Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/February

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← January 2023 · February 2023 · March 2023 → · (current)

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sapeur

Is "by surface analysis from saper + -eur" correct? Perhaps i don't understand what surface analysis is, but in any case TLFi says "Dér. de saper2*; suff. -eur2*". --Espoo (talk) 09:29, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

If you click "surface analysis", it should take you to a glossary explanation of what it is. Perhaps the glossary explanation is insufficient? Vininn126 (talk) 09:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It wasn’t linked to the glossary. ( Now it is.)  --Lambiam 12:25, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't been linked for HOW long? Also I really think we should make the switch to another wording soon. Vininn126 (talk) 12:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It always links if you use {{surf}}. I can't think of a less ambiguous wording. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:01, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of Australian slang definition of "billy"

I'm pretty sure that the origin of this is akin to rhyming slang, billabong being shortened to billy which then refers to a bong. Absolutely no idea how I could verify this or find something to cite though. 149.248.103.115 00:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

It's barely rhyming slang, but it does initially sound likely... Although the term for a pot is older, so the similarity in form and function is also a probable derivation. It could also be a combination of the two hypotheses, I guess. Wakuran (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of laveren

I have just added Dutch laveren, a very important word that was still lacking, and also gave it a shortened etymology. It is traditionally considered a borrowing from Old French *lover, first attested in late Middle French and the recent EW follows this line. The more recent EWN (see the same link) on the other hand turns this on its head and states that it was formed in Middle Dutch on account of the dates of attestation. Does anybody object if I follow the EWN on this (with inclusion of a reference)? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Tou could possibly hedge your bets, by including both etymologies. The root seem to be North Sea Germanic, though. The Swedish words lovera amd lovart are believed to be borrowings from Middle Dutch. Wakuran (talk) 14:34, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that could do. For now, I will add a mention of loef, for that is uncontroversial in the recent sources. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

The entry in etymologiebank.nl linked to above states that it is very unlikely that the term was borrowed from French, which, I presume, includes Old French. Which source considers this a borrowing from Old French?  --Lambiam 16:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Only the top entry states that. For the rest, P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Etymologisch woordenboek is representative:

laveren [telkens aan de wind overstag gaan] {loveren [tegen de wind opzeilen] ca. 1384, laveren [heen en weer zwaaien bij het lopen] 1437} < oudfrans loveer [idem], van nederlands loef.

However, it seems that all recent dictionaries consider it to derive from (presumably Middle) Dutch loef, so that could be added without controversy. I suppose that I prefer the EWN's etymology because of the dates. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wet

RFV of the etymology. I realise this comes ultimately from *éǵh₂, but where specifically does the -t come from ? Is its development related in any way to *jut ? Leasnam (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Initially, it seems likely. Cf. [1] and [2]. Looking up [3], it seems that the Proto-Germanic dual paradigm was reanalyzed, rather than directly inherited from PIE. Wakuran (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

玄 as the original character of 弦?

I noticed that 玄's ancient forms look very similar to the ancient forms of 糸 ("silk"). Since 弦 ("string") and 糸 have similar meanings, I was wondering if 玄 and 糸 were originally the same character, then split early on because of pronunciation, and then 玄 had a meaning shift and 弦 was created to represent the original meaning? If that makes any sense. (It sounds a bit far-fetched, but I couldn't think of any other reason why 玄 would have 幺 in it.) Signbear999 (talk) 01:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, 玄 is the differentiated form of 幺 instead of 糸. Also, the right element of 弦 originally was not 玄 (but was changed to 玄 after the Han dynasty because of the visual and phonological similarity), because 弦 originally depicts a bow with an accent circle on its string. All of this info is well known in the Chinese paleography, you can use 李守奎・肖攀《清華簡〈繫年〉文字考釋與構形研究》(2015) (chapter named 幺、玄、糸、𢆶、絲等相關字考) as the reference for those two glyphs. Panates (talk) 5:03, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Reichenowella

