User talk:KJBracey

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Finnish tables

It's good to see some of that code taken out of the entries and placed in templates. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your edits... but please don't bother to make big efforts fixing the tables, I am in the process of removing them. The use of NSK numbering was a mistake in my opinion, its inflection guides are outdated, and in some cases they are really vague. Instead, please use fi-decl-xx or fi-conj-xx templates on entry pages... Also, please use {{infl}} template and inflection/conjugation tables on entry pages instead of {{fi-noun}} etc. templates. In that way, it is easier to see how a word is inflected, plus the Finnish entries follow more closely the standard. But please use those templates when you are not adding a inflection/conjugation table so we can see which entries are incomplete.--Jyril 21:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Numbering of inflection classes

Hi, if we use numbering in inflection types, I think we should stick to the KOTUS numbering system (1-52 for declension and 53-78 for conjugation types)... The NSK version is very confusing and isn't even up to date. --Jyril 08:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The numbering, and grouping, is really just an artefact of the pages being moved from the old NSK pages. I'm not an expert, but I'd agree that it sounds sensible to work to the KOTUS system.

So I'd say the proposal is that we have a Appendix:Finnish conjugation|declension type/XXX page roughly for each KOTUS entry; XXX should usually be the KOTUS model word. For simplicity, there should probably be a 1-to-1 correspondence between Template:fi-conj-XXX and the appendix pages, but we can probably code-share between templates - one template could just transclude another with an extra parameter to vary it.

Both KOTUS and NSK numbers should be given in the appendix article though, if less prominently.

What about the consonant gradations? The current articles have the A-L gradation variant scheme. Is that from the NSK? Does KOTUS do anything similar? It seems like overkill to have a whole table for each gradation to me, as it's entirely regular in most cases. Maybe just list the possible gradations for the type in a brief summary table, with the few key cases/conjugations to illustrate.

And the separate front/back vowel illustration in the appendix also seems pointless, as it's totally regular, and the specific form for the word is now going to be on the word's own page. I'll start drafting prototype appendix pages for sanoa and valo to see what they might look like, before we start revising.

Also - what about the stem "dot" markers in the tables on those pages? Useful, or not? I'm not totally convinced. --KJBracey 13:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with all of you points. Yes, the KOTUS numbers are listed here and gradation types here. I also did what you ask for the {{fi-decl}} template. Please let me know when you're finished editing it.--Jyril 06:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

deletions

I deleted the three user pages you asked to be deleted. Do you also want me to delete any of the redirects left behind by the pages and templates you've moved? — Carolina wren discussió 20:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

list of moves

   * 11:48, 6 April 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Template:fi-decl-autio to Template:fi-decl-valtio ‎ (revert)
   * 11:08, 6 April 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Template:fi-decl-kohtalo to Template:fi-decl-palvelu ‎ (revert)
   * 09:41, 3 April 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/17 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/toimia ‎ (revert)
   * 18:15, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/voida to Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/voida over redirect ‎
   * 13:14, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/28 to Appendix:Finnish declension types/maa ‎ (revert)
   * 13:11, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/29 to Appendix:Finnish declension types/puu ‎ (revert)
   * 10:27, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/31 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/valita ‎ (revert)
   * 09:59, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/27 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/mennä ‎ (revert)
   * 09:50, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/25 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/tulla ‎ (revert)
   * 08:27, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/verbs/erota to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/erota ‎ (revert)
   * 08:12, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/38 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/verbs/erota ‎ (revert)
   * 06:35, 31 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/1 to Appendix:Finnish conjugation types/sanoa ‎ (Start to transition verb conjugations following noun model) (revert)
   * 13:12, 30 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/22 to Appendix:Finnish declension types/isompi ‎ (revert)
   * 12:39, 27 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/41 to Appendix:Finnish declension types/tosi ‎ (revert)
   * 12:37, 27 March 2009 KJBracey (Talk | contribs | block) moved Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns/40 to Appendix:Finnish declension types/susi ‎ (revert)

