User talk:Poketalker/2017-18

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Again, welcome! Wyang (talk) 00:41, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Japanese etymologies

Discussion moved from User talk:104.191.66.91.

I'm afraid that your Japanese etymologies that I've looked at so far have been quite incorrect. For example, see the changes I've made to 交喙 and to 日向.

Please research more before adding or changing any more Japanese etymologies. I am happy to help if you have any questions. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:07, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for inspecting that work; I've been so confused about these edits for some time as some of it made no sense so I brought it up to the Scriptorium. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 11:50, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I think I'll retract that barnstar. Especially after you tried to restore the most implausible of your etymologies, at 恋. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 21:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

• The etymology at 恋 may have been backed by someone's publicly published work, but that work runs against the grain of most patterns I'm aware of in diachronic phonological change processes. None of the PIE descendants show any evidence of an initial /k/, and there is no process I know of for /l/ to turn into /k/. Atarashiya makes very bold claims that are not accepted in mainstream linguistics. The abstract of the paper you linked (PDF) states, “... the results of this study leave no doubt that Dravidian and Japanese belong to the Indo-European family.” There may or may not be anything there, but inasmuch as this is far off the beaten path, we should not be including such fringe theories in our etymologies. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:09, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• See also 月. @Poketalker, your information appears to be either invented, or very poorly sourced. You listed the kun'yomi as /tuki₁/. This is patently wrong. The term appears in the Man'yōshū in poem 3978 (text here) with the man'yōgana spelling 都奇. If you check the Man'yōgana page, you'll find that 奇 was used to represent the sound /ki₂/, not /ki₁/. This, in combination with the presence of older compounds that use 月 with the reading tsuku, point to the tsuku reading as the older form, which changed to tsuki likely through the effect of ancient emphatic nominal particle い (i): tsuku + i → tsukui → *tsukwi → tsuki. See a similar phenomenon in the etymology of 神 (kami), from older combining reading kamu. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:09, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

The edit before yours (the 次, 尽きる) was directly from Gogen Allguide, that was in the past when finding any easy etymological resources online. Will try to be more careful. POKéTalker (talk) 06:55, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

To @Eirikr, Hillcrest98, and others reading: Did not mean to mislead everyone, because my research is mainly online (don't have any physical jiten at the moment) and still a beginner here at Wiktionary, hope everyone understands. Your corrections make it easier to understand; will try to do better. If there were any good online resources (or books in an online archive, like the National Diet Library), you can help me point to the right direction. Domo, POKéTalker (talk) 01:12, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

(@Eirikr: To be fair, they were all tagged with {{rfv-etymology}}. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:46, 17 September 2017 (UTC))

@Poketalker, I appreciate you explaining where you stand and what you're doing. As with many things in life, context is key :) -- and now I understand yours a bit better. Thank you.

FWIW, with very few exceptions that I'm aware of, any research purporting to show that Japanese terms are somehow from Proto-Indo-European is at best fringe work. The one exception that comes to mind right now is the likely source of 蜜 (mitsu, “honey”), traced back through Chinese to Tocharian, a PIE family member. But for things like 恋 (koi, “love”) or 貝 (kai, “clam; shellfish”), any connection to PIE is speculative at best, given the current state of research. Such theories, if interesting enough, could merit inclusion on an entry's Talk page, but they probably don't belong in the entry itself.

In terms of resources, if you can read Japanese, please check sites like Weblio, Kotobank, Gogen Allguide, Nihon Jiten, and any dead-tree resources you might have to hand. I also commonly reference the online version of the Man'yōshū to check for a term's existence in that corpus, and to double-check man'yōgana spellings, as offered up here by the University of Virginia. This gives the text in three forms: ancient man'yōgana, somewhat modernized kanji + kana spellings, and all-kana (in the historical kana orthography). In addition, I might check the Chinese or Korean Wiktionary and Wikipedia sites, as well as John Batchelor's 1905 Ainu-Japanese-English dictionary and grammar.

