User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 1

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tempura

Hi,

Are you sure about Min Nan transliterations? It's not POJ. It should be "thian-pū-lô/thiⁿ-pū-lô". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

According to 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典, it is read thian35 pu55 lah3. Because it doesn't follow any tone sandhi (in fact tone contour 35 doesn't exist usually in Hokkien), I don't know how it would be written in POJ (with proper tones). Justinrleung (talk) 03:20, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the source. We should probably establish some (stricter) rules for Min Nan transliterations and scripts to be used, as they may be a base for future entries.

You have also added Japanese katakana アイスクリーム as a Min Nan translation for [[ice cream]] with transliteration "ai55 sirh3 khu33 lin51 mu11". Well, Japanese is the source language but it's not how Min Nan is written, is it? It should be either POJ or hanzi. Calling @Wyang for help here. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

[1] I found your source for アイスクリーム but the source doesn't say that it's written that way in Min Nan. Do you want to hold off with such translations and maybe seek some agreement in the Beer parlour or something, pls? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I will hold these translations off. I have added a discussion to the Beer parlour. Justinrleung (talk) 04:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Related concern. Talk:自動車. The spoken word may have been loaned as ji33-loo51-sia11 but our source, DFTM/THCWD/MoE, may not support that ji33-loo51-sia11 should be considered a Min Nan reading of the characters. Posting here in case ping did not work. Hongthay (talk) 04:59, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Alt. Cantonese tones

Hi,

Please note that unlike [2] we use "-", not "*" for alternative tone numbers in Jyutping, e.g. 爸爸 (baa^1-4 baa¹). The entries convert "*" to "-". Maybe User:Kc_kennylau could add this? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I see it's already doing it, anyway, "-" is better than "*". Thanks for your contributions. :) --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

蒼蠅

Note that the toneless second syllable is only indicated when it is a variant, not when the pronunciation is always toneless (even in Taiwan). Compare, for example, 我們 and 媽媽 (of which the second syllable is always toneless) with 動物 and 次要 (of which the second syllable is sometimes toneless, depending on the preferences or accent of the speaker). ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder! However, I think 蒼蠅 is not always read with a toneless 蠅. According to the Revised Mandarin Dictionary, it is read as cāngying, but according to Chinese Linguipedia, it is read as cāngyíng in Taiwan and cāngying in mainland China. Should I use tl=y, or should I have two separate pronunciations? Justinrleung (talk) 14:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic Justinrleung (talk) 05:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with that second source you give. I would have thought moedict would have been more authoritative in any case. Some online Chinese dictionaries don't indicate 輕聲 very well. Ideally we'd need to survey some Taiwanese to get a definitive answer as to whether they always use 輕聲 here. All my friends are mainlanders unfortunately... ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic According to the guide to 兩岸常用詞典, which is the dictionary found at Chinese Linguipedia, the dictionary adheres to the 國語一字多音審訂表 (the MOE standard for pronunciation) for the Taiwanese Mandarin pronunciation. The guide also specifically mentions how it deals with 輕聲 (詞目中有區別意義作用必須讀為輕聲的，按輕聲注音。可讀輕聲也可不讀輕聲的，一概標注本調。雙方在讀輕聲與否上有差異的，則同時顯示). The pronunciation at the Revised Chinese Dictionary, on the other hand, does not necessarily adhere to the 國語一字多音審訂表, so it is not quite authoritative in terms of "standard" pronunciation. BTW, the Concise Chinese Dictionary, another dictionary released by the Taiwan MOE but adhering to the 國語一字多音審訂表, has cāngying. Maybe both cāngying and cāngyíng are valid in Taiwan. Justinrleung (talk) 05:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I only just saw this message. If you're confident that cāngyíng exists as a pronunciation in Taiwan, then go ahead and make the changes. This is after all a relatively minor thing. For the record, though, I've found moedict to be pretty accurate when it comes to pinyin, tones and qingsheng. Also, when you search for all entries containing 蒼蠅 in moedict, you can see all of them have it as qingsheng, so it's obviously a conscious decision on their part. I note also that the 蒼蠅 in the audio file for 無頭蒼蠅 is also pronounced qingsheng. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

沙茶

A user has asked about this edit. —suzukaze (t・c) 03:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Hippietrail, Suzukaze-c: 沙茶 (shāchá) refers to two different sauces of the same origin:

1. Satay sauce is a peanut sauce that comes from southeast Asia.
2. Shacha sauce is made of soybean oil, garlic, shallots, chilis, brill fish, and dried shrimp, adapted from the satay sauce by the Chinese (predominantly Teochew) who went back to their homeland.

