User:Sarri.greek/questions

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Ancient Greek

fonts

Problem with ancient greek greekfonts+prosody.
How can one ASK Unicode to creat new fonts? @Unicode sarri.greek (talk) 09:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

audio

moved to: User:Sarri.greek/audio

binominals

Template:taxlink I need for πίσος: Pisum sativum (plant's seed: pea, μπιζέλι, αρακάς)
trials forPisum sativum Model as by User:DCDuring at ἄρακος

• {{taxlink|Lathyrus annuus|species|noshow=1|ver=170109}}

Careful: there IS a Pisum sativum, so they do not want me to make taxlink. sarri.greek (talk) 14:39, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

answer by DCDuring

Exactly. It's not the end of the world if an entry is in the cleanup category for a few hours, or days, or weeks. The most important thing is to use {{taxlink}} to get the entry into the taxonomic entry system. If you aren't pretty sure you have the right taxonomic rank (eg, species, subspecies, family, clade, superorder), then you're better off to omit it and let me do the research. Wikispecies is not always the best source. I use a core of about 15 sources, with many more for special areas. DCDuring (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @DCDuring:. I am following your work (very impressive). I am always uncertain of binominals because I get them from old dictionaries for Anc.Greek written by grammarians, not naturalists. I DO check them with google.

At species.wikimedia I see section: Vernacular translations. There are many greek terms (corresponding to latin) which are NOT vernacular, used in greek university for geoponics. They are quasi-ancient, most of them are calques. Are you interested in such greek words, or should I not add them? sarri.greek (talk) 18:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

You are right to be skeptical of old dictionaries for taxonomic names. It's fine that we have the old names as synonyms, but we try to have the current one.

We have both true vernacular and academic terms as "vernacular". They are really vernacular just because they are not scientific Latin. The academic names may be the only ones for non-notable species that are not native to a given language area or are not accessible to and distinguishable by the unaided senses (like microbes, species of brown passerine birds or little brown mushrooms (LBMs)).

If you want to check whether a given name is current, for plants a very good source is to be found through Rosa at The Plant List; for mammals, See {{R:Mammals}}; for fish {{R:Fishbase}}; for marine organisms in generall: {{R:WoRMS}}. Fishbase also has a very large number of various kinds of vernacular names. Checking will slow you down. OTOH, if I check other entries may also get the benefit. DCDuring (talk) 19:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

categories

archaic

lb archaic = Category:Greek terms with archaic senses - Greek terms that are no longer in general use but still encountered in older literature and still sometimes used for special effect

• so how do we label words which ARE archaic, but in very frequent use? (ο υπογράφων) They are not like e.g. the English 'thy'. We use them every day.
  • Closest equivalent I would use is 'formal' Rossyxan (talk) 12:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Yes, @Rossyxan agreed, it IS formal. And we need one more word, to say it is also, ancient: I feel, for greek lang, it is important for readers to know, when a word is ancient. sarri.greek (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• a real archaism is επιπολής και εν τω βάθει

I have tried to find an english translation for Dictionary terms αρχαιοπρεπής, αρχαιότροποςsarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

rare

lb rare = Category:Greek terms with rare senses - Greek rarely used terms or terms with rarely used senses

• Here, the explanation is better than the title. Most of the time, we do not have rare senses but rarely used morphological variations.
• rare word: very few speakers use it (dialectal, archaic) etc
• rare inflectional form (λύνου)
  • see Category:Greek uncommon forms which is done with {uncommon spelling of| (I just discovered this)
• rare sense of an otherwise common word (this corresponds to the Cat. title)
• rare variation (dialectal, historical) of a common word (αποθαμένος instead of πεθαμένος)
• rare as in less common v. more common

I think the title of the Category is misleading-παραπλανητικός. Cat: Greek rare words/terms would be more descriptive? sarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

misspellings misconstructions

I am confused with the inter-relation of the following:

