User talk:Dragonoid76

Welcome!

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
• A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
• If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! Prahlad balaji (talk) 15:34, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Resources

Hi, I know it's quite late, but I finally found a good resource for finding verb classes - https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/fabricius/. You can cite it using {{R:Fabricius}}. Prahlad balaji (talk) 00:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Help

Hi, sorry to bother you, but could you add support for irregular adverbial participles (such as போய் from போ) at Module:ta-conj? Thank you so much! Prahlad balaji (talk) 21:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

It's actually there, it should be the `inf=` parameter. See போ now and let me know if this seems right. Dragonoid76 (talk) 06:41, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I don't think it's quite right. The infinitive should be போக and the adverbial participle should be போய். Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:34, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Ahh I understand, I added support for that in the module, does போ (pō) look right now Dragonoid76 (talk) 17:40, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, it works now. By the way, where did you learn Lua? Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you, but also, can you please add support for ā and ī-stems? Both ā and ī-stem nouns have plurals ending in -க்கள் (for example, ரோஜாக்கள் instead of *ரோஜாகள்), and ī-stem nouns also attach the dative and benefactive to the lemma form (so, for example, தேனீக்கு instead of தேனீயுக்கு). Thank you so much. :) Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The template is also giving some incorrect results - it says, for example, that the accusative of பக்கம் is பக்கத்துயை when it should be பக்கத்தை. Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

This issue should be fixed now. Dragonoid76 (talk) 18:29, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

This should be fixed now too. Dragonoid76 (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

No problem, I just kind of learned it from seeing other modules since I already knew a few programming languages :) Dragonoid76 (talk) 19:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I have made a list of declension patterns that I know of at User:Prahlad balaji/Tamil declension, if you are interested. Since I don't know Lua, you can use these rules to add to the declension code if you wish to. Prahlad balaji (talk) 23:34, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Plurals

Hi, it seems I can't specify plurals manually in mainspace - [1]. I tried to specify the plural as வாத்துக்கள் but it gave வாத்துகள். Any ideas on why this happens? Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

{{ta-decl|வாத்து|வாத்துக்கள்|வாத்தே|வாத்து}}} this seems to work as intended? You have to provide all 4 arguments for this method to work. Dragonoid76 (talk) 17:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much. You are a great help. :) Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

It works great, but when I enter these arguments there are some extraneous parentheses showing up, like so: () Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:05, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

{{ta-decl|வாத்து|வாத்துக்கள்|வாத்தே|வாத்து|type=none}} this is fixed now, thanks. Dragonoid76 (talk) 17:26, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

You can provide a type even to templates that you've added the four forms for and it'll display it (like specifying "type=u" or "type=ṭu" or "type=root"), or you can say "type=none" to display nothing at all. Dragonoid76 (talk) 17:27, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Another issue (sorry if I keep bothering you): It says the locative 2 plural of most nouns has a doubled ள் when it actually shouldn't, e.g. *வாத்துக்கள்ளிடம் (*vāttukkaḷḷiṭam) when it's actually வாத்துக்களிடம் (vāttukkaḷiṭam). Could you please fix that? Thanks! Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

This was a typo and is now fixed, thanks. Dragonoid76 (talk) 00:26, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I have added one final class to User:Prahlad balaji/Tamil declension; please do check that out and update the module if you wish. I also highly recommend reading this if anything is unclear (chapters 2 and 3). Best, Prahlad balaji (talk) 02:00, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I also found some errors in Template:ta-conj-auto that I have listed at the bottom of User:Prahlad balaji/Tamil declension. It is supposed to be for Tamil declension but I figured putting some other issues I found at the bottom wouldn't hurt. Sorry for bothering you -- Prahlad balaji (talk) 20:40, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

