User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 32

首相 vs 總理

OK, you raised a valid point there. We do use 總理 for the Commonwealth Realms other than the UK itself, but for countries that have their own monarchs, such as Japan, Malaysia, Thailand and Cambodia, we use 首相. And the same goes for European monarchies too like the Netherlands, Norway or Spain. The dog2 (talk) 23:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: That's not a Singaporean distinctive. I believe all Chinese-speaking places do the same thing. That's why it's not necessary to add that line that makes it seem like Singapore is doing something different. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:20, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

The usage note says that 總理 is used for the prime minister of Thailand. But that's not the case in Singapore. We also call the prime minister of Thailand 首相. I'm not sure if it's a mistake in the usage notes, or whether that is a difference between Singapore and China. The dog2 (talk) 02:30, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: This may indeed be a regional difference (just looking at the regional conversion tab on the Chinese Wikipedia article on the Prime Ministers of Thailand. I’m not entirely sure if the usage is entirely split as Mainland/Taiwan vs. Hong Kong/Singapore, so we might want to check a little bit more. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:32, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if there's any system to the 總理/首相 split in China, but in Singapore, the distinction I was taught in school was generally republic vs monarchy. I guess Australia and Canada are exceptions because even though they technically have the Queen, in practice it really is the Governor-General who plays the role of head of state. But for the UK itself, we do use 首相. The dog2 (talk) 15:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I feel like it's generally the same principle across the regions, just exceptions for a few special cases. While republic vs. monarchy is a useful heuristic, I'm not sure if it accurately captures what's going on. There seem to be other cases where both could be used. You may want to see [1]. Pinging @RcAlex36, Tooironic, Frigoris to see what they think. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

In Singapore, though, we call the Prime Minister of Malaysia 首相. It's only in China that the Prime Minister of Malaysia is called 總理. But how Malaysia differs from Australia and Canada is that while Australia and Canada have the British Queen as their head of state, Malaysia does not and instead has its own king. (And by the way, Commonwealth countries are not required to have the British Queen as head of state. That's a common misconception, but in reality only a minority of Commonwealth countries do.) The dog2 (talk) 18:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung In Malaysian Chinese news, you will hear the Prime Minister being referred to with the title 首相. Here's a link to the Malaysian Chinese news on TV8 on 21st October where the swearing in of the third Prime Minister since the 14th General Election is mentioned at the 30 second mark. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

多少 in Qionghai Hainanese

To me, it sounds like "wa-tui". Based on the characteristic consonant shift, Hainanese "tui" is probably cognate with Hokkien 濟. The dog2 (talk) 05:16, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm expecting something more like "toi", but I'm not too sure. If you could find another video with this, it would help. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

凳仔

I don't think this necessarily has to refer to a stool in Cantonese, unlike Mandarin 凳子. In that video I provided, after she used that word, you could see many people sitting on chairs with backs. By the way, here's another usage example, but in Singaporean Cantonese this time: [2] (2:53). This is where I got the term for Singapore in the dialect table. The dog2 (talk) 06:58, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I was not concerned about the stool-chair distinction, but whether a 仔 suffixed word should be included. To me, 凳仔 only applies to smaller chairs, not all chairs. 仔 is rarely used in standard Cantonese as a meaningless noun suffix. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I see. So will you remove it from the Singapore Cantonese entry then? The dog2 (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, I would remove it as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:09, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Religious buildings in Penang Hokkien

I just found a document with the names of religious buildings in Penang Hokkien: [3]. Maybe we can create the dialectal tables for 教堂 (church) and 印度廟 (Hindu temple) given this new information. Also it also has the Penang Hokkien name for a gurdwara and a Thai Buddhist temple. The dog2 (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the source. Churchman is a good source for Penang Hokkien in general. For the 教堂 table, I'm wondering if 奉教堂 is used for Protestant churches only or all Christian churches (e.g. including Catholic churches). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Penang Hokkien Dictionary also lists 奉教堂 as just "church". They're not specific about what type of church. The dog2 (talk) 23:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: What about in Singapore? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If you look here: [4], it's listed as just a Christian church, but it doesn't say whether it's specifically Protestant or not. I don't know the religious backgrounds of the people who wrote this site, but it's true that many Protestant Singaporeans insist that the term "Christian" refers only to Protestants and not Catholics. The dog2 (talk) 00:01, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Okay, thanks. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Euphemistic characters

Should we include euphemistic characters are alternate forms for the standard characters of vulgar terms? For instance, the Teochew word 膣 is often written as 雞 based on the latter character's Mandarin pronunciation (since most younger Teochew speakers in China today also speak and understand Mandarin). And I've seen a Hokkien speaker on Douyin substitute 臭膣屄 with 超級白. The dog2 (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Only if they are attestable in at least one durably archived source, I think. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

