User talk:Cavidaga

Welcome!

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
• A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
• If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! —Mahāgaja · talk 14:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Caucasian Albanian / Aghwan entries

Hi, thanks for adding Aghwan entries. Please take note of the following conventions, though:

1. Here at Wiktionary, we call the script "Caucasian Albanian" but the language "Aghwan". That means the L2 header should be ==Aghwan==, not ==Caucasian Albanian==.
2. Please use only IPA characters in the Pronunciation section. That includes using symbols like ʲ directly, rather than <sup>j</sup>. If you're familiar with X-SAMPA you can use {{x2IPA}} to convert X-SAMPA to IPA, which makes typing easier.
3. Please use a headword-line template such as {{head}} (or equivalent) immediately after the Part of speech header, e.g. {{head|xag|letter}}.

If you have any questions, you can contact me or ask at the Information Desk. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks! I am a bit new to Wiktionary, so I will do as you say. Thanks for recommendations!--Cavidaga (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Udi normalization

Hello. I assume you are the Cavid known as Aliev's English stenographer on Twitter. I am responsible for Armenian or what little Udi content there is on this website. According to Wiktionary:About Udi I wrote, Udi entries should be normalized to Cyrillic using Wiktionary:Udi transliteration. In 𐕄𐔼𐔾𐕜 (ḳilṭ), the descendant ḳlinṭ should be normalized. I find klint̔ in Schiefner, which is equivalent to кӏлинт (ḳlint). Where did you find the spelling ḳlinṭ? --Vahag (talk) 18:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Vahag! Sorry, I haven't seen Wiktionary:Udi transliteration. I have used J. Gippert, W. Schulze, Z. Aleksidze, J.-P. Mahé (eds.) - The Caucasian Albanian Palimpsests of Mount Sinai, 2 vol. ISBN: 978-2-503-53116-8 (2008) - page II.7 - where they give examples to use of 𐕄 (ḳ) in words and cognates of those words. But nowadays Cyrillic is not used for writing modern Udi. --Cavidaga (talk) 18:55, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I made the template {{R:xag:CAP}}. Please use it in the Further reading section, specifying volume and page by the parameters vol=, page=.

From what I understand, Udi is rarely written. I have chosen Ghukasyan's Cyrillic alphabet as the standard, because it has a reliable dictionary and is comparable to the alphabets of other Northeast Caucasian languages. --Vahag (talk) 08:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Caucasian Albanian font

Is there a Unicode font for Aghwan? --Vahag (talk) 13:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

There is Optima Madoki and an upcoming Typefire font. Cavidaga (talk) 18:17, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Etymology of гьокъма

Məzələnirsən? Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 17:22, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Xeyr. Etnik udi olan Robert Mobili belə yazıb. --Cavidaga (talk) 09:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Çox yüksək ehtimalla Robert Mobili bunu yazanda məzələnirdi. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 10:36, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Aghwan transliteration

The common tilde you use does not look well, especially in transliteration. I suppose it should climb on top of the letter as our ՟. If so, you could use the combining tilde. In Word, use ALT+771. Compare 𐔱𐔰𐕇𐔶𐕎𐕈~𐔰 (bax̣ēnå~a) vs 𐔱𐔰𐕇𐔶𐕎𐕈̃𐔰 (bax̣ēnå̃a). --Vahag (talk) 12:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks, in my recent additions, I actually corrected the use. See 𐔼𐕚𐕙𐔰𐔺𐔶𐔾 (israyēl) --Cavidaga (talk) 12:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

кафтӏаркуси (kafṭarkusi), քավթառքոսի (kʻavtʻaṙkʻosi)

I refer to your Twitter thread. You say Udi куси (kusi) is "witch". In that case, Martirosyan's identification of the second part with քոս (kʻos, “scab”) is untenable. He alternatively proposes derivation from Persian کوسه (kuse, “shark; sea-devil; having little beard”). Are you aware of any discussion of the etymology of Udi куси (kusi) in literature? --Vahag (talk) 11:27, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• The definition given to куси (kusi) as "witch" was by Voroshil Gukasyan (p. 138). So far, I haven't seen any discussion regarding the Udi word. Azerbaijani tradition, especially folk festival tends to identify 'kusi' with Kosa, someone ugly with a little beard, short stature, sparse teeth and big eyes. So, someone with w:Alopecia areata would be regarded as 'kosa'. I think, it is still very similar to manginess as in քոս (kʻos). Also refer to köse. So, k'os in the first meaning (itch, scab, mange) could actually be a borrowing from Persian via Turkish methinks. --Cavidaga (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Old Armenian քոս (kʻos) can't be a borrowing from such young languages as Persian or Turkish. It would need to be borrowed from the Middle Iranian antecedent of Persian کوسه (kuse), but then Old Armenian կոյս (koys) or *կուսակ (*kusak) is expected. Still, your proposal is interesting enough to go into my list of raw etymologies. --Vahag (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

