Category talk:Hungarian reflexive verbs

Verbs with reflexive magát/magának etc.?

@Panda10: There seems to be a mess in Category:Hungarian reflexive verbs. I think there should be a category for Hungarian verbs (or rather, those with a particular sense and usage) that are reflexive when they take magát or one of its forms (that is why I created the template {{hu-refl}}): agyondolgozza magát, beveszi magát, beleártja magát, elkiáltja magát, elszánja magát, vhova feldolgozza magát, kiússza magát, meggondolja magát, összeszedi magát, teleeszi magát (each verb with a different prefix) and érzi, fogja, vkire bízza, kelleti, hívatja, itatja, eteti, moderálja, tartóztatja, önállósítja, vhogy viseli magát, vminek vallja, szégyelli magát (these verbs have no prefixes).

The term "reflexive" is already ambiguous in Hungarian: mosakodik, fésülködik is one sense (plus zárkózik is listed there too, whether it's correct or not), and this magát type is another, pretty different case.

In addition, maga may also have other uses in its different case-suffixed forms:

• magába rogy;
• megenged(het) magának, kikér magának vmit, fenntart magának, kisír magának vmit, megtart(ja) magának, összegüriz/összeügyeskedik magának, bátorságot/szabadságot vesz magának (vmire), bebeszél magának;
• magára marad, hagy, vállal, erőltet, ölt, vesz, kap(kod), ránt, szed, talál, von, vet, zár, várat, eszmél;
• magától értetődik, megtagad, megvon magától,
• magához tér(ít), vesz, vonz, emel, ragad, láncol, szólít
• magában tart, foglal, rejt;
• kiír vmit magából, (bohócot/mártírt) csinál magából, kikel magából, kibocsát, áraszt magából, kivet, kivetkőzik magából;
• magával ránt;
• magáért beszél;
• magánál van;
• and maybe with other case suffixes as well.

I'm not sure they all can be called reflexive as a whole, so maybe these categorizations could be limited to magát and magának, while the other idioms with a form of maga could be treated in some other way. Also, not every phrase that has a form of maga is reflexive: e.g. felhívja [magára] a figyelmet is just a special case of felhívja X-re a figyelmet where X = maga, but this replacement is not possible with several other verbs, e.g. magára hagy.

I suggest that the default in the template {{hu-refl}} should be "magát" but there should be an optional parameter if another suffixed form is required. Aside from the link to "reflexive" and "magát" (and mentioning their personal form variants), this template should also place the given term into a category "Hungarian verbs with reflexive magát" or "…magának" etc. as appropriate. (If you look at the items in this category, you'll see that these are not reflexive verbs in themselves; it's only a form of "magát" that makes them reflexive in one particular sense.) The categories that are thus created could be subcategories of "Hungarian reflexive verbs", so all that remain there should be the ones that are morphologically reflexive in their lemma forms. Do you have some suggestion?

On the other hand, I wonder if these senses should each be given their own entries. The reflexive sense is treated here in Wiktionary as one option beside "transitive" and "intransitive", so I think we could just as well list these meanings as a sense of the main verb with this template. What do you think? Adam78 (talk) 17:34, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10: I just realized we had a discussion about it some while ago. I hope we can find some solution to it eventually. Adam78 (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 Yes, this is a complex subject. I did re-read our old discussion and also those in Beer parlor. We'll figure out something. I have these initial thoughts:

1. Category:Hungarian reflexive verbs: I agree that this category should contain only real reflexive verbs (mosakodik, fésülködik, felfúvódik, borotválkozik, nyújtózik).
2. The verb-forming suffixes that are currently labeled in Wiktionary as reflexive can also create other types of verbs (e.g. frequentative), and I think that should be clarified in their entry. Not every verb ending in -kozik is reflexive (e.g. csodálkozik, találkozik).
3. Category:Hungarian verbs used reflexively with magát: I'm not sure about this category. But we'll see.
4. The Hungarian dictionaries handle things differently. E.g. agyondolgozza magát is a main entry in A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára but listed as agyondolgoz Nagyszótár. I'd prefer the latter if possible and add the sense with the pronoun as part of the main entry.
5. If you think we need a category for verbs used with magát, we could actually apply the same solution as you did in hu-case - just add magát and its other forms to {{hu-case-ending2}} and use the resulting Category:Hungarian verbs taking magát.
6. {{hu-refl}}: If you don't like the hu-case solution and want to go with this new template: Is there any other way we can phrase it?
7. I wonder if this paper is helpful: Fóris-Ferenczi Rita: A visszahatás kifejezése a magyar nyelvben történeti megközelítésben. It does mention that magát is not always reflexive when it is used with a verb.

Panda10 (talk) 21:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10:

• This paper is very interesting and will be probably helpful as well, thank you. (I haven't finished reading it yet.)
• I don't like the {{hu-case}} solution in this case because all transitive verbs that can have a sentient being as their object can also have "magát" as their object, so the phrasing "Hungarian verbs taking magát" would be misleading. (For example, látja magát [a tükörben] could also be categorized there if we take this name literally.) I think it's rather different from the arguments handled by hu-case.
• I'm completely open to other ways of phrasing {{hu-refl}}; I've made some change already. However, I'm not sure in what way you'd like to improve it.
• I also prefer the solution used by Nagyszótár. I've moved the relevant content of elragadtatja magát and megadja magát into elragadtat and megad, so I think we can delete them now. (The phrases halálra neveti magát and illúziókba ringatja magát will have to be kept anyway because they contain two other words.)
• Good point about -kozik, thank you.

