Tooironic 15:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't recall it. Could be even the same source. --Jyril 09:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Double-check?

Can you double-check the following entries I made in Finnish please? I want to make sure that I'm formatting them correctly: pilaantumattomampi, grammari, piukempi. Thanks, Razorflame 10:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The word grammari had wrong declension type, should be paperi. The number of pieni type or other -i -> -en type words is very small, they are all listed somewhere in my user page. All newer -i ending words are of type risti, or in some cases, paperi. --Jyril 14:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Cheers, Razorflame 17:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

You can check the inflection types from the KOTUS list, link above. Or just use {{fi-noun}} etc. templates, I'll add the type later.--Jyril 17:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I checked the inflection types from the KOTUS list, and I saw that pieni was used for -ri ending words, so I thought that it would be used. So does that mean that paperi are used for -ri ending words instead of pieni? Thanks for the help in advance, Razorflame 18:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant the KOTUS word list [2], it has tens of thousands of words with inflection numbers. Regarding -ri ending words, most three-syllable words ending in -ri are of paperi type (just like pa‧pe‧ri itself!). The distinction between risti and paperi is hard sometimes, even I'm not always sure in which type some words belong. On the other hand, pieni words (here, most words listed are compounds though) are very old words (like almost all -i -> -en words) and have only two syllables, definitely different from new words such as paperi. --Jyril 06:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Nice going!

Hi there Jyril. I just wanted to thank you for all the work that you've done in Finnish here on the English Wiktionary. You set an example to us all. Please see w:Template:Cookie for your reward ;). Thanks again for your hard work, Razorflame 19:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, thanks a lot! :) --Jyril 19:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

plurals

Hello, some of the plurals you've been creating have {{{2|{{subst:PAGENAME}}}}} in their inflection line. If that doesn't change to text for you, could you please replace it with just the bolded form of the word (or linked, if it's a phrase)? Thanks, L☺g☺maniac ☃ 16:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... thaks for the notice, I saw it had the SUBST:PAGENAME command on the template and thought it will be ok. --Jyril 16:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation requests

Hey, just a heads up, when requesting translations for Mandarin, the common practice is to put it under Chinese (* {{trreq|Chinese}}) not Mandarin. If you could do that from now it would make it a bit easier for us. BTW, thanks heaps for the translation requests for gay pride! =D Tooironic 10:55, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Inflection templates

I think we need your opinion again. User Razorflame would want me to stop changing <fi-noun> -templates to <infl|fi|noun> -templates saying that there is a need to standardize. Obviously he would prefer <fi-noun>. See discussion here. I recall that we had earlier a discussion where we came into a contrary conclusion. What do you say? --Hekaheka 11:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way, there is a discussion started in the Beer Parlour on this subject as well, in case you are wondering. Razorflame 11:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I say fi-noun is now pretty much useless given we have inflection templates. Language-specific title templates are more sensible for languages that have limited number of inflected forms, and have genders etc. --Jyril 05:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

m:Wiktionary/logo/refresh/voting

I do not want to come across as contumelious but please consider casting your vote for the tile logo as—besides using English—the book logo has a clear directionality of horizontal left-to-right, starkly contrasting with Arabic and Chinese, two of the six official UN languages. As such, the tile logo is the only translingual choice left and it was also elected in m:Wiktionary/logo/archive-vote-4. Warmest Regards, :)--_thecurran Speak your mind ^{my past} 03:21, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, modern Chinese is usually written left to right, what is the problem? :) My vote was based on purely aesthetic values. But yes, I like the tile logo though one could ask why those characters instead of others. --Jyril 05:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

北回归线, 南回归线, 回归线

Hello Jyril. Just some feedback on some of your Mandarin entries:

• Some of these don't have traditional Chinese counterparts.
• Your templates lack simp and/or tra and rs fields.
• You should capitalise the pin field for the proper noun entries.
• Your category tags lack sorting keys (skey).
• You don't need to put "a" when adding a defintion for a Mandarin noun as, strictly speaking, Mandarin does not make a distinction between plural and singular nouns.

Otherwise, good work. I've edited them all now. Feel free to look at the changes. If you have any questions feel free to leave a comment on my talk page or check out How to Create a Basic Chinese Entry. Cheers. Tooironic 23:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Please forgive me, those are among my earliest cmn entries. :) But true, I haven't always added traditional counterparts, because 1) I am too lazy, 2) I'm not always sure about the right characters. Fortunately the cmn-xxx templates are clever enough to warn about missing forms, so the traditional forms can be added later. Good point about the indefinite article, didn't think about that. --Jyril 09:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

For trad/simp conversion I recommend New Tong Wen Tang, it's the bomb. Tooironic 06:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I may use that. --Jyril 06:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Declension question

Is paljakka a solakka-type declension? Razorflame 20:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. You can see all nouns that don't belong to the most common types listed in my homepage under the User:Jyril/test subpage. All verbs are listed under the User:Jyril/verbs subpage. Numbers are from KOTUS. --Jyril 09:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You mind if I add the declension tables to the -kka and -akka ending nouns that you've added as solakka-type nouns? Razorflame 20:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure I won't mind. Just remember not all -kka words inflect in the same way (only the ones listed at User:Jyril/test/14 and compounds formed from them). Please also remember to ditch the {{fi-noun}} templates so that we can keep a record on what words have their declension tables added. --Jyril 20:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm..then again, I don't know what the stems are, so I think it would be better off to let Hekaheka do it :) Cheers, Razorflame 21:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

A discussion you might be interested in

Hi there Jyril. This discussion could value your input. Thanks, Razorflame 21:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

apinamainen

Hi there Jyril. Can you add the comparative and superlative forms of this entry for me and explain to me how to come up with them so that I can add them to my future entries? Also, did I format the declension box correctly for this word? Thanks, Razorflame 20:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I added the comparison forms. Adjectives ending with -nen are really easy, just replace the ending with -sempi for comparative and -sin for superlative. Your declension box is also correct, just make sure to replace the 'a' with 'ä' when dealing with words with front vowel harmony (no vowels aou, ask me if you're unsure). --Jyril 20:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for the help :) I'm going to start working on the form-of entries now, to get the train rolling :) Razorflame 20:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Great! There are so many -nen ending adjectives, I had already lost hope. :) --Jyril 20:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are quite a few. I only added apinamainen because I was looking at the entry for apina and saw it listed under derived terms and it was red, so I figured to add it because it wasn't added, and I derived the translation for the term from the definition of apina (ape, monkey), so I figured that it had to mean simian and apish, because both of them are adjectives that would mean the same thing as apinamainen, and to top it all off, apinamainen was under a translation table for simian, so that helped me to verify the translation =D Razorflame 20:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