• Category:Greek nonstandard forms,
  • I thought nonstandard = either dialectal, or too demotic, or too ... e.g. φκιάνω = φτιάχνω. But here I find the misspellings and misconstructions.
  • It almost coincides with label: rare.
• {misconstruction of|.. = Category:Greek misconstructions OK, understood
  • for infamous misconstructions (there are articles about them in greek internet). Not every single random misconstruction.
    • e.g. ηγουμένες see note. (There is a lot of research, essays about the -ένες misconstruction) This should stay.
  • NOT words that are simply WRONG morphological derivatives: e.g. μπολσεβιστής = μπολσεβίκος, απαθανατίζω = αποθανατίζω etc
• {misspelling of|.... = Category:Greek misspellings
  • most of these should be deleted. SOME must stay, as well-known repetitive mistakes e.g. κάθησα = κάθισα
• Category:Greek disputed terms proscribed, thus they are considered wrong according to prescriptive sources
  • here, e.g. αυγό v. αβγό, αυτί v. αφτί
  • not ALL the genitives that are rarely used, or 'proscribed' by grammars... we would then end up with hundreds. 'proscribed': The lexicographer warns his reader that if he uses this type, the natives will laugh.

problem

I worry because:

• misspellings, misonstructions appear in all valid lists and Categories: People COPY them (I used to do that), or they see it at a google title, and are CONFIDENT that it is word 'in wiktionary'=it is OK. Ηow can all these go into some kind of hidden a nodisplay category?
• same thing with Category:Polytonic Greek. EVERY word starting with a vowel, EVERY word with a perispomene, will be duplicated in all relevant Categories: nouns, verbs, etc, etc. Thousands of words... Polytonic lemmata are very useful guides if visitors want to search words from older books (we have all forgotten polytonic).

What is the solution? hidden Cats? sarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

incomprehensible descriptions

• The description/explanation e.g. for Category:Greek participles (and all participles)...verbs not fully conjugated, usually to be used in compound conjugations ?????
• The description/explanation for participle FORMS: ... that are inflected to display grammatical relations other than the main form
  • Why doesn't he say: 'inflectional forms of the main lemma'.

I am not the person who can correct such explanations, which apparently are identical for all languages. sarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

countable uncountable

In English, uncountables, I understand, do not have plurals -usually- (Excuse my ignorance, I have never had formal lessons for English). e.g. information has no 'infomations'. In greek there are no uncountables, there are abstracts (αφηρημένα) etc.

• most of the words in Category:Greek uncountable nouns are normal greek words, with plurals. Sometimes they are a bit δύσχρηστα (eng?)

Can the English Category:English uncountable nouns be mirrored to a Greek equivalent? sarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

pluralia singularia tantum

Γιάννης has Γιάννηδες. Αχιλλέας has Αχιλλείς. Παρίσι has the famous Παρίσια (Χαίρε Αλβιών! Χαιρέτωσαν τα ένδοξα Παρίσια! Kalvos) VERY FEW words do not have one of the 2 numbers: Άλπεις, χαιρετίσματα, χάος, Τάμεσις, κοσμάκης etc.

• Category:Greek pluralia tantum
  • do we include here, a normal word whose one sense differs in plural? Is this a plurale tantum? I think not. Άλπεις, χαιρετίσματα are pl.tantum: singular does not exist whatsoever. τα πεθαμένα, οι ουσίες, τα άρματα have different senses in plural.
    • SOLVED: see Category:Greek plural nouns for nouns with a different sense in plural. sarri.greek (talk) 14:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
• Category:Greek singularia tantum again, very few, (το ράδιο) and most of them, have different senses in sing. and in pl
• So, do we wish to label+make a Category for e.g. τις ουσίες=drugs ?
  • lb|if plural ? SOLVED
  • lb|plural sense? SOLVED

It is interesting that IF a xxx.tantum HAD the other type, it WOULD belong to a certain declension: e.g. κοσμάκης would have pl: κοσμάκηδες: So, its Category is ης-ηδες-noPl. sarri.greek (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Make CAT Greek nouns in singular, or Greek singular nouns (e.g. for κόσμος for special sense in singular: SAME AS Category:Greek plural nouns It will cover collective nouns too. sarri.greek (talk) 14:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

formatting

by User:Anomalocaris

2018.07.05. Advice from User:Anomalocaris at diff at my commands page. Thank you!

• DT and DD always close them
• DO NOT use FONT SIZE, FONT COLOR. instead always use: span style="font-size.../ color:..
• display wikitext with code+nowiki e.g. try <span style="color:#eeeeee;">code</span>+nowiki
  • ooooops. It makes it like PRE: Instead, if I use ONLY nowiki: try <span style="color:#eeeeee;">nowiki only</span>
• HOW TO make black links dotted:
  • I wrote
    • (<i><FONT COLOR="#000000">[[Appendix:Glossary#masculine|{{tooltip|masculine gender - αρσενικό γένος|masc|und=1}}]]</FONT></I>)
  • Anomalo writes (masc)
    • ([[Appendix:Glossary#masculine|<i style="color:#000000">{{tooltip|masculine gender - αρσενικό γένος|masc|und=1}}</i>]])

