Talk:襅
Add topicLatest comment: 6 years ago by Poketalker in topic chihaya and chihayaburu
chihaya and chihayaburu
[edit]@Eirikr, Nihon Dai Jisho (page 528) says it is probably derived directly from 逸速 (ichihaya), any thoughts? The only chihaya in my current research is in the chihaya-bito poem in the Kojiki.
On another note, Daijirin says that 千早振る (chihayaburu, pillow word) is the one derived from 千早ぶ (chihayabu) but Nihon Dai Jisho probably has different derivations: 逸速ふ (ichihayau), and 千磐 (chi ipa → chiha, “thousand + rocks”) + 破る (yaburu). Any thoughts on these? --POKéTalker (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
- @POKéTalker -- FWIW, 千早人 apparently refers to the Uji clan, who were known for being fast and furious (i.e. 逸速し). So I think the Kojiki's chihaya is this same term, deriving from prefix ichi meaning “extremely” and haya as the stem or root of 速い / 早い.
- Chihayaburu is the 連体形 (rentaikei, “attributive form”) of plain form chihayabu, from ichihayabu, derived from 逸速し.
- Note that the 助動詞 bu is 上二段 with a modern plain form of biru. The buru form conforms with the expected Classical attributive. This is the same 助動詞 as in 大人びる, and it's almost certainly cognate with the 助動詞 mu, cognate with 目 and 見る. The bu / biru and mu 助動詞 (and related transitive / intransitive forms meru and maru) all have a basic underlying sense of “to seem like, to look like”.
- The Nihon Dai Jisho's listing of ichihayafu is this same ichihayabu, omitting the ten-ten mark from the ふ for some reason.
- The hypothetical 千磐破る → chi iha yaburu would have to lose the extra i to become chihayaburu, with no evidence for any term 千磐 chiha, and then somehow change from the 五段活用 pattern of 破る to become 上二段 instead, with no such putative stem verb yabu anywhere in the historic record, and thereby somehow generate the attested chihayabu as a kind of weird and unprecedented backformation. In light of the derivations of the constituent identifiable parts, Nihon Dai Jisho theory connecting this to 破る sounds very much like a folk etymology, and is probably best excluded, and only mentioned (specifically as a folk etymology) if the story about it is commonly known.
- HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the information, @Eirikr; the hypothetical appears in the Man'yōshū, poem 558 to be exact, like other chihayaburu poems that have various kanji spellings there.
For the chihaya hito poem, here is the comparison:
- 720, Nihon Shoki (poem 42)
- 知破揶臂苔于施能和多利珥佐烏刀利珥破揶鶏務臂苔辞和餓毛胡珥虚務 [Man'yōgana]
- ちはや人菟道の渡に棹取りに速けむ人しわが對手に来む [Modern spelling]
- chihaya hito Uji no watari ni sao-tori ni hayakemu hito shi waga moko ni kon
- Charmed and furious one, the ford of the Uji River—may a swift and skilled oarsman come here to my rescue![1]
The Kojiki poem 51 uses chihayaburu instead of chihaya hito, there's the usage example at 千早振る (chihayaburu).
- 711–712, Kojiki:(poem 52)
- 知波夜比登宇遲能和多理迩和多理是迩多弖流阿豆佐由美麻由美伊岐良牟登許許呂波母閇杼伊斗良牟登許許呂波母閇杼母登幣波岐美袁淤母比傳須惠幣波伊毛袁淤母比傳伊良那祁久曾許尓淤母比傳加那志祁久許許尓淤母比傳伊岐良受曾久流阿豆佐由美麻由美 [Man'yōgana]
- ちはや人宇治の渡りに渡り瀬に立てる梓弓檀い伐らむと心は思へどい取らむと心は思へど本邊は君を思ひ出末邊は妹を思ひ出悲けくそこに思ひ出愛しけくここに思ひ出い伐らずそ来る梓弓檀 [Modern spelling]
- chihaya hito Uji no watari ni watari-se ni tateru azusayumi mayumi / ikiran to kokoro wa moedo itoran to kokoro wa moedo / moto-he wa kimi o omoide sue-he wa imo o omoide / iranakeku so ko ni omoide kanashikeku koko ni omoide / ikirazu so kuru azusayumi mayumi
- At Uji Crossing, Uji of the raging clans, at the crossing shallows there stood a catalpa bow, a true-bow tree: I would cut it down, so I had it in my heart; I would take it off, so I had it in my heart; but at the root I remembered by lord, and at the branch I remembered my sister. With a sharp pang I remembered him there, with a deep twinge I remembered her here; I left it uncut and came on, the catalpa bow, the true-bow tree.[2]
- 720, Nihon Shoki (poem 43)
- 智破揶臂等于泥能和多利珥和多利涅珥多氐屡阿豆瑳由瀰摩由弥伊枳羅牟苔虚虚呂破望閉耐伊斗羅牟苔虚虚呂破望閉耐望苔弊破枳濔烏於望臂泥須恵弊破伊暮烏於望比泥伊羅那鶏区曾虚珥於望比伽那志鶏区虚虚珥於望臂伊枳羅儒層区屡阿豆瑳由瀰摩由瀰 [Man'yōgana]
- ちはや人菟道の渡に渡手に立てる梓弓檀い伐らむと心は思へどい取らむと心は思へど本邊は君を思ひ出末邊は妹を思ひ出悲けくそこに思ひ愛しけくここに思ひい伐らずそ来る梓弓檀 [Modern spelling]
- chihaya hito Uji no watari ni wataride ni tateru azusayumi mayumi / ikiran to kokoro wa moedo itoran to kokoro wa moedo / moto-he wa kimi o omoide sue-he wa imo o omoide / iranakeku soko ni omoi kanashikeku koko ni omoi / ikirazu so kuru azusayumi mayumi
- O thou Mayumi tree for Adzusa bows that growest by the ferry—the ferry of Uji! [chihaya hito] In my heart I thought to cut thee, in my heart I thought to take thee, but at the bottom, of my lord I bethought me, but at the top, of they spouse I bethought me. There I thought pitifully, here I thought mournfully―uncut I leave thee, o thou Mayumi tree for Adzusa bows![3]
Can't find any proper translation for the last one, Aston's translation seems outdated. Looks like chihaya hito itself is also an epithet (as in makurakotoba or pillow word) like chihayaburu. You're right about the allusion to the Uji clan, which is homophone with the name of the river.