elukka

I fixed the declension here because I remembered reading that this kind of noun is a solakka noun, and that usually means that the kk --> k, so that is what I put in. Also, it lists that there are four different genitive plural declensions of this noun. Are the three underneath the first one viable additions here, or are they rarely used? Thanks, Razorflame 07:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing, I always forget that kk→k is not a default gradation for the inflection type (should be, since only a couple of words have tt→t and pp→p gradation). Yes, they're very much viable, the one who added the underlines to the template didn't take into account alternative forms. I've been too lazy to fix them. --Jyril 07:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, cheers :) Razorflame 07:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Another question, are words like netti and marketti some of those tt -> t words that you were talking about earlier? Razorflame 20:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they're risti-type nouns with tt→t consonant gradation. --Jyril 20:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured they were risti-type nouns, but I wasn't sure if they were tt->t nouns. Thanks for the confirmation, Razorflame 21:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

uphill

Uphill isn't a noun. Maybe climb, ascent? Mglovesfun (talk) 07:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Saw one definition uphill = the upward slope of a hill, thought it's ok. --Jyril 07:45, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

hankkiutua

good entry. in the example's provided, it seems like sth/sb gives effort (or neglects to give it). am i getting the right idea? Heyzeuss 14:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Template:fi-decl-kuollut

Hey there. Can you update this template to be like the other ones ({{fi-decl-sisin}} or {{fi-decl-risti}} for example)? Thanks, Razorflame 03:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand. In which way it is not already like the others? --Jyril 05:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Try clicking on either of the genitive plural or illative plural form-ofs and you will see that they are unclickable. Cheers, Razorflame 16:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. --KJBracey 15:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Questions

Hey there Jyril. I've got just a few questions for you to help expand my horizons when it comes to the Finnish language:

• Are there any reputable online dictionaries or other sources for translations of Finnish words into English?
• Are there any reputable sources (preferrably online) that can tell me what declension the word uses? If you can't find one, that is all right. :)
• You said a while ago that you had some pages within your userspace that housed lists of words that were sorted by declension type....could you provide me with links to those?

Please feel free to let me know if you would like me to stop making Finnish form-of entries. You may do so at any point in time if you feel that I am damaging the Wiktionary by making them or if I am doing them wrong.

Thanks, Razorflame 21:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi. (1) I don't know any Finnish-English dictionaries available whose license is compatible with Wiktionary's except for http://www.sanakirja.org but it is mostly based on Wiktionary. You should be familiar with the language before you create your own entries (very easy to make mistakes when a word has multiple meanings). (2) You can use the KOTUS wordlist to generate declensions and conjugations (GNU-licensed wordlist is available here). (3) I meant the subpages of User:Jyril/test and User:Jyril/verbs. You don't need those if you use the KOTUS list. --Jyril 12:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Is it really a mistake to write an entry that has multiple meanings, but you only knew about one of them and included that one because technically, wouldn't that entry written about one correct meaning be a good thing? People could always add on the extra meanings as they start surfacing. In my mind, we are the road pavers right now getting the road completely paved so that we have smooth sailing all the way through :) Thanks for the help :) If you find of any FI-EN dictionaries that you find, let me know :) Razorflame 13:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

By the way, thanks for the webpage :) Razorflame 14:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Mitä tehdä tyypille, joka lisäilee suomenkielisiä termejä, vaikka ei osaa kieltä?

Arvannet, ketä tarkoitan. Tyyppi on saatanallisen ahkera, entryt ovat joskus oikein, useimmiten vähän sinne päin, vällillä päin seiniä. Olen yrittänyt kertoa monin eri tavoin, että hänen pitäisi pysytellä kielissä, joita osaa. Välillä hän pysyy pari päivää poissa, kun on mokannut oikein kunnolla, mutta palaa parin päivän päästä entistä ahkerampana. Hänen sivuhistoriansa pullistelee uhkauksia administraattoreilta, joiden kaikkien sisältö on sama: tee vain asioita, joista ymmärrät edes jotakin. Nyt hän on siirtynyt kieleen, jossa on vähemmän vastusta, ja sama meno jatkuu. --Hekaheka 16:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

No jaa, bännätä ei voi noin vain. Nyt olen sen verran kiireinen, etten asiaan ehdi paljoa puuttua. --Jyril 16:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Espoo

Can you check the declension, especially the illative form? I think it's Espooseen but I'm not sure. heyzeuss 10:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It's right. --Jyril 12:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I must have been pretty tired. I tried to read the table but I was going a bit cross-eyed, so to speak, and I haven't improved much since then. heyzeuss 06:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

promilli

Olet joskus tehnyt tämmöisen. Ainakin helkkarin paljon tavallisempi kirjoitusasu on promille. Onko tämä lipsahdus vai kirjoitetaanko sana jossakin näin? --Hekaheka 05:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Ei tosiaankaan kirjoiteta... --Jyril 07:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

pysäkki

Terve,

Ilmeni sellainen juttu, että "pysäkki" on NSK:n ja minun kielikorvanikin mukaan paperi-tyyppiä. Paperi-taivutustemplaatti ei kuitenkaan nykyisellään salli astevaihtelua. Mitäpä sanoisit sellaisesta ajatuksesta, että lisättäisiin templaattiin kentät 4 ja 5, joihin voisi tarvittaessa laittaa astevaihtelun? Silloin esimerkiksi "pysäkki" kirjoitettaisiin näin: {{fi-decl-paperi|pysä|ä|en|kk|k}}, jolloin paperi olisi edelleen {{fi-decl-paperi|paper}} . Onhan tämä erilainen järjestys kuin muissa templaateissa, mutta varmaankin pienitöisempi kuin yrittää muuttaa koko rakennetta, ainakin luulisin. --Hekaheka 19:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Oletko varma? Paperi-tyyppi poikkeaa risti-tyypistä vain genetiivin ja partitiivin monikkomuotojen osalta, joita on enemmän. Muodot "pysäkeiden", "pysäkeitten" ja "pysäkeitä" kuullostavat järjettömiltä... Parempi pysyä KOTUSin luokittelussa, varsinkin kun useimmat sanat voi tarkistaa suoraan sanalistasta (tosin siitäkin löytyy joitakin helposti havaittavia virheitä).

