User talk:Eirikr/2014

Korean 하다-verbs

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about treating Korean 하다-verbs like Japanese する verbs, and unfortunately it stalled but if you have the time, your input might help move it forward and maybe toward an agreement of some sort. Haplogy (話) 01:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I second the request. The more I see hada-verbs (하다-verbs), the more I'm convinced that they are identical to suru-verbs in Japanese and similarly, they may not be separable. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

• Hmm. I'm not up on Korean anywhere near as much as I want to be. As such, I'm reticent to weigh in on either side of the argument. I *can* say definitively that I think any user searching for a [noun]+hada term should be able to find it, and that this entry should at least link to (if not wholly redirect to) the root [noun] term.

It would also seem to make the most sense to create one verb conjugation table for hada, and just import that statically ... but then again, maybe not.

I'll think about it over the next few days, and (time allowing) maybe try to see what KO dictionaries do. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Re: any user searching for a [noun]+hada term should be able to find it. Absolutely, that should be the case for Japanese [noun]+suru terms as well. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

大君

Hi Eirikr. Thank you for creating 大君 (たいくん, ​taikun): that is excellent work; very detailed. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Cheers! My time is still more limited than I'd like (sometimes I daydream about being paid to build and maintain the JA entries here :) ), but I've got some leeway to get my feet back into the water, at least. Now to have a look at creating 可愛がる... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Very good again. :-) I hope you don't mind that I have added the other two terms for which たいくん is also the hiragana to WT:WE. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

definiens

I think there might be some distinction between definition and definiens, though it would not much matter in 99+% of usage. Taking AHD's definition of definition: "A statement of the meaning of a word, phrase, or term, as in a dictionary entry", a definition is a full statement, which I take to be a sentence with a subject and a predicate. If so, the definiendum is the subject and the definiens the predicate (or part of the predicate) of the definition sentence. AHD's definition of definiens is "The word or words serving to define another word or expression, as in a dictionary entry", ie, NOT a statement.

Now AHD's is not my everyday understanding of the meaning of definition, but it might account for the specific technical terms. DCDuring TALK 01:45, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

• Ta indeed for the explanation! One of the things I love about participating in this project is that there's always something new to learn...  :) Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

了𠄏

Hi. I am concerned about this entry with Japanese header created by an IP. Since the second sign is unprocessable by search and it appears as a square to me, I considered deleting it, but I deemed it suitable to theretofore refer it to a more conversant user. Does it look like a hoax to you?
P.S. Your answer in the RfV section about ‎奇人 addresses fully my concerns (to use the opportunity to reply here). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 10:40, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Looks like pure tosh. The "reference" site they gave lists completely unlikely kanji, including one that looks like cursive Devanagari with a stated definition of "we have no idea what this means". Other listed characters are regular kanji written upside down and given apparently arbitrary readings and meanings. My take: some oddball or manga might conceivably use these, but unless they are citable, they have no business here.

I'll look into it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 02:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that was rubbish. Deleted. Zero hits on Google for google:"了𠄏" "は", which is particularly damning. Not in any other resources I have to hand either, and after 25 years studying the language, I've never run across the second "kanji" here (looks like 了 turned upside-down), nor indeed any of the bizarre variants listed at http://www.geocities.jp/f9305710/henkanji.html. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

するverbs

Hi,

Do we still allow するverbs? See 愛する or the new one: 恋する. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, the latter one is not new but badly formatted こいする. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:08, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

• Found it. Took some digging around in memory and then my archive.

Some of us discussed this briefly over here: User_talk:Eirikr/Archive_2011-2012#.E9.BC.BB.E6.B1.97 Scroll down to (or search for) the text reading:

Hello. I would write kansuru for 関する...

Takasugi-san made a good case for indivisible -suru verbs, which consist (I think) entirely of single kanji + する, based in large part on 1) their historical development from kanji + す, and also on their resultant different conjugations -- these generally do not take -dekiru and instead take -seru for the potential form, for instance. That said, there are some changes underway in modern Japanese, and 恋 it seems can now take -dekiru instead, with google:"恋せる" getting 38K hits and google:"恋できる" getting 44K. However, other single-kanji -suru verbs like 愛 cannot (yet?) take -dekiru.

I haven't spent a lot of time working on or thinking about these single-kanji + -suru verbs, but we should probably have a separate template for them, given the differences in conjugation.

