Module talk:sa-decl

This new module

@Aryamanarora, I'm glad you like this, and I hope you'll help me now or when this gets closer to production. I'm currently testing this at User:JohnC5/Sandbox4. Out of curiosity, how did you notice I was creating this? Regardless, I think this should be a massive improvement because it should not only be able to handle the Vedic pitch accent but also be able to function in any script as long as a transliterators are provide to and from SLP1 as seen here. I'm currently building infrastructure, but hopefully soon I'll be able to start adding declensions from Whitney. —JohnC5 23:41, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I'll try to gain some Lua proficiency over the weekend, but for now I can try to help with the data submodule :) (I don't have like any time for Wiktionary on weekdays anymore) I saw it in recent changes among the major edits. The accent handling is really great! Keep up the good Sanskrit work! —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 16:12, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5 This is amazing now that it's fully operational! Like seriously, not even this is as good as this module for nouns. When do you want to start replacing the old templates with this? —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 20:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Is there a reason why आम्रेडित (āmreḍita) is transcribed everywhere as "āmreḍita", except in the declension table where it's "āmreḍhita"? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:42, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Barytonesis: diff —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 21:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: Thanks for catching that error in my module! So this module is not fully operational: I haven't finished the consonant stems by any means and this is not appropriate for use with adjectives yet. However, for the nominal declension shown on my test page, those may be rolled out. I'm glad you like it! I wish I had more time at school to finish it up. —JohnC5 01:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Still mostly operational ain't bad. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 01:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: There's a problem with the category the template/module adds at आगस् (āgas); I believe there's a missing space. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam, JohnC5: I located and fixed the problem. — Eru·tuon 21:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Module errors

@Erutuon I think I edited the wrong module somehow, sorry about that. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 11:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Formatting

@JohnC5, AryamanA, where is this new formatting for the top example coming from? I much prefer the old formatting of the bottom, which is cleaner and inline with other project declension tables.

Masculine a-stem declension of sa-decl
Nom. sg.	अयस्कारः (ayaskāraḥ)
Gen. sg.	अयस्कारस्य (ayaskārasya)
	Singular	Dual	Plural
Nominative	अयस्कारः (ayaskāraḥ)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्काराः (ayaskārāḥ)
Vocative	अयस्कार (ayaskāra)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्काराः (ayaskārāḥ)
Accusative	अयस्कारम् (ayaskāram)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्कारान् (ayaskārān)
Instrumental	अयस्कारेन (ayaskārena)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारैः (ayaskāraiḥ)
Dative	अयस्काराय (ayaskārāya)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारेभ्यः (ayaskārebhyaḥ)
Ablative	अयस्कारात् (ayaskārāt)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारेभ्यः (ayaskārebhyaḥ)
Genitive	अयस्कारस्य (ayaskārasya)	अयस्कारयोः (ayaskārayoḥ)	अयस्कारानाम् (ayaskārānām)
Locative	अयस्कारे (ayaskāre)	अयस्कारयोः (ayaskārayoḥ)	अयस्कारेषु (ayaskāreṣu)

--Victar (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: It's coming from this very module. It's way more informative (it shows both Vedic and Classical forms, and can handle accents) and useful (it detects the stem automatically in most cases). —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA, I have no problem with the content just the formatting. I think it's too ornate and unstreamlined. I also liked being able to see the nom.sg. and gen.sg. at a glance. Personally, I'd like to see it reverted closer to the appearance of the original module. --Victar (talk) 23:41, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

If we're going to completely reformat the Sanskrit declension tables, let's do so in unison with the formatting of some of the new tables:

Masculine a-stem declension of अयस्कार (ayaskāra)

	singular	dual	plural
nominative	अयस्कारः (ayaskāraḥ)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्काराः (ayaskārāḥ), -आसः (-āsaḥ)¹
vocative	अयस्कार (ayaskāra)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्काराः (ayaskārāḥ), -आसः (-āsaḥ)¹
accusative	अयस्कारम् (ayaskāram)	अयस्कारौ (ayaskārau)	अयस्कारान् (ayaskārān)
instrumental	अयस्कारेण (ayaskāreṇa)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारैः (ayaskāraiḥ), -एभिः (-ebhiḥ)¹
dative	अयस्काराय (ayaskārāya)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारेभ्यः (ayaskārebhyaḥ)
ablative	अयस्कारात् (ayaskārāt)	अयस्काराभ्याम् (ayaskārābhyām)	अयस्कारेभ्यः (ayaskārebhyaḥ)
genitive	अयस्कारस्य (ayaskārasya)	अयस्कारयोः (ayaskārayoḥ)	अयस्काराणाम् (ayaskārāṇām)
locative	अयस्कारे (ayaskāre)	अयस्कारयोः (ayaskārayoḥ)	अयस्कारेषु (ayaskāreṣu)

