Reconstruction talk:Proto-Kartvelian/ʒor-
Add topicLatest comment: 25 days ago by კვარია in topic Why we consider Zan as a Georgian Borrowing?
Why we consider Zan as a Georgian Borrowing?
[edit]User:კვარია Why we consider Zan forms to be borrowings? Is it because the world final Vr sequence is turning to Vl? Is there a Georgian dialect that does that? If not, it means that sound change happened in Zan (more than likely sporadic), which, for the sake of argument, could happen to a descendant of this word. If o to e is the weird part, we have P-Kart. *oc1- to *weč- to Laz eçi or more directly, the umlaut of o to œ to e because of the case suffix -i (again sporadic). Thank you for your time. Gubazes (talk) 19:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Gubazes: I'd consider a regular descendant of Zan to be something like *ძVჯ- (*ʒVǯ-). Do you know of other Zan words that uniformly show *-r-i > -l-i rather than normal *-r-i → -ǯ-i? Two words spring to mind, but I'd consider the first one a Georgian borrowing as well because a regular descendant exists in Mingrelian (i.e., descendants of Proto-Kartvelian *čxir-). Another is Proto-Georgian-Zan *kmar-, but not all Kartvelologists accept that the Zan *komol- are connected to it. As for umlaut, we don't know when Zan *o → e umlaut rule stopped working so I'd consider it to be a sound change of lower priority than for example *-r-i → -ǯ-i. If you'd prefer having "perhaps inherited from Proto-Kartvelian" for Zan as it was before with a question mark on the reconstruction page, I wouldn't be opposed to it. კვარია (talk) 07:06, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- User:კვარია Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean this shouldn't be a Georgian borrowing, I was wondering why is this the case. there are few *-r-i to -l-i happening, but with the data set we have of Proto-Kartvelian they could easily be explained as such a dissimilation from the previous r, which doesn't exist in this word. For *-r-i → -ǯ-i I'm aware of it, but we also have Proto-Georgian-Zan *ḳver- to კვარი (ǩvari). Klimov explains the exception with "ordinary use of the lexeme in the plural", could this be the case here? Gubazes (talk) 09:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Gubazes: There really isn't much data to consider this issue solved. Klimov is quoting Rogava. I don't have Rogava's paper so I have no clue what it says. Here are some cases of *-r-i → -ǯ-i failure in Zan (not a single one becomes -l-i):
- *lʿ ?
-
- Proto-Georgian-Zan: *c̣₁q̇ar- (“quail”)
- I believe the correct reconstruction is Proto-Kartvelian *c̣₁q̇alʿ-; such reconstruction easily accounts for Svan შყა̈ჟუ̂ (šq̇äžû) (← *č̣q̇aš-) and accounts for Mingrelian too. In traditional sources, Svan is considered to have been borrowed from some nonexistent Mingrelian **ჭყოჯი (**č̣q̇oǯi) which is supposed to have been a parallel form to the modern Mingrelian one which was then lost; these three assumptions are made only because people are too stubborn to admit that a straightforward albeit sporadic *l → r occurred in Georgian (perhaps one motivation for this change could have been the fact that a descendant of PK *c̣₁q̇alʿ- would coincide with Georgian წყალი (c̣q̇ali, “water”) ?).
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- Proto-Georgian-Zan: *ḳwer- (“something round (loaf; hammer; kneecap; etc)”)
- Georgian-Zan terms are perhaps comparable to Svan კუ̂ა̈̄ში (ḳûǟši, “mchadi”), in which case we could reconstruct Proto-Kartvelian *ḳwelʿ-; if, after all, Svan is considered to be unrelated, then the lack of -ǯ in Zan could probably be explained by the influence of its reduplicated forms (i.e., Mingrelian კვაკვარი (ḳvaḳvari)). Rogava in the aforementioned paper apparently derived Svan კუ̂ა̈ნჭ (ḳûänč̣, “sacrificial bread made with cheese”) from Mingrelian **კვანჯ- (**ḳvanǯ-). Additionally, a similarly reconstructed word supposedly exists in Nakh-Daghestani languages and it supposedly contains a "r" (but I don't trust Starostin-Nikolayev reconstructions so the jury is still out)
- Regular descendants, rule fails for unknown reason
- Suffixed with -ar, it's not clear why this suffix is treated in a special way
- Expressive reduplications and/or onomatopoeiae which understandably don't undergo this sound change
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- Proto-Georgian-Zan: *q̇ar-q̇ar- (“pumpkin”) ← Proto-Kartvelian *q̇ar-
- Controversial reconstructions
- კვარია (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- User:კვარია I think we can safely say this is a Georgian borrowing. I'm not sure why Kartvelogist is trying to reconstruct "Georgian with extra sounds." Sometimes I feel like they're ignoring the evidence from Zan and Svan. This is exactly what's happening with Klimov. I've gained a better understanding of Zan sound changes thanks to my work in Laz entries. I was wondering if there's an article or a book with free access that dives into the phonological history of Kartvelian languages. I'm hearing things like Gamkrelidze's Law, but I'm not sure what it is. I can't find anything about it, and when I try to search for Gamkrelidze, I see some Proto-Indo-European articles. I think it is the shift of postalveolars to consonant clusters and "retroflexs(?)" to postalveolars. Thank you so much for your help. Gubazes (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Gubazes: Rather "safely for now" and leaning more towards a borrowing. Who knows, maybe we will find more data that will justify its inheritance? Also it turns out the similarity was already noticed by Kipshidze, but Kartvelologists either didn't notice it or simply rejected it.