Does that explanation answer your question? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. So, 恋する should use {{ja-suru-i-ku}}? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• Looks like it. I didn't know that template existed; thanks for clueing me in! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Moving counters to classifiers

Hi,

Is there a quick way to move Category:Japanese counters to Category:Japanese classifiers as in Category:Classifiers by language? What needs to change? @TAKASUGI_Shinji has already expressed his support. See WT:Beer parlour/2014/April#Measure word, continued from WT:Beer parlour/2013/November#Measure word. I tried to do 位 but something goes wrong. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Never mind the problem. @Wyang helped me fix it. There 128 pages, though, in Category:Japanese counters. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Why are you doing this? No one seriously discussed changing Japanese- a single comment by one Japanese editor does NOT constitute the consensus of the whole Japanese community. STOP!!! Chuck Entz (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi. @Eirikr. I will undo the changes but it may take some time. See BP discussion for more. @Chuck Entz, no need to yell in multiple places, I can understand normal language and you should understand that people may not always be able to answer immediately, there's also time difference. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

honorific forms

Hi,

What's the policy on Japanese honorific nouns, if there is any? Do we redirect, ignore them, make alternative forms and is there a template for it? See diff. I've made an entry for 知らせ, do we need one for お知らせ? And is it a good idea to display them as alternative forms on the lemma entry? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hmm, good question. I don't know of any specific policy. My gut feeling is that commonly occurring honorifics should perhaps be included, with simple etyms using {{prefix}}, and sense lines basically directing the reader to the lemma entry.

Listing as alternative forms might make sense for very common forms, like oshirase or ocha. But that seems more like a subjective judgment call. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I ended up making six(!) entries, please check (starting at) 知らせ. I wish there could be a better way :). Apart from etymology, I labeled honorific terms accordingly. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Etyl and Cognates

Don't forget that when you put "cognate with {{etyl|ojp|ams}}" you're actually categorizing it in Category:Southern Amami-Oshima terms derived from Old Japanese, which is wrong. When you say they're cognates, you're really saying they come from a common source, presumable Proto-Japonic (jpx-pro). I'm sure you were aware of this and just forgot, but in case you weren't, that would mean you would do something more like "cognate with {{etyl|ojp|-}}" or from "{{etyl|jpx-pro|ams}}, cognate with {{etyl|ojp|-}}". Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you! I'd gotten my wires crossed and wound up with the wikicode version of a spoonerism, after a fashion. Thanks for getting that sorted appropriately. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for help with user language Malagasy templates on EN Wiktionary

Hello Jagwar --

I noticed recently that one of our newer users on the English Wiktionary (User:LalalalaSta) wants to use Template:User mg-1 to state that they understand a basic level of Malagasy. However, that template doesn't exist yet. I have the technical ability to create such a template, but I know almost nothing about Malagasy aside from that it's spoken in Madagascar and that it's a cousin to Polynesian languages like Hawaiian or Māori.

So far, the only Malagasy user language template we have is for native speakers, Template:User mg. Would you be able to create the templates Template:User mg-1, Template:User mg-2, Template:User mg-3, and Template:User mg-4? If you're not comfortable creating the templates, I could do that part -- except the templates would require the following statements translated into Malagasy:

• for Template:User mg-1: This user is able to contribute with a basic level of Malagasy.
• for Template:User mg-2: This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of Malagasy.
• for Template:User mg-3: This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of Malagasy.
• for Template:User mg-4: This user speaks Malagasy at a near-native level.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could either create the templates, or translate the above.

Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20 Aprily 2014 à 01:38 (UTC)

Hello Eiríkr,

As far as I can see, the Babel extension has been implemented into the English Wiktionary. Malagasy is supported in it from level 0 to N. Thus I strongly recommend you to use the Babel extension as this one is supported, for as many languages as possible, in every Wikimedia wiki.

Invoke the babel extension by this syntax {{#babel: de | mg-1 | ... }}

The use of this extension also allows the user to be automatically put into the right language level category. I hope this helps :) Best regards, — Jagwargrr... mailaka 20 Aprily 2014 à 09:46 (UTC)

Hello Jagwar --

Thank you for replying. I'm afraid I wasn't clear in my initial message to you. Yes, we have {{Babel}}, which works for many things. However, the {{Babel}} template itself does, in turn, use various {{User [lang]-[number]}} templates to populate the Babel table. If any of those templates are missing, the call to the Babel template doesn't produce the desired results. I've knocked up a sample of this at [[User:Eirikr/Scratchpad]], illustrating how Babel calls other templates, and what happens if those other templates are missing. I'd appreciate it if you could have a look.

Thanks again, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:39, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello Eiríkr,

I've created the templates, and you can now use them as you wish. Best regards, Jagwar (talk) 23:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• Brilliant, thank you very much! In Hawaiian at least, mahalo nui loa!