No juu, siitä olen varma, että NSK:ssa "pysäkki" luokitellaan ryhmään 5*, ja paperi luokkaan 5. Ehkä johtuu iästäni (55) tai murrealueestani (Kemi), että pysäkeiden ja pysäkeitä kuulostavat mielestäni mahdollisilta. Toki ne ovat Google-haun perusteella harvinaisia muotoja. Kumpikin saa Googlessa muutaman sata hittiä ja risti-taivutuksen mukaiset muodot noin tuhat kertaa enemmän. Mutta löytyy muita sanoja, joissa suhde on parempi, esimerkiksi leinikki. Siinä risti-taivutus päihittää paperi- taivutuksen vain 10:1, ja on muistettava, että risti-taivutus sisältyy paperi-taivutukseen. Jos KOTUS luokittelee pysäkin risti-tyyppiseksi, niin olkoon niin, mutta on mahdollisesti muita paperi-tyypin sanoja, joissa astevaihtelua esiintyy Kotuksenkin mukaan. --Hekaheka 17:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Mielenkiintoista. :) Tosiasia kyllä on, että "Nyky"suomen sanakirja on jo varsin vanhentunut monilta osin. Pysytellään kuitenkin KOTUSin luokittelussa, koska se on oikeasti ajan tasalla ja paljon selkeämpi. Taivutusmuodothan on tarkoitettu lähinnä niille, jotka eivät osaa itse sanoja taivuttaa. Poikkeukselliset muodot voidaan ehkä lisätä non-lemma -artikkeleina. Näin olen tehnytkin joidenkin Kalevalan sanojen kohdalla. --Jyril 07:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Tuli vielä mieleen toinen, edelliseen liittymätön juttu. Silloin tällöin törmää "count page" -templaattiin, enkä ole tajunnut, mihin sitä tarvitaan. Se näyttää esiintyvän erityisesti sivuilla, joista puuttuu määritelmä, jota etsitään "defn" -templaatilla. Liittyvätkö nämä asiat toisiinsa, eli voiko "count page"n poistaa samalla, kun lisää määritelmän? --Hekaheka 21:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Count page -templaatti lisätään, jos sivulla ei ole linkkejä toisiin sivuihin. Jostain syystä Mediawikin sivujen laskenta-algoritmi ei ota tällaisia sivuja huomioon. Templaatin voi huoletta poistaa, jos sivulle lisätään linkkejä. --Jyril 21:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About Finnish

I thought that since all of the other languages have one of these pages, so should Finnish. Take a look though, because it is a policy page and needs some collaboration. Now I'm going to snort coke, jumping off a bridge, and join a street gang, because everybody else is doing it. ~ heyzeuss 13:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Zombie entry

Can you write a definition for liietä? The entry is just a shell without a soul. :) ~ heyzeuss 18:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Soul added. There are about a 1.000 similar entries, mostly verbs, see [3]. Verbs are often difficult to translate from one language into another. --Hekaheka 20:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2010-04/Voting policy

I urge you to vote. (I don't know which way you'll vote, but I want more voices, especially English Wiktionarians' voices, heard in this vote.) If you've voted already, or stated that you won't, and I missed it, I apologize.​—msh210℠ 17:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

鸵鸟, et al

Could you please follow standard Mandarin formatting in the future? See How to Create a Basic Chinese Entry for more information. Cheers. ---> Tooironic 05:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Missing things aside, there was nothing actually wrong with that entry. Don't get mad at people for making stubs :p — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure about correct traditional forms, so I skipped them. The templates take care that the entries appear in correct maintenance categories. --Jyril 13:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In other words leave it so other people can clean it up for you? :P For the record I wasn't "getting mad" at you, but I thought you should at least be aware of the standard formatting. If I made non-standard Finnish entries you would do the same. ---> Tooironic 14:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Missing information is not the same as nonstandard formatting. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I suppose, but it really helps the rest of us out if you just do a complete entry in the first place. ---> Tooironic 01:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Finnish inflection types — time to start deleting

I've put in an rfd on Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/sanoa. Care to join the discussion? And if there's anywhere else you think this should be posted, please do so. --KJBracey 15:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) julkinen osakeyhtiö

Is this the same as the English term (deprecated template usage) public limited company? 50 Xylophone Players talk 14:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

It's the same thing, principally. Edited entries accordingly. --Hekaheka 16:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

fi-POS astrisks, conjugation tables, form-of glosses

I finished removing all of the ugly astrisks from the verbs and replacing them with conjugation tables. Now I'm working on nominals.

Since the conjugation tables show the impersonal present connegative form (ei haluta), I've been removing the form-of glosses that show the same thing. Do you have any strong objections? ~ heyzeuss 09:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you a lot for fixing the templates. You have quite a bit of work to do, there are several thousands of them left for nominal forms. And yes I do, I'd like all of the different forms to have own entries. In addition, the articles will correctly show up in the form of categories ("haluta" is also a verb form). And if we someday want to split the categories according to the different forms, the articles will show up in correct categories. But it's not really a big deal, it's so regular that it could be done by a bot later if needed. --Jyril 06:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Declension of housu

Can you add an optional parameter to Template:fi-decl to specify the word being declined? It would be helpful for plural-only words like housut and silmälasit. ~ heyzeuss 17:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

IPA- ja taivutusongelmia

Voisitko auttaa neuvomalla, mitkä IPA-symbolit ovat oikein suomessa. w:Finnish phonology ja Wiktionary:IPA pronunciation key puhuvat osin ristiin. ʋene(ʔ) vai sæde̞ˣ? Merkitäänkö h tavun lopussa ç vai jotenkin muuten? Onko sanan sisällä tavun alkava h aina ɦ, esimerkiksi sanoissa Johannes, Vilho, Terhi? En itse kuule mitään eroa sanan alkavaan h:hon, mutta uskon kyllä itseäni viisaampia. Mitä ovat nämä vokaalien alla olevat merkit, kuten sæde̞ˣ, ɑu̯ne? Eikö diftongin jälkiosan merkitseminen ole turhaa, kun tavujako joka tapauksessa selvittää asian? - Ääntämisohjeiden antaminen suomen nimille tuntuu muutenkin hullun puuhalta, mutta toivon että se inspiroisi muunkielisiä lisäämään nimien ääntämisiä.

Sain selville jostakin, että jäännöslopukkeelle käytetään joskus merkintää [ˣ]. Merkintä [(ʔ)] on minusta kummallinen ja harhaanjohtava, eikä kerro sitä tosiasiaa, että jäännöslopukkeen jälkeinen konsonantti kahdentuu. Suomesta löytyy peräti neljä erilaista /h/-äännettä. (1) Sanan alussa /h/ on [h] (esim. heinä), (2) takavokaalin jälkeen ennen konsonanttia se kuuluu voimakkaampana äänteenä, en ole aivan varma mitä IPA-äännettä se vastaa ([x]?, kahta). (3) [ç] esiintyy etuvokaalin jälkeen ennen konsonanttia (yhtä). (4) [ɦ] esiintyy kahden vokaalin välissä tai ennen konsonanttia (maha, Urho). [e̞, o̞]-merkit osoittavat sen, että vokaalit äännetään matalampana (esim. IPAn perus-[o] on korkeampi kuin meikäläinen [o]). [t̪] tarkoittaa sitä, että t lausutaan niin, että kieli koskettaa hampaita. Joo, diftongin merkitsemistä ei kyllä tarvita. Nämä lisämerkinnät ovat aikamoista pilkunviilausta.