Possessive suffixes in adjective forms

Hi, I want to thank you for your improvements on the inflection templates, highly appreciated... I noticed that you have set possessive suffix on by default in the case of comitative plural in {{fi-decl-vanhempi}}, {{fi-decl-sisin}}, and {{fi-decl-onneton}}. However, as you know these forms are almost exclusively for adjectives which are not assigned with possessive suffixes, so the parameter should have an empty default value instead of en. Also, I added -i- to the {{fi-decl-sisin}} template, because every word of that class have it. --Jyril 17:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

My pleasure. For the possessive suffix, I've never been terribly keen on having it attached in the table at all, even though I've kept it in there the new templates I've made for consistency. It's not really part of the declension/conjugation, even if the language requires one on nouns. Maybe it should go altogether?

Another thought - do we really want the obsolete forms shown? The current fi-decl and fi-conj templates show them in the appendix only, and I've kept them in so as not to lose information from the old tables. But are they just clutter? --KJBracey 14:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Finnish declension templates

I don't really like the idea of what you're doing with these e.g. {{fi-decl-paperi}}. While I do think that all those redlinks make the tables look bad I think the best solution is to make it so that the Finnish tables give their links like the the ones at fa#Hungarian. 50 Xylophone Players talk 22:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I've no strong feelings about whether ifexist on the links is appropriate or not - I'm just aiming for consistency, and centralising of functions, so we don't have to change lots of places for a change of style. I want style to be in one place only, if possible, and the higher-level templates to be just information.

Finnish verbs using {{fi-conj}} were using #ifexist before I ever touched them. Possibly Jyril's work? Nominals weren't. I resolved the inconsistency by changing the nominals to match the verbs.

In doing that, I've changed all the fi-decl-XXX templates to not have the explicit links. Then the decision on whether to link or not is up to {{fi-decl}} and {{fi-conj}}. If you want to remove the #ifexists, or remove links altogether, do it there, not in the 75 subtemplates. --KJBracey 13:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I've just realised you might have missed that {{fi-decl}} is using #ifexist. I've not removed all linking; it links if the entry exists. Apparently lots of #ifexist can be a bit stressful on server load, but like I said, when I did fi-decl, I was just following the example of fi-conj, and that had more ifexists than fi-decl ended up with. --KJBracey 13:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I think for now the verbs should stay as they are since there are so many forms (almost but not quite as bad as Ancient Greek ;) ) but I think I'll revert the fi-decl. 50 Xylophone Players talk 08:45, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. would you mind taking it out? (I can't seem to wrap my head around programming languages very well [as I have not tried to learn any])

Hi, would you mind taking that out if possible? 50 Xylophone Players talk 22:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not angry or anything but are you ignoring me? 50 Xylophone Players talk 17:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Hiya - sorry. Um, basically I don't really agree with your proposed change, but mainly on consistency grounds. I don't think verbs and nominals should be handled differently. If you wanted to make both the nominal and verb tables have red links, I wouldn't argue. But I suspect others would, so I don't want to be the one making the change, and getting involved in the arguments. :)

If you want to change it yourself, the change should be simple. You need to find each instance of {{#ifexist|foo|[[foo]]|foo}} (which means "if the page 'foo' exists, put a link to foo here, else just put the word foo in"), and replace them with [[foo]], in the fi-decl and fi-conj templates. Of course, in most cases foo is more complicated - at least something like {{{33}}}, leading to a lot of curly brackets you have to keep track of. At least you'd be simplifying it. --KJBracey 10:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Fan Mail

KJ, Thank you for your hard work on the Finnish inflection templates. They have helped me a lot; I moved to Finland recently and I'm trying to learn the language. Presently, I'm trying to make a list of words that have a vanishing K. Trouble is, I can't figure out how to perform a clean search. I'm thinking along the lines of querying a dump of the index of Finnish words, but I'm not real hot with scripting, and I don't know how to get the list on one page. Can you recommend a good strategy? Heyzeuss 20:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back! I thought we had lost you for good. Thank you for fixing taitaa and tietää. ~ heyzeuss 14:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi - yes, some renewed interest from me... Sorry, I didn't have an easy answer for your 'k' question. If you could find all calls to a fi-conj-xxx template with either parameter 2 or 3 being "k", and the other being "", that would probably do the job. So that's either a pretty advanced search, or maybe something that could be done with some upgrades to each of the fi-conj-xxx templates. Unfortunately, Template:fi-conj doesn't know anything about consonant gradation, so it can't be done in one place. A bit beyond me, I'm afraid. --KJBracey 14:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Tuntea