- Georgian-centrism is partly understandable because a) Georgian is a language with "old" literature, and b) it's a rather..uh.. boringly regular language. But sweeping away every single irregularity in Georgian isn't a correct approach. Also having carefully read all etymological dictionaries, I'd say Klimov's dictionary is actually the best one because it contains far less errors than the others and I will laugh in the face of anyone who tells me Fähnrich-Sarǯvelaʒe is better :).
- Gamkrelidze's law is basically his observation that PK *š before the phoneme /w/ became skv/sḳv in Zan and sgw in Svan instead of the expected škv/šḳv and šgw respectively. He also noticed that in Zan the same happened in cases where PK *š was preceded by phoneme /r/: i.e., *rš → rsk/rsḳ. This law was later expanded to all sibilants, thus: PK *šw → skw/sḳw/sgw; PK *č̣w → c̣ḳw; PK *čw → ckw; PK *ǯw → ʒgw/sgw. (And before /r/ for Zan.) However as the data of Kartvelian expanded, more and more cases where Gamkrelidze's law failed to operate were discovered. Gamkrelidze himself was aware of some of such cases, but he explained them by the necessity to avoid homonymy or by influence of phonetic analogy, but this is probably not a good explanation, or at the very least an incomplete one, because we have roots where violations of this law are unexplainable. There are also a couple of cases where Gamkrelidze's law operated in Svan, but failed to operate in Zan in the same environment. In expressive roots, you may also find doublets that did and didn't undergo this sound change. So I'm not sure it should be called a "law" rather than some kind of sporadic dissimilatory process.
- An example of where Gamkrelidze's law operated is for example the root Proto-Kartvelian *ma-rǯw-en- (“right; right hand”), which in Zan gave მა-რძგვ-ან-ი (ma-rʒgv-an-i) (from earlier *mo-rʒgv-an-i) and in Svan მუ-რსგუ̂-ენ (mu-rsgû-en) (from earlier *ma-rʒgw-en), or Laz ანცქვი (anʒkvi, “spoon-shaped cutting tool; adze (?)”) from Proto-Georgian-Zan *ečw- (“adze”). An example of failure of Gamkrelidze's law is for example Laz მუმჩქვი (mumçkvi, “badger”) from Proto-Georgian-Zan *mančw-. Gamkrelidze's law is also the reason an adhoc (w) is inserted in various reconstructions, like for example Laz სქანი (skani) from Proto-Kartvelian *š(w)en- as otherwise we'd expect Laz **შქანი (**şkani). An example where both forms exist (this is my reconstruction and etymology) is Proto-Georgian-Zan *č̣winṭ- (“something pointed and curved upwards (i.e., nose of a shoe)”) (cf., Georgian ჭვინტი (č̣vinṭi)) which in Mingrelian is regularly represented by both წკვინტი (c̣ḳvinṭi) as well as ჭკვინტი (č̣ḳvinṭi).
- As for books, not a lot of stuff is written in English. Almost everything is in Georgian, with a lot of literature written in Russian and German as well. You should try translating it with ChatGPT, it's much better than Google Translate at Georgian. (Google "translate" for Georgian is actually a crime against humanity.) კვარია (talk) 12:31, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- User:კვარია I think we can safely say this is a Georgian borrowing. I'm not sure why Kartvelogist is trying to reconstruct "Georgian with extra sounds." Sometimes I feel like they're ignoring the evidence from Zan and Svan. This is exactly what's happening with Klimov. I've gained a better understanding of Zan sound changes thanks to my work in Laz entries. I was wondering if there's an article or a book with free access that dives into the phonological history of Kartvelian languages. I'm hearing things like Gamkrelidze's Law, but I'm not sure what it is. I can't find anything about it, and when I try to search for Gamkrelidze, I see some Proto-Indo-European articles. I think it is the shift of postalveolars to consonant clusters and "retroflexs(?)" to postalveolars. Thank you so much for your help. Gubazes (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- If you have more data, let me know. კვარია (talk) 05:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Gubazes: There really isn't much data to consider this issue solved. Klimov is quoting Rogava. I don't have Rogava's paper so I have no clue what it says. Here are some cases of *-r-i → -ǯ-i failure in Zan (not a single one becomes -l-i):
- User:კვარია Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean this shouldn't be a Georgian borrowing, I was wondering why is this the case. there are few *-r-i to -l-i happening, but with the data set we have of Proto-Kartvelian they could easily be explained as such a dissimilation from the previous r, which doesn't exist in this word. For *-r-i → -ǯ-i I'm aware of it, but we also have Proto-Georgian-Zan *ḳver- to კვარი (ǩvari). Klimov explains the exception with "ordinary use of the lexeme in the plural", could this be the case here? Gubazes (talk) 09:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)