The Reichenowella protist is the type genus of the Reichenowellidae family. But Kahl who described the genus here does not give its etymology. Was it named for a person named Reiche, for example Karl Friedrich Reiche? and what does nowellid mean? Thank you for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 06:41, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: I bet it's named for Eduard Reichenow + -ella. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh thank you so much @Mahagaja since I didn't know this protozoologist. Now that you've given me that information, I found that name (but only once) on page 546 of Kahl's publication. Gerardgiraud (talk) 10:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gerardgiraud: I just searched Wikipedia for "Reichenow" as it seemed the most likely name. First I found his father, Anton Reichenow, and wondered why a protist would be named for an ornithologist, but then the article mentioned that his son was a protozoologist, and that struck me as much more likely. And now I see that Eduard's Wikipedia article even explicitly says, "In 1932 Alfred Kahl named the protozoan genus Reichenowella (family Reichenowellidae) in his honor." —Mahāgaja · talk 11:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed when you gave me the name I found the Wikipedia page and this reference to Kahl. But, being a purist, wikipedia should not serve as a source for another WP article. But there, the probability is too strong that it is Eduard Reichenow the person concerned, to be able to be false. Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

It's confirmed here. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiktionary entry for "Ven", Danish entomology

In the Wiktionary entry for "Ven" the Danish entomology shows the Proto-Norse rune spelling ending in the Z rune, though the romanized word that follows it in parentheses, has an R at the end. Zalbicolis (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. We have the conflicting spellings on the ᚹᛁᚾᛁᛉ page as well. I know there was a sound change from /z/ to /R/, where that R represents a different sound than the regular lowercase /r/. Its possible that the scribes of the day never changed the spelling, and continued to think of the changed sound as a continuation of the original, but that wouldnt explain why we have a mismatch between spelling and pronunciation. That said, it's being generated by a template, so it's not a typo, and is probably on purpose. —Soap— 19:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

First of all, the entry in question is at ven, not Ven. Secondly, the header is "Etymology" not Entomology. Don't worry: I've seen this error so many times that it doesn't bug me any more... Chuck Entz (talk) 04:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I see what you did there. Although my antennae were up...Wakuran (talk) 21:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

See, over at Wikipedia, note 4 in the section Proto-Norse language § Consonants: “The exact realisation of the phoneme /z/, traditionally written as ʀ in transcriptions of runic Norse (not to be confused with the phonetic symbol /ʀ/), is unclear. While it was a simple alveolar sibilant in Proto-Germanic (as in Gothic), it eventually underwent rhotacization and merged with /r/ towards the end of the runic period. It may have been pronounced as [ʒ] or [ʐ], tending towards a trill in the later period. The sound was still written with its own letter in runic Old East Norse around the end of the first millennium.”  --Lambiam 23:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

uk: піл / ru: полати (sleeping shelf in peasant cottage)

Does this have anything to do with Caló piltra "bed", where does it come from? 67kevlar (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I have a hard time believing Caló would have had any impact on the East Slavic languages. I guess it's possible Caló might have picked it from Slavic on it's way from the East, or it's a shared Proto-Indo-European root, though... Wakuran (talk) 02:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Етимологічний словник української мови. 4(2003), page 404, it is ultimately a Proto-Slavic word, polъ, which denotes a floor. Then it must had gone through semantic shift floor>flat lying place> bed. By the way, this dictionary did mention related terms like Latin spolium and more. Chihunglu83 3:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Any relation to Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/pleh₂-? Wakuran (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

For Romani originally from India, a word like पलंग (palaṅg /⁠palaṅg⁠/) is likely. Mayrhofer thinks the Sanskrit etymon paryaṅka is folk etymologic interpretation of a culture loanword, perhaps Dravidian [4]. 62.155.150.198 19:48, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

This is in connection to the Caló word, you mean? Wakuran (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

for fuck's sake

Today, I read someone theorising that for fuck's sake was coined as a minced oath of for Christ's sake. I have no idea how much truth there is in this, but it does feel plausible given the nonsensical literal meaning. Plus, modern swear words weren’t considered so offensive back when (religious) minced oaths were still being formed in English. Theknightwho (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I've always assumed it was a minced oath but I've never been sure whether it's based on for Christ's sake or for God's sake (or both). It can work the other way around though, I've often heard people say "Fuck...Christ's sake" instead of simply "For Christ's sake" and even said it like that myself on occasion. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The OED states the substitution as a fact ("for fuck's sake" is listed under the heading "Used in certain phrases as a stronger or more emphatic alternative to God, heaven, Christ"). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@Al-Muqanna I'm in two minds as to whether it's a minced oath, and it probably depends on when it was first attested. Nowadays, it certainly is stronger/more emphatic, but did that apply when it was first used? Modern swear words only have the power that they do nowadays because blasphemy is no longer considered taboo. Compare Gropecunt Lane etc. Theknightwho (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The OED's citations for FFS only go back to the 1940s, which is already further back than I can manage. Hard to say when it actually emerged given that people tended not to write that kind of thing out, but I think it's probably not specifically a minced oath given that it's pretty easy to find "God's", "Christ's" in old books (example from 1865, from 1768, from 1599 (!)) and certainly not easy to find "fuck's". (More likely it's the other way round, I think: "fuck" was substituted when the religious options had lost a lot of their intensity.) —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 22:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

There are similar religious oaths in a lot of languages, so the religious concept is likely very old. But yeah, I'd agree it would rather be an "immensed oath" than a minced oath... Wakuran (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

kanon (Danish)

RFV of the etymology.