Adam78 (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 The modified phrasing is better than the old one. But I'm still struggling with formatting. I made some changes to elragadtat. I think we need to display the elragadtatja magát form somehow, the label does not clarify that this expression uses only the definite conjugation. The other thing is the "agreeing with the subject" comment in the label. Is it clear enough? I added an example sentence because that's the best way to illustrate the usage. Another question: illúziókba ringatja magát - should this be added to the new category? Panda10 (talk) 15:35, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 When I updated árt, I noticed that sorting is incorrect in Category:Hungarian verbs used reflexively with magát. It should be under A, but it is at the end under Á. I have a new thought about how to format the entry: {{hu-refl}} would be used but instead of saying "with reflexive magát agreeing with the subject", it would be just "ártja magát -ba/-be" or maybe just "ártja magát" in bold ending in a colon, then the English definitions. This is very similar to Nagyszótár. The template would still place it in the correct category. It would be best to provide an example sentence to illustrate that the reflexive pronoun can have different forms depending on the subject and that the verb uses only the definite forms. Let me know if you find this approach workable. Panda10 (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10: I've fixed the sorting issue by inserting {{cln}}. I've also reworked the phrasing to include the things you suggested, so now we need to insert the definite form. I'm not sure if it needs to be linked or just bolding is enough.

I think we shouldn't delete "reflexive" altogether, since we do use "transitive" and "intransitive" everywhere else and this feature contrasts with them both. Also, the information about the definite conjugation should be kept together with the other grammar information and it's better to be added automatically than having to type it manually. However, now we don't have the information about the obligatory agreement of magát. Are you sure it's good the way it is, leaving it entirely to the usage example and the linked entry of magát?

Yes, I think illúziókba ringatja magát should be in this category since we generally treat verb phrases the same way (in terms of such lexical pieces of information) as single-word verbs. Adam78 (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 Thank you for fixing the sorting issue and reworking the phrasing. So far this is the best version. It doesn't mean we can't improve upon it further. I think we should link the verb, as is now. In Nagyszótár, this phrase is marked as transitive, so why would reflexive be a contrast? It can be both transitive and reflexive. You can add back the obligatory agreement of magát since I'm not sure the example will be enough. About illúziókba ringatja magát: We could actually create an entry illúziókba ringat and the reflexive structure could be added there. And I wonder which version is correct: illúziókba ringat or illúziókban ringat? Both return hits. Panda10 (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10 I think we could move the existing entry to the version without magát as it can be used with other, non-reflexive objects as well (in contrast with halálra neveti magát). "Illúziókban ringat" can be its alternative form. The grammar categories should be added to the primary form only, if possible, to avoid redundancy. I'd like to keep the categories informative, with as high a signal-to-noise ratio as possible.

For the same reason, if an entry only states that this term is an alternative form of X (fölmegy → felmegy, gondolkozik → gondolkodik, etc.), then the former alternative form needn't be categorized by the argument or any other features that are bound to be identical with that of the primary form.

Also, transitive might have a sense as having any object whatsoever or having an external object in particular, I'm not sure (for me, the latter sounds more usual), but I think this term is misleading and superfluous at best when the label reflexively is present as well.

I looked up Nagyszótár and I saw that it's not the ……… magát form that is labeled as transitive but the form without it, the original lemma itself.

I'm not sure whether we still need the grammar note about the agreement of magát. This grammar note is getting a bit long and we have a detailed declension table in the entry of magát. I'd rather leave it for the time being; we'll see later. Adam78 (talk) 22:19, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10: I finished moving the verbs in this category to the appropriate subcategories. One of these verbs, rogy, takes magába for its reflexive variant, so I created {{hu-refl2}} that places verbs into Category:Hungarian verbs used reflexively with magába and I found two more examples as well.

This template has a different syntax, since the definite form is not needed, however, it can be used with any case suffix variant where the given form of maga precedes the verb (except magát, of course). I thought that another template, {{hu-refl1}} could be used for verbs that are followed by a form of maga, like kikéri magának. The number at the back can be seen as indicating which position the verb takes within the reflexive phrase, first or second.

These phrases may be intransitive, like magába rogy, or transitive, like magába dönt, so I started to wonder whether the term "reflexive" is applicable to them. I still tend to perceive a contrast between them: either this, or that… The excellent paper you linked above also seems to treat them as distinct, as far as I gathered. Adam78 (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 Thanks for the update. Everything looks good. Are there any other open questions that we did not address? Panda10 (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10: The only open question was what I wrote above: "I started to wonder whether the term "reflexive" is applicable to them". Now I think it's better to omit "reflexively" from these constructions because they may be intransitive (e.g. kitesz magáért) or transitive (like magába dönt), and the term "reflexive" is confusing here. I'll change the wording and insert "intransitive" or "transitive" as appropriate into the definition line of the verbs in question. Maybe we'll need to rename the template and perhaps take their category out of the Hu. reflexive verbs category, so e.g. Category:Hungarian verbs used reflexively with magába will become Category:Hungarian verbs used with magába. These categories may then be collected in a category like Hungarian verbs used with a form of maga. Is this okay? Adam78 (talk) 11:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 It's more than okay, it's an improvement. I like all the suggestions. Let me know how I can help. Panda10 (talk) 18:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)