Template talk:hu-decl

Genitive in Hungarian

Hungarian doesn't have a genitive case, take a look on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrases#Case_endings, the form represented as "genitive" is actually a posessive suffix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrases#-.C3.A9.2F-.C3.A9i_to_replace_possessed_noun, and this form itself can be declined in all the cases: házét (acc.), házénak (dat.), házéval (instr.-comit.) etc. This should be fixed in the template; I've removed the entry, but it doesn't seem to be the solution. Mate Juhasz 15:01, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Design

I want to change the design of this template to look like this, which is rendered like this on my computer. The current one is rendered thus in my Opera, which I very much dislike. The proposed one is opposed by EncycloPetey. The purpose of this discussion is to come to a scheme which will be acceptable to as much users as possible. --Vahagn Petrosyan 00:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I oppose the removal of the color scheme mostly. I'm ambivalent about centering the line headers; I can see advantages and disadvantages to either approach. The colors help me enormously to identify templates / languages / parts of tables. Faint gray does nothing for me visually. --EncycloPetey 00:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind the centering, it probably looks better. About the color: start making small changes in the color in your test template. Try to make the blue lighter but not gray and let us know when we can take a look at it. --Panda10 01:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

How about aqua or blue? --Vahagn Petrosyan 22:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The new colors are much stronger than the current color. Sorry, I prefer the current color. I thought you wanted to go towards the lighter shades. I wanted to ask you: What is the reason you decided to change the color of the Hungarian templates? Are you adding declensions to Hungarian entries? --Panda10 22:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I don’t do Hungarian. But every time I open a page containing Hungarian/Finnish word (and it often does, thanks to you and many active Finnish contributors), the violet template starts yelling at me "LOOK AT ME, I'M PURPLE, I'M PRETTY, I WANT TO BE NOTICED!". And I don't wanna look. That's why, yes, I want to go to a shy unnoticable faint color like grey, because declension templates are not the most important part of the article and they should not attract attention. The grey standard is currently used for Armenian, Russian, Lithuanian, Urdu, Hindi, Albanian, Azeri, Turkish, Czech, Georgian, Khakas, Latvian, Slovene, Slovak, Ukrainian. Also, Ancient Greek uses something like that. Moreover, Polish, Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian, Sanskrit, Old Persian, Old Church Slavonic templates use a similar faint color which puts them ideologically in the same area. Few other languages use the same drab grey, albeit in another table formatting.

As you can see from Category:Declension templates by language only {{Latin-decl}}, {{hu-decl}}, {{fi-decl}} and, perhaps Romanian, Swedish and modern Greek stand out as mavericks. The grey is de-facto our standard. Now, the fact that so many templates use grey means it is acceptable to the majority.

So, again, I suggest we change the color to grey, or at least to this new one. --Vahagn Petrosyan 23:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, then grey. It's fine with me. I hope EncycloPetey won't mind. --Panda10 00:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That's not really a fair list for demonstration, since you or Opiaterein have edited the majority of those templates and seem to prefer the drab, invisible grey. Also, if you open some of those templates (like Ancient Greek), you'll see it's only the header bar that's grey. The entry table isn't always washed out. And I do very much mind the washed-out grey. I prefer the suggested aqua or blue (which look nearly the same to me) over the washed-out grey. --EncycloPetey 13:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I started making templates in grey because I got tired of trying to pick new color schemes for every language I wanted to make templates for. I also got tired of the never-ending clash between and within languages. As much as I like color, it's really not necessary for these templates. (I can think of things where the color of the text changing might be useful, but that's generally for examples and not actual declensions or conjugations as seen in entries.) I would rather have black/white/gray templates consistently through wiktionary than such painfully un-artistic examples as those used for most of the Romance languages. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 16:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