水戸

Hi,

Could you fix the kanji-tab, please? I'm not sure about the reading "み". I'd like to go through place names in Appendix:Mandarin_exonyms_for_Japanese_placenames and also make Chinese entries. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Done. み is right, it's an OJP form that shows up in compounds. See also 泉, 源, etc., where the み portion is this 水 root. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. BTW, what is your source (which dictionaries) you use for Japanese pronunciations? I'd like to update mine. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to be a pain. In 埼玉, what's the resulting reading of nanori + kun'yomi? Can I mark it as yomi=kun, still? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Heya, no worries, was offline overnight as I slept.  :)   Well, mostly slept -- our foster puppy crapped herself twice during the night, making things a bit less restful than one would hope...

Anyway, ya, I actually responded about pitch dictionaries over at [[Talk:계속]], so have a look there.

As for what kind of reading a given character has (i.e. 呉音 (goon), 漢音 (kan'on), 唐音 (tōon), etc.), I no longer have the dead-tree dictionary that I used to use for that, and it's been so long all I can remember is the sleeve color, not even the title.  :(

That said, Daijisen (大辞泉) tends to list that kind of info for single kanji, and Kotobank's Digital Daijisen entries include this. They don't have every kanji, but a lot of them. See http://kotobank.jp/word/%E9%A2%A8 and scroll down to the Daijisen entry for an example of their 風 entry, clearly differentiating the 呉音 (goon) and 漢音 (kan'on).

Weblio also provides some info on individual kanji, but generally without differentiating kinds of on'yomi. See http://www.weblio.jp/content/%E9%A2%A8 for their 風 entry.

Meanwhile, Weblio's entry for 埼 at http://www.weblio.jp/content/%E5%9F%BC does clearly show that sai is regarded as kun'yomi, not just nanori.　　I'll fix our entry in a moment.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Could you check 宇都宮, in particular, the appearance of "の" between つ and みや? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад)

• Yeah, that's one of those implied の instances, as in old personal names like Fujiwara no Yoritomo, where the の isn't spelled out and actually doesn't belong to any of the kanji.

(I used to live in Utsunomiya. Odd town, at least when I was there -- the yaks ran the city government, and the expats all called it Utsunomi iya da for the somewhat scary right-winger "kick out the barbarians" buses that would drive around with blacked out windows, playing WWII propaganda music at full blast. Good gyoza, though.)

Interesting, I wish I could spend more time in Japan.

Can we have |yomi=irregular in such cases, also when okurigana is implied but not written? I'd like to see a more comprehensive list of yomi's but that may be a hard thing to do. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:34, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• I've been thinking about that, and our current yomi classification system is a good beginning, but it does have a lot of gaps -- just using irreg for everything makes it not so useful. In this case, the Utsu part is on'yomi (goon), but the no is indeed implied, and the miya is kun'yomi. In this case, I don't think the no even counts as okurigana, since okurigana are the kana bits on the end of a verb or adjective, not the particles.

I'm not sure how best to proceed. One thought is to allow kanji within a term to be grouped and given a group reading type, so a single term might have multiple reading types. Not sure how that would be implemented, though. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I know it's not okurigana in this case, I meant missing also missing okurigana or implied "の", any type of irregular shortening a longer reading? If it's too complex "irregular" is an umbrella for such cases (it could also be wikified with a brief description of possible irregularities). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

romaji

Hi. I doubt with this: https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E3%8C%9A&oldid=prev&diff=26609069 Since 'ou' is usually represented in 'ō', but why 'ei' is not replaced into 'ē' in the same way? --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Katakana terms, when they are borrowed terms, sometimes behave differently. The term is explicitly spelled with the ゼイ, where a simple long ē would be spelled ゼー. You'll note that even the Unicode Consortium uses the KURUZEIRO romanization in their label for this symbol. I suspect the イ is intended to convey that this term does actually have a diphthong /ei/ instead of just a monophthong /eː/, probably in reflection of the pronunciation of cruzeiro in Portuguese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

エイ is always romanized to ei, no matter how it is pronounced. 時計 is tokei, not tokē. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese editing

Hi,

Don't tell me you burned out as well! Who's gonna edit Japanese? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Eirikr has never had enough free time to spend on this for him to get burnt out. Long periods of absence are quite normal. Unless you know something I don't, I wouldn't worry. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

• Cheers, sorry for the long absence.  :)   Chuck has the right of it -- I haven't gotten burned out so much as buried under. I've got multiple projects at work that have me waaay further behind the eight ball than is comfortable, and a handful of projects in my own business that take up still more time, and then family stuff on top of that. I'm not gone -- just misplaced.  :-P

(I should put a note at the top here...)