I moved tuntea from the Wiktionary to the Appendix namespace because it is no longer in use in its old place. I updated it and added some notes. I still haven't added the consonant gradation tables though. ~ heyzeuss 15:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll tidy it up. --KJBracey 15:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tidying up, for the new template, and for reviewing my notes. I didn't have any sources, so it was just my own disjointed observation. I had hoped to get some kind of correction or clarification, which is what you provided, so thank you. ~ heyzeuss 18:45, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Finnish declension

Hi, it might be in your interest to note this. :) 50 Xylophone Players talk 12:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, not sure about that {{fi-decl-see}}. For something that's essentially a phrase, like that, I would suggest a declension section isn't worthwhile at all - you would need each word declined, and there should be links to the separate words already, so you don't need another link.

But for a compound or prefixed words, you may as well have the declension in full, surely? Doesn't take any more space on the page, once it's collapsed. The only reason I can think of not to do so is to stop compounds and prefixed words showing up in the "list of XXX-type words". Is that desirable?

So I'm not sure I agree with either use of fi-decl-see. --KJBracey 14:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, fi-decl-see's been around for ages (relatively speaking). How come I've never seen it before? Must be in the distinct minority of compound words. (I could count the Finnish phrase pages I've seen on one hand). --KJBracey 14:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't like those usages at all (yes, I also think compound words SHOULD have declension tables)... >.< I think maybe if it could be adapted it cold be used to link to multiple words. 50 Xylophone Players talk 16:16, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

So, for julkinen osakeyhtiö, can't we just omit the Declension section? The individual words are linked under the Noun heading. So I don't think you need to say "see XXX" a second time in a bright blue box. It seems to me that the convention in Wiktionary is that multi-word entries are pretty minimal, only existing for definition/meaning, rather than getting bogged down in grammar of the individual words. --KJBracey 16:55, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I guess you have a point there. Btw, would you mind converting some of those entries so that they have normal declension tables? It's a bit much for one person to do I find. 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Consonant gradation categories

I'm trying to make consonant gradation categories that are fed automatically by {{fi-conj}}. My parser functions aren't quite working though. Can you take a look? This is the part that I put in the noinclude section.

{{#ifeq:{{{3}}}|d|{{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|t|[[Category:Finnish {{{type}}}-type verbs/consonant gradation d-t]]}}}}

It should categorize huuhtoa. ~ heyzeuss 15:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Um, that's not going to work. "{{{2}}}" and "{{{3}}}" for Template:fi-conj are the 2nd and 3rd person personal present - ie "huuhdot" and "huuhtoo". To do what you want, you're going to have to put that code in Template:fi-conj-sanoa, and every other fi-conj-xxx, to isolate the actual gradating consonants. And note that the relevant fields aren't 2 and 3 for every such template - sometimes they're 3 and 4, or they don't exist at all. Also, be aware that people haven't always been consistent with usage. For example, people could have done either "help|p||o" or "hel|pp|p|o". --KJBracey 11:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me. I may or may not want to go to all that trouble. I am interested in sorting them out; for example, I have been wanting to see a list of all of the k→null words entered in Wiktionary. ~ heyzeuss 14:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

fi-noun vs infl|fi|noun

You may want to provide input in a conversation regarding the Finnish part of speech templates. ~ heyzeuss 14:25, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

fi declension template

Hi! I would like to understand why you changed d's and t's in the declension formula Template:fi-decl-käsi to {{{d|d}}} and {{{t|t}}} (Revision as of 18:11, 8 April 2009). If I understand correctly, this does not affect the output in any way. --Hekaheka 10:04, 1 March 2011 (UTC)