As a general rule of thumb, if you're not sure about an etymology, omit it -- it's better for Wiktionary to be missing information, than to present readers with incorrect information. For questions about etymology, try posting in the Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium or the Wiktionary:Tea room.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:30, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Sure, will try to post any etymological questions if there is anything hard-to-read during my exploration. Also, @Eirikr, thanks for any corrections, my unintentional misleading was without your help. POKéTalker (talk) 06:55, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Etymology at 札#Etymology_4 (the fuda reading) - a closer examination

I thought I'd post some of the details here to help explain some things.  :)

Previously, you'd added a derivation from PIE, probably based on Atarashiya's work, which argues that Japanese and Dravidian are both PIE languages.

Ultimate derivation probably from Proto-Indo-European root *bheudh- (“to know, inform”) (Can this⁽⁺⁾ etymology be sourced?); cognate with 触(ふ)れる (fureru, “to touch”), 迸(ほとばし)る (hotobashiru, “to surge, gush out”), 解(ほど)く (hodoku, “to solve”), and 施(ほどく)す (hodokusu, “to apply”).

I'll break this down, to show my reasoning.

• At first glance, Proto-Indo-European *bheudh- and 札 (fuda) might appear to at least potentially be related -- the phonology isn't outside the bounds of reason, as we have a bilabial as the initial consonant in both, a vowel in the /u/ neighborhood, and a coronal as the final consonant.

However, this breaks down almost immediately as soon as we realize that the Japanese fuda is not the original form. Once we trace fuda back to its origins as a compound of 文 (fumi, “writing”) + 板 (ita, “board, plank”), any possible connection to PIE is wholly severed: fuda is a compound formation native to Japanese.

Even attempting to relate the underlying etyma, fumi and ita, to PIE *bheudh- falls apart. Ita, “board”, has no apparent phonetic or semantic relationship to *bheudh-. While fumi does have a potential semantic relationship to *bheudh- (albeit somewhat distant), this again fails to demonstrate any PIE - Japanese connection, inasmuch as Japanese 文 (fumi, “writing”) may well be a nativized borrowing traced to Middle Chinese 文 (MC mjun) (possibly a dialectal variant or later development; compare modern Min Nan reading bûn), and thus not originally Japanese to begin with.

• Since fuda is a composed term and not the original form, attempts to link fuda to other Japanese terms with fVd or hVd structures are destined to fail -- ruling out any cognate relationship to 迸る (hotobashiru), 解く (hodoku), or 施す (hodokosu, incidentally, not hodokusu). And considering that the initial fu in fuda comes from 文 (fumi, “writing”), we can also rule out any cognate cognate relationship to 触れる (fureru).
• Lastly, when looking at possible cognates, one must again evaluate whether the candidate terms themselves are compounds or derivatives. When listing cognates, it's best practice to include the root term rather than derivatives. Exploring the history of 迸る (hotobashiru), we find that it is a compound of hoto + hashiru, with hoto probably 程 (hodo, also found as hoto in some ancient sources, “amount”) and hashiru clearly 走る (hashiru, “to run; (of liquid) to flow with force”). Meanwhile, 施す (hodokosu) is derived from 解く (hodoku).

Even outside any discussion of the PIE root *bheudh-, cognate or root relationships to fuda simply fall apart on the basis of fuda's own derivation. I hope that helps explain why I removed the PIE-related etymology section from the entry at 札 (fuda). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

なるほど (​I see), Atarashiya's claims should be set aside for now, unless someone wants to take up the challenge looking deep into the repository about Eurasian comparative linguistics. POKéTalker (talk) 06:55, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Heading levels

I've noticed a trend in your edits with regard to heading levels (how many = symbols to use).

The custom here for entries with multiple etymology sections is to have all POS, pronunciation, "see also", and alternative form headings at level four -- one deeper than the ===Etymology=== header itself. However, if there is only one etymology section, then the POS, etc. headings are all at level three -- the same as for the ===Etymology=== header.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:19, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Understood, thanks for the information (was busy with 候, took a while). POKéTalker (talk) 02:18, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Feedback on additions to 候#Japanese

I had a look at your recent additions to 候#Japanese, and I wanted to provide some feedback.

• It's better organizationally to keep all kun'yomi together, and all on'yomi together. There's been some back-and-forth about whether on'yomi or kun'yomi should come first, and I'm not certain what the consensus is. So long as they're grouped, I'm not sure it matters too much.