For the Teochew word, you can see it mentioned here: [5]. And it also comes up in the subtitles for this video: [6]. Do these count? The dog2 (talk) 23:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I don't think they would count, unfortunately. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

㟥 template issue

In the {{zh-see}} template at 㟥, the text at its traditional counterpart 嵾 ("(～嶺) alternative name of Wudang Mountains") appears to be causing the template to show “dot=,; before the correct target text. Hopefully this can be fixed soon. Bumm13 (talk) 02:58, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@Bumm13: Yeah, it's an issue that I'm not sure if I know how to fix. I've temporarily fixed it by avoiding using the |dot= parameter. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Reversion of 瘌痢

Consider this a note on your talk page that I believe your recent revision of 瘌痢 was indeed in error. Please see the documentation of this form here. I shall not revert your edit but would request you do so. Thank you. 104.246.222.32 05:22, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see "瘌⿸疒力" on that page, which is what you actually linked to. Does the character they show even have a Unicode codepoint? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@104.246.222.32, Chuck Entz: I do not know what source that is, but I reverted it because I find it unlikely that this two-character dialectal term would be attested in second-round simplified characters. The official documents on second-round simplified characters only mention 痢 as simplifying to ⿸疒力 (which is not encoded in Unicode yet). Just showing the characters do not count as attestation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:18, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for your consideration. 104.246.222.32 11:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Question about redirect

Hi, I just found this entry 嚙齒目動物 that is just a redirect to 嚙齒目...should it not be an entry in its own right? I don't know Chinese of course, but at face value to me, seeing as it's a 5-character term redirecting to a 3-character term, it feels like it's something that shouldn't be a mere redirect. User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 11:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@The Ice Mage: 嚙齒目動物 is SoP (嚙齒目 + 動物 "animal"), so we could delete the redirect. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:19, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I see, stuff at Special:WhatLinksHere/嚙齒目動物 should be taken care of though I imagine, particularly the fact that the 5-char term is listed as the translation at rodent. User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 21:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@The Ice Mage: Okay, cleaned that up. Thanks for letting me know! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

景教

I saw a picture of a Tang-era Nestorian steele from China in a museum recently, and it refers to Christianity as 景教. The dog2 (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: If you would read the definition we have carefully, it is only used of the Church of the East (or Nestorian church) back then, so I don't think it's appropriate to put it in the table. I know it's probably the only form of Christianity known back then, but it's a very particular kind of Christianity (that has been labelled heretical by ecumenical councils), so it would be very controversial to equate 景教 to the general term for Christianity. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:54, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that would have meant "Christianity" to the people of the Tang Dynasty since that was the only branch of Christianity they would have encountered, so they certainly would have no idea of the different branches of Christianity that existed. After all, Roman Catholicism only reached China in the 16th century with St. Francis Xavier and the rise of the Portuguese Empire, while Protestantism would have arrived later with the Dutch East India Company, and Eastern Orthodoxy even later with the rise of the Russian Empire. The dog2 (talk) 15:34, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Hong Kong Hokkien and Teochew

I just happened to chance on this book on Google books: [7]. Maybe there's some vocabulary we can extract from there. The dog2 (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Interesting. The thing is that I'm not sure if there's any substantial difference between the varieties spoken in Hong Kong and their counterparts in their homeland because the speakers seem to be relatively recent immigrants. It's my same hesitation with adding something like Toronto to the tables. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: There is no transcription for the vocabulary. I have reservations about adding them to tables. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:30, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yeah, that's true as well. It's hard to know if they're using a character because of it reflects the usual orthography or if they're careful about trying to use etymological characters. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:36, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

吉靈乸?

This is something I just heard from my relatives. It is pronounced "na" with a rising tone, but I'm not sure whether it is referring to a woman, or whether it is from an attempt to mimic the stereotypical sounds of the Tamil language. The dog2 (talk) 04:03, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Please do not put in words you're not sure about. Just ask me and put it in the comments or a talk page. If you're not sure if it's only referring to a woman or whatever else, I wouldn't know. I would suggest you asking what your relatives think of the word. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

回退却没有任何说明

阁下，https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=footprint&oldid=64807532 被回退的理由是？同时没有理由的回退应该不是礼貌的行为，对吧？ --Bangbang.S (talk) 11:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Bangbang.S: 你好，我在你的讨论页已经解释了回退的原因。如果你看不懂英文，我用中文再次解释。回退的原因是因为格式和/或翻译不妥。翻译栏的链接都应该能够做中文的词条，不应该有冗长的解释，也应该有繁简体和拼音。详情请参考 WT:AZH#Translations into Chinese lects。 — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

