User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 30

煮

I was thinking of doing a dialectal table for this, but there is a complication here; in Hokkien and Teochew, the word for boiling water and the word for boiling something in water are not the same, while they are the same word in Mandarin. How do you propose handling this? The dog2 (talk) 22:37, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: What words in Hokkien and Teochew are you thinking about? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

The word for boiling water is 煆, and the word for boiling something in water is 煠. And it looks like Penang Hokkien also has the word 煎 for boiling water. The dog2 (talk) 22:44, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Hmm, 燃 (hiâⁿ) is more appropriate than 煆. I'm not sure if both are necessarily 煮 in Mandarin. There's also 燒 for boiling water. Also pinging @RcAlex36, 沈澄心 to see what they think. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:58, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess it is just character choice then. If you check 潮州音字典, the Teochew world hian⁵ is written as 煆, but I see your point since 燃 is the character used for hiâⁿ in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 and Penang Hokkien dictionary. 煮 is the word we use for boiling water in Singapore Mandarin. The dog2 (talk) 23:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: It is just a character choice, but 潮州音字典 also has 燃 (hian5 <潮>①烧火：~柴|~草|~山芼。②蒸煮：~粿|~饭|~糜。). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, I guess we should merge the two entries then. I'll leave it to you to decide which ones to merge. The dog2 (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Come to think of it, maybe we should have separate modules for boiling liquids, and boiling solids in water. Now that I think about it, even in Singapore Cantonese, people say 煲湯 and not 煮湯. And speaking of 煮, I don't think the "to cook" sense is used in Cantonese (but correct me if I'm wrong, since you're a native speaker). I know what the word is but I don't know how to write it. The dog2 (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think the split you propose seems appropriate. In HK Cantonese, boiling a liquid is 煲 (煲水, 煲湯, 煲粥) and boiling solids in a liquid is 煠 (saap6) or 淥 (luk6). We also use 煲 for cooking rice (煲飯). 煮 is definitely used in the broad "cook" sense, like 煮飯 (to cook in general, equivalent to 做飯) and 煮餸 (to prepare dishes). What word are you thinking of but can't write? How is it pronounced? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:16, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it works in Jyutping, but it's pronounced something like "cheng", with a rising tone and an unaspirated initial consonant. The dog2 (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Do you mean 整? It's also used, but it's kind of a generic verb meaning "to make". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:33, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that's probably it. It's most certainly also used in the sense of preparing a dish. I've also heard 煮飯 used in Cantonese, but I wasn't sure if it was proper Cantonese, or whether it was "Mandarinised" Cantonese that is used by non-native speakers. The dog2 (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

So for the sense of boiling a liquid, should we use 燒 or 煮 for the name of the dialectal table? The dog2 (talk) 17:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Stumbled onto this. @The dog2: 煎 is definitely not used in Penang for boiling water but only for frying. I am suspicious that 燃 is not actually boil in Penang Hokkien as it is always 燃滾水 with boiled water refered to as 滾水 and let it boil 予伊滾. Maybe 燃 has something to do with preparing boiled water while 滾 is boil? Another cooking-related Hokkien word I happen to know is deep-frying chi(3/7). As for Mandarin (maybe just Penang, maybe throughout Malaysia), 滾 is also used for boiling water. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 15:40, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Colloquial vs dialectal

Hello, what I mean by colloquial is that they are used only in an informal, and/or in a spoken sense, much like a slang, which is not dialectal. They are never used in a formal, and/or in a written sense. Wiikipedian (talk) 03:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: We include all terms used colloquially in a particular variety, dialectal (as in different from the standard) or not. I think by your view, we would have to remove other words in the table unless I’m misunderstanding what you mean by dialectal. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:25, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, what I mean by colloquial for the word 懂 is actually slang in Malaysian/Singaporean Mandarin. Wiikipedian (talk) 03:33, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Slangs are included in Module:zh/data/dial-syn/* as well (see [1]). --沈澄心✉ 03:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