The gerunds and non-finite forms in general need a lot of work; they should basically resemble this. Thanks for letting me know about this one, though. The table in general needs a thorough refresh, and I'll tend to it soon, if nobody else does first, when I have some time! Dragonoid76 (talk) 07:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I have also listed the errors at the documentation of the ta-conj module so that more people can see it. I've also replied to your message on my talk page, about Tamil inflection. Thank you for your work, it is truly amazing what you've done. :) Prahlad balaji (talk) 16:29, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I fixed the gerunds issue. You can now use the parameter gerund_2 to specify manually. The Tamil noun module still needs to be updated, though - see User:Prahlad balaji/Tamil declension and my response on my talk page. Prahlad balaji (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Sanskrit verbs

Here are some links that you may find useful: https://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/grammar.html#roots and https://archive.org/details/practicalgrammar00moni. I too have been designing a module for Sanskrit verbs but it seems you have also been wanting to do so, so here you go. Good luck on your Sanskrit project ! -- Prahlad balaji 2 (talk) 06:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the Sanskrit verbs. I am glad someone has continued the project! —*i̯óh₁n̥C^[5] 08:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a first, but we now have a non-Devanagari Sanskrit conjugation, for ලිඛති. There's still a lot of checking to do of the spelling, i.e. where one puts the ZWJ in, but that seems to be my job. Thank you for making the extension to other scripts easy to achieve. --RichardW57 (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

ददाति

You've provided parts from the wrong verb for the non-finite forms! Possibly an interrupted edit. --RichardW57m (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Fixedǃ Thanks Dragonoid76 (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

why are so many sanskrit verbs only having past, imperfective and present now? i swear there were more earlier, did you do this? Cement Licker (talk) 11:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Cement Licker Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2023/August#Sanskrit Lemmas. They exist, but they're now considered derivations from the root and not the present tense verb since they're often formed completely different from the root than the present tense (e.g. अभूत् (abhūt) is its own page now rather than showing up in भवति (bhavati), they both linked to in भू (bhū)) Dragonoid76 (talk) 23:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

thankyou:D Cement Licker (talk) 15:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Module Errors

Whenever you work on a module that has transclusions, always check CAT:E for a few days afterwards and take care of any module errors either by fixing the entry or fixing the module. The errors in the entry may not be your fault, but the people who made them won't know about the module errors, and those of us that check CAT:E don't know how to fix things- so they're your responsibility. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the notice, I've taken care of all the affected pages and updated the documentation. Can you remove Template:sa-conj from that page now? Dragonoid76 (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

CAT:E is populated automatically. No one can remove anything from the category except by fixing the errors. When there are multiple steps in the transclusion it may take a while for edits to the module to make their way into the entries, though one can speed things up by doing null edits. At any rate, CAT:E is clear now. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 00:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Could you check CAT:E again? Thanks. 98.170.164.88 02:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

See ईष्टे, कषति and प्रुष्णोति for failed aorist conjugation that started when you last edited Module:sa-verb/data Chuck Entz (talk) 15:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

You really need to fix Template:sa-conj/documentation: Module:parameters now checks for duplicate parameter use, and it's seeing all of your examples as using |lemma= twice (I have no idea why it's not throwing the same error in the entries). It really looks bad when the examples of the proper way to use the template all have errors, and your template is the only thing in CAT:E at the moment. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz fixed. But this was working before, so something changed with alias_of that broke my code. Dragonoid76 (talk) 23:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure it was working before, which is why I took the time to mention that things had changed- I've been cleaning up a lot of errors lately caused by Module:parameters suddenly noticing irregularities with parameter usage. I don't know Lua well enough to do more than guess at the causes in specific cases, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Your “fix” has flooded CAT:E with errors. I've reverted it. — Fenakhay ^{(حيطي · مساهماتي)} 00:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

The cause of the problem is invocations having both |lemma= and |2=. Such cases are typical of documentation, talk pages and sandboxes. I think the use of alias_of is too clever to work, and one should revert to manual handling after the Module:parameters has done its work. I think there should be a design note (ideally public, perhaps even in the documentation page of {{sa-conj}}, and not just in Dragonoid76's private materials) on what is used for what in the various cases built of:

• |lemma= present/absent;
• |2= absent, Roman script, Devanagari script or other script; and
• script of PAGENAME.