Eri h-äänteillä ei ole merkityksellistä eroa suomen kielessä, siksi niitä ei tule huomanneeksi. Itse asiassa suosittelisin, että käytetään muiden kielten tapaan //-sulkeita IPA-ääntämisohjeissa, niin päästään tästä hässäkästä eroon (eli yleisistä äänteistä vain a [ɑ], nk [ŋk], ng [ŋː], ä [æ], ja ö [ø] poikkeavat kirjoitetusta). Suomen kielen tavutus ja ääntäminen on niin säännöllistä, että sen voisi antaa botin hoidettavaksi.

Miksi teit Kustaavasta koiran, minusta se on kala? Sitä nimenomaan ei pitäisi taivuttaa kuten vastaava, jottei se sekoitu kustavaan, ja lyhenne Taava on selvä kala. Ei sen puoleen että tuntisin yhtäkään Kustaavaa. Kolmitavuiset a-loppuiset naisennimet ovat päänsärky, jos niille ei löydy lähteitä mistään. Google ei auta, koska sieltä löytyy aina jokainen mahdollinen taivutus. --Makaokalani 15:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Minusta se kuullostaa koira-tyyppiseltä, -u-a-a. Korjaa ihmeessä, jos olen väärässä. --Jyril 16:54, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Kiitos tiedoista. En ollut edes huomannut [] ja //- eroa. Vinoviivoja voi aina käyttää epävarmoissa tapauksissa. En tiedä onko etunimien taivutuksissa oikeaa tai väärää, oman nimensä voi ymmärtääkseni taivuttaa miten haluaa, ja nimien monikkomuotoja tarvitaan harvoin. Mutta teen Kustaavasta kalan kunnes joku toisin todistaa.--Makaokalani 10:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Compound and lang

Hello, the compound template takes a lang parameter[4], so it would be nice if you would provide it in future. --Dan Polansky 15:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I always do that. Apparently forgot this time. --Jyril 07:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for having bothered you with this; I could have guessed that you get it right most of the time. --Dan Polansky 10:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for notifying. --Jyril 12:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

laajampi

You might have useful input to my question at User talk:Hekaheka#Laajampi. ~ heyzeuss 12:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

fi-noun vs infl|fi|noun

Your input is needed in a conversation regarding the Finnish part of speech templates. ~ heyzeuss 07:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Ei kukaan declension

Can you take a look at ei kukaan? I did the declension, but commented it out pending a look from a Finn. ~ heyzeuss 14:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Good, because that is a tough one. Had to think a while for the correct forms. The correct ending is -kään, sometimes shortened to -än. Kun-root makes no sense here, nor does the plural (think nobody vs. *nobodies). Also no accusative form, as it describes the object of finished action (how to finish if no object?) Negative form always has partitive (en nähnyt ketään -- I saw nobody.) --Jyril 15:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

In that case, can you check ei mikään, too? It has plurals. ~ heyzeuss 06:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Specifically, ei mitkään. The other plurals are the same as the singulars. Maybe those should be replaced with hyphens. ~ heyzeuss 11:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ouch. What I said about the lack of plural is BS. Fixed the table. Declension of ei mikään is OK. --Jyril 12:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Frequency list

I found a list that shows the frequency of Finnish words words used in printed news. I reproduced it at Wiktionary:Frequency lists/Finnish/notexist, showing the most common words first, with bluelinked words and proper nouns removed. Near the top of the list are: sen sijaan, ainakaan, työryhmä, ohella, and mukaisesti. The full list is available, too, in the form of a sortable table. Proper nouns are uncapitalized, which I would like to fix, someday. ~ heyzeuss 08:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

That's great, I've wanted to see a Finnish frequency list for quite a long time. This list is a bit strange, though. Some not at all that common proper nouns are high in the list (STT, Delhi, etc.) I suspect the sample size is very small. Unfortunately it is not so easy to make a Finnish frequency list because of the large number of inflections (not that it is terribly tough, either). Capitalization is not a problem, it is very easy with proper tools. --Jyril 08:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

It gives 44 million words as the sample size, so that could be all of Iltasanomat for a year. I don't know why they didn't capitalize proper nouns. I'm trying to think of a regex that I can use in Python or in Notepad++. I think there's something in Perl, but I've never used it before. Here's the external link to the study. CSC IT Center for Science - 9996 most common Finnish words

On-the-fly definitions

Yair rand wrote a script where you can edit the definition without loading up the edit page. It also has language tabs at the top, which reduce scrolling. If you want to try it out, click enable, then clear your cache (Internet Explorer, Firefox ctrl+f5). If you hate having any changes to your interface, ignore this completely.

(Please purge your cache so that this button will work.)

~ heyzeuss 06:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! That's one great tool. --Jyril 16:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Grateful for your work

Hello,

I'm working on learning Finnish, and have found the entries on the Wiktionary unbelievably helpful. It appears that you have contributed a great deal. Thank you very much!

Mpoush 13:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I am really happy to hear my work has been useful! For me participation in this website a good way to relax... :) --Jyril 19:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Same here. ~ heyzeuss 13:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

talo

Hi Jyril. In English Wikipedia, I saw talo had comitative and instructive forms. But here, in the template it's "–" instead. What do you think? Sinek 15:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi! You're right, but if you look carefully you see that only the singular forms have lines. That is because instructive and comitative cases in singular do not exist. Plural is used even if a single object is considered! For example, tulin koirineni (comitative plural of koira) could mean both I came with my dog or I come with my dogs.--Jyril 20:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh OK. It's clear now, thanks a lot :) Sinek 12:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Binomial species names.

