Category talk:Korean chengyu
Add topic
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Specific Proposals:
- Move Category:Korean chengyu to either:
- Similarly move the subcategories of Category:Chengyu by language to their language-appropriate or English-glossed titles
Rationale: Currently all subcategories of Category:Chengyu by language use the word "chengyu" even though this is a strictly Chinese term for these idioms that have been absorbed into various Asian languages from Classical Chinese. However, many of these languages have a completely different term to refer to these idioms. For example, in Korean the word for this category of idioms is typically 사자성어 (四字成語, sajaseong'eo, “four-character idiom”). Thus, someone looking for the Korean four-character idioms is not going to search for the Chinese term, which makes the category unfindable. I presume the same for other affected languages.
1a: For Korean specifically, my preference is to move Category:Korean chengyu to Category:Korean four-character idioms (gloss of 사자성어 (四字成語, sajaseong'eo)), in line with the standard Korean term and also most common way to speak about these Korean phrases in English and thus the most findable variant. I acknowledge, however, that this is not perfectly precise, since it does not reference the shared etymology and because there is a small number of such phrases that are not actually four characters.
1b: Less preferred but not unpalatable is the option to move Category:Korean chengyu to Category:Korean hanja idioms (gloss of 한자성어 (漢字成語, hanjaseong'eo), where hanja refers to sinographs in Korean). This acknowledges the Sino etymology and accommodates the non-four-character members; it is also what the Korean Wiktionary uses. However, this is less standard—사자성어 (四字成語, sajaseong'eo, “four-character idiom”) appears in the Standard Korean Dictionary, whereas 한자성어 (漢字成語, hanjaseong'eo, “hanja idiom”) does not.
1c: A third option that I do not propose but do acknowledge is using the transliteration of Category:Korean sajaseong'eo or Category:Korean hanjaseong'eo. This would be inconsistent with other subcategories in Category:Korean language that are specifically in English, not transliterated Korean.
2: For other languages, I am much less qualified to propose specific new categories. There is a list of translations on the page for chengyu, but I find that the Korean offerings are not consistent with standard usage, so I would want other languages verified before adopting them.
Koanium (talk) 17:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Support moving of all of the chengyu categories, including Chinese, to Category:LANG four-character idioms. – wpi (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Wpi @Koanium Support renaming to 'four-character idioms'. Benwing2 (talk) 05:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm just seeing this now, and I think there might be some idioms that are considered 成語 but not four characters. I wonder if those would just have to be not considered chengyu then. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 13:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Wpi @Koanium
- 一丈差九尺 (yīzhàngchājiǔchǐ)
- 一去不復返／一去不复返 (yīqùbùfùfǎn)
- 一日不見，如隔三秋／一日不见，如隔三秋 (yīrìbùjiàn, rúgésānqiū)
- 一蟹不如一蟹 (yī xiè bùrú yī xiè)
- 一言以蔽之 (yīyán yǐ bì zhī)
- 一言既出，駟馬難追／一言既出，驷马难追 (yīyánjìchū, sìmǎnánzhuī)
- 上不著天，下不著地 (shàngbùzháotiān, xiàbùzháodì)
- 上天無路，入地無門／上天无路，入地无门 (shàngtiānwúlù, rùdìwúmén)
- 上氣不接下氣／上气不接下气 (shàngqì bù jiē xiàqì)
- 不求有功，但求無過／不求有功，但求无过 (bùqiú yǒugōng, dànqiú wúguò)
- 事後諸葛亮／事后诸葛亮 (shìhòu Zhūgě Liàng)
- 二者必居其一 (èrzhě bì jū qí yī)
- 五十步笑百步 (wǔshí bù xiào bǎi bù)
- 井水不犯河水 (jǐngshuǐ bùfàn héshuǐ)
- 人為刀俎，我為魚肉／人为刀俎，我为鱼肉 (rén wéi dāozǔ, wǒ wéi yúròu)
- 仁者見仁，智者見智／仁者见仁，智者见智 (rénzhě jiàn rén, zhìzhě jiàn zhì)
- 八仙過海，各顯神通／八仙过海，各显神通 (bāxiānguòhǎi, gèxiǎnshéntōng)
- 公親變事主／公亲变事主 (gōngqīn biàn shìzhǔ)
- 勿謂言之不預／勿谓言之不预 (wù wèi yán zhī bù yù)
- 半……不…… (bàn bù)
- 取之不盡，用之不竭／取之不尽，用之不竭 (qǔ zhī bù jìn, yòng zhī bù jié)