Ta for the note, and TTFN ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:29, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese pitch accent resources again

Hi,

Sorry to ask you the same question again but I couldn't find an affordable dictionary (app) or a web-site, which uses the same notations as ours, which shows Japanese pitch accent, can I ask you again? Worst case scenario, I'll order a dictionary from Amazon or something. Do you understand the conversion if numbers are used instead, e.g 0 = 平板型, 1 = 頭高型, etc.?--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Daijirin is one of the common sources when searching the 国語辞典 at Weblio, as at the entry for 傾向 here. This is free, so as long as you have web access, you're good to go.  :)   Daijirin uses the numbering notation, which marks the mora on which the pitch accent drops (i.e. right after that number of morae there is a downstep). So a number of 0 means there is no downstep -- the pitch rises on the second mora, then slowly drops until the next rise, i.e. heiban. A number of 1 means that the pitch starts high on the first mora, after which there is an immediate downstep, i.e. atamadaka. Etc.

One of the best dictionaries for pitch accent information for Tokyo-dialect 標準語 is NHK's 日本語発音アクセント辞典. Main page here on NHK's site, Amazon.co.jp listing here. It's also available for Android and iOS for ¥3,100, for use in a free-download dictionary app called Dejizo (デ辞蔵). NHK's dictionary also has information on when が is /ga/ and when it's /ŋa/ instead, among other bits and bobs, which is quite useful. This dictionary lists the pitch accents approved for use by NHK newscasters, so it's just about the closest thing to "official" pronunciation as you're going to get for 標準語.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:06, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Yes, it does. Any other number is Nakadaka with the number showing the last mora before the pitch accent drops? I actually ended up buying NHK 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (quite large and expensive) for my ASUS Padfone Infinity phone (it has a station, so it's better than iPad). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:19, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Re: number, nakadaka is any case where ([number of morae] > 2) && ([pitch number] > 1) && ([pitch number] < [number of morae]). You can only have nakadaka on words with at least three morae, which makes sense, since you need to have a middle mora.  :)

Odaka is any case where [pitch number] == [number of morae]. This means it's possible to have single-mora odaka words, such as 火(ひ) (hi), contrasting with heiban 日(ひ) (hi).

Does that make sense? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it does, thank you. It would be good if we displayed the numbers next to pitch accent names. That way it would be easier to cross-reference resources like Weblio with Wiktionary.

Do you mind checking if I'm right in my assumptions on Shinji's talk page? Re: 朝鮮 that notation "ちょ↗ーせ↘ん" is the same as ［3］ and that ソウル is pronounced as [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ], not [so̞ːɾ̠ɯᵝ]. What's the pitch accent pattern on ソウル? I couldn't find anything on pronunciation of these, apart from "ちょ↗ーせ↘ん" in the Japanese Wiktionary. Last question, again Korea-related - are 韓国 and 勧告 full homophones? To my ear, they are. Cheers. :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Re: showing pitch accent numbers, probably a good idea. Should only need a tweak to {{ja-pron}} to display that.

Re: 朝鮮, Daijirin doesn't show any pitch. I suspect the NHK dictionary might, but I no longer have regular access to my copy of the NHK accent dictionary, as it's on an Android phone that has half-died and I leave it at home as a result. Likewise for ソウル. I suspect the JA WT entry for 朝鮮 is correct about pitch, but they don't have pitch either for ソウル.  :( ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The app version of NHK doesn't have these words but it has 勧告, which sounds exactly as 韓国. I have already added pronunciation on both. Will add for 朝鮮, thanks for the confirmation. If you find out anything about ソウル, pls let me know. It may belong to Category:Japanese words with nonphonetic spellings, right, if pronunciation is confirmed as [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ]? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:02, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

No explanation given: reverted edit at 見

I'm curious as to why you reverted my edit at 見. English Wiktionary is in the process of unifying the separate Chinese topolect sections (Mandarin, Cantonese, Min Nan, Hakka, etc.) into single "Chinese" sections using Template:zh-pron. Thanks, Bumm13 (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

• @Bumm13 Sorry for the trouble, I was trying to hit a different link on my watchlist, and as the javascript and other parts of the page loaded, the list jumped right as I clicked. I reverted my reversion as soon as I noticed what had happened though, so the 見 entry should be back to the state you left it in. I realized only after reverting my reversion that I probably should have used Undo instead so I could leave an explanation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:53, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Okie, no problem, I just thought it was odd. Keep up the good work here! :) Regards, Bumm13 (talk) 21:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Welsh cwm

Hi, sorry, but your edits for Welsh cwm are way off base. I'm not sure you understand how all the words relate to each other. To begin with, French is a Romance language, which means that - whatever the source of combe - we agree it's not from Latin, which means it was borrowed at some point, not inherited. It therefore can't be a cognate and shouldn't be listed as if it were one. As for Dutch kom, it comes from MDu combe, which is plainly a loan from Old French. Likewise, Old English cumb (mod. comb (coomb is less common)) was borrowed from British Celtic; hump is the correct cognate. Indo-European k- and -b normally give h- and -p in Germanic, which is why the correct cognate is hump. So, you've jumbled superfluous loans in with cognates.