抱歉，没有关注到我的讨论页，但如果能在回退时附加上讨论页的理由，在不造成您过多负担的情况下，应该会更好吧，再次感谢 --Bangbang.S (talk) 03:03, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

改口

Hi Justin. When you get a chance, could you check which sense the Min Nan synonym 轉喙 refers to here? Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Sorry for the late reply. I've made the changes and made the entry for 轉喙 to make it clear. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:38, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: No problem! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

earlobe and 耳垂

Also, when you get a chance, can you check the Cantonese here? At earlobe it is written as ji5 zyu1, while at 耳垂 it is written as ji5 seoi4. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: 耳珠 is ji5 zyu1 and 耳垂 is ji5 seoi4. I don't think there's an error on either page. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:12, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I looked too quickly. Thanks for responding. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:17, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: No worries! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

著

In Malaccan Hokkien, at least in the part of my family that lives in Malacca, they pronounce this to̍h. Is there a way for me to add this?— Fredrick Campbell (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: What is the context/meaning for this reading in Malaccan Hokkien? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:02, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: It was used in the phrase 苦著儂 (khó͘-to̍h-lâng). I assume it has the same sense as the tio̍h pronunciation. I am not sure if the tio̍h pronunciation is used there. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Sorry for the late reply. Did you hear it in a conversation? If so, have you confirmed it with the people you were listening to? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:22, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I didn't because of the conversation's subject matter. Anyway, come to think of it, I can't be sure that this is 著.— Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

雄

Since 起雄 is pronounced khí-hông in Penang, can it be concluded that 雄 is pronounced hông? Fredrick Campbell (talk) 14:03, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Hmm, not sure if it's only in this word or used more widely. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Actually, 雄險, which, as far as I know means dangerous, is pronounced hông-hiám. Only problem is that I found it written this way in the dialectical synonyms for 突然. The edit was made by Caferatte89, who initially put it as 風險 in this edit. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:25, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: I think both hông and hiông exist then. Timothy Tye's dictionary has heong2 (= hiông) meaning "ruthless". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:59, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: That is a word that is used within my family. Ruthless is more accurate than what I thought the word meant considering the contexts I've heard it used in. Should we put both pronunciations then in 雄? Something like hông - vernacular; Penang. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:17, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the definition "ruthless" is absent. What label, if any, should this definition be added with? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Clarification regarding the pronunciation bit, hiông - vernacular; (Penang?) and hông - vernacular in some compounds; (Penang?) — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yet something else, what I thought of as 雄險 is definitely supposed to be 風險 anyway since 風險 means risk (dangerous situation). That also means that I've never heard of 雄險 and couldn't be sure how it's pronounced. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: I don't think the hông in khí-hông is actually 雄. I've asked Mar vin kaiser what he thinks about this. As for hong/hông-hiám, I'm not quite sure. This means we probably shouldn't put in hông at 雄 yet until we find more evidence for it. I've also added a few more Hokkien-specific senses at 雄 ("ruthless" and "intense"). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I kind of share the same sentiment. I am under the impression that it was only written that way here because of the 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. 起癀 is what comes out for khí-hông in my IME. I was guessing 起紅 myself, but I don't know enough about the etymology of the word to make any conclusions. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 12:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

徇

I've been attempting to verify the Hokkien literary pronunciation of this character is the same as 殉. I don't know how to perform this verification. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC) I had found [miasenn.moe.edu.tw]. Only problem is that 殉 returns only one pronunciation, so I can't be sure if 徇 is also pronounced sūn. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:58, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: It seems to be pronounced as sūn or sûn according to 闽南方言大词典. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:12, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: 殉 is also pronounced sūn according to wiktionary. Considering both 殉 and 徇 are reconstructed as *s.[ɢ]ʷi[n]-s in Old Chinese and are pronounced the same way in Middle Chinsese, might both have them have two pronunciations? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Not necessarily. There could be irregularities. Sûn is not a regular reflex of the Old Chinese or Middle Chinese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks. Do you know if most reflexes of Middle Chinese in Hokkien are regular, irregular or a mix of both? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 06:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

暈

Just so you know, I created the dialect table for this. I'm not sure if HK Cantonese also uses 暈, so you might want to update the table. The dog2 (talk) 17:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Thanks. Yes, HK Cantonese uses 暈 as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:11, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

成

There seems to be a lot of pronunciations for this character labelled as colloquial for the same regions. Are they all used within a dialect for different senses of the word or different dialects use one of the pronunciations or some combination of both? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: All used within a dialect for different senses. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

邪行

Could you please check the non-Mandarin 'lect readings here when you get a chance? Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:28, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic: The Cantonese looks fine. I don't think the second etymology is used in Cantonese, so I haven't added anything there. It's actually the Mandarin that needs fixing, which I've done. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:13, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2022 (UTC)