• You use /d͡zo/ for ぞ. The Japanese pronunciation module is currently generating [d͡z] as the initial consonant for phonetic descriptions. However, phonemic /d͡zo/ would match づぉ instead of ぞ, which is not a phonemic sound in Japanese. For the ざ・ず・ぜ・ぞ kana, the correct phonemic IPA would be /za/ /zu/ /ze/ /zo/.

• In Etymology 3, you state that this is the imperative form. No imperative form ends in い, aside from highly irregular forms such as なさい and ください. The imperative of 候(そ)う (sō) is 候(そ)え (soe). 候(そ)い (soi) derives from the 候(そ)え (soe) imperative form as a sound shift, but the soi reading is not itself the imperative form.

• In Etymology 3, you list two different readings with different derivations under one etymology. This is confusing and is poorly organized. In general, different readings with different derivations belong under separate etymology headings.

• In general, conjugational endings are spelled separately. As such, the soi reading would be spelled canonically (i.e., in a dictionary) as 候い, soe as 候え, sou as 候う, sourou as 候う, etc.

• Attestations in the Nihon Shoki are useful for determining if a word existed, but dictionaries are quite vague on which spellings were used, in part due to the various editions that have appeared over the centuries. Moreover, Daijirin's entry for うかみ lists three different possible spellings, none of which is specified in the purported quote from the Nihon Shoki. Consequently, the Nihon Shoki attestation for the ukami reading currently listed for Etymology 1 is irrelevant as evidence for the 候 spelling. Given also that I cannot find other sources that list 候 with a reading of うかみ, this should probably be removed.

• I can find no kizasu reading for nanori. ENAMDICT's entry doesn't include this reading, for instance.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:06, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Got them, @Eirikr. Found kizasu on the Nichi-Ei proper noun dictionary (日英固有名詞辞典). Do you suggest separate okurigana-added entries, and what is soi then? POKéTalker (talk) 09:24, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

• Re: soi, if you mean "what part of speech", it would be a suffix. If you mean etymologically, it's not the 命令形 itself, and instead is a sound shift from the 命令形 of sōe.

For that matter, my digging suggests that I was wrong earlier in this thread -- 候え would be the spelling of the 命令形, but the kana rendering would be そうえ, as the correct 命令形 and 已然形 for auxiliary verb 候(そ)う (sō), which appears to have been irregular -- the expected form would ordinarily be そえ without the う, but the dictionaries I've consulted all say some version of:

〔自特活〕（活用形は、未然・連体・終止・連用の四形は「さう」の形、已然・命令形は「さうへ」の形。...）

Consequently, the そえ reading would similarly be derived from the 命令形, and not the 命令形 itself.

Re: kizasu, interesting. I wonder where they got that reading. I cannot yet find any other name dictionary that includes this reading -- searching each of them for 候, none of them list kizasu.

Re: entries with okurigana as the headword, yes, that's generally what's done.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:04, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

"Compounds" versus "Derived terms"

In general, the ====Compounds==== header should only be used as part of the ===Kanji=== section. The original idea appears to have been to provide a list of all kanji compounds using the character.

By contrast, ====Derived terms==== should be used as part of a specific ===Etymology=== section, in order to list any words derived from that specific etymology (i.e. reading), regardless of whether or not the derivations actually use the same kanji spelling. For instance, the entry for 月 includes an ===Etymology=== section for the tsuki reading, and the list of derived terms includes 一(つい)日(たち) (tsuitachi), as this derives from the tsuki reading of 月. As a minor additional point, the location of the {{der-top}} template means we do not add any additional text -- "terms derived from XXX reading" is obvious if the derived terms are under the heading for XXX reading.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

皇#Japanese etymology for sube / sume readings

Hello POKéTalker --

Thank you for expanding the 皇 entry. I'd bumped into the sume reading not long ago over on Wikipedia in reference to the bizarre theory that the Japanese are one of the ten lost tribes of Israel, wherein someone was making the ill-founded argument that the term sumera was evidence that the Japanese emperor was somehow Sumerian. Oh, dear.  :)

Anyway, at that time, I'd run into the following note in Shogakukan's KDJ (emphasis mine):

補注　「すめら」がほとんど天皇に関して用いられるのに対して、これは諸神に関して用いることが多い。後世「すべ」の形をとることもあり、語源は「すぶ（統）」とされていたが、上代特殊仮名遣では「すぶ」の語尾「べ」は乙類、「すめ」の「め」は甲類なので疑問。

Have you found anything to contradict this? (FWIW, I haven't dug into the OJP man'yōgana spellings yet.)