- 可望而不可即 (kě wàng ér bùkě jí)
- 只此一家，別無分店／只此一家，别无分店 (zhǐ cǐ yī jiā, bié wú fēndiàn)
- 司馬昭之心／司马昭之心 (Sīmǎ Zhāo zhī xīn)
- 吃一塹，長一智／吃一堑，长一智 (chī yī qiàn, zhǎng yī zhì)
- 吃喝拉撒睡 (chī-hē-lā-sā-shuì)
- 大意失荊州／大意失荆州 (dàyì shī Jīngzhōu)
- 大旱之望雲霓／大旱之望云霓 (dàhàn zhī wàng yúnní)
- 大旱望雲霓／大旱望云霓 (dàhàn wàng yúnní)
- 女大不中留 (nǚ dà bù zhōng liú)
- 學而優則仕／学而优则仕 (xué ér yōu zé shì)
- 安心立命 (ānxīnlìmìng)
- 安心立命する
- 小米加步槍／小米加步枪 (xiǎomǐ jiā bùqiāng)
- 少年易老學難成／少年易老学难成 (shàonián yì lǎo xué nán chéng)
- 心有餘而力不足／心有余而力不足 (xīn yǒuyú ér lì bùzú)
- 愛……不……／爱……不…… (ài bù)
- 惺惺惜惺惺 (xīngxīngxīxīngxīng)
- 挾泰山以超北海／挟泰山以超北海 (xié tàishān yǐ chāo běihǎi)
- 攑頭三尺有神明／𫽥头三尺有神明
- 放之四海而皆準／放之四海而皆准 (fàng zhī sìhǎi ér jiē zhǔn)
- 放長線釣大魚／放长线钓大鱼 (fàng chángxiàn diào dàyú)
- 早知拉尿，企到天光
- 是可忍，孰不可忍 (shì kě rěn, shú bù kě rěn)
- 星星之火，可以燎原 (xīngxīng zhī huǒ, kěyǐ liáoyuán)
- 曾經滄海難為水／曾经沧海难为水 (céng jīng cānghǎi nán wéi shuǐ)
- 有過之無不及／有过之无不及 (yǒu guò zhī wú bù jí)
- 歪喙雞食好米／歪喙鸡食好米
- 河水不犯井水 (héshuǐ bùfàn jǐngshuǐ)
- 活得不耐煩／活得不耐烦 (huó de bùnàifán)
- 為淵驅魚，為叢驅雀／为渊驱鱼，为丛驱雀 (wèiyuānqūyú, wèicóngqūquè)
- 無何有之鄉／无何有之乡 (wúhéyǒuzhīxiāng)
- 無所措手足／无所措手足 (wú suǒ cuò shǒu zú)
- 畢其功於一役／毕其功于一役 (bì qí gōng yú yī yì)
- 痟狗舂墓壙／痟狗舂墓圹
- 盡人事，聽天命／尽人事，听天命 (jìn rénshì, tīng tiānmìng)
- 知己知彼，百戰不殆／知己知彼，百战不殆 (zhījǐzhībǐ, bǎizhànbùdài)
- 禮多人不怪／礼多人不怪 (lǐ duō rén bù guài)
- 空口說白話／空口说白话 (kōngkǒu shuō báihuà)
- 耕者有其田 (gēngzhěyǒuqítián)
- 聽見風就是雨／听见风就是雨 (tīngjiànfēngjiùshìyǔ)
- 肩不能挑，手不能提 (jiān bùnéng tiāo, shǒu bùnéng tí)
- 言者無罪，聞者足戒／言者无罪，闻者足戒 (yánzhě wú zuì, wénzhě zú jiè)
- 酸甜苦辣鹹／酸甜苦辣咸 (suāntiánkǔlàxián)
- 長期共存，互相監督／长期共存，互相监督 (chángqī gòngcún, hùxiāng jiāndū)
- 雞屎落塗，也有三寸煙／鸡屎落涂，也有三寸烟
- 鬱鬱不得志／郁郁不得志 (yùyùbùdézhì)
- —Fish bowl (talk) 21:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Personally I think "four-character idioms" need only be prototypically four-character in length; compare English blackboard, which isn't always black. Benwing2 (talk) 09:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- —Fish bowl (talk) 21:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- WingerBot (Benwing2) moved cat:Chengyu by language and its subcategories to cat:Four-character idioms by language and cat:<Language> four-character idioms on 2023-11-01. — excarnateSojourner (ta·co) 19:37, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
@Theknightwho Were you aware of this discussion when you unmoved e.g. Category:Cantonese four-character idioms back to Category:Cantonese chengyu? Was there another discussion I haven't seen? — excarnateSojourner (ta·co) 17:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @ExcarnateSojourner There were a few discussions on Discord about the "Han characters" and "four-character idioms" categories, since the consensus for unifying their names had never been very strong in the first place (e.g. see the discussions at Category talk:Chinese hanzi, where CodeCat/Rua tried to force the move on everyone else, and it was only later moved due to duplication/technical considerations). The primary motivation for moving them in the first place was to incorporate them into the category tree, which meant there had to be standardised, language-neutral names for them, so that they could all be grouped under Category:Han characters by language or Category:Four-character idioms by language.
- However, I recently modified the category tree to allow aliases on a per-language or per-family basis, which meant the original justification no longer applies, so it's now possible to have Category:Chinese hanzi, Category:Japanese kanji, Category:Korean hanja, Category:Chinese chengyu, Category:Japanese yojijukugo etc. Note that they still get categorised under the correct "by language" category, despite the names being different.
- I didn't move Category:Korean four-character idioms, though, because I saw from the discussion above that the consensus was pretty strong for that name specifically, irrespective of any technical concerns. Theknightwho (talk) 18:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)