While listing the loans is not wrong per se, not explaining they're loans and not setting them apart from the cognates certainly is. No average reader can be expected to tell one from the other. Torvalu4 (talk) 00:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• @Torvalu4 -- Thank you for the additional detail. I had viewed the origin of French combe from Transalpine Gaulish as an inheritance rather than borrowing, since the Gauls became the French, broadly speaking, but reading around some more, it sounds like the consensus view may be more that Gaulish was wholly replaced by Latin, making any residual Gaulish terms borrowings instead. Past there, your post also makes it clear that you're operating from a sound basis, which is both happy news, and a prompt for me to bow out where I'm out of my depth.  :)

FWIW, you might consider adding some more languages to your userpage, since you clearly know more than just English and French.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Japanese for disc 1, … 2, … 3, etc.

Hello Eiríkr. I was wondering, what with you being listed in Category:User ja-4, whether you could help me with a short English-to-Japanese translation that's stumped me. You know how, in a multi-disc music album, each disc can be entitled "[album title]: disc №"? Well, how would that be written in Japanese? Would it be simply "[album title] 〜 ディスク 一" (for disc one), or is there a way to write it which avoids the gairaigo? Any help you can give would be most appreciated. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• No worries.  :)   A quick look at a listing on Amazon.co.jp for a band I know pulled up this link to a three-disc set. Scroll down to the music tracks header section (or just click this second link), and you can clearly see things listed as ディスク：1, ディスク：2, ディスク：3.

If you're trying to find a way specifically to avoid 外来語, regardless of how commonly used the term might be, you could use 1 枚目, 2 枚目 instead. 枚(まい) (mai) is the counter for flat things like discs, and 目(め) (me) is the ordinal suffix, so 1 枚目 means first flat thing [i.e. disc]. A quick Google search for this usage shows some examples, so I think it's safe to say that folks would understand this wording too.

HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

That helps very much, thank you. :-) I've gone with "[album title]〜一枚目", "[album title]〜二枚目", "[album title]〜三枚目", etc. Is that acceptable presentation, in your opinion? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 19:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Looks fine by me.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for your help with this. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 20:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ

I saw this in Special:WantedCategories and created it (the only member: 尻もどき), but it looks like it got its reading from 穴. Should I label it as kan'on after that entry, or is there some other way to deal with it? Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Hmm, I just had a look at the JA WT page to see what data they have. The 発音 (pronuncication) section of the 尻 entry shows that this character doesn't have an official reading of けつ, making me think that this is a 慣用読み / 慣用音, or customary reading, probably by extension from 穴 (“hole”), as you note. {{ja-kanjitab}} doesn't mention it in the template's documentation, but you can use a yomi value of kan to indicate 慣用読み.

Does that answer meet your needs? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:13, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but (sorry for the pun): adding "kan" adds it to Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon, which is another item in Special:WantedCategories that I'm not sure what to do with (I added "kan" to {{ja-readingcat}} for Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ, but that created a bogus redlinked category, which I was going to ask you about, but I finally figured out that "kan'yōon" was the correct value). Any suggestions on how to deal with Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon and its sister Category:Japanese terms spelled with ateji‏‎? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:51, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I asked User:TAKASUGI Shinji, but they seem to have forgotten about it again. —CodeCat 02:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and created them, but I'm sure they can use some correction and/or tweaking based on a better knowledge of the language and of the practices among the editors who edit in it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it is better categorize けつ as a kun because it has nothing to with the real on きゅう. In the case of 笏, the common reading しゃく, which is from 尺, is treated as a kun. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I made the change in both Category:Japanese terms spelled with 尻 read as けつ and in 尻もどき). Could you check Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon and Category:Japanese terms spelled with ateji‏‎ to make sure I didn't make any serious errors? Chuck Entz (talk) 06:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

道路

Module error bad! You fix? ;) Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Done. Fat-finger moment corrected.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Consensus on transliteration of headword inflections?