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:27, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

None, it was only a personal speculation (if it was subscript 1 then the shift should be subscript 1 as well). Just reread the jōdai tokushu kanazukai, it appears that the English counterpart article needs expansion, including where to indicate subscripts/accents on the katsuyō conjugations. Will do the necessary edits once done skimming and putting the needed compounds and derived terms from Kotobank. Thanks for noticing! --POKéTalker (talk) 03:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, please have a look at 皇 if you have the time. There are some parts that do not go well, such as the derived terms in suberagi (for example, ima suberagi: found in the Kokinshū, "our reigning Emperor" is a good estimate); but it's the best of my ability. Any suggested changes?

Will work next on 天皇 (tennō, tenkō, suberagi, suberogi, sumeragi, sumera-mikoto), it'll be a challenge for me, but just for a start, separating the etymologies will be my first priority.

Also, have you visited this link? It's a compilation with the man'yōgana spellings found in the three major Old Japanese literature. Also the Himiko-Y site (updates regularly) with the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki texts with ruby (maybe?). You don't have to visit these right now, but a skim is fine. --POKéTalker (talk) 07:54, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Excellent expansion, thank you! I skimmed the 皇#Japanese entry just now and made a couple tweaks -- for sume, I ran a search of the Man'yōshū text for sumera and sumero (to exclude irrelevant cases of verb endings). After weeding out ideographic-only spellings and zeroing in on phonetic man'yōgana, I found clear evidence for ⟨me₂⟩ in poem 4370 (須米良 ⟨sume₂ra⟩), poem 4465 (須賣呂伎能 ⟨sume₂ro₂ki₁ no⟩ and 須賣良弊尓 ⟨sume₂ra he₁ ni⟩), poem 4267 (須賣呂伎能 ⟨sume₂ro₂ki₁ no⟩), among others. The other tweak was a minor formatting issue -- if a term has separate rom, it needs separate kana ruby, as with the alternating -gi and -ki in sumero[gk]i.

Quite interested in the links. I won't have tons of time soon, but I will definitely add those to my bookmarks. Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

After re-reading the KDJ details, I've updated the sume-related etyms -- for one, I realized I'd gone cross-eyed and the me spelled as 賣 is ⟨me₁⟩, not 2. (I hate it when man'yōgana charts only include the shinjitai forms. <sigh.../>) For two, the KDJ states that sume was apparently the older reading. In the sume entry: 「後世「すべ」の形をとることもあり」 "In later years, the term sometimes also took the form sube..." ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

It was sume all along? That was my first guess. Any chance it might be derived from a compound?

How about the unattested nouns sumeragi, suberagi (only name-reading found on former and derived terms from latter)?

When I have time, will rework on 天皇 based on the findings. --POKéTalker (talk) 08:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure about OJP, but at least for early Middle / Classical, I'm finding hits for すべらぎ in things like the 新古今集 from the early Kamakura period. I'm having trouble finding すめらぎ. My resources just point users back to すめろぎ. The ぎ in man'yōgana is spelled as 伎 in the Man'yōshū instances I listed above, which was apparently used ambiguously for either ぎ or き. I do see that the Daijirin entry for すめろぎ includes the following note: 〔「すめらぎ」と同源であろうが，どちらが古いかは未詳〕. The Man'yōshū only has instances of すめろき, none (that I can find) of すめらき or すめらぎ, suggesting either that the a forms are newer, or that the a forms arose from a different dialect than the one(s) recorded in the Man'yōshū. That said, the Man'yōshū does have instances of すめら on its own, while the only hits for すめろ are as part of the longer term すめろき, and I'm not sure what to make of that.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

From my online exploration, the Kojiki in Himiko-Y gives me only jukujikun readings of sumerogi such as 皇祖. Looks like the Man'yōshū is the only one that has a definite phonetic spelling. There is suberagi in the introduction of the Kokin Wakashū, while lots of the wakashū have some use of sumeraki/gi. If you need links, it's a reply away.