In addition, many varieties don't have written forms at all. --沈澄心✉ 03:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: I think what you are calling "slang" is just colloquial (not formal, but used in everyday speech). "Slang" in a narrow sense would mean it's only understood by a particular in-group, but if it's understood by most people who speak the variety, then it can be called colloquial and would be included in the table. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: It is only used in certain subgroups of people, not in everyday speech, but can be understood by many. Wiikipedian (talk) 03:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Even then, I still think it can be included. @The dog2, what do you think as a Singaporean? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see any problem with including widely-undetstood slang terms. The dog2 (talk) 04:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Template for descendants

Hey, I just want to ask, when should use Template:CJKV and when should we use the regular Template:descendant when listing words in Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese that are loan words from Chinese? For the 雜菜 entry for instance, should the Korean word japchae be listed under Sino-Xenic, or as a regular descendant? The dog2 (talk) 05:38, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: {{CJKV}} should be used for Sino-Xenic readings (regular readings of Chinese characters in those languages) only. Other borrowings would use the usual {{desc}} template. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:40, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

So is the Vietnamese descendant of 鼓油 a Sino-Xenic reading, or is it a direct borrowing from Cantonese? The dog2 (talk) 05:54, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

And by the way, I tried on ping you on Wiikipedian's talk page. I wonder if you can help with that. The dog2 (talk) 05:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: For 豉油, it's definitely not a Sino-Xenic reading. You can see that in the etymology that the regular Sino-Xenic reading would be thị du. I'm not sure if it's from Cantonese directly though.

And about Kuching Hokkien, I would only have it if Wiikipedian's comfortable with it. If they're not a native speaker or don't want to hassle others for it, I wouldn't stress it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Spiritus Asper

Hey! Hope you are well. I remember a long time ago you had decided that entries like T'ang-shan would be done with regular apostrophes. Since that time, I have significantly upgraded the reliability (with durably archived citations) of several entries that have a spiritus asper in them- T'ang-shan, Ch'ü-fu, etc. Is there an official digital form of spiritus asper that could be used in entry titles or redirects to the current entries? I believe that any future Wade–Giles editors will want to see a full respect for the spiritus asper. If Wiktionary is not ready for this now, that's fine. I bring this up today because Wade-Giles (hyphen) got switched to Wade–Giles (en dash). To me, it would feel more noble and meaningful for Wiktionary if the website paid full respect to the old punctuation. Thanks. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: As I've mentioned before, this is a Wade–Giles issue that should not be extended into English entries, so English entries derived from Wade–Giles should still use regular apostrophes. For Wade–Giles in etymologies, I'm not sure which should be used, but probably following Giles in using the left apostrophe would be okay. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying and will continue to follow the current policy because of the knottiness of this issue. To be clear, the reason I bring up this issue is that I believe "this is a Wade–Giles issue that should not be extended into English entries" is demonstrably and obviously false (not trying to be rude, just clear). My basis for this claim is what I would call a widespread usage of a non-standard-looking apostrophes in English language texts, especially in pre-1979 works and even more especially in turn of the century material (19th-20th century). When it is written "For Wade–Giles in etymologies, I'm not sure which should be used" it is flabbergasting to me, because the answer seems clear. Despite these concerns, I understand the problems involved with this issue, so again I will stick with current practices. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I'm not sure for Wade–Giles in etymologies because Wade and Giles used different symbols. For English entries, we never use the 9-like right apostrophe (ʼ) in entries even though it is standard practice in printed material to use ʼ for native uses of the apostrophe, so I don't think we should make the exception for the other typographic variants of the apostrophe. BTW, I'm not sure about the move to the en dash form either. We generally do not have entries that use the en dash. @-sche has said "we don't use fancy hyphens, unlike 'pedia" when deleting the category Category:English terms spelled with –. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:19, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the great explanations. My understanding of the relevant Wiktionary policies and historical issues is too weak, but your explanation makes it clear: now I see that any strange dashes and apostrophes are not really part of Wiktionary. I see now that this is an issue that would only need to be handled if Wiktionary was much more comprehensive than it has ever been on apostrophes and dashes, and that level of comprehensiveness is judged as basically useless in the present stage of the website. Also, I am not fully aware of the issue internal to Wade-Giles. I will just keep trying to grow the coverage and hope that smarter people will come in and check everything at some point. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Thanks for understanding. While the entry titles should be using "plain" apostrophes, I think it would be helpful if you would use the actual typography in the quotations you add to the entries, so that can be documented that way. See Wiktionary:Quotations#Typography. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:34, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I undid the recent move of Wade-Giles, based on prior RFM discussions of English entries with en-dashes (analogous to the lemmatization of straight rather than curly apostrophes in English, and French etc). Regarding spiritus asper: if we're talking about what to do in ==English== entries derived from "Wades-Giles", my gut reaction would be to lemmatize the apostrophe, but I recognize this might be inconsistent with how we lemmatize e.g. click characters instead of exclamation marks, or how we lemmatize palochkas, so perhaps there should be a discussion about this. (If we were talking about ==Chinese== entries, I'd give weight to what editors of Chinese want to do, although the fact that as Justin says "Wades-Giles" doesn't use one symbol means we can't just do whatever "Wades-Giles" did, since Wade used one symbol and Giles another.) - -sche (discuss) 20:01, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Currently, we seem to be following Giles in Chinese entries and using ʻ (U+02BB, MODIFIER LETTER TURNED COMMA). I'm not sure if the English lemmas should using the character because it seems like works by people who don't necessarily know Wade–Giles/Chinese tend to just consider it as an apostrophe (e.g. quotes under T'ang-shan). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