For example, the rules should imply a preference

|lemma= > PAGENAME > Roman script |2=

for determining the script of the oputput. I can imagine someone giving verb form parameters in Devanagari for an inflection table in the Kannada script, though I don't recommend it. And FYI, I've got the module working to give inflections in the Sinhala script, though there may be issues with script-specific idiosyncrasies in consonant clusters. All I had to do was supply the missing modules. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@RichardW57 good points, I will get some better documentation up for this when I have some time. Dragonoid76 (talk) 04:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

but also yes, what you described is correct AFAIK. I took that whole parameters scheme from Module:sa-decl. Dragonoid76 (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Nouns in -vāṃs

I think you misentered the data into Module:sa-decl/data. I'm getting masculine/neuter vocative singular ending sin -an/-at, whereas Whitney says it's -van/-vat. The same goes for related forms, where your tables have the 'v' completely dropping as opposed to vocalising. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

See Module_talk:sa-decl#Vocative_Errors for progress. --RichardW57 (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

@RichardW57 Can you point out a page with this issue? It seems like चकृवांस् (cakṛvāṃs) looks fine. Dragonoid76 (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

To view the old problem, 'preview' a pre-December version of Module:sa-decl/data with that same page, and you will see the v-less (and u-less) forms that I complained of. Thank you for checking that my edits have not introduced fresh errors. --RichardW57 (talk) 20:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

नकुल

Herpestes ichneumon is an African species. w:Mammals of India lists only species of genus Urva as being Indian. The Bengal mongoose is from genus Herpestes, but is now rare. The appearance and many of the habits of all the species are similar, so Sanskrit might have had an umbrella term that covered all of these species. I'd be happy to look at any references that shed more light on this. DCDuring (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring Monier-Williams defines it as Viverra Ichneumon, which I understood from https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Herpestes_ichneumon to be a synonym for "Herpestes ichneumon". But if this is incorrect, feel free to fix it. Dragonoid76 (talk) 23:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Obsolete information. Unfortunately Wiktionary Sanskrit entries have a lot of obsolete taxonomic names. Taxonomy has always been fluid, now more than ever due to genetic research. Species of genus Urva were all formerly in genus Herpestes. I need to do a little more work to be sure about the Bengal mongoose. DCDuring (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for this correction! Dragonoid76 (talk) 02:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Phonological History of Hindustani

I've been working on a draft of Phonological History of Hindustani, a page for Wikipedia which outlines all the many sound changes that occur between Vedic Sanskrit and Hindi with lots of examples at every stage. I'm notifying people who I think might be interested in reading/editing this!

(Notifying AryamanA, Atitarev, Benwing2, Smettems, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta, Msasag, Svartava, Getsnoopy, Rishabhbhat, AryamanA, Bhagadatta, Svartava, JohnC5, Kutchkutch, Getsnoopy, Rishabhbhat, RichardW57, Exarchus): Dragonoid76 (talk) 03:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dragonoid76 Interesting, thanks Exarchus (talk) 16:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Prakrit

Hi. If you aren't already aware of it, if a Prakrit term's lect is not specified in sources and/or unknown to the editor or if the Prakrit term is given as belonging to a lect not the direct ancestor of the language whose entry is being edited, you can use {{inh|hi|pra|[TERM]}} rather than {{inh|hi|pra-sau|[TERM]}}. For verbs, per convention, it is acceptable to list a descendant of say Hindi on a Maharastri Prakrit page, and conversely for etymologies as well: see चाटना (cāṭnā), for example (thus avoiding the need of "reconstructing" a Sauraseni variant caṭṭedi). Svartava (talk) 18:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Svartava Hey I noticed a lot of Hindi entries vacillate between "Sauraseni Prakrit" and "Prakrit" as a source, so I was generally doing the same. Good to know. Is this the standard practice and documented somewhere?