Borrowed from Old French canon, from Italian cannone.

Old French canon from Italian cannone might work, depending how you define Italian, but when did modern Danish have contact with Old French? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Den Danske Ordbog just states Italian cannone. Wakuran (talk) 12:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Rigorously it would have to have been borrowed into Old Danish (before 16th c.) to overlap with Old French, not Danish directly. @Embryomystic added the etymology and is still around sometimes so they might be able to explain the reasoning. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Is there a Danish dictionary or corpus that will show when the word was first used? I suspect that the immediate source of the borrowing was German, either High or Low depending on how old the word is in Danish. But of course with these international words that are basically the same in most European languages, it can be nearly impossible to say who borrowed it from whom, and it might be safest to just say "from Latin" using {{der}} and not attempt any immediate source. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

SAOB ([5]) states 1631, so presumably Danish is also around that time, possibly somewhat earlier as it's closer to the continent. Wakuran (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

sneed

RFV of the etymology (Etymology 1).

Yes, there's a gag from the Simpsons about "Sneed's Feed & Seed (Formerly Chuck's)", and there's apparently a verb meaning "to seethe". I just don't see anything that connects the two. On top of that, there was a particularly annoying IP who kept trying to slip lame variations on the gag into the entry as a definition. I'd rather not encourage people like that without a solid indication that the gag is, in fact, the origin. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I could come up with a bunch of etymologies that feel more likely, such as snide, Dr. Seuss Sneetches (who might be antagonistic rather than angry) and sneed (sweater from the Lorax book, and apparently a software for Toys'R'Us), Robert Crumb character Snoid (a small, angry and bitter character), and Swedish slang sned (originally slanted, askew, but today also angry, irritated). A dsgruntled Toys'R'Us employee feels just as likely as an etymology as a random Simpsons meme. Granted, none of these have a semantic and phonetic match that feels particularly obvious, though. Wakuran (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The etymology at the entry is accurate AFAIK: the meme involved using "sneed" in random contexts to the point of semantic bleaching, and it was substituted for "seethe" purely because of phonetic similarity. I have no idea how that could be reliably reconstructed, though, albeit there are relevant observations in a few places (Reuters: "The term “sneed” relates to a play on words of a store front name that features in an episode of The Simpsons […] The joke has become synonymous with online trolling and became popular on far-right image boards such as 4chan"; less reliably TVTropes: "[the Simpsons meme] eventually evolved and branched into different memes of its own until its popularity rivaled that of Baneposting. It came to a point where simply writing "Sneed" and/or "Chuck" constitutes a meme of its own (called 'Sneedposting')"). Judging from Google the earliest use of "sneed" for "seethe" appears to be in late 2020, which fits the timeline. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 10:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

You might want to reference the actual etymology of the word which is a proper name. The Simpsons did not invent the name, as the article implies by not back-linking to the original definition : Sneed#Etymology Not only can the word be easily attested by those alive in the 90’s, it’s a very old word. When did wiki become UD?? -- yclept:Berr (Edit: corrected the article accordingly to note the origin in proper name.) — This unsigned comment was added by 66.44.14.23 (talk).

The etymology of the name itself is (virtually) irrelevant to the etymology of the slang term, and is covered at the capitalised entry where you'd expect. At most we could add "See Sneed for the etymology of the surname" or the like. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ňuxati

Requesting sources for the etymology (currently it says "From *ňuxъ +‎ *-ati") as the Vasmer's dictionary entry listed as the only reference says nothing about it, instead discussing (among other things) the connection to Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/niuhsijaną. By the way, both references listed on that page support the connection to Proto-Slavic *ňuxati. 217.197.197.68 16:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

You didn't mean Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hneusaną? Wakuran (talk) 15:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The Vasmer dictionary only gives the niuhs- word from what I can see. —Soap— 09:54, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, ESSJa claims *ňuxъ is derived from *ňuxati, while the *ňuxati page claims (at present) that it's the other way round.