Hi,

I don't know how to phrase it, so that everyone understands. If you're still not sure about what I meant, you can ask me. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• My main concern is usability. With regard to the issues you have raised, I see two parts to this:
  1. Script legibility (perhaps the main stream of the BP thread)

     As noted elsewhere, as the EN WT, we can only safely assume that users can read the Latin alphabet. Consequently, any content not written in the Latin alphabet represents an impediment to usability. Adding parenthesized romanizations to already-cluttered headlines would just make things worse.

  2. Clutter in the headline

     As you and others brought up, the headlines of some entries can become very cluttered, even without adding in romanizations. Clutter presents another usability issue, in that cluttered content is harder to read and understand.

Does that accurately summarize your understanding of where things stand? I really don't want to be contrarian, my goal here is to make the EN WT as easy to use as possible -- and not just for me!  :) I'm aware that my own thinking sure isn't the only way to see things, and I also know that I often don't see other people's perspectives very well. Restating and asking others if the restatement matches their understanding can be one way to approach common ground.

• In terms of finding a workable solution, Chuck Entz pointed out that the inflections given in the headline are really only usable to people who already know the basics of inflection patterns for that language. However, as CodeCat and Benwing noted, entries in some languages don't usually have inflection tables at all, so the headline is currently the only place where inflected forms can be presented.

My suggestion, perhaps similar to Benwing's:

• Give romanizations for everything, but only present them as pop-up tooltips for inflected forms in headlines, to avoid visual clutter. Perhaps add some symbol or icon to hint to users that they should mouse-over, maybe like the ^(key) prompt for IPA transcriptions.

Would that work for you? If not, what changes would you suggest? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Clutteredness is not such a big deal as the problem with transliterations themselves. E.g., the term ле́карь (lékarʹ) would work OK, if users/editors are happy with wide headwords (or pop-ups). It will just make the headword very wide but there won't be discrepancies but a term, such as {[l|ru|кагебе́шник|tr=kagɛbɛ́šnik}} (phonetic respelling: кагэбэ́шник) with an irregular transliteration would require manual transliteration for each form - kagɛbɛ́šnika, kagɛbɛ́šniki, kagɛbɛ́šnica. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand -- do you mean you're concerned about irregularities in transcription, such as the こんにちは > *konnichi ha vs. konnichi wa, or the -ого > *-ogo vs. -ovo examples you gave in the BP thread?

If so, that seems surmountable, either by manual overrides, or by deriving the phonetic rules by which such irregularities occur, and then coding those rules into a module.

Also, romanization would conceivably be most useful to our user base if it were to use the Latin alphabet, of which the IPA vowel ɛ is not a member. Would you be amenable to spelling your examples as kagebéšnika, kagebéšniki, kagebéšnica, etc. instead?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I'm sorry, I never got back to you on this. The Russian transliteration debate is not my favourite topic and has caused me a lot of stress and frustration in the past. If you're still interested, I can explain the situation in details. Pls, let me know. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• I can sympathize. Sorry to hear it's been stressful, but don't worry about leaving things to sit for a while.  :)

Re: transliteration, my main perspective is one of usability for readers. As such, my ideal would be for every non-Latin-alphabet entry to include romanization for as much non-Latin-alphabet text as is feasible. I'm fine with things being manual if needed; I place no requirement for this all to happen immediately. So far as we know, Wiktionary isn't disappearing or closing down anytime soon, so we can take our time.

Coding in automated solutions could be a good way to save time and work, but then we'd have to make sure that the algorithm fully accounted for all corner cases. Is there any automated IPA generation for Russian entries? Could that code be leveraged for transliteration?

(I ask out of curiosity, not urgency. :) ) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

There are already automated modules for Russian transliterations and pronunciations. The trouble is with exceptions.

Russian is 95-99% phonetic. Cyrillic letter "е" is transliterated as "je" (word initial, between vowels and after ь and ъ. It's "e" after all consonants. Consonants, which can have palatalised equivalents - b,p,v,f,d,t,z,s,g,k,l,m,n,r are NORMALLY softened/palatalised in front of "е" (and have no effect on other consonants (soft or hard)), e.g. небо is /ˈnʲebə/. It would be cumbersome to transliterate each occurrence of "е" as "'e" or "je" and also rare, e.g. "n'ébo" or "njébo". A number of loanwords (far from all, it's quite unpredictable) have no palatalisation, e.g. стенд, which is pronounced as "стэнд" ([stɛnt]), pls. see the entry. No other symbol fits this situation, so ɛ is used in such cases. Few dictionaries describe hard pronunciations of "е". Russian textbooks/dictionaries sometimes respell words with "э" (e). Russian dictionaries don't use transliterations, since Cyrillic is considered easy to learn, so an in-house method is used here. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Modules already cater for adjective, pronouns, numeral endings -ogo as -ovo. To work with e/je problem module data would be required with lists of words with exceptions but it's complicated, since there are derivations and inflected forms. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

