Template talk:hu-noun

I'd like to suggest augmenting this template template to show the form of the accusative. The accusative form is more common and therefore more likely to be encountered than the plural since in most situation the noun is unmarked for number. Since the accusative is usualy formed in the same way as the plural it should only require minor change to the template for example adding a named parameter irgAcc. OrenBochman 01:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

@OrenBochman I just came across your message that you left ten years ago. I wholeheartedly agree that it would be great but (1) I don't think I can implement it because it would need a replacement (k > t) within the value received an as argument, (2) in contrast with the plural, the accusative often doesn't take a linking vowel when followed by a soft consonant (j, l, n, ny, r, s, sz, z, zs) so all these endings would need to be handled as irregular or another sub-rule should be introduced for them, which still allows for irregularities. In fact, I'd also include the third-person singular single-possession possessive ending as well (-a/-e/-ja/-je), because it's also very common and also essential to know. But my knowledge is pretty limited in this programming language; what I can do is copy and paste with minor changes. Adam78 (talk) 16:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Countable and uncountable vs. Usually uncountable

@Panda10: I think the use of "countable and uncountable" needs some improvement here because currently it's often applied to cases when the countable sense is almost unheard of (not necessarily impossible, only rare and/or special). Luckily, there is a solution for such nouns in {{en-noun}}, marked by a tilde (~), for "countable and uncountable", and the hyphen is actually reserved for "usually uncountable" (see the description).

I think most nouns that are currently included in Category:Hungarian countable and uncountable nouns (and many other nouns that are simply marked currently as having a plural form, like másnap) should be recategorized as "usually uncountable", which still makes it possible to enter the less common plural form (just like the English template allows for "rains" in rain). I think we should leave "countable and uncountable" for nouns where the countable sense has an acknowledged, lexicalized sense.

For example, arany can mean "a golden medal" in the countable sense, föld can mean a plot of land in the countable sense, sebesség can mean "a gear" in the countable sense, zene can mean "a piece of music" in the countable sense, and nátha can refer to a particular case of cold in the countable sense. Compare them with most of the nouns listed in the category above. What are vaskorok, tönkölybúzák, sajtók, arisztotelianizmusok etc. supposed to mean? Maybe you can find instances of them if you really want to, but I think it's misleading to indicate their lemmas as countable and uncountable, similar to arany, föld etc.

Instead, I these nouns should belong to "usually uncountable" (with the plural form still given afterwards) and this latter should be the default for abstract nouns, names of materials, and other mass nouns. We could manually replace the hyphen with a tilde in those few cases (similar to the five examples above) where both types of meaning exist without doubt. What do you think? Adam78 (talk) 16:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adam78 I think this is a great idea. It will definitely be an improvement. Panda10 (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Panda10 Thank you. I think I've implemented it, although there is a line whose function I don't understand (right before the line where I changed "ifeq" to "switch" and a little syntax afterwards). Perhaps the same kind of change should be executed there; I'm not sure.

I wonder what to do with names of languages, like portugál. First of all, I guess the head should have the tilde, indicating the countable and the uncountable sense (although the ethnonym/nationality may not apply to every language). Below, the sense of the language is currently given with the label "singular only". This might be either deleted or modified with "nocat=y" because it makes Category:Hungarian singularia tantum practically useless: due to the numerous language names, it's hard to find those that are actually singularia tantum, like the names of compass points. What about fodrászat, halma, okulás, optika, első, and közös? I think we could simply insert "~|" or "-|" in the head in the entries of nouns where the plural form is not possible in all senses or uncommon, respectively. In this case, okulás and halma could be included in category:Hungarian uncountable nouns (which is meant as "usually uncountable nouns", but the standard name doesn't include "usually"), while the other terms are both countable and uncountable. By the way, you can try looking up ÉrtSz entries including "csak egyes számban". I suppose all these could be added to category:Hungarian uncountable nouns (in the above sense, "usually").