Trubachyov, Oleg, editor (1999), “*n'uxъ? *n'ǫxъ?”, in Этимологический словарь славянских языков (in Russian), numbers 25 (*neroditi – *novotьnъ(jь)), Moscow: Nauka, →ISBN, page 159

217.197.197.68 17:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

A week passed and no sources were given, so I edited the article. It still needs work, but IMO it's better now. 217.197.197.68 19:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposed etymology for the Urdu/Hindi "garmee"

Possibly inherited from Sanskrit घर्म (gharma), cognate with Greek θερμός "heat, warmth" (< PIE *g^wher-mo) with the thematic qualitative adjective derivational suffix -mó- added to the base g^wher-. The Wiktionary entry for θερμός contains the expanded list of cognates (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/θερμός). 38.15.208.251 09:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Which word are you referring to? Do you have a link? Wakuran (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I think گرمی / गर्मी (garmī). This terms coexists with the synonym گھرم / घर्म (gharm). Note the difference between ⟨g⟩ and ⟨gh⟩; gharmī would be घर्मी (gharmī), which appears to exist and is translated by Google as summer but has no entry on Wiktionary.  --Lambiam 11:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, it's derived from Persian rather than Sanskrit. Persian has گرم (garm), though, so it still seems to be plausibly derived from the PIE root. Wakuran (talk) 12:48, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

This word is Persian in origin. The aspiration of Persian origin words is known to occur both as a natural adaptation to Hindustani phonology, but also as an intentional attempt to try and re-write the history of the language by purists who identify with the Hindi flavour of it. "thana" (police station) would be an example of a Persian origin word which was already naturally aspirated that has been reclaimed as Sanskrit by popular etymology. The inherited Hindi/Urdu word from Sanskrit gharma is ghām گھام घाम. Vowels where lengthened and consonant clusters simplified wherever possible in the native lexicon. -عُثمان (talk) 03:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

叮

RFV of the etymology of “to disqualify”. I think it could also be from English ding (“to fire or reject”), don't see why it has to an onomatopoeia. @Mahogany115 – Wpi31 (talk) 10:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

There was a TV programme called 殘酷一叮. Mahogany115 (talk) 10:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

deforestation, deforest

According to the entry for deforestation, the term is borrowed directly from French déforestation, which would make deforest a back-formation. However, the latter page lists deforestation as a derived term, and claims that the word is just a compound of de- + forest. Which one's correct? Binarystep (talk) 13:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

deforest is according to the OED, which says deforest is an internal formation within English and deforestation a derived term. etymonline says the same. Neither say anything about a French borrowing. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The earliest use of French déforestation is given as 1874.^[6] In English, the term appeared in print in 1871,^[7] while the verb is attested as early as 1849.^[8] So the French may have been borrowed the term from English; it is not derived from a verb *déforester.  --Lambiam 10:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

glom

RFV of the etymology. I'm satisfied that sense 1 of this word comes from the Scots word glaum but not really for senses 2 or 3. Etymology 3 verb 1 sense 1 of glom was recently deleted due to it being essentially a duplicate of Etymology 1 sense 3, and rightly so, but it did suggest that conglomeration was the correct etymology for the 'combine together' sense. Surely this is also the correct derivation for the 'attach' sense at Etymology 1 sense 3? --Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I think the "attach" sense can be better worded. I've modified it. Leasnam (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

As far as the "stare" sense is concerned, I think this is intended to mean "glaum/glawm" "to stare, loo at; look sad" which is a separate etymology possibly related to gloom (“to look sullen, scowl, frown; stare (at)”). It is used in Scotland and Northern England (Yorkshire), but I cannot find it using this spelling. Leasnam (talk) 02:12, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I've moved the sense to Etymology 2, and it points as an Alt form to glaum (etym 2). I've added a RFV to the spelling glom. Leasnam (talk) 02:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

It looks better now as it does make more sense that the meaning could have shifted from 'steal' to 'grab hold of' to 'latch onto' rather than going directly from 'steal' to 'latch onto' (or 'attach') and the 'stare' sense seems different but I do still wonder whether we can rule out the 'latch onto' sense coming from a word like 'agglomerate' or 'conglomerate'. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hrrmmm, agglomerate is not a common word used colloquially, as glom is, and the meaning is not really the same - ball up vs. latch onto ...hrm, not really visualising this easily... Leasnam (talk) 03:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say this is  Done (?) Leasnam (talk) 05:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

kyrgyz

The ethnonym “Kyrgyz” in literal translation means “forty-tribe people” (from the Turkic “kyrk” forty and “-yz” an ancient plural suffix or “kyrk + gyz” forty Oghuz). [9]

Word "Oguz" in the meaning of "tribe" and "unification of tribes". [10]

Perhaps the most ancient etymology of the ethnonym Kyrgyz is written in the book Majmu at-Tavarikh.