WT:RU TR describes this well (heavily criticised). I don't see any problem with usability, as the info is available. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

A couple of templates to try

I've had the idea for these for a while, but only just now took the time to reverse-engineer User:Wyang's version of a similar template and make them for myself. You subst: them, and they basically fill out the {{ja-readingcat}} and {{ja-readascat}} templates for you with information that's in the category name. The one for {{ja-readingcat}} ({{jrcez}}) takes up to 2 optional parameters for the reading type, but the one for {{ja-readascat}} ({{jraez}}) doesn't need anything. I hope you find them useful. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm intrigued. Am I correct in understanding that you'd use these shortcut templates to help create the various cat pages? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes. For Category:Japanese terms spelled with kanji read as はつ, instead of {{ja-readascat|はつ}} you would do {{subst:jraez}}, and for Category:Japanese terms spelled with 撥 read as はつ, instead of {{ja-readingcat|撥|はつ|on}} you would do {{subst:jrcez|on}}. {{jraez}} takes no parameters, so you can just paste it in without having to type anything specific to the category. {{subst:jrcez}} would require pasting it in and typing in the reading type(s). I keep a text file open next to the browser window with pieces of text to copypaste into the categories, so for me, there's basically no typing at all except for the reading types. It's only a minor convenience, but it can be useful if you're doing several categories at a time. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

幸

Something you did caused this entry to appear in Category:Japanese, an invalid category. Could you fix it if possible, or notify someone who can? —CodeCat 22:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• It was this POS: 幸#Adverb. I'd used the abbreviation adv, which apparently the template didn't recognize. Odd that the non-recognition should cause the page to be added to such a category. I added adv as a valid abbreviation in this edit to the {{ja-pos}} template, and now it appears to be working correctly -- 幸#Japanese is no longer categorizing oddly.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Sort order on こうせつ

Hello, Eirikr. I was wondering about the logic underlying the order of entries on こうせつ. It doesn't appear to be by radical or stroke count, and obviously it can't be by pronunciation. In terms of frequency, it seems to me that 公設 and 交接 are more frequent than any of the other uses, but that's just an impression; it doesn't reflect careful measurement nor reliable sources. My own logic in sorting was to put the words that have existing Wiktionary entries first, and the red links later. Is there some other preferred or commonly used sort order for such pages? (If you respond, you can do so here, since I don't really use my Wiktionary talk page.) Thanks, and happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 23:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Hi, sorry for any confusion. I generally order according to the search results in my e-copy of Daijirin, since that's one of my resources to hand that tends to have pretty comprehensive lists of kanji compounds, and it orders by radical. Partway through creating the list in the wikitext editing pane, I ran across some other compounds with the こうせつ reading that weren't in the main list in Daijirin, and I added those into the editing pane (currently items 7-10) -- but I realize now that I didn't put them into the list in any sensible sort order. I apologize for that. I'll re-sort momentarily. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

PS: I've just spent some time looking more into how Daijirin orders entries -- apparently their collation is by gross character stroke count, not radical, such that 高 comes after 降 but before 講. I've followed suit for now on the こうせつ page, since I've historically mostly used Daijirin's ordering. Let me know if that's a problem in any way. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Cnilep Also (on the theory you might see this here quickest), where are you getting the "copula" sense for 交接? That's not listed in either Daijirin or Shogakukan. Nor, indeed, in my dead-tree copy of Shinmeikai. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation of Daijirin's sort order. Regarding 交接 as "copula", my immediate source is Kenkyusha's リーダーズ＋プラスV3 (Reader's Plus Dictionary). I also have vague memories of seeing it in some works of grammar, but other words such as 繋辞 or コプラ may be more common. Cnilep (talk) 00:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Interesting, thanks for that. Shogakukan's 国語大辞典 doesn't list any "copula" definition in the JA-JA entry for 交接. The 和英辞典 entry for copula lists JA translations of 連結物(れんけつぶつ) (renketsubutsu) for a generic copula, and 連結詞(れんけつし) (renketsushi) or 繋辞(けいじ) (keiji) for the grammatical copula. Daijirin does include コピュラ (kopyura) as an alt for コプラ (kopura), and in my e-copy of リーダーズ＋プラス英和辞典, the entry for copula lists JA translations of 繋合詞(けいごうし) (keigōshi), 連辞(れんじ) (renji), and 繋辞(けいじ) (keiji) for the grammatical senses. A second sense marked as ［法］ states 《男女の》 交接, but that apparently refers to relations in a legal sense, and is not the grammatical copula -- any chance your eye skipped a line? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Going back to it a third time, it appears that I was somehow mixing the (文法) and (法) lines. Hmm, now I begin to doubt those hazy memories of my own reading – never the best source for information about one's second language. Cnilep (talk) 00:50, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