I don't think we should have entries for binomial species names such as Megascops asio. Generic epithets such as Megascops, yes; specific epithets such as asio, yes; but not the two together. I'm pretty sure that binomial names have been discussed at RFD before, with a consensus to delete them (or most of them), though I don't know where that discussion would be now . . . —Ruakh_TALK 20:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

And why on earth not? Is there any good reason not to include them? I can figure several reasons why we should have them. Example: there is a species that has a common name in several languages, but not in English. A binomial translingual entry could be used to collect these names under a translations table (separate entry for English just for this makes no sense). Plus, what about the all information about etymology, taxonomic synonyms etc.? Should they be put under some volatile English common name? On the other hand, a binomial species name is a very definite term. I see no reason why we shouldn't include them.--Jyril 20:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Binomial entries do not solve the language problem which you present. Translations are only allowed in English entries, ergo they are not allowed in Translingual entries. At least they were not allowed the last time I tried to make them. --Hekaheka 21:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I know, and this is only because of a policy which could be changed. We could (and should) consider translingual entries equal to English in order to eliminate redundancy (everyone is pronouncing species names differently, so we could include English pronunciation guides). Anyway, it is just one example of possible usefulness of the binomial entries.--Jyril 21:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention that binomial names are sometimes far more commonly used than obscure common names; try to find English names for many mushrooms! --Jyril 21:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll echo Jyril, 'why on earth not?' They're rarely if ever going to be sum of parts. No more than a blue whale is any whale of a blue color. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

· Actually, I think that they are always sum-of-parts, in that one sense of asio (perhaps the only sense) is roughly, "{{non-gloss definition|A [[specific epithet]] for Megascops asio, the [[eastern screech owl]]|lang=mul}}". That may sound silly at first blush, since the specific epithet is only meaningful in the context of a particular genus; but we absolutely need an entry for it, because it is not always introduced by the generic epithet. (See e.g. google books:"M. asio".) So an entry for Megascops asio does not remove the need for an entry for asio, but I think an entry for asio does remove the need for an entry for Megascops asio. All of Jyril's points are valid, but I think that most or all of them are mostly or completely addressed by having good entries for specific epithets.
· And by the way, despite what Hekaheka (talk • contribs) might think, I am completely on board with including translations sections for translingual scientific names of taxa, though I'm not sure about the details of how we'd have those translations sections list common names. (Some languages have their own scientific names for taxa, alongside the international names, and that's what we're currently using those translations sections for. We can probably find a way to include both, but we have to put some thought into how to present it. We don't want readers to be misled into thinking that a given translation is a common name when it's actually a scientific name, or vice versa. Though from what I gather, such basic common names as "goose" and "gorilla" and "worm" very rarely correspond to individual species, anyway, so that's probably a completely separate discussion from the discussion of whether to include binomial names.)
—Ruakh_TALK 22:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. I'm personally in favor of including translations to Translingual entries, but I have learned by the hard way that we currently have another policy. --Hekaheka 15:03, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't buy the argument that they are just sum of parts, because as I said, a binomial name is a very specific term (no matter if the words can be presented separately; taken to extreme, your argument could be used against most compound nouns). Megascops is the taxonomic name of a genus of owls, whereas Megascops asio is a certain species, no matter if we can present the words separately. If I understood correctly, your argument is good from the maintenance point of view; in my opinion, we should include all possible terms that are have some specific meaning, and not truly sums of parts (like "red car").

We definitely need entries for the specific epithets, that I agree. Many terms have existing Latin entries. Should we include Translingual section for the list of species that use this epithet? --Jyril 07:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Not only can my argument be used against most so-called "compound nouns", but I believe that it should be. "Red car" does, in fact, have a specific meaning: it means a car that is red. More precisely, it means a car whose body (not chassis/windows/mirrors) has been painted (not rusted) a shade that is called "red" when applied to cars (not a shade that is called "red" when applied to soil or to human hair). So, why haven't you created [[red car]] yet? :-P
And yes, I believe specific epithets are translingual (though EncycloPetey (talk • contribs) disagrees with me, and DCDuring (talk • contribs) may disagree as well). Regardless, the use of asio in reference to Megascops asio is clearly distinct from any other Latin sense of that word, so even if we deem it "Latin" rather than "translingual", it certainly requires its own sense-line.
—Ruakh_TALK 14:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• There is a sister project called Wikispecies that has a fairly comprehensive list of current species names at all levels. They accommodate vernacular names. DCDuring TALK 00:18, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am very familiar with Wikispecies. Its main point is taxonomy, whereas here we should be only interested in the linguistic point of view. Which brings me to another idea I had. We should include all attested taxonomic names, not just the ones that are currently considered valid (e.g. old genera/species names Simia, Trologytes, Trologytes trologytes etc. should be included and their status should be explained in the Usage notes section). --Jyril 07:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually reading Ruakh's argument, I'd be more easily persuaded that (deprecated template usage) asio if it's only used in compounds, never on its own, but (deprecated template usage) Megascops asio would be valid. That's because if asio must be used with another word, it has no independent meaning, thus citations of it conveying meaning are impossible, and it cannot meet CFI. NB I did say if […] --Mglovesfun (talk) 15:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why you even mention the possibility that "it's only used in compounds, never on its own", given that I already demonstrated otherwise by linking to google books:"M. asio". For an example that doesn't always prefix it with anything at all, see here. The point is that, when the genus is clear, asio refers to a specific species. Sometimes the genus is clear because Megascops asio is written explicitly; sometimes it's clear because M. asio is written, with enough context; and sometimes it's clear only because of context. (Now, even if it were used only in compounds, I would reject your argument — a fortiori, we'd have to exclude all affixes — but it's not, so that's moot.) —Ruakh_TALK 12:55, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Word forms with clitics and suffixes

Heyzeuss has produced a list of most frequently used Finnish terms which do not yet appear in Wiktionary. Originally the whole list consisted of red links, but I have made new entries for quite a number of them. The remaining ones are largely words made with possessive suffixes and clitics. While I'm of the opinion that we should not flood Wiktionary with suffixed word forms, these have the merit that they appear on a list of 5000 most frequently used Finnish terms. There are two questions to which I would like to hear your opinion: 1) should we include these entries at all, and 2) if we should, what should the format be? As a basis for discussion I have made two entries with slightly different approaches: (deprecated template usage) majesteettinne and (deprecated template usage) haluatko. The first follows the pattern which we have for inflected forms, i.e. the definition just breaks the term apart into its components. Occasionally a clarifying usage note may be added. The second approach shows the breakdown in etymology section and the definition gives the translation of the term into English. An example sentence may be added, if one so likes. --Hekaheka 17:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest we avoid adding words with personal suffixes and enclitics. Being enclitic forms, they are not "true" inflected forms. Several languages (such as Hebrew) have a large number of these enclitic forms and they are not accepted so Finnish should not be different. However, there are a few exceptions:

• Forms that require a personal suffix (e.g. miehineen, ollakseen; (only 3rd person sg. form, other forms listed by including the {{fi-alt-personal}} template).
• Very common cases (eikö, minunkin, niinhän, onpas etc.). In my opinion, this means words like the most common verbs (their common forms), the negative verb ei, and personal pronouns.
• Special words such as palindromes ((deprecated template usage) apinanipa)