New entries

Just so you know, I created a few new entries, if you want to vet them. Also I created the entry for 豬西 some time ago, but you might want to double check in case I'm missing some nuance. It was mentioned in this video (it's quite a funny video, if you care to watch it). Also he mentions that the Cantonese equivalent of 梗/哏 is actually directly borrowed from the English word "gag", but I'm not sure if there's a character for the word, or if Cantonese people just type out "gag" in English. The dog2 (talk) 20:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think the entry for 豬西 should be okay, but I'm not familiar with it actually. @RcAlex36, please confirm that it's okay. For "gag", I think people just write it as "gag". I'm not sure if it's actually the same as 梗/哏 though. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

豬西 is okay. "gag" is indeed borrowed from English and simply written as "gag". RcAlex36 (talk) 03:49, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

老虎頭上拍蒼蠅——不想活了

How should we create the entry for this xiehouyu? It seems like there are multiple versions for this. For instance, the first part is sometimes said as 老虎頭上撲蒼蠅, while the second part can also be 好大的膽子. The dog2 (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think for this, perhaps we should only make 老虎頭上拍蒼蠅 and its variants and not worry about the second part. @RcAlex36, what do you think? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:32, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

And by the way, please feel free to copyedit the definitions of entries I created. I may be fluent in both English and Mandarin, but even so I sometimes find it hard to translate certain concepts, so please feel free to use clearer and better translations if you can think of any. The dog2 (talk) 02:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yup, sure thing. I will usually check on your edits once in a while, so there's no need to leave messages unless there's something you're really unsure about. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Come to think of it, would it be excessive to create all four variations and list them as synonyms? The dog2 (talk) 03:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Are they actually the same meaning-wise? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:41, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

See [2]. It seems like they are the same, with a slightly derogatory connotation. The dog2 (talk) 03:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: What I mean is 好大的膽子 and 不想活了 are kind of different. I guess we could make all the variants, but only make variants that would pass WT:CFI. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I see. Yeah, their literal meaning is different, but I get the sense that this implies that the person is not only brave but being a smartass as well. The dog2 (talk) 04:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

茶三酒四踢桃二

Hi Justin. Any chance you could add a definition for this Teochew saying? The entry as it stands is not very illuminating. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

We should probably also get Austin Zhang to check the definition as a native Teochew speaker. The dog2 (talk) 00:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Sorry, I've never heard anyone saying it nor used it myself, I guess it's an old-fasioned saying. --Austin Zhang (talk) 00:57, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

l|yue

This should link to #Chinese. This usually happens in a translation section. I'm not sure if there're other langcode of this problem. EdwardAlexanderCrowley (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