--Victar (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: I appreciate your opinion, but I feel this is much cleaner. This layout falls in line with the formatting used in our Russian, Ancient Greek, and Arabic inflection tables which have been around for a while now. —*i̯óh₁nC^[5] 01:32, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I find the current table formatting messy, oversized, and very difficult to read, and with all due respect, formatting choices that affect everyone, like the redesigning the declension tables, it should be a community-wide decision. --Victar (talk) 01:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: The main issue with the previous layout was that you got gigantic cells containing multiple terms which overflowed the line and were impossible to read. This not only solves that issue but has the added advantage of allowing users to effectively read the table entirely in Devanagari or entirely in Latin script without having to wade through interleaved terms and transliterations. I believe yours is the minority opinion on this matter and that the inline display is only used widely because it is the easiest to implement. We can put this to a vote, I suppose, but I'm not currently persuaded. —*i̯óh₁nC^[5] 02:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I haven't done any work on Sanskrit, but I like the greyed-out transliterations on a separate line and dislike the overly wide div-enclosed table. vsSwitcher, which is used in the second table^↑ in this section, has an advantage over NavFrame: it allows the table to adjust to the size of its contents. — Eru·tuon 02:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I would be happy to start a public discussion on it. --Victar (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: I too very much like the resizing functionality of the vsSwitcher table over the NavFrame table, and would support its usage going forward, however on a single line per row. --Victar (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: I agree it should be switched to vsSwitcher, definitely, but JohnC5 makes a great point about the separate Devanagari and Latin lines. IMO the Latin script gets in the way when I'm trying to find a particular form, and I'm sure someone unfamiliar will Devanagari will say the same about the Devanagari script. Also, it's really wide with the old layout. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 03:59, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

To clarify what are the features of vsSwitcher you're seeking? Is it the styling or the width or something else? I've always enjoyed the functionality of vsSwitcher but never the appearance. —*i̯óh₁nC^[5] 10:04, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

The virtue of the vsSwitcher table that it's just a pure table, so its width fits its content. Apparently divs, used by the NavFrame apparatus, naturally take up all the available width of the content area, without regard for what's inside them. (I recall us discussing this issue with regard to the Ancient Greek inflection tables.) So the only recourse is to hardwire their width. Then, the divs-and-table combination is usually too big or too small for the content. Another nice thing is that vsSwitcher allows you to decide exactly which table rows will display in the expanded and collapsed versions of the table. I don't know how to do that with NavFrame. — Eru·tuon 11:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: I suppose if you're reading left to right, but when I go to these tables, I'm reading top to bottom, because the singular forms are the most important, IMO. --Victar (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: Couldn't that be fixed with .NavFrame div { display: table-cell; }? --Victar (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: Interesting idea. It does work when I try it in the F12 tab of my browser. I don't know if it would be suitable for all instances of NavFrame. Nevertheless, I like the simplicity of a table rather than three divs plus a table. — Eru·tuon 20:36, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Don't mind me too much, but I prefer the "immaculate white" background of the old one; the new one appears slightly greyer. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:15, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I too. It's straightforward and clean. --Victar (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I like the gray because it stands out from the background. (btw, the old-style decl table is wrong for genitive plural). —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)}

@AryamanA, the gen.pl. is the same in all tables. --Victar (talk) 22:43, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: No, the new one has अयस्काराणाम् (ayaskārāṇām), the old one has अयस्कारानाम् (ayaskārānām). The retroflexion of न (na) has to be manually specified in the old one. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 22:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I missed the -ṇ-. Yeah, no one is arguing that the new template isn't improved in functionality, just questioning the formatting. --Victar (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: I converted it to vsSwitcher. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 03:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA, looks like the column headers are out of alignment. --Victar (talk) 03:16, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: Oh, I missed that. Fixed now. (I copied it over from MOD:hi-decl/noun, so I didn't notice). —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 03:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Victar How does it look now? The width is no longer hardcoded. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 18:00, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: Could you explain what you mean by "unaligned" in this edit summary and give an example? — Eru·tuon 21:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: Didn't get your ping. See बाल (bāla). The adjective declension tables were of varying widths when collapsed which is not aesthetically pleasing. My change doesn't affect the expanded table. (Also, a {{sa-adj-auto}} should probably be made since adjectives are declined like nouns in Sanskrit). —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:05, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: (Oops, I sent the ping to your old username.) I see what you mean. It is ugly for the tables to be different sizes. I'm not enthusiastic about hardcoded sizes, though. They're only needed when the tables are in a row like that. Perhaps a parameter for width would be a compromise. In other cases the browser is much better at determining the optimal size of the table. However, the tables do seem to look better with it, because without it the cells don't have enough left and right padding. (Ideally cell padding would be added in MediaWiki:Common.css. It is very verbose to add it in the HTML source code, unless the deprecated cellpadding attribute is used.) — Eru·tuon 05:09, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

deprecating the old templates e.g. Template:sa-decl-noun-a-m

(Notifying AryamanA, Bhagadatta, SodhakSH, JohnC5, Kutchkutch, Inqilābī, Getsnoopy): Any objections if I replace the old templates with the new ones based on this module in cases where the module supports the declension? Benwing2 (talk) 02:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Yes, they're ok to be replaced. On a related note: I just saw that User:SodhakSH pinged you for creating a module/template for consonant stem nouns. The pitch accent is not "on the same vowel" always. I'll provide the info regarding the accent and other later if/when you start working on it. Right now the declension is manually added for consonant stem nouns. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 02:22, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta Yup, I left a message at Module talk:sa-utilities about the accent and declension. I would be grateful for any info you could provide. Benwing2 (talk) 02:31, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Vocative Errors

(Notifying AryamanA, Bhagadatta, Svartava, JohnC5, Kutchkutch, Inqilābī, Getsnoopy, Rishabhbhat, Dragonoid76): In addition to the error in the inflection of nouns and adjectives in -वांस, there's also an error in the rather rare vocative singular of neuters in -इन्, namely being returned as -इनि instead of -इ/-इन्, as though -in/i were misread as -ini during data entry. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done --RichardW57 (talk) 10:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)