Concerning singularia tantum, I've found this article (see especially pp. 353–355, pp. p–11 in this PDF), which could help us decide which terms to keep there. (I don't think language names belong there; "countable and uncountable" is more truthful, in my opinion.) Maybe it should be a parent category for Category:hu:Materials, Category:Hungarian collective nouns/Category:Hungarian nouns of multitude (the latter term may cover gyűjtőnév better), and category:Hungarian proper nouns; I'm not sure. They may not be singularia tantum in the same sense as Category:Hungarian pluralia tantum are ones, as the author of the study points it out. Adam78 (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adam78 I've updated the documentation to reflect the changes. Feel free to improve it. As for the questions:

1. Code: I have no idea what that line does.
2. Language names: Adding the tilde and removing the singular only label would work.
3. Categories: It might be better to decide the categories after the cleanup in step 2 above. We might see the best way more clearly. Panda10 (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Panda10 Thank you for updating the documentation. I've added the tilde and removed singular only from language names. Now we can look into the rest, hopefully. Adam78 (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adam78 I think the category structure is fine. I wouldn't change it. I've read the paper, on page 9 in the PDF it says: "Úgy tűnik, a magyarban egy szóról nem lehet teljes biztonsággal megállapítani, vajon singulare tantum-e vagy sem, mert a magyarban talán nincs olyan főnév, amelynek elvileg, nyelvtanilag nem lenne képezhető a többes száma (legfeljebb furcsán, szokatlanul hangzik a kapott szóalak, pl. sarak, levegők)." In section 9, she lists the singulare tamtum groups but I don't always agree with the example words. Items in the food groups could be used in the plural, e.g. "A szomszédom különleges paradicsomokat termel." I think we should decide on an individual bases. I would not rush into changing groups of nouns just because she listed them. Panda10 (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Panda10 I don't want to insist on the statements on this study; all I want is to clarify its function, purpose, and relation with Category:Hungarian uncountable nouns, the way that it suits us best, possibly without redundancy, with respect to the great deal of overlap between their scope. Maybe we could even delete the category of "singularia tantum" if we cannot or don't want to delimit it from "uncountable nouns". Adam78 (talk) 16:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Panda10 Maybe terms like híja, zöme could be placed here, and it could be a subcategory of Uncountable nouns, as a stricter, narrower case, where the plural is not (only) semantically but (also) morphologically impossible. (Although vannak még híjai ennek a megoldásnak might be possible.) Anyway, I think its definition or criteria should be ideally based on morphology. Adam78 (talk) 15:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adam78 I think we should keep the singularia tantum category. My preference would be to adhere to the predetermined category structure that is created by {{auto cat}} and add related categories by "see also". Otherwise, the structure may become too convoluted and will not follow possible future changes in the category tree. Panda10 (talk) 18:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Panda10 As a rule, I agree with it, but since their overlap affects other languages as well, the categorization itself might need some revision (or clarification at the very least). Maybe we could consult other editors whether they agree that these categories partly overlap and so singularia tantum should be a subcategory of uncountable nouns (or if not, how to tell them apart). Collective wisdom may yield better results than merely you and I. Adam78 (talk) 18:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adam78 Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. Panda10 (talk) 18:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

f= parameter

@Panda10, Adam78: Should I implement support for the f= parameter in this template? Asking this because I wanted to add |f=tanárnő to tanár but it didn't show up. See e.g. how it looks like in Lehrer or învățător. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:33, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fytcha, Panda10 I don't think it's necessary, partly because it's mostly self-evident (the suffix -nő never changes the stem in any way), partly because it may be interchangeable with periphrastic forms (színésznő ~ női színész, professzornő ~ professzor asszony), and partly because the "masculine" base form is not actually masculine but genderless, i.e., inclusive (a female poet/writer may even refuse to be called "költőnő/írónő"; professionals more commonly aim to be acknowledged in the unified field of both men and women). In fact, it might be more useful to add the accusative and the possessive forms after Hungarian nouns (aside from the existing plural forms) but that's a different project. Adam78 (talk) 20:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fytcha, Adam78 I completely agree with Adam. The f= parameter should not be added. A female teacher's profession is teacher, but when students address her, the polite form is "Tanárnő, kérem" (Teacher, please). Panda10 (talk) 21:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)