We're getting a bit off topic, but I will respond that the consistent color scheme across the Romance languages serves a very useful purpose. It allows users who examine words across languages to spot equivalent verb forms. The various languages do not present different tenses and forms in the same sequence (for good reasons) in the conjugation templates. Sometimes the participles and gerunds are at the top, sometimes at the bottom, etc., so the consistent color scheme across languages allows a user to quickly spot the section group with the participles, subjunctive, infinitives, or whatever section is being sought. --EncycloPetey 22:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd assume that relatively few casual users will be learning many Romance languages at the same time, and those who are will probably not be so lazy as to give up looking for whatever tense they want just because the colors don't match and make it easy for them. The other group would be people who aren't serious about learning the language, and just looking for a random form of a word. I don't think catering to laze is the best idea. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Please don't be insulting. You're making a lot of assumptions about motivation and utility there, including the idea that the conjugation table templates are just for looking up random information by peiople who aren't serious about the language. You seem to think that this describes the majority of our users. If you really believed all that, then you would favor removing the conjugation tables altogether. you comment does not adress the issue of making Wiktionary look like a morgue by greying everything out; rather, you have obscured the issue with a straw man argument.

In your reasoning, you've also neglected to recognize one very important group of users: those whose native language is one Romance language, who wish to learn another. There isn't another Wiktionary project as well developed as ours for two Romance languages simultaneously, so those people will be coming here (and already do). For them, the visual comparison is a good and useful thing. --EncycloPetey 14:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not actively attempting to be insulting, but if that's how it's coming off, it's entirely up to the reader. As someone who is seriously interested in multiple languages, I prefer a more neutral translingual approach than a color freeforall. Also, my aim on that first point was to say that the majority of our users aren't serious about multiple languages. On the point after that, I'd prefer that wiktionary looked like a morgue than like an under-the-weather rainbow vomited. Not everyone is going to be pleased by all the same colors. I'd rather we work out a way to customize how the tables look than use any color scheme that a few people find useful where other people find it visually insulting.

While non-native English speakers use Wiktionary, this is, of course, the English wiktionary, and like many point out, our main concern should be English natives. We should encourage people to expand their own native language's individual projects, as that would be more useful to someone who speaks Spanish and is trying to learn Portuguese and not English. Out of curiosity, have any of these people specifically mentioned the color scheme being useful to them? — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 16:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

On another note, I'd like to point out that between Romance languages, some of those tenses that the color scheme implies are more-or-less the same, can be and are used in very different ways between languages in some cases. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 16:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a new example, please take a look and let me know if you like it. [1] --Panda10 00:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I do like it. That's a pastel colour, like the ones I was going to propose soon. Besides, Hungaria has always been associated with green to me because it has many plains and so its map was green in my childrens' encyclopedia. --Vahagn Petrosyan 00:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, great! Feels good to have an agreement. I could change the color in the actual template, but was there something else you wanted to correct? Some alignment, if I remember well. Also, for some reason, I've noticed that sometimes when I open the inflection tables, scrollbars appear in both directions. Previously, the table simply just became wider upon opening for longer words, and went back to its normal size after closing. If you know how to correct this, it would be great. Thanks. --Panda10 00:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I made the minor formatting changes I wanted to {{hu-decl-test}}. Are they all right? As for horizontal scroll bars for long words like megkülönböztethetetlenség, they appear because the size of the template was fixed to 40% of the page width. I changed that to 50% which will accomodate more words, but is not a perfect solution of course. Sorry, I don't know how to make the template resize automatically. And even if it were to resize, it's width then would not be equal to the {{hu-pos}} below, which would make the page look bad. --Vahagn Petrosyan 12:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The changes in hu-decl-test look fine to me. --Panda10 14:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Good. Then I go ahead a move that to actual {{hu-decl}}. Will do the same for Finnish templates. --Vahagn Petrosyan 00:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Likewise, they look fine to me. I will note that, at least on my computer, the lines between individual cells are not visible, but they weren't visible before, either. --EncycloPetey 23:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)