Speaking of epithets, currently using "Phrase" for now, but there is an ongoing discussion about adding epithet senses.
Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- @POKéTalker -- Some musings on the terms and poems:
- FWIW, the KDJ lists 千早人 as a makurakotoba for the Uji clan, and 千早振る as a makurakotoba for Uji the place, for things related to fierce kami, and for specific kami and shrines. In light of the usage distinction, I suspect the poems above all refer to Uji the clan, not Uji the river.
- 渡出・渡手 (wataride) and 渡瀬 (watarise) both refer to a river ford, somewhere along a river where the stream is low enough to cross on foot. (Aston's mention of a "ferry" seems confused.)
- → Put together, I think the poems are talking about a river ford used by the Uji clan.
- 立てる (tateru) has, as best I can tell, always been transitive. So the English renderings above that talk about a tree standing or growing, intransitively, don't seem to fit.
- The terms adzusayumi and mayumi are a bit murky. I note over at w:ja:梓 that the term adzusa may have referred to a tree in genus Euonymus, and the w:ja:マユミ article describes such a tree. It's possible then that both of these terms in the poems were referencing a single (type of) tree. It's also notable that adzusayumi can refer to any ceremonial bow regardless of the wood used, as described at w:ja:梓弓. In light of the verb tateru, I'm inclined to think the poems are talking about a bow placed upright to mark the ford, but without more of the poem, I'm uncertain. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Expanded the last two poems in full above, but if you want, the link to the poems can be found here (article about the chihayaburu pillow word in the Man'yōshū) if you don't mind with the missing kanji which is 氐.
- Tateru being intransitive, maybe it's only in the scope of Old Japanese, many defenitions here, found nothing on 立てる in kobun. Reading the translations, looks like the meanings have been more loose over the course of a century. The theme, maybe, reflecting one's superior and a certain her?
- Given the timeframe between KJK and NS, did Ōyamamori-no-miko (did he write these?) rewrote the poem to change slightly the meanings?
- So in summary, chihaya hito is ichihayashi (or a certain derivation) + hito, given that chihaya directly means a kind of clothing? This is the first step in creating 千早 (chihaya) and 千早人 (chihaya hito). --POKéTalker (talk) 23:35, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- @POKéTalker -- Re: たてる, found what I missed earlier. Listed in the KDJ as an older sense for 立つ, and cited in the entry using the 立てる conjugation in the poem above as an example:
草木などが地から生える。また、棒などが下の面に垂直にささる。
- ふむ、勉強になりました。（＾＾）
- Re: the clothing, I think the sense development probably went ichihaya(shi): "very fast, furiously fast" → chihaya: "(literally 'fast-ness'?) sleeve tie-back to allow someone to work faster".
- Re: the rest, I'll have to look into it later -- stuff IRL is demanding my attention. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:27, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Eirikr, understood, we have our time differences. Please take it at your own pace; my patience never runs thin.
- Also, added entries 千早ぶ (chihayabu), 逸速ぶ (ichihayabu), 逸速し (ichihayashi), 逸速く (ichihayaku), and 逸速 (ichihaya); if you want to help add any senses and/or other things. It would appear that ichihaya stem is the original derivation to chihaya (cloth/overcoat) and chihaya hito/-bito (pillow word).
- Domo, ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
References
[edit]- ^ Jin'ichi Konishi, Nicholas Teele (2017) Earl Roy Miner, editor, A History of Japanese Literature, Volume 1: The Archaic and Ancient Ages (Volume 1 of Princeton Legacy Library), Princeton University Press, →ISBN, page 120
- ^ Edwin A. Cranston (1998) The Gem-Glistening Cup, illustrated edition, Stanford University Press, →ISBN, pages 33-34
- ^ William George Aston (1896) Nihongi: Chronicles of Japan from the Earliest Times to A.D. 697[1], page 275