Hope this clears up the issue. Justinrleung (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes thanks. This is pretty much what I figured out in subsequent checking on the Internet. The funny thing is that a chain of cheap restaurants that are not related to Southeast Asia in any apparent way also use a peanut sauce in many/most of their dishes. That's why I started looking for these terms. But it turns out they just call the sauce 花生酱. This sauce may or may not also have the same origin but its name doesn't and is surely too SOP to get an entry here. Interesting (-: — hippietrail (talk) 05:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The plot thickens! We do have an entry for 花生酱 after all, but only in the peanut butter sense. I'll find the name of the restaurant chain and get more details ... — hippietrail (talk) 05:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The restaurant chain is called 沙县小吃 or possibly 福建沙县小吃 — hippietrail (talk) 05:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

w:Shaxian_delicacies — hippietrail (talk) 05:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

锺

Does 锺 have any special meaning like 缐? Yedict says that it is an abolished simplified form of 鍾. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, 锺 can also be used as a surname/name. Justinrleung (talk) 04:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c. Justinrleung (talk) 04:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Common Cantonese foods we are missing

When you get time, would appreciate it if you can add some of these:

• 粉果
• 鹹水餃
• 牛肉球
• 糯米雞
• 芋角
• 魷魚鬚
• 腐皮捲
• 蘿蔔糕
• 芋頭糕
• 馬蹄糕
• 千層糕
• 煎堆
• 豆花
• 奶皇包
• 芝麻糊
• 杏仁餅
• 砵仔糕
• 盆菜
• 羅漢齋
• 白切雞
• 燒肉
• 滷味
• 牛雜
• 香妃雞
• 雲吞麵
• 茶餐廳
• 咖喱魚蛋
• 魚漿
• 碗仔翅
• 雞蛋仔
• 煎釀三寶
• 刨冰
• 伊麵 (missing Canto reading)
• 銀針粉
• 海皇羹
• 油炸粿 (missing Canto reading)
• 炸兩
• 蒸水蛋
• 鹹鴨蛋
• 豬腳薑
• 海鮮雀巢
• 炸子雞
• 甘蔗汁
• 紅荳冰

Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic Thanks for suggesting these words! I've added the Canto reading for 伊麵. For 油炸粿, I'm a bit hesitant on putting a Canto reading, since 粿 is usually gwo2, but in this word, it seems like it should be gwai2, normally written as 油炸鬼 (perhaps a borrowing from Min Nan). As for the others, I'll try to work them soon. — Justinrleung ^(t...)⁄_c=› 05:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic BTW, these are done except for 鹹水餃, which seems to be an incorrect form of 鹹水角／咸水角 (xiánshuǐjiǎo). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Brilliant work, as always. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

山脈 as "shānmò"

Do you happen to know anything about whether 山脈 can be read as "shānmò"? ([3]) —suzukaze (t・c) 03:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c: I think it could be mò according to this. The first definition says that it is a variant of (1) mài (which would include all definitions under mài). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:18, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

(I happened to come across this older conversation about the exact same thing... make of it what you will) —suzukaze (t・c) 05:38, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c: I've seen that conversation a while back, which made me hesitant about putting shānmò in. I think the arguments don't hold water; obscurity, disapproval by native speakers, or the use of a different romanization scheme cannot be used to justify the nonexistence of a pronunciation. Even though I don't have a copy of the dictionary that Hongthay mentions, I think he understands the dictionary's romanization. There seems to be more search results after googling "山脈 shānmò" now. I think we can keep shānmò. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

差點

Do you have a source for the Taiwan pronunciation as chādiǎn? Moedict says chàdiǎnr. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic, I got it from here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