@Eirikr, if you like, feel free to check on 天皇 (tennō, sumerogi, suberagi) for any mistakes after my latest edit. --POKéTalker (talk) 08:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, on a side note, thanks for bringing up the "ten lost tribes" theory, because there is something interesting I found in YouTube. Will put this on the Etymology scriptorium to ask for anything to disprove these etymological claims (if no one stood up yet to do this). Domo, ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 12:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

菩薩#Japanese

I agree with a good bit of your cleanup there, but I note that there is an attestable archaic ぼさち reading, which (as far as I can tell) only has the bodhisattva sense. C.f. KDJ if you have it, and WWWJDIC's entry. Especially since there is a divergence in senses, I think there's value in having both readings listed. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, just discovered that kobun has bosachi, but there's no usage example for that; it'll help me if there is an example somewhere. Similar development regarding goon pronunciation shifts are 鬱金 (utikon → ukon, “turmeric”) and 涅槃 (netiban → nehan, “nirvana”). Buddhist terms borrowed from Sanskrit/Pali tend to have irregular Middle Chinese pronunciations (including unreleased stops such as /-t̚/).

It's my suggested recommendation if bosachi would be an alternative reading instead of a separate etymology. ～ POKéTalker (Ŧ◉C) 01:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Re: usex, KDJ lists one from Genji: 源氏‐鈴虫「阿弥陀仏けうしのほさち」 And FWIW, there are two hits at https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ajti.lib.virginia.edu%2Fjapanese%2F+"ぼさち although I confess I haven't understood those texts enough to be sure of the context.

Re: alt reading, that generally works better if an alt reading fits all senses. Given the more restricted meaning of the ぼさち reading, I suspect that may be older; more research would be needed. It's also clear that ぼさち is either rare or archaic now, as I cannot find any pitch accent details for it, and it's not even listed in Daijirin and SMK5. That's my 2p, anyway.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:57, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, Genji gives me:

[...] 阿弥陀仏、脇士の菩薩 [...] (Amida-butsu, kyōji no bosachi/tsu)

It appears that Ueda's Harusame Monogatari has only the Bunka Gonen manuscript with the bosachi term:

「物くはで命やある。よく養ひて、出させたまふをまて。長が酒ゑひのにくき口きゝたる、まことならず。御科の事、又、五百貫の駿馬を買てあがなひたまへりと聞。やがてめでたく門開かせんを」と言に力を得て、経よみうつし、花つみ水むけ、焼くゆらせて、観自在ぼさちをいのる。

観自在菩薩 (Kanjizai Bosatsu, literally “all-perceiving bodhisattva”) is a mistranslation of 観世音菩薩 (Kanzeon Bosatsu, literally “bodhisattva who perceives the world's sounds”) in Xuanzang's Heart Sutra from the Sanskrit, both meaning the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara.

Issa's Ora ga Haru just gave me something like 地蔵菩薩 (Jizō Bosatsu, “Ksitigarbha”):

昔、大和國立田村にむくつけき女ありて、まゝ子の咽を十日程ほしてより、飯を一椀見せびらかしていふやう、是をあの石地藏のたべたらんには、汝にもとらせんとあるに、まゝ子はひだるさたへがたく、石佛の袖にすがりて、しか％＼ねがひけるに、ふしぎやな、石佛大口明て、むし／＼喰ひ給ふに、さすがのまゝ母の角もほつきり折て、それより我うめる子とへだてなく、はごくみけるとなん、其地藏ぼさち今にありて、折々の供物たへざりけり

Either way, the only sense for all three mean "bodhisattva" and nothing else; it can be classified as an archaic spelling... what do you suggest (adding a usage/etymology note, "bosachi still used rarely in Edo period literature")? ～ POKéTalker (Ŧ◉C) 19:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Hypernym at 桜#Japanese

I'm curious about this diff at 桜 where you added a hypernym for 薔薇. I'm confused how "rose" would be a hypernym for "cherry blossom"; they're both flowers, but not really related otherwise, either biologically or semantically. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, just following the definitions from Kotobank: バラ科サクラ属の落葉高木または低木。[...] (Daijirin), and バラ科サクラ属の落葉高木の総称。[...] (Daijisen).