Majmu at-Tawarikh (arab. مجموع التواريخ - “Collection of stories”) is a work in Persian written in the 16th century in Fergana by Mullah Saif ad-Din Aksikendi. [11]

It says that Kyrgyz is Kyrk Oguz. It translates as forty tribes. 17 page. 1 paragraph. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The national flag of the Kyrgyz Republic is a red rectangular panel, in the center of which there is an image of a round solar disk with evenly divergent rays of golden color (forty rays). Inside the solar disk there is an image of a tyundyuk (Kyrgyz tunduk) of a red Kyrgyz yurt. The sun in the ornamental culture of the Kyrgyz people means light, openness, vitality. Forty rays like tongues of flame are forty tribes reunited into a people. [12]

The entire history of the Kyrgyz is written in Russian. Unfortunately, there is practically nothing in English, so almost all sources are in Russian. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Wikislowpoke106 wants us to delete the “forty girls” theory. Any input from more versed users? --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@Wikislowpoke106: The entry was good as it was. Your version was less with worse formatting. I don’t see anything convincing in your motion. Fay Freak (talk) 23:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

On another note, “forty” in Middle Eastern relations is presumably not a factual number, compare Ottoman Turkish قرق (kırk, “forty; many”), but I don’t know how to represent this detail, which few Westerners know, across Wiktionary. See the references at Arabic جِلَّوْز (jillawz). Fay Freak (talk) 23:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, kyrk - in other meanings it means a lot.

With all due respect, but in order to thoroughly understand the etymology of the ethnonym Kyrgyz, it is not enough to be a linguist. In addition to knowledge of the Kyrgyz language, one must have a good knowledge of the history of the Kyrgyz and the history of the Turkic world. Ethnology of the Kyrgyz. CIS historians have been doing this for several centuries. We know our history well. 99% of CIS historians adhere to the version of 40 tribes.

The ethnonym Kyrgyz - meets all the requirements of the Turkic ethnonyms of that time. Like Uch Oguz Karluks, Toguz Oguz Uighurs, Otuz Oguz, Segiz Oguz and so on.

The Kyrgyz identify themselves as a people of 40 tribes. 40 tribes is the most reasoned version. I even showed you a source 500 years ago. The ethnonym Kyrgyz was then translated as kyrk oguz.

Forty girls is just a consonance. And I ask you to remove this line. Kyrgyzophobes like to use this version. For example, Tajiks during the war on the border. Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Uch Oguz Karluks (3 oguz), Toguz Oguz Uighurs (9 oguz), Otuz Oguz (30 oguz), Segiz Oguz (8 oguz) Wikislowpoke106 (talk) 01:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The suggestion Kırgız < Kırk Kız seems a far-fetched folk etymology. Is there a scholarly source actually proposing this?  --Lambiam 23:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Not a factual number allright.

kırk kere "untold times"
kırk dereden su getirmek "make all kinds of excuses"
kılı kırk yarma "finicalness" , " split hairs"
kırk yıllık kani olur mu yani "you can not teach an old dog a new trick"
yalancı kırk yılda bir doğru söylese de inanan olmaz " liar is not believed even when he tells the truth"
hiç/kırk yıl düşünsem aklıma gelmezdi "can you beat it/that? expr"
kırk yılda bir "once in a blue moon expr."
Flāvidus (talk) Flāvidus (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

pants

RFV of the etymology. Tagged but not listed a while ago by another editor, so I'm listing it here. Clearly pants is from pantaloons, the issue is where the meaning of rubbish comes from. It seems likely to me that it is due to the association of pants with other words meaning rubbish, like shit and crap, but there are other theories that might be worth discussing or mentioning as plausible origins of this sense in the etylology section of our pants entry. Other ideas are discussed on this thread[13] --Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Since it emerged abruptly in the UK in the 1990s the alternatives suggested at the WordReference topic (from German and from the turn-of-the-century US "my name is pants" phrase) look tendentious to me. The one published treatment I can find, in Susie Dent's 2007 Language Report, credits either Simon Mayo or Zoe Ball, and at any rate it seems to have been a radio invention. Michael Quinion says the same anecdotally ("It first turned up in print in 1994, in pieces that indicate it was popularised by DJs on the BBC’s radio pop channel, Radio 1, most probably by Simon Mayo, though the finger is often pointed at Zoë Ball" [14]) but suggests it might have originated among students a couple of years before then. We can speculate about why they chose "pants" specifically; I doubt there's a very deep explanation beyond it sounding funny. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 02:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Strephon