--Jyril 17:30, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

(Slight correction: While the Hebrew-editing community has rejected having entries for words with proclitics that serve as prepositions, it has accepted having entries for words with personal-pronoun suffixes.) I guess the question then is whether very common forms are "special words such as palindromes".​—msh210℠ (talk) 18:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Re: "Several languages (such as Hebrew)": I think the deciding reason that we don't include Hebrew words with proclitics attached was that a single word can have many proclitics; you get forms such as "שכשלאיש" = she- + k'- + she- + l- + a- + ísh = "that when to the man". (At least, that was my deciding reason, and I seemed to be the editor who felt most strongly about it, so I think that makes it the deciding reason.) I think that in Spanish, where the number of enclitic combinations is much smaller (only eleven enclitics total, only one or two at a time — with only a small number of pairs being possible — and only attaching to a small number of forms of each verb), the editors have decided to include them, though so far as I know no one has actually done so except for reflexive verb forms (like levantarse). Y'all should feel free to make whatever decision you think is best for Finnish; don't feel compelled to follow any other language's editors. —Ruakh_TALK 18:16, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, what he said (re Hebrew and Finnish. I dunno about Spanish).​—msh210℠ (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

"Very common cases" leaves room for interpretation. My idea was that any term entering a list of 5000 most frequent terms of a language could be considered common enough. --Hekaheka 18:39, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

That's one possibility. Among the 5000 most common words (including forms) there are several words with enclitics. Including serves the idea of Wiktionary well.--Jyril 18:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

All right then, I'm ready to continue with Heyzeuss's list. Do you have an opinion on the format: breakdown only ((deprecated template usage) majesteettinne) or breakdown + gloss ((deprecated template usage) haluatko)? Or something else? --Hekaheka 19:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Breakdown only is better, the other way is too difficult to maintain (think about words with several meanings). The meaning can be conveyed using example sentences. --Jyril 19:18, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Just for fun, I found there are 84, possibly more, different combinations of enclitic and possessive suffixes. :) --Jyril 18:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

autoa	autoahan	autoakaan	autoakin	autoako	autoakinko	autoakinkohan	autoakohan	autoakos	autoapa	autoapahan	autoapas
autoani	autoanihan	autoanikaan	autoanikin	autoaniko	autoanikinko	autoanikinkohan	autoanikohan	autoanikos	autoanipa	autoanipahan	autoanipas
autoasi	autoasihan	autoasikaan	autoasikin	autoasiko	autoasikinko	autoasikinkohan	autoasikohan	autoasikos	autoasipa	autoasipahan	autoasipas
autoaan	autoaanhan	autoaankaan	autoaankin	autoaanko	autoaankinko	autoaankinkohan	autoaankohan	autoaankos	autoaanpa	autoapaanhan	autoaanpas
autoansa	autoansahan	autoansakaan	autoansakin	autoansako	autoansakinko	autoansikinkohan	autoansakohan	autoansakos	autoansapa	autoapansahan	autoansapas
autoamme	autoammehan	autoammekaan	autoammekin	autoammeko	autoannekinko	autoammekinkohan	autoammekohan	autoammekos	autoammepa	autoammepahan	autoammepas
autoanne	autoannehan	autoannekaan	autoannekin	autoanneko	autoannekinko	autoannekinkohan	autoannekohan	autoannekos	autoannepa	autoannepahan	autoannepas

I favor a measured approach to creating such entries. Some example entries, to show the way enclitics and possessive suffixes are used, would facilitate learning of the language. I would like to have some of the most common of these words in Wiktionary, based on the Open Subtitles analysis performed by Hermitd.

Some words require a certain ending, while others usually have the ending. We should have separate entries for these, as well, to aid searchability and translation. For example, majesteetti almost always ends with -nne, and anybody searching for majesteettinne will find the entry in Wiktionary, now that we have it. Of course, we shouldn't make an entry for each of 84 plus forms for every case of every Finnish word, but we should make room for a few here and there. ~ heyzeuss 20:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, no point to consider the inclusion as all or nothing. --Jyril 06:58, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

That's a good table, so I added it to Category:Finnish enclitic particles. ~ heyzeuss 11:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Tulikohan toimituksi liian nopeasti?

Terve,

Huomasin tässä pari päivää sitten, että suomen verbimuoto, joka päättyy "-eet" (NUT-partisiipin monikko sekä monikon perfektin, pluskvamperfektin ja monikon preesensin kieltomuodon pääverbin muoto) on esitetty Wiktionaryssä kahdella formaatilla. Toinen esitteli sen "plural past indicative connegative" muotona ja toinen "active past participle in plural" -muotona. Päätin yhdistää nämä ja lisätä vielä kolmannen määrityksen, joka kertoo verbimuodon perfekti- pluskvamperfektiluonteen. Lopputuloksen voit nähdä vaikkapa tässä. Tehtyäni näitä joitakin satoja hoksasin, että tämähän ei oikeastaan ole verbin perfekti- tai pluskvamperfektimuoto, vaan tarkalleen ottaen on sitä vasta "olla"-verbin asianmukaisen muodon kanssa. Kysynkin nyt mielipidettäsi siitä, mitä nyt tehtäisiin. Vaihtoehtoja on ainakin:

1. ei välitetä pikku epätarkkuuksista ja annetaan olla näin,
2. poistetaan koko perfekti- ja pluskvamperfektimaininta ja ajatellaan, että ihmiset tietävät, että NUT-partisiippia käytetään näiden muotojen muodostamiseen,
3. korjataan tekstiä niin, että siitä ilmenee se seikka, että "olla"-verbikin tarvitaan sopivassa muodossa, tai
4. pidetään vain NUT-partisiipin monikko, kuten näytät alun perin määritelleen.

Kysyy --Hekaheka 12:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls

After the first 500 times {{#ifexist:...}} appears on a given page, it stops checking if the referenced page exists, and just assumes that it doesn't. So, some of these rhymes-pages don't work properly.

Instead of using {{#ifexist:page-name|[[page-name|display-text]]|display-text}}, I think it's best to just use [[page-name|display-text]]. If you don't want the links to be red, you can add the table to class inflection-table (e.g. by changing class="wikitable" to class="wikitable inflection-table"); they'll still be links to the edit-pages, but they won't be so distracting to the eye.