Sarri.greek: Thank you for your support for Wiktionary and your efforts to avoid Lint errors. On the "I wrote" line above, I commented out wikitext that includes two lint errors: Tidy bug affecting font tags wrapping links and Obsolete HTML tags. The goal here is to eliminate lint errors, not add to them. On each lint error page, in the upper right corner there is a "Help" link that takes you to a mediawiki page with more info on that type of lint error.

Default link colors should override font color markup outside a link. To change a link color, font color markup needs to be inside the link. This applies to both internal and external links. The Tidy Font bug is that when font color markup tightly wraps a link, it overrides the default link color. This effect has disappeared on Wiktionary and English Wikipedia, as they have recently changed their wikitext pre-processor from Tidy to Remex, and Remex does not have this bug/feature. For example, under Tidy, these links would display Red, but under Remex, they display in default link colors:

• <font color="Red">[http://www.kodak.com Kodak]</font>
• <font color="Red">[[User talk:Sarri.greek|talk]]</font>

Now for demonstration purposes I just introduced two more Tidy bugs and two more obsolete HTML tags. On the two lines above, please comment out the colons and everything following, to get rid of these lint errors, as I did in your "I wrote" line above.

The obsolete HTML tag <font> can be replaced with <span style>, but the style markup can also be added to many other tags, including, for example, <i> as you noted above, and also <b>, <sub>, <sup>, <div>, and almost any tag that takes a closing tag. Thank you again for your support for Wiktionary and for avoiding lint errors. Feel free to delete any or all of this, and please do remove or comment out the lint errors! —Anomalocaris (talk) 17:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Dear @Anomalocaris, Thank you for your time and patience. I feel 'obsolete' and 'dated': you know how some of us like to drive a w:Volkswagen Beetle... Same with HTML tags... I'll try to keep up :) sarri.greek (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The Beetle is a great car; it defined the subcompact category for more than a generation in America and worldwide. I've commented out the lint, but if you need to see it again, it's in the archive. Cheers! —Anomalocaris (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

IPA stress

Subject: IPA stress PLACING, NOT explained in GUIDES. 2018.03.
One of my friends was watching me writing the I.P.A. [roˈloi] for ρολόι (“wristwatch, clock”). She laughed and asked me: Why do you write róloi? And i realized: witkionary users CANNOT guess the orientation of primary stress. Had it been ro‵loi it would have been clearer, but the Association did not choose this diacritic for stress. Of course, [ro.ˈlo.i] has more chance. I checked all kinds of guides, keys, Wikipedia articles: the placing of stress is either not mentioned, or buried somewhere down the page. I think there should be a campaign for adding at the VERY TOP of EVERY IPA page:

NOTE: The stress (ˈ) is placed BEˈFORE the strong syllable

I checked (2018.03.):

• 1. IPA Guide: no mentioning of placing of stress.
• 2. Keys at Category:Pronunciation_by_language
  • 2a. here, some Appendices have wiktionary pages of their own. Some of them do not mention the placing.
  • 2b. but most Appendices direct to the wikipedia 'Phonology' and 'xxx Language#Phonology' pages, which do NOT comment on IPA rules; they deal with the stress as in their spoken language. Shouldn't the Keys direct to the 3) kind of pages?
• 3. w:Category:International_Phonetic_Alphabet_help
  • Here, most pages mention the placing of stress, but faaaar down the page: I bet no wiktionary user will read all the artilce.

    e.g. w:Help:IPA#Marks_added_to_letters

    w:International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Suprasegmentals

Is there anyone in this wikiwilderness who would sympathize with IPA-ignorant users?
All that, because a friend of mine looked at that ro'loi... sarri.greek (talk) 02:36, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

comments

Any comments?

by User:Κλειδίον

(moved from TALK):

There are also:

• IPA (suprasegmentals) & IPA (complete chart) which comes with example "ˌfoʊnəˈtɪʃən" (phonetician) and ˌf- shows the mark goes before the syllable.
• w:en:International Phonetic Alphabet#Suprasegmentals: "stress (symbol goes before stressed element)". I once went so far to learn more about some IPA diacritics. On Wikipedia and Wiktionary there are also examples on certain pages, e.g. κλειδί (kleidí) (see "Pronunciation").