Could the name of this pastoral shepherd character, who first seems to turn up in English in Sidney's Arcadia, not come from the greek στρεθω (strepho, in case the greek letters don't come out), meaning to turn? Strephon certainly sings in Sidney; and in later manifestations eg Tippett's Midsummer Marriage, he is the leader of the dance. Strephonie (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The Ancient Greek word you're asking about is στρέφω (stréphō, “to turn, twist”). That verb is related to strophe, so I suppose there is a poetical connection. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

And στρέφων (stréphōn) is the masculine form of its present participle, meaning “turning, twisting”, or, used as a noun, “one who turns or twists”.  --Lambiam 18:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

cracker ("poor white" and friends)

The paragraph "Various theories exist..." is formatted in a very bemusing way. The theory that is supported by pieces of evidence from the eighteenth century and apparently preferred by all the linked references is placed last. The hypothesis linking it to corncracker is considered a serious alternative by Etymonline but called a folk etymology by Burrison, who also rejects the cattle driver hypothesis. The suggestion about plantation slave drivers currently lacks a source and presents theoretical problems; perhaps it should just be omitted. The OED for the reference only accepts the braggart theory and mentions the corncracker hypothesis to reject it. Would anyone object to a rewrite that puts the most mainstream theory front and centre? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I can easily see how any of these theories might have contributed to the modern usage, with each reinforcing and influencing what may have already existed. I don't mind putting the mainstream one first though. Leasnam (talk) 00:19, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Neokeronopsis, Keronopsis and Kerona

Neokeronopsis is the type genus of the Neokeronopsidae family. From neo, "new", and "keronopsis", alluding to the genus Keronopsis; name itself composed of keron, by allusion to the genus Kerona I think, and opsis, from the Greek suffix ops, “which looks like”. But ultimately what does Kerona mean? On Muller's original description (1786) here I can read: Kerona orbicularis membranacea, nasuta, corniculis in tota pagina which I don't understand at all. Is it an allusion to a horn or a cirrus that the protozoan has on its body? Thanks for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 17:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Another potential source for keron in Keronopsis is κηρών (kērṓn, “beehive”).^[15]  --Lambiam 17:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

"Keronopsis is a composite of Kerona (an oxytrichid genus whose name is likely derived from the Greek noun he keronea [sic: κερωνία (kerōnía)], the fruit of the carob tree, Ceratonia siliqua […]) and the Greek suffix -opsis" [16]. (The description from Müller you quote is for a specific species and doesn't explain why the genus is called kerona—it's just stating what kind of kerona it is.) —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

More significant is a single-line short description after the heading for the genus (each genus heading has one- Trichoda has Vermis inconspicuus, pellucidus, crinitus, and Himantopus has Vermis inconspicuus pellucidus, cirratus.), with a footnote explaining the reason for creating the genus:

Vermis inconspicuus corniculatus. ²²

22) Cum ob organa externa in Rastella [the first species is Kerona rastellum], nec cilia, nec pilos, sed aculeos seu cornicula simulentia, genus novum uni speciei fingendum esset, e genere Trichodæ, ut nimia specierum affluentia diminueretur, corniculis aculeiformibus, non quidem in tota pagina, instructos, Trichodisque in reliquus magis affines, exemi, unaque cum Param, Histrione novo generi adjunxi.

As for the carob tree: κερωνῐ́ᾱ (kerōníā) is an alternative form of κερᾱτωνῐ́ᾱ (kerātōníā), and both names refer to the horn-shaped pods of that species. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

mavis

I’ve found many competing origins for mavis. Our etymology seems to link to a now dead Vulgar Latin malvitius apparently from malum vitis and so “enemy of the vine”, however across different dictionaries and wikimedia I have found several different ideas, but all of them seem to allege that it is not as cut and dry as our etymology suggests. I found links to mave and mauve, links to Breton, and one link to Greek μαβής, I think the Latin derivation makes sense but I’m just wondering how strong it really is compared to the other etymologies CanadianRosbif (talk) 10:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The proposed derivation from malum vitis smells like folk etymology. Etymology and history of “mauvis”, in Trésor de la langue française informatisé [Digitized Treasury of the French Language], 2012, presents derivation from the colour name mauve as the main theory, dismissing borrowing from Breton milhui as unsubstantiated, the reverse borrowing being more likely. That the Medieval French would have named a native common bird with a Greek colour name centuries before the Greeks borrowed the name from Ottoman Turkish is too silly to consider, but the modern sense of μαβής may have been influenced by French mauve.  --Lambiam 12:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