@EdwardAlexanderCrowley: I believe all the Chinese languages have this behaviour. I'm not sure if this is necessarily something that needs to be fixed. While it seems to be the case that all Cantonese and Mandarin entries are under #Chinese (other than unconverted character entries from the days of old), Min Nan entries in POJ should link to #Min Nan, and Dungan entries in Cyrillic should definitely be linked to #Dungan. @Atitarev, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:43, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Instead of changing the behavior of l, generating anchor <span id="Cantonese"></span> by zh-pron also solves this problem, though at a L3 position. EdwardAlexanderCrowley (talk) 00:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

隔籬鄰舍 vs 街坊

I added some usage notes in the entries, in case you wanted to double check them. This was based on what I've heard from asking Cantonese people about the difference. Likewise, I added notes regarding the difference between 厝邊 and 厝邊頭尾 in Hokkien and Teochew. The dog2 (talk) 20:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think they look okay. I'm just not sure about whether it's a "block". I think 街坊 could even be more than a block - it's like the entire neighbourhood, which could be bigger (or in some cases smaller?) than one block depending on how big the neighbourhood is. @RcAlex36, do you have any thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking of how to best phrase it, because what you mentioned applies to 厝邊頭尾 too. But what I was trying to convey is that one only refers to immediate next-door neighbours, while the other refers more generally to all the neighbours. So for instance, if you're living in a small village, 厝邊頭尾 could potentially apply to all the other villagers. I think where the line is drawn isn't always that clear cut. The dog2 (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think "neighbourhood" is probably good enough? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:54, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess that works. The dog2 (talk) 20:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

街坊 is any person in your neighbourhood. RcAlex36 (talk) 00:49, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Fuqing dialect in Singapore

Just so you know, there's some videos here: [3]. I don't know how much you can extract from it for the dialect tables. Just so you know though, in Singapore, Fuzhou people and Fuqing people are considered to be separate dialect groups. The dog2 (talk) 05:31, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think I found the full series here: [4]. I think it could be added. Do people still speak Hokchia in Singapore? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, there are still some speakers left, but they're primarily elderly and middle-aged. Like other Chinese dialects, most Hokchia people born after 1980 can't speak it unless they were raised by their grandparents. The dog2 (talk) 06:14, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Fuzhou vs Fuqing

Just wondering, do you know how much their pronunciations differ? Sometimes it's a little tough to tell whether it's the same word as in Fuzhou but with a different pronunciation, or if it's a different word altogether in Fuqing. Unfortunately, I don't speak any Mindong dialects, so unlike the case of Minnan where I am somewhat familiar with the sound correspondences between Hokkien, Teochew and Hainanese, I am not as familiar with sound correspondence in Mindong dialects. The only one that I know is that an /s/ sound in Fuzhou usually corresponds to a /θ/ sound in Ningde. The dog2 (talk) 04:08, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think they’re pretty similar. /s/ in Fuzhou is /s ~ θ/ in Fuqing. Words like 我 /ŋuai/ in Fuzhou are pronounced with /-ua/. There are probably other differences but I’m not sure. You can also take a look at the Wikipedia pages for the two dialects. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:43, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

謝謝

Just thought you might want to check the entry I made there under Singapore (Fuqing). I vaguely recall coming across something similar in an online video about the Fuzhou dialect, but unfortunately, it seems that the video has been taken down. What I do remember though is that the expression was written 起動 in the video. The dog2 (talk) 15:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, it should be 起動. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:26, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

湯圓 in Fuqing dialect

Hi there. Unfortunately, the web-site you pointed me to previously to generate new unicode Chinese characters has shut down. I'm trying to input the word in Singapore Hokchia, but I don't think the character is used in Mandarin. You can see it here: [5] (12:59) The dog2 (talk) 00:42, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm not sure if it's exactly 湯圓, since they don't call it that in the video. I think in Fuzhou, they can even fry these. The character is 𥻵, but the 本字 should be 餈, which we usually write as 糍 in our entries. There's an article on this on Wikipedia: Sì (dessert). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:37, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Oh, I forgot to let you know that Guoxuedashi is now at [6]. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion Request