Thanks,
—Ruakh_TALK 13:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

*h₂érh₃trom

Hello, since you’re Finnish (jag skriver på engelska) and seem to be good with etymologies, could you confirm this edit and perhaps check so that the Finnish descendant (loan) on *h₂érh₃trom is correct? My Swedish etymological dictionary says that ”aura” is a loan from Germanic and ”atra” is as well, which is listed as a dialectal form of ”aura”. However I also found this w:fi:Aatra so I am somewhat confused. The current etymology at aura also lists Estonian ader, is that also a direct Germanic loan in that case? Do you think you could help me? --Lundgren8 (t · c) 16:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

head with no parameters

Please use {{head|fi}} instead of head on its own. I'm assured there is a good reason for this, though frankly I don't fully understand that reason. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

'kay, will do. --Jyril 16:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Finnish agent participles

Hi! It's great work that you have with the conjugation tables. :) Anyways, there's one error: the agent participles. For example, the verb yöpyä cannot have an agent participle (*yöpymä), because the verb is intransitive. Therefore, could you please edit the conjugation in the way that it doesn't automatically create the red page for the supposed agent participles? Because it seems like the bots create them automatically. (For example, in the case of *yöpymä.) And yeah, I know some nouns are strictly speaking derived from that participle (e.g. kuolema), but still, the automatic creation of the red pages for agent participles produces tons of...sorry for speaking this way :D...rubbish, because intransitive verbs are the overwhelming majority in the group of verbs that end in -ua and -yä, for example. -- Frous 18:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, I'll add option for removing agent participle in intransitive verbs. Words like kuolema and elämä are not agent participles, -ma is also an ancient denominal suffix. --Jyril 06:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Parameter noagent added to {{fi-conj-sanoa}}. It can be added to other conjugation templates in the same way. See (deprecated template usage) istuutua for example of usage. --Jyril 06:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, great. Btw, do you run any bots? I might need some help in the Finnish Wiktionary. I'd like to auto-create tons of verb form pages for redlinks based on the data that is used in the conjugation appendices. (In English: I wan't the Finnish wikt pass by a couple of other wikis in terms of page counts. :P) If you have time to put a bot into work for that purpose, I'll let you know all the details. Personally, I don't know shit about coding and I don't have so much time to learn that so I'd be really thankful. :) -- Frous (talk) 10:33, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, no experience in bot coding. And currently absolutely no time. Shouldn't be complicated, though, especially if only new pages are generated. There are plenty of bot experts active in this wiki, you might want to consult them. --Jyril (talk) 11:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Template fi-form of

Hi! That template needs quite desperately the automatic feature that it links to the Finnish section of the target page where the lemma form is located. ATM, it's quite annoying to keep scrolling, for example to the Finnish section of ala. Thnaks in advance, keep up the good work! -- Frous (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Finnish Templates

Looking back it seems you are or have become something of a Finnish template guru so you see seem to be a good person to address my issue to.

Like most foreigners who live in Finland (and unlike most Finns) my first exposure to Finnish has been thru the formal written language. That is what we non Finns see in our "Finnish for Foreigners" text books and its what the language schools teach. Schools teach the formal language on the basis that everyone understands you if you use it and it helps to read letters and newspapers. The problem is, that when you meet the language in real life, people just don't speak like this. As a foreigner I have been confused many times when people have spoken to me and used grammatical structures I am not familiar with. At no time have I ever been taught the full verb conjugation set for the SPOKEN language (which is, after all, how most Finns use the language in their everyday business. This absence of exposure to the structure of verbs in the spoken language has been a horrible headache for me. I personally feel that the spoken language is every bit as important as the written language and that Wikipedia and Wiktionary should explain the rules for both.

I have encountered this issue with foreigners. I wonder if the reason is 1) the spoken language is considered as "inferior" or "corrupted", an attitude that was common among old mother tongue teachers and/or 2) we learn spoken language naturally, written is something that has to be taught, and we don't realize that is not true for non-natives.

I have been thinking that Wikitionary should show the verb conjugations in both spoken language and the formal written language. At the moment we have only one version. People have said to me "just remember to use the passive in the 3rd person" but that is not so. Take for example, "they haven't been in Russia". This would be "He eivät ole olleet Venäjällä" in the formal language, but most Finns I think would actually say "Ne ei oo ollu venäjällä" with every element of the verb phrase being different. I see no reason why Wiktionary should suppress the presentation of the everyday language. Personally I think the only reason that dictionaries in book form in Finland describe the formal language style is because most litte Finns spent the first 7 years of their life learning one form of the language, only to have to spend the next 7 years learning to use the more stylized and intricate formal language. The nightmare (for some I presume) has, I think, given the spoken language something of a bad name. Perhaps therefore they naturally tend to teach the formal language to others forgetting the real value of their everyday language which is not only just as functional, it is actually the most common form in use.

You raise some good points. However, I don't agree we are "suppressing" spoken language here, the problem is the lack of standardization. Written language has very specific forms, whereas spoken language varies from place to place, different people speak differently and so on... For example, being from Central Finland, I never pronounce the ä:s in mä or sä short, in my ear that sound very uncomfortable and on the other hand my mää and sää sound like sheep's bleating in the ear of Helsinki people. :) The situation is no doubt same with other languages.

What do you think? Can we have templates for the spoken language as well as the formal language?Could you help develop them? I have tried raising te issue in the Finnish language Wiktionary without much excitement being generate. But I think the non Finnish Wikis are different because of the numbers of non Finns using them,. See also this. 84.250.230.158 15:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure if that is workable. However, I would like to include really common spoken language forms (mä, sä and their dialectal variations, oo, onks, emmää etc.) Maybe we could include some additional specialized inflection tables for the most common verbs like olla. --Jyril (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Modifying declensions

Can you join the conversation at User_talk:Sentree#Modifying declensions and check the recent Finnish edits of the user? --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Factive verbs?

I think you really meant factitive...? —CodeCat 17:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

What I understood factitive (faktitiivi) is nowadays somewhat outdated, and factive (faktiivi) is used instead. Factive verb has also other meanings. --Jyril (talk) 17:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen the word "factive" used at all, while I've seen "factitive" quite a lot... —CodeCat 18:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I used "factitive" verb here because it was used in Nykysuomen sanakirja. But that "modern Finnish" book is from '50s... All the modern linguistics text I found use "factive". --Jyril (talk) 18:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course, the situation could be different in English. --Jyril (talk) 18:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Late to the party but I'll just chime in with this link since I'm a native speaker and this would have caught me too. Helrasincke (talk) 15:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

fi-decl-koira

Osaatko kertoa, missä sanassa tai sanoissa "koira"-taivutustemplaatin parametri n:o 6 tulisi käyttöön? Minä en nimittäin keksi yhtäkään, enkä löytänyt "Finnish koira-type nominals" -listaakaan selatessani yhtään potentiaalista kandidaattia. Jos sille ei ole käyttöä, niin sen voisi kai poistaa kummittelemasta? --Hekaheka (talk) 19:15, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Enpä kyllä keksi, mihin sitä tarvitaan. Poistin sen, samoin kuin seitsemännen parametrin jota tarvitaan vain sanassa (deprecated template usage) neljätoista.--Jyril (talk) 20:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Hoksasin, mihin kuutosparametriä tarvitaan: sitä voi käyttää esim. sanan reikä taivutuksessa heittomerkin lisäämiseen. Palautin sen monikon inessiiviin, elatiiviin, adessiiviin, ablatiiviin ja allatiiviin. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No niinpäs olikin. --Jyril (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