同房

How do the two pronunciations differ here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic The only difference is in Cantonese tung4 fong4 vs tung4 fong4-2. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Is it worth separating two different "pronunciations" of a word if it only differs in a non-Mandarin dialect? This is an issue I would never have expected. Not a big deal of course, but something to think about. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic I've actually thought about that as well. I must admit that it might be a bit too much to split the pronunciations if it's just for one lect (Mandarin or non-Mandarin). On another note, I'm also asking @Hongthay if he knows anything about the two Min Nan readings (whether the difference is meaningful). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:42, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, no idea. Doesn't show up in the MoE dict. Both readings show up in the Tw-Ch dict, but without further detail. Hongthay (talk) 08:26, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Hongthay That's fine. @Wyang, would you know by any chance? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry Justin, I don't know either. Tried to look it up in dictionaries, but to no avail. Wyang (talk) 08:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

到

Wiktionary:Translation_requests/archive/2015#Cantonese_to_Standard_Chinese and the second example at 不起 seem to suggest that it's valid. (?) Is it dialectal? —suzukaze (t・c) 03:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c I'm not sure then. I find it strange that most Mandarin dictionaries don't have this definition. It might be used in Mandarin, but 得 seems to be more common. I don't know if anyone else might know better. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 12:22, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic, Wyang Do you have any idea? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:53, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

• Seems acceptable to me. Surely an ellipsis for 到...地步/程度. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:33, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Both 得 (dé) and 到 (dào) can be used in this situation. The former is used if the emphasis is on the adjective, the latter if the emphasis is on the extent. Wyang (talk) 06:04, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

相干

If you get time, could you add the non-Mandarin readings? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:53, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic Wiktionary has Cantonese, Hakka and Min Nan data - Advanced search (in modules). Hakka - siông-kôn, Min Nan - siang-kan/siong-kan, Cantonese - soeng1 gon1. Please check the link. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:12, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, @Atitarev. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:04, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Some common Min Nan words we are missing

Hi Justin, when you have time, would you mind adding these common Min Nan words we are missing? Thanks.

翁某 = 夫妻、夫婦、伉儷

搬戲 = 表演、演戲

禮數 = 禮節

年兜 = 年尾、年跟腳，指年終歲暮將近過年的那幾天（除夕、春節）

西北雨 ＝ 陣雨

---> Tooironic (talk) 07:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic It should be done. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

茶水

What did you mean by the sense you added "any beverage"? Could you provide a usage example? ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:10, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic I've added a quotation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:46, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks, that looks much clearer now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:52, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

老少咸宜

I'll need your help to add non-Mandarin readings here, I had to add it manually. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic I only know it's Cantonese. Can't seem to find the other topolects' readings. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 13:20, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Could you explain why 説 is shinjitai of 說?

Many modern dictionaries do not list the old form 說 in the Japanese language dictionaries since they do not recognize it. What do you consider about the identical simplications of 鋭, 税, and 脱 (there is still no style=s and kyu=char)? Their respective variants of 銳, 稅, and 脫 have never been used at all in the Japanese language. Even the electronic Japanese dictionary does not recognize 說, 銳, 稅, and 脫. (But the old forms of 陷 (陥), 擴 (拡), and 繪 (絵) can be recognized.) Eyesnore (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eyesnore I'm not very sure, but from the methods of simplification here, it seems reasonable to consider the 兑 forms as shinjitai. Most modern Chinese dictionaries from mainland China don't include 兌 forms either, since 兑 is the standard form in mainland China (and Hong Kong). They usually only have a list of 新字形 showing 兑 as 新字形 in an appendix or something. @suzukaze-c, Nibiko, TAKASUGI Shinji, what do you think? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:32, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

There are also things with 呉. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

They are font variants and generally considered identical, but Unicode sometimes separate font variants for compatibility reasons. In this case, 説 and 說 are not considered different characters but they happened to have different codes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Template:zh-new and suppressing Mandarin

|m=- can be used to suppress the generation of Pinyin ;) —suzukaze (t・c) 04:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, @suzukaze-c! That should be on the documentation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:17, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Added. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Dialectal tone TRS marking

Since we're on the topic of tone markings, 注射 for Lokkang has 注射　tsù-siǎ...what does the upside down caret diacritic mean? Hongthay (talk) 04:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

It's the 6th tone (陽上聲) that has merged with the 2nd and 7th tones in other dialects of Taiwanese. This tone is also present in Quanzhou dialect. See User:Justinrleung/Interdialectal differences in Quan-Zhang Min Nan. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Hongthay — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

哄動

Could you kindly add the Cantonese for 哄動? I have a feeling it will be different to 轟動. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:55, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tooironic Done. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:56, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)