It appears that the malum vitis theory is due to Friedrich Diez, who writes, in his Etymologisches Wörterbuch der romanischen Sprachen, Volume 2 (fifth edition, 1887):

Man deutet das wort aus malus, da der vogel dem weinstocke schädlich ist und darum auch grive de vendange, dtsch. weingartsvogel heißt; grammatisch besser wäre malum vitis unheil des rebstocks.^[17]

My translation:

One explains the word from malus, because the bird is harmful to the grapevine and therefore also is called grive de vendange, in German weingartsvogel [“vineyard bird”]; grammatically better would be malum vitis disaster of the grapevine.

So malum vitis is not presented so much as a theory, but as a pedantic improvement on a supposed one-word etymon ascribed to “one”. And Dietz actually just mentions this, in the next sentences expressing his preference for the Breton theory. All considered, I see no clear argument for even mentioning the malum vitis theory.  --Lambiam 12:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

doodlebugger

"(slang) A seismologist working in the field": What sense of doodlebug is this from? —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 13:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Initially, a divining rod seems most likely to me. (Secondarily, one of the bugs.) Wakuran (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The main business of seismic field workers, aka ”exploration geophysicists“, is to find subterranean deposits of natural resources such as oil fields. An article in Oil and Gas Journal explains the term as follows: Doodlebugger has become a generic name for a seismic field worker. The term originated at least as far back as the 1930s and referred to unconventional methods of exploration. A "water witch" with a forked limb was sometimes referred to as a "doodlebugger."^[18] (Dowsing rods often are fashioned from forked twigs.)  --Lambiam 11:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, have added the sense to the entry. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

lito in the Salian law

What is the origin of this Germanic an-stem meaning 'serf'? I don't think an entry exists. It should be under Frankish, so we should probably add that language back (@Sokkjo). ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 16:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

An initial guess is a derivation from Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/liþuz, such as German Glied. But then, perhaps the term's usage for both "body part" and "person who's part of a group" would be calqued from Latin, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Salic law, the Germanic language used in that document is Old Dutch (odt), so that's the language we should have an entry for. Proto-Germanic *lētaz has the right consonants and semantics but the wrong vowel and ending. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:17, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If the linked lemma is correct, the term seems to be derived from Gothic via Late Latin, so I guess that could explain some anomalities in its form. Wakuran (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Wakuran above, that it was borrowed from a Germanic language (probably Gothic or Frankish) into Latin as litus, ledus, litum, lito, litos, letum, leti, letis, etc. The Gothic term is only attested as meaning "part of the body, member, limb", but the OHG cognate lid meant "member of a community, servant, fellow" (in addition to its literal sense of "limb, member"), so it's possible that it could have been borrowed from early OHG or its parent, West Germanic (Frankish) instead. Leasnam (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure if this was found as lito in a germanic language (if it was forgive me). I only see it used in Frankish areas as the forms above and here: De Romano uero uel lito occisis, ... Si quis ingenuos aut litos alteri fidem fecerit, Lex Ribuaria; in Old Saxon areas as servos vel liberos sive liddones; and as lito, litonum, litones, etc. in Old High German areas, but all in Latin. Leasnam (talk) 06:57, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Judging from the entry, Old Dutch lito seems to be derived from Latin litus, from a Germanic derivation from *lētaz rather than *liþuz. My guess might have been wrong. Wakuran (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It was. maltho thi afrio lito ‘I pronounce: I free thee, servant’ is a gloss from the law. None of these words exist on WT. ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 15:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

No, but the infinitive malthon does. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of 峠

Sound shift from 手向け (tamuke, “tribute to a person about to depart”). It is said that these offerings were "given" to them as they traveled into the afterlife, akin to a mountain.