...ja tietysti myös transitiiviin, instruktiiviin ja abessiiviin. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Finnish terms needing attention

Listalla on nyt pitkä rivi sivuja tyyppiä Appendix:Finnish declension/xxxx. Huomasin, että nämä poistuvat, jos appendixissa lisää siellä käytettyihin fi-decl-xxx templaatteihin määreen nocheck=1. Katso vaikka Appendix:Finnish declension/koira. Onko ratkaisu mielestäsi OK? --Hekaheka (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

fi-conj

Olen useamman kerran miettinyt, että pitäisikö imperatiivin perfekti poistaa taivutuskaavoista. Se on aika teoreettinen rakenne ja ainakin minun on vaikea kuvitella sille mitään oikeaa käyttöä. Mitä mieltä olet? --Hekaheka (talk) 06:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Kyllä se saa mielestäni olla siinä, vaikka harvinainen onkin. Jos puhutaan oikeasti turhan teoreettisista muodoista, niin mieleen tulevat ainakin imperatiivin yksikön ensimmäinen persoona, optatiivi ja eventiivi (tosin näitä jälkimmäisiä tapaa silloin tällöin). --Jyril (talk) 07:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Näitähän meillä ei taivutuskaavoissa olekaan, vaan vain yksittäisinä sanoina. --Hekaheka (talk) 10:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Huomasin juuri, että suomenkielisessä Wiktionaryssä imperatiivin perfektimuotoja ei esitetä. Antaneeko tämä mielestäsi aihetta harkita asiaa uudemman kerran täällä englanninkieliselläkin puolella? --Hekaheka (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Minusta ne saavat siellä edelleenkin olla. --Jyril (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

säen

So, what's the story here? Are this user's edits mostly accurate, but with a few mistakes? Is this a highly productive vandal? Something in between? —Ruakh_TALK 12:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the alert. I left him a comment. --Jyril (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

kimelle

There's one "m" missing, isn't there (kimaltaa > kimalle; kimmeltää > kimmelle)? Hekaheka (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Oikeassa olet, se on typo sanasta kimmelle. Väärä muoto poistettu. --Jyril (talk)

(tr. -> + partitive)

Hi, on page tuskastella, it says "(tr. -> + partitive)". What does this mean? I'm guessing something like "when transitive, takes partitive case", right? I'm trying to get rid of instances of "tr." and other unhelpful abbreviations around Wiktionary, to improve readability of some entries. Could you explain what (tr. -> + partitive) means, and we can change it to something more comprehensible perhaps. Thanks. --81.9.217.33 08:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe because when the verb can be used as transitive, the objective takes partitive case.--Jyril (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Finnish new entry templates

I thought it might be a good idea to have model new entry templates like some other languages do. For that purpose, I have written the following new templates: fi-new-adj, fi-new-adv, fi-new-noun, fi-new-compoundnoun and fi-new-verb. The adjective template has a Documentation-page which explains my idea with a little bit of detail. Modifying the Swedish model, I also wrote User_talk:Hekaheka/kokeilu which shows how the gateway page might look like. My editing authorization does not allow me to go further than this. I have two requests to you:

1. Would you like to comment on my plan?
2. Do you think you could finalize the project as you have the necessary permissions to do it?

--Hekaheka (talk) 13:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

1. The templates look good! I would however add the primary stress mark (ˈ) in the beginning of IPA text, as it is almost always there.
2. I am quite busy now, but let's see. --Jyril (talk) 08:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Template:fi-decl-sitruuna

Hello! I have changed all the KOTUS's 13th declinations word's (Katiska-type) templates from {{fi-decl-sitruuna}} to {{fi-decl-katiska}}, because katiska is the exampleword of the 13 declination (declension) of KOTUS. That is why {{fi-decl-sitruuna}} has always been useless. So I would ask you to delete that.--Sentree (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, done. --Jyril (talk) 16:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sami

Since you created some of the Sami entries, I thought you should be aware of the discussion at WT:TR#Northern_Sami. Cheers, - -sche (discuss) 22:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Index Help for Index:Dhivehi

Hello, Jyril. Since I think you worked on Index:Finnish, I thought that I could ask you for help on Index:Dhivehi, which I created. My Facebook man Naail Naseer thought that I should make Dhivehi-language entries that are linked to pages of the index, similar to how a few (or some?) Finnish entries are linked. Do you remember mush? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't like how some Finnish entries are linked to the index list because it is against the standard formatting. Also, when the index list changes, the old links become useless. --Jyril (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

As advised at the Grease Pit, I've asked Conrad.Irwin about adding the Dhivehi index to the list of automatically updated indexes. Could it help in anything? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

You mean the index page updates according to the Dhivehi words? That is good if you don't have a good word list & there wouldn't be red links.--Jyril (talk) 17:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Stephen told me that Conrad seldom visits us anymore. However, Naail Naseer registered as Luceatlux. Mind if we train him? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:11, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Proto-Uralic

Hello Jyril, Do you have experience with Proto-Uralic and the sound rules for Proto-Finno-Permic/Proto-Ugric/Proto-Samoyedic? Thanks, Jackwolfroven (talk) 20:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, no. --Jyril (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Template:mul-proper noun

If you are still interested, see Template_talk:mul-proper_noun. DCDuring TALK 00:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Guidelines for Proto-Uralic

Hi,

I've created Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Uralic for putting together guidelines on the topic. I'm CC'ing a bunch of users I know to have done work related to Uralic etymology. Feel free to pass this message further along too. --Tropylium (talk) 20:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

marosii

Hi, you haven't been around for a while, but if you get this message, would you mind checking an on-going RFV discussion on marosii. --Hekaheka (talk) 20:03, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Use of "aspect"

Hi Jyril, first of all thank you so much for your contributions to Finnish! I'm wondering, however, if your use of the term "aspect" is applying to something I'm not familiar with. I've seen a number of pages which refer to verbs in "passive aspect", or "translative aspect". Neither of these are "aspects" in the linguistic sense, so I'm wondering if something more neutral such as "form" would be more appropriate. --ibarrere (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Admin

Hey, to shake things up I'm gonna try to have you de-adminned. --I learned some phrases (talk) 22:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

The desysopping vote is here: Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2019-04/User:Jyril for unadminization ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 07:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)