Here's another example: 江戸油鮫 (Edo aburazame), the hypernym is 神楽鮫 (kagurazame), as: カグラザメ目の海魚。[...], and カグラザメ目カグラザメ科の海水魚。[...]. If you have enough time, you can check on 橘 (tachibana) and related 酢橘 (sudachi), they're mikan siblings, perhaps? For me, it wouldn't help much if the -ka or -moku suffix would be needed, and here is the result. Any thoughts? ～ POKéTalker (Ŧ◉C) 01:08, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

OJP vowel realizations

I've been chewing on this issue for a while, and your recent edit at 水 to add in */mʲi/ got me thinking again.

More specifically, the actual phonetic values for the 甲・乙 vowels aren't generally agreed upon. C.f. [[w:Old_Japanese#Vowels]], which shows quite a spread for phonetic values proposed by different authors. Given the lack of general agreement, I am loath to have us choose one over the other(s). Is there perhaps any way of providing multiple variants?

At 水:

• ⟨mi₁⟩ → */mʲi/*/mi/ → /mi/

At 木:

• ⟨ki₂⟩ → */ki/*/kwi/*/kï/*/kïj/ → /ki/

The above should be implementable as a template without too much difficulty; that said, I'm sure the above needs something additional -- perhaps a clear footnote-y indication to the user that there are multiple possible reconstructions, and that they should see [[w:Old_Japanese#Vowels]] for more detail -- but I'm uncertain how best to implement that in a visually clean way.

Your thoughts? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:30, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, would suggest an appendix? Now there is a suggested need for a separate template for term progression. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 21:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

五十#Etymology_3

Curious about your mention of じ as a numeric suffix. The KDJ derives this from the 路 (chi) in 道 (from honorific 御 (mi) + 路 (chi)), originally referring to:

3　日数について、それだけかかる道のりであることを示す。「三日路」など。

Does that match your じ? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:08, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

"By extension of 路, 道 (chi, michi, “road, way”), used to indicate/allude time periods like one part of a road. 三日路 (mikka-ji, “three-day road → something three-days old”), for example."

@Eirikr, this could be a counter for periods of time? This chi is likely what I meant.

By the way, is 路 (-chi) apophonic to 個 (-tsu, counter for almost about anything)? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 21:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think 路 (chi) is apophonic with 箇・個 -- 路 is specific to roads, and it appears as an etymon in ancient compounds with a meaning limited to this sense -- c.f. 道 (michi), 山路 (yamaji), 長路 (nagaji), etc. I think the vaguely-counter-esque sense evolved from the road sense, as you note above.

(Must cut this short, lots going on IRL. :) ) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Readings at 姫#Japanese

Curious about this change. I can't find any evidence for these readings, nor indeed for any non-shinjitai 姫 character. Every source I've looked at describes 姫 as a variant of 姬. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:08, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Pinging @Dine2016 for DKWJ.

@Eirikr, This is the only link so far: Jigen, some kind of Kan-Wa Jiten. It says it's a variant of the old-form hime kanji:

姫シン　[軫]　姬とは別。つつしむ（愼）。

"姫, Shin, variant kanji of 姬; 慎む (tsutsushimu, “to be careful”)"

Pronunciation is likely from derivation of 臣. Meanwhile...

姬

キ　[支]

○　ひめ、皇后、王妃。
○　女子の美稱。
○　めかけ（妾）史、孟嘗君傳「使人抵昭王幸─求解」
○　姓、黃帝─水に居り、─を以て氏と爲す、周人其の姓を嗣ぐ。
○ （國）ひめ、貴人のむすめ。
○ （國）貴女の名に添へて呼ぶ敬稱「橘─」

○ （國）小にして愛すべき物の名に冠していふ「─小松」

"1. a princess, empress, queen (possibly any high-ranking female title); 2. term indicating praise to a young woman?; 3. a concubine during tenure of Lord Mengchang; 4. (Kokugo) a princess, daughter of an aristocrat; 5. (Kokugo) a title of respect to a female nobleman; 6. (Kokugo) the hime- (small) prefix"