Hey- sorry for the large amounts of interaction recently-- one more comment if I may. I have created Xantung, Xansi, and Xensi recently. I plan to create other early contact transliteration entries like these. I would appreciate any advice you could give me about how to best utilize Wiktionary to make these three entries and their associated entries maximally high quality in a way that a PhD student doing research in early East-West contact will land on the page, be impressed, and will help explain the secrets of the etymology of these words to us. Why? Well the answer for where these words come from will actually tell us where Yunnan and similar words come from too, because some words we use today have been in use since the 1600s, and were just adopted throughout Wade-Giles, postal romanization, Hanyu Pinyin, etc. I want to really get the full picture of the history of these words for Wiktionary, and it's frustrating to me that Yunnan, Xantung, and etc just "emerge from the mists of time" as it were. For instance, there's got to be an early system of transliteration, however feeble or absurd it was, that led to the "X" in all three province names. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I'm not sure if there will be such a PhD student necessarily (since that's oddly specific), but I think the entries look good as they stand. The use of "X" is definitely interesting, but I am not aware of any systematic romanization system that uses "X" for pinyin "sh". "X" can pronounced like "sh" in Portuguese in certain contexts, so it might be helpful to see if Portuguese had these spellings and if English got these spellings from Portuguese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:05, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I will keep your comment about Portuguese in mind- seems like a plausible origin given Portugal's early contact with China. Do you know if there's a Matteo Ricci work on China-related geography? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I did find one Ricci usage- see Talk:Shanxi if interested --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I found a few maps with the Xantung spelling: [7] [8]. I'm not sure of my hypothesis since these maps were not made by Portuguese people. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:12, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

條女

I added this term to the module for 女朋友 because I heard this term in a Hong Kong movie. The character who used this term was a gangster boss kind of character though, so my sense is that the term is somewhat derogatory or condescending. Could you please confirm if this is the case. The dog2 (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: It should only be 女. 條 is a classifier. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

捎

Hi Justin. I just added the relevant Mandarin readings and sense for this term. When you get a chance would you mind adding the non-Mandarin 'lects? Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I've added some more. Just wondering where you got "to lift up; to raise up". I can't seem to find this sense in my dictionaries. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:43, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I got that sense from A Student's Dictionary of Classical and Medieval Chinese, Revised Edition published by Brill in 2015: "lift up, raise up; wave, wield, brandish, a) strike, hit, club". I'm not sure if it would be attestable though. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:56, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Are these all given as one sense? Does the dictionary give examples from ancient texts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes. And no. We could just remove it as I'm not seeing it listed anywhere else. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:33, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Should Chinese romanization be capitalized or not?

I've created two new entries in chinese (馬克斯), (大利拉), but I didn't put their romanization with uppercase letters at the beginning because they're proper nouns. What do you think of it? 小巴西人 (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

(I believe Wiktionary's policy is yes, that Wiktionary will capitalize the Pinyin for these words, as is seen in the Putonghua Proficiency Test and the authoritative Xiandai Hanyu Cidian. However, there are some who are seemingly against that position, most prominently Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian and Ministry of Education Mandarin Chinese Dictionary. @RcAlex36 was interested in this issue. Atitarev was in favor of lowercase.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Proper nouns are definitely capitalized. I don't think Atitarev was in favour of lowercase for proper nouns, but just for language names and other things that may be derived from proper nouns. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:40, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung You're saying there's a nuanced position between Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian that Atitarev was going for? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I think so, but I can't be sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

subst:zh-n without param fires abusefilter 2short

Though I can use zh-new, this is still annoying. This seems zh-n only, because people don't use ja-n without param. I also want to delete rfc on QQ糖, kiū is not standard but already in [9]. EdwardAlexanderCrowley (talk) 06