If kosa is “spot baldness”, then I see کوس (kōs, “cunny”) — from an ancestor or cognate of which Old Armenian կոյս (koys, “virgin”) came probably comparatively early — as the same word as کوسه (kōsa, “baldy; shark”), the one from which this was derived. The original meaning must have been any kind of “buttonhole” or crevasse, hence a body part exposed as opposed to clothing, whence a kōs-ak was then “one who has his skin exposed”. Obviously քոս (kʻos) is a skin disease which exposes the skin; there we have the vowel shortness of کس (kos, “cunny”) (to be doubted if it ever was kus), both that body part and the disease distorted for avoidance of naming the naughty. کوس (kōs) was always a bad word like all words for “hole” are at the point that they are transferred to mean sexual body parts. The witch and carnival figures, imagined with spare teeth as with lacunae at every thinkable place, are of course also very pertinent. Fay Freak (talk) 18:52, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

As for Old Armenian կոյս (koys) meaning “virgin”, the story that one can tell may vary a bit. I don’t have the entropy to have stemma in mind how Arabic عَوْرَة (ʕawra, “defect, gap”) (related to أَعْوَر (ʔaʕwar, “one-eyed”)) developed to “pudendum” and “woman”, but even though this meaning development was under Islam the religion is rather an epiphenomenon of social ideas and this is ample an analogy to illustrate that the sense of “virgin” is from that of “defect, hole”, even though it is hard to tell now what, with a virgin — her being untapped —, the crack was (hehe). Fay Freak (talk) 19:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: the basic meaning of کس (kos) and its cognates appears to be specifically "pussy" after all. I find it difficult for the other meanings to develop from it. Even for կոյս (koys, “virgin”) I am now inclined towards the connection with "beardless", if the basic meaning is "not yet marriageable youth". @Calak, what does Hassandoust say about the etymology of کوسه in volume IV, page 2292? --Vahag (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: He just derives it from MP kōsaγ "shark, scraggly".--Calak (talk) 18:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

нишкъатӏ

This is from Armenian նշխար (nšxar). Acharyan cites the Udi as nišqar, which makes more sense. Ghukasyan's -ṭ may be a mistake or typo. You have access to Udis. Can you ask them which is the correct form if they still remember the word? Also, I would like to redefine the word without using the dyophysite term "prosphora". As you know, Udis do not follow that heretical sect. --Vahag (talk) 20:41, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Udis didn't always follow Armenian creed, half of them followed Orthodoxy. This can be corraborated with Georgian and Russian archives (mostly Church disputes, especially in Vartashen; see Варташен споре о церквях, 5 марта, 1823 г. // Центральный архив Республики Грузия. Ф. 488. Канцелярия Экзарха, кн. 20. Оп. 6 (доп.).Д. 26446 or this archival file where certain Ter-Abramov attacked an Orthodox priest and tried to stop the church service in Vartashen). Point being, we can't say that all Udis followed this or that sect, especially after Russian invasion. When it comes to nowadays, they are under influence of Russian Orthodoxy for a long time, all their icons in Nij churches are Russian Orthodox with Slavonic letters, they even celebrate some Orthodox days, such as Bread Savior Day. Both Gukasyan and Mobili (p.221) give its translation as просфора (prosfora), that is proshophora. However, we can make it "holy bread" instead. And thanks for the etymology. I don't think it was widespread word prior to conversion to Orthodoxy as I haven't came across this word until Gukasyan, neither Jeyranishvili, nor Schiefner has this. Cavidaga (talk) 18:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

In Russian просфора is fine, but English prosphora is heavily marked as Greek Orthodox. I changed the definition to generic terms for the consecrated Christian bread.