Now, forgive me if I'm getting this massively wrong, since I admittedly don't know more than a smattering about Japanese (whether that's vocab or grammar or etymology etc.). However, even though two sources are indeed cited (from the Daijirin and Daijisen dictionaries), the currently given etymology definitely sounds like a folk etymology more than anything else. WiktionariThrowaway (talk) 19:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Daijisen (1, 2) says 手向け (tamuke) itself had the sense of "highest point on a mountain path" from the fact that travelers prayed and gave offerings to dōsojin there. It makes no connection between 峠 (tōge) and tamuke's other sense of "tribute to a person about to depart". It seems more likely that tōge simply inherited the sense tamuke already had. Rdoegcd (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Maskinongé

The current etymology:

Named after the Maskinongé river, named in turn for the presence of muskellunge (“Esox masquinongy”) in its waters.

does not indicate the linguistic heritage - from Canadian French maskinongé, from masquinongé, from Algonquin mosq ("deformed" or "bear" or "big") + kinonje ("fish"), see wikt:fr:Maskinongé, Québec Toponymie, and Muskies Canada; or Ojibwe maashkinoozhe ("great fish"), maskinoše or mashkinonge ("big pike" or "ugly pike"), see wikt:fr:maskinongé, w:en:Muskellunge. - Amgine/ ^t·e 21:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Alemannic German Porgge

This is claimed to be a borrowing from Italian, but that seems unlikely considering that the latter is quite new to Switzerland (notably, the source cited for this word dates to 1911). The more likely candidates are Romance varieties that historically have been in contact with Swiss German, namely Romansch, Franco-Provençal, and (Ticinese) Lombard - whether the modern or medieval versions. Alternatively, the word may have been borrowed already in the Late Latin period, during or soon after the initial 'Germanization' of Rhaetia.

Incidentally, does anyone know how the word is pronounced? That may be useful for narrowing down its origin. Nicodene (talk) 23:19, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

According to w:Swiss German#Conventions, "⟨gg⟩ is used for the unaspirated fortis /k/", so my guess is /ˈporkə/. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Nicodene (talk) 21:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/snaggjō

RFV of the etymology. The Old English doesn't make sense. -ggjō would cause palatisation in Old English as sneċġa, and the word would be snedge today. I cannot see how the Alternative reconstruction *sneggō can relate back to Proto-Germanic *snagjô: *snagjô could not produce Proto-West Germanic *sneggō. This reconstruction is simply too difficult to work for all descendants, and it's a major driving force behind why it was changed from *snaggjō to *sneggō early on (see History). Leasnam (talk) 00:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

My issue with Kroonen's theory is that it doesn't account for possibly and likelihood of affixes in PGmc/PWgmc (like -gō) and this tends to weaken his reconstruction imo. He seems very unsure of his own reconstruction himself. It would be nice if it were cleanly *snagjô~*snagilaz, that would be perfect for West Germanic, except for the palatisation in OE - that ruins it, unfortunately. Maybe we can consider the ME a borrowing, and kill the OE reconstruction, and that will work (?), I don't know (I'm currently ill at the moment, and am delirious and unable to think straight). My take was fresh and outside of the box and also made sense. And it's sourced at least in Koebler (who, yes, often sources older outdated constructions [no names mentioned], but he doesn't cite anyone specifically for this one: he has it as *sneggōn/sneggan. For what it's worth. Leasnam (talk) 01:03, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I just checked and it seems unlikely that the ME snegge (also sneke) is a borrowing, because the Middle Dutch is snecke (rare) and the Middle Low German is snigge, snicke, so the form is not a close enough match - I would expect a Middle Dutch and Middle Low German loaner to be snegge. Leasnam (talk) 01:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I cannot see who you are talkimg to. Anyway, did you mean snatch phonetically "snedge"?

Leasnam's merely trying to work out the etymology, personally. Possibly someone will respond, later. Also, this is a root word meaning "snail", so "snatch" is clearly incorrect, and from another root. Finally, in the future, please sign your posts with four tilde; ~~~~ Wakuran (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Snatch is synonym with Schnecke (“vagina”), which would easily explain the lack of attestation and the rarity of it in German. I only heard it once in the movie City of God and don't know if it's citable, so I'm telling you it because it supports the phonology. I'll take that over arbitrary folk etymology in the form of pubescent jokes, unless the joke is told right. 185.109.152.69 17:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If this is a movie dubbed into German from Portuguese, it could be a translation of concha, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 13:16, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

snedge ~ snatch - that's a stretch, even for me ! :] Leasnam (talk) 16:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@Leasnam: What are saying? If you humor me, I'll wear it as a patch of honor. So long as there is no threat of punishment by Strick. There's a good chance that it's unrelated, cf. Pfeifer "schnieke". 185.109.152.169 15:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)