No worries. I've been a professional translator for a while now, and that kind of visual parsing hiccup is quite common. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

貪り食う

This shows as having 貪 read as むさぼ, but I notice that 貪 gives its only kun reading as むさぼる. Is this むさぼ + り or むさぼる that has り merging with る? Chuck Entz (talk) 00:12, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

• Ya, it was missing a few details. Should be good now. Thanks! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Japanese categorisations

Hi,

Do you think it's possible to make a Japanese version of Module:zh-cat? I find it time-consuming having to add hiragana to each category, so I often omit adding cats. If there is an automatic categorisation, then {{ja-new}} and {{ja new}} could use a |cat= parameter for accelerated entry creations. Also, do you think it's OK to add {{ja-pron}} (with kana params) by default? These templates could use enhancements - synonyms, alternative forms, multiple parts of speech, verb/adjective inflections (with verb types).--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have no idea what either Module:zh-cat or Template:zh-cat do, so I really couldn't say anything about the feasibility of an analog for Japanese.
• I've never used either {{ja-new}} or {{ja new}}, and I'm afraid I'm not familiar with what they do or how they work.
• I think {{ja-pron}} should probably be added to every entry that isn't a soft redirect.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Module:zh-cat uses selected sort keys, currently sorting entries by radicals. If a Japanese equivalent would be smart to always use kana, not kanji and convert katakana to hiragana - that's all, that would be great. The {{ja-new}} and {{ja new}} are accelerated entry creation templates. I am able to produce a lot of East Asian entries thanks to them - they are great time savers and are easy to use. I forgot to say, I meant inserting {{ja-pron}} in any new entry, even if they don't contain the pitch accent, by default, would that still be a good idea? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

hyprocide

Regarding this addition of yours to WT:WE, it appears to be a proprietary name, Hyprocide™, which is an alternative trade name for Endo-Spor Plus™. According to this 510(k) Summary, it is a "liquid chemical germicide contain[ing] 7.35% hydrogen peroxide and 0.23% peracetic acid" as its active ingredients, and is intended for use as "a chemical disinfecting and sterilization solution for use on flexible lensed endoscopy instruments, inhalation therapy equipment and instruments and materials that cannot be heat sterilized." As for the name's etymology, the closest precedent in terms of spelling that I can find is the Ancient Greek Template:l/grc (Romanised hyppro), which is a Thessalian variant of ὑποπρό (hupopró) or ὑπὸ πρό (hupò pró), a compound preposition meaning "just before"; the sense doesn't really fit, so the first element is more probably an informal contraction-cum-blend of hyper- + pro-, used as more-or-less generic intensifiers; the second element is, of course, just -cide (“killer”), as in germicide, biocide, etc. I don't think the trade name meets CFI, so it probably won't be added; still, I hope this information tells you what you wanted to know. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 11:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! It's mentioned in one of the IT Crowd episodes, specifically episode 12 of season 2. I hadn't heard the term before and was curious about its origins. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Something about a muffin, right? I've seen them all but don't really remember that bit. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 23:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ya, Moss smells a muffin and goes off on a litany of the chemicals he smells. "Hyprocide! And it's not even listed in the table of contents!" It sets up the scene towards the end where he smells Jen's tea and asks why it has Rohypnol in it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I decided to quote the scene; I cited it at Citations:Jolly Roger. According to Springfield! Springfield!, what we've thought is hyprocide is actually hyperoside, but I'm sceptical that S!S! is right, given that the -e- definitely gets dropped in Moss's pronunciation and S!S! has "You won't believe what happened last night. // Wait till I tell you what happened to me." where the episode clearly has "Wait until I tell you what happened to me last night… // Well, wait till I tell you what’s just happened to me…". Also, I have no idea what [ˈiːbɹɪəm] ("ebrium") is; the most pertinent-seeming hit I got was this typo for erbium (forms of the Latin ēbrius predominate on Google Books). It could all be down to mispronunciation and/or fanciful nonce coinages. I don't know. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Fundamental theorem of Wiktionary

You have expressed interest in my Fundamental theorem of Wiktionary. I have laid it out at User:Purplebackpack89#Fundamental theorem of Wiktionary Purplebackpack89 21:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)