Acharyan's sources for Udi words are two unpublished works: An Udi grammar written in 1842 by a certain Karapet dpir Ġahramanean Awtʻantileancʻ and an Udi dictionary written probably in 1933 by a certain Abgar Payazat. I don't know if these are more reliable than Ghukasyan. Vahag (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Just to confirm, turns out you are right. According to "Udi Gospels" by Schulze, it is nišq'art. Cavidaga (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Now we have three forms: nišq̇art, nišq̇aṭ, nišqar. This -t may reflect the -ք (-kʻ) in the dialectal Armenian նշխարք (nšxarkʻ), as in Udi ḳalasṭa from Russian коляска (koljaska). By the way, as you noted on Twitter, Schulze's etymological skills are weak. His etymological index should be used with caution. Vahag (talk) 21:01, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what took me so long to notice it, but there is actually an attested ancestor for Udi word in Albanian which is 𐕎𐔼𐕐𐔴𐕍𐔰𐕜 (nišeq̇aṭ). However, it is not used in form of "shewbread", but "dinner". Bezhanov's translation doesn't include this word for "dinner", but instead "evening bread". Cavidaga (talk) 10:06, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Excellent discovery. It is certainly from the same Iranian source. The meaning "dinner" must have developed from the process of "eating away, chewing down". Vahag (talk) 21:51, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

чышкъына, çısqana

I assume your derivation from Mongolic is an original research. We do allow original etymologies in Wiktionary, so this is not a problem. As far as I can tell, the appurtenance of the Turkey Turkish and Armenian words to this family of Mongolic words has not been proposed before and is my discovery. I would like to add the Azerbaijani and Udi to the list of discoveries at User:Vahagn Petrosyan/research mentioning your name, unless you used some source for the etymologies. Also, what is the source for the existence of çısqana? I do not find it in dialectal dictionaries. --Vahag (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I don't really mind. As for use, I have mostly seen it from social media and private use while doing field folklore research. You are right that, our dialectal dictionaries are not the best; especially when they are mostly outdated and not updated since break up of Soviet Union. They are mostly just latinizations. For example, Oghuz dialect also has kolbaşı (literally “shrub head”) for sea buckthorn, you can't find that in dictionaries either. However, one thing I discovered was that Udi use is entirely different from Armenian and Azerbaijani uses. Cavidaga (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Aghwan corpus

I want to create a repository of bibliographical data for Aghwan like Module:Quotations/xcl/data and Module:Quotations/oge/data. Do you know to what century does the Bible translation discovered in the Sinai palimpsests belong? Is the date of the Mingechavur inscription known? Is Aghwan text known from any other source? --Vahag (talk) 18:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, for some reason I just saw this. There is no exact timeframe, but this author put the date between 6th-10th centuries. Mingechaur inscription dates to 558, where the bishop explicitly states that the pedestal was raised on 27th regnal year of w:Khosrow I. Cavidaga (talk) 16:30, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

шад in Udi

You say this is a noun but the definition is "free", which is more often than not an adjective...free also has some noun senses but somehow I feel you meant the adjective sense, right? Acolyte of Ice (talk) 08:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I am sorry, it is actually an adjective. I will edit it. Cavidaga (talk) 15:06, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Adding new language sections

Bit of friendly advice, please remember to make a line to separate language sections by typing ----. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 11:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! I sometimes forget in time of haste. Cavidaga (talk) 11:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

pdfs of Molla Nesreddin

Hi, some time ago I visited your page at http://www.cavidaga.com/ and found pdfs of Molla Nesreddin in the original script and a pdf of their adaptation into the modern script. Now that I try to find that page I see only an error message in Dutch and in English. Although any opportunity to practice my Dutch is much appreciated, my question is whether you have a legible pdf with the original script, and if yes, whether it is going to be available on your page or if you could upload it somewhere else. I remember when I zoomed in on the PDF in original script, it wasn't really possible to discern the writing. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 16:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, it is just my hosting company notifying me of delaying the payment. It should be up later today. Cavidaga (talk) 10:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, how about the pdfs in higher resolution? Do you have them? Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 14:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Try this link. Cavidaga (talk) 10:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thanks👍 Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 21:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

ADU-nun Elmi Əsərlər

Hey. Do you know if Azərbaycan Dövlət Universiteti Elmi Əsərlər is available online? In particular, I am looking for the article Əliyev Ə.İ., Ermənistan SSR Meğri rayonu Azərbaycan dili şivələrinin bəzi leksik xüsusiyyətləri haqqında, ADU-nun elmi əsərləri (dil və ədəbiyyat seriyası), Baku, 1967, № 3, pages 59–67. Vahag (talk) 09:41, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, sadly, no. One has to go to central library for that. But this dictionary contains all the dialects once spoken in Armenia, including Meghri. Cavidaga (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)