-Κλειδίον (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

PoS: grammar or sense?

Part of Speech. gre: μέρος του λόγου. How do we handle a grammatical part of speech which behaves/functions as another?

• participle versus adjective.

Cat:Greek_participles

• adjective substantivized (noun.pl. collective βοοειδή discussed separately from adj. βοοειδές)
• Put them manually at both Categories?

sarri.greek (talk) 12:31, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

answer by 84.161.29.82

(moved here from Talk): Thank you 84.161.29.82!

• Participles have entries as verb forms, adjectives (often together with a verb form entry as in gefordert) or participles (WT:EL#Part of speech allows "Participle"). There's no uniformity, as can e.g. be seen in gesungen (German participle as verb form, Anglo-Saxon participle as participle), gelost.
• Adjectives substantivised are sometimes given in the adjective section with a label "substantive" (often missing the gender though ...), and sometimes have a noun section. Sometimes it got moved from the adjective into a new-created noun section. 84.161.29.82-07:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

templates

mention

{{mention}} 2018.06.02. I get italics. When using it in etymologies, I cannot make normal:

* ''{{m|en|Koine}}''
* <span style="font-style:normal;">{{m|en|Koine}}</span>
* {{m|en|Koine|italics=-}}

answer 2018.06.27. by User:Κλειδίον at Talk

• Koine   ({{m|en|Koine}} with italics
• English Koine   ({{m+|en|Koine}} with italics and text
• Koine   ({{l|en|Koine}} without italics
• l (small ell, not big ai) is short for Template:link

Thank you! for {m| I now use this trick: I put it in {q: italicsxitalics=normal:

• (Koine) ({{q|{{m|en|Koine}}}})

sarri.greek (talk) 21:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

terms

Terms greek-eng admitted in en.wiktionary. see Glossary. Make list of corresponding greek - English terms noting the difference of nuances at hellenogenous eng. terms (often different from gre.mod. descendants). e.g. contraction, synaeresis, συναίρεση. sarri.greek (talk) 09:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

reference languages

• is there a term 'reference languages' such as latin, greek, Sanskrit? The languages which produce many words in many languages.

answer by 84.161.29.82

(moved here from Talk): Thank you 84.161.29.82!
Latin and Greek (not Modern Greek, of course) are known as "classical languages" (Germ. klassische Sprachen), which is not to be confused with periods like "Classical Latin", "Classical Arabic". Sanskrit could be called the Indian classical language. But IMO that seems unrelated to "reference". -07:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, there is no term 'γλώσσες αναφοράς'. sarri.greek (talk) 09:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

form - type

• μορφή - τύπος / eng: form - type gre: γραμματικός τύπος - eng: inflectional form

Smyth uses 'forms' for inflection. Greek grammarians use 'τύπος', (as in columnary inflections) hence Τυπολογικόν part in old Grammars. 2017.12.03.

answer by 84.161.29.82

(moved here from Talk): Thank you 84.161.29.82!
Non-Greek also used morph- as in Eng. morphology (study/science of forms).-07:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

interwiktionary links

Interwiktionary links at left hand menu.

• How do I add a link to another Wiktionary for the same word?
  • You don't have to, it's done automatically Wikidata now.
• How can I create a new interwiki?
  • https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:NewItem

    Use the following descriptions

LABEL
Κατηγορία:......
DESCRIPTION
Wikimedia category
κατηγορία εγχειρημάτων Wikimedia
page de catégorie de Wikimedia
---------for templates
Wikimedia template
Πρότυπο εγχειρήματος Wikimedia
modèle de Wikimedia
---------for modules
Module εγχειρημάτων Wikimedia