It seems like CDIAL reconstructs only Maharashtri rather than Shauraseni, so I feel like without this "reconstruction" of Shauraseni we will never have Hindi terms inherited from pra-sau. In some cases I've been doing something like {{inh|hi|pra-sau|caṭṭeï|caṭṭedi}} so that it shows up as caṭṭedi but redirects to caṭṭeï, which seems like a compromise solution. Dragonoid76 (talk) 22:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Dragonoid76: Yes, this is the standard practise but it's not like there are no attested Sauraseni terms: see CAT:Sauraseni Prakrit (and the Hindi descendants of the terms here can definitely have pra-sau, thus the Sauraseni Prakrit category wouldn't be empty even if much less populated than the Prakrit category). Before the merging of the Prakrits, Hindi etymologies always used to show "Sauraseni Prakrit" so that's why majority of the old entries have it.

Regarding CDIAL: in most cases, it doesn't mention the lect, so I avoid labelling those terms Maharastri because, for example, the -aï ending of verbs is also shown in Ardhamagadhi Prakrit. Svartava (talk) 04:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Please be careful when editing/creating Prakrit entries! Just cleaned up a couple of yours, have a look in your mentions. Cheers. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 05:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@AryamanA Thanks for the cleanup.

Your point about Munda origins is interesting. In the literature I've read, they all seem to attribute substrate-origin or unknown-origin roots to Munda. Do you have more-recent literature that argues that such etymologies are incorrect? Dragonoid76 (talk) 19:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

For the moment, I'm content using {{unk}} rather than deriving etymologies from Munda (or Dravidian), even if CDIAL calls it out. Maybe we have a policy of making a note of the possible-Munda origin? Or should we rather not mention it at all Dragonoid76 (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Dragonoid76: I'm glad to get to introduce you to this! So, you have probably seen works by Kuiper and Witzel (some of which get ref'd in Turner) that claim Munda origins for a lot of unexplainable vocabulary. The problem is that this loaning would have had to happen very early in order to achieve the spread that it did; in some cases, we have supposed Munda loans with Dardic descendants. To really be sure about this loaning, (1) we need to be able to reconstruct Proto-Munda well, and as it was a couple thousand years ago at least, and (2) we need to be sure Vedic Sanskrit in the Punjab had contact with Munda speakers. Neither of these assumptions feel secure anymore; check how uncertain Felix Rau's reconstruction of Proto-Munda is and his chronology of its arrival in India, and John Peterson's work on the linguistic spread of Munda, particularly how its grammatical influence seems to be limited to Eastern IA. The other thing is, Kuiper had no idea how to reconstruct Proto-Munda and just throws in whatever looks vaguely similar phonologically.

There are definitely some secure Munda loans (cf. Marathi जेवणे (jevṇe, “to eat”)) but these seem to be limited in spread to never reach the northwest end of the Indo-Aryan range, and we have Munda reconstructions to go off of.

I would definitely still mention Munda etymologies but do not use {{der}} or {{bor}} for them, instead use {{ncog}} and try to find a Proto-Munda form if possible. If we don't include mentions of these etymologies, some random future editor may try to well-meaningly but incorrectly add them. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 20:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, for *𑀪𑀺𑀝𑁆 (*bhiṭ) specifically I think the Indo-Aryan etymology is highly likely given a couple parallels. This is not always the case, but we should bear in mind that substrata other than Munda are possible: we know of the isolates Burushaski, Kusunda, and Nihali, and Masica posited a "Language X" in the Gangetic plain to explain substrate agricultural words there in {{R:hi:Masica:1979}}. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 20:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@AryamanA Thanks! Will keep in mind in the future :) Dragonoid76 (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@AryamanA Can I ask where you found that Turner suggests अभिवृत् (abhivṛt) for *𑀪𑀺𑀝𑁆 (*bhiṭ)? I don't this being called out in the CDIAL references. Dragonoid76 (talk) 23:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

[2] [3] on these pages. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 05:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)