What do you think? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I don't have access to the 大漢和辞典 now; according to the 3-volume abridged 広漢和辞典:

• the shinjitai form 姫 corresponds to two traditional characters: 姬 and 姫
• 姬 has three readings: キ (支平声，〔廣韻〕居之切), イ (支平声，〔廣韻〕與之切), キョ (〔列子注〕音居), with the definitions (citations omitted):
  • キ：①もと。基本。②あと。足跡。③助辞。疑問の意を表す。⇒居。④そばめ。妾。⑤姓。㋐…　㋑…　
  • イ：①ひめ。天子のむすめ。転じて、婦人の美称。②きさき。皇后。③そばめ。めかけ。＝妃·□。④漢代の女官の一。
  • キョ：いる（ゐる）。おる（をり）。⇒居。
  • ［国］ひめ。①貴人のむすめ。②身分の高い女の名に添えて呼ぶ敬称。③小さく愛らしい物の名に冠していう。「姫百合（ひめゆり）」④遊女。娼妓（しょうぎ）。
• traditional 姫 has one reading: シン (軫上声，〔集韻〕止忍切), with the definition つつしむ。 and the citation 〔集韻〕姫，愼也。

--Dine2016 (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Etym at 姫#Japanese

Regarding this change, the spelling of a term has no bearing on its compound-ness for etymological purposes. For instance, 志す (kokorozasu) is a compound of 心 (kokoro) + 指す (sasu), despite the spelling only using the one kanji. So too for 姫 (hime), 彦 (hiko), 瞬 (mabataki), etc. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:12, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, got it. Note that I'm not yet familiarized with the {{compound}} template and would prefer adding a category before the references (as in [[Category:Japanese compound words]]) if there's no other way. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:49, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

kanji as shakuon

Putting this sort of information under the Etymology header seems strange to me. What if a kanji is not used by itself, and there is no Etymology header? What about adding it as a "kanji definition"? —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 05:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, as in this?

(kanji)

1. ...
2. 借音 (shakuon) kana for ⟨-a/-i_1,2/-u/-e_1,2/-o_1,2⟩

This might seem plausible. Compared to 埿 where it's placed in the Usage notes section after Readings (no on-reading etymology section), and 嗚呼 where the shakkun note is placed in Usage notes under the Etymology section.

Would be a good opportunity to suggest an appendix regarding shakkun and shakuon kana for Old Japanese? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 09:02, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I guess there isn't a Kanji section on 嗚呼 though.

I think an Appendix could be useful too. Content duplication would be silly though. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 00:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Edit at 世界

Why hide an idiom? I'm curious about your reason for that. The edit summary didn't quite explain. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, the hiding was only temporary until 世界中 (sekaijū) is created. The hidden idiom has been moved to the proper term. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 19:51, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Buddhist senses at 道場#Japanese

I'm curious about your addition regarding 菩提道場. This term does exist in Japanese, but it appears to be a later compound. 道場 on its own already refers to religiously important places, starting historically with Daoism (hence the 道) and expanding to include Buddhism as that religion reached China. KDJ doesn't even include an entry for 菩提道場, nor any note including that collocation at either the 菩提 or 道場 entries, leading me to think that this term isn't very common, nor important to the etymology of 道場. Considering also that the 道場 entries in both the KDJ and DJR include definitions regarding places of Buddhist practice, I'm inclined to think that these senses are independent of 菩提道場, and not based on any shortenings thereof.

Do you have any sources that give the Buddhist definitions of 道場 as shortenings of 菩提道場? Curious, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:04, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr, Digital Daijisen is the only one. If my edit(s) don't make sense to you, it's only my learning journey (prone to some mistakes). By the way, there should be a template for the Digital Daijisen (not just the Daijisen reference, the same with the Brittanica, Nipponica, Sekai Dai Hyakka) reference. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 21:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

一切

At this page 一切, there is a Lua error in the "Derived terms" section under Japanese that I think was introduced in this edit. Can you please have a look? —Internoob 22:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

@Internoob, it appears that @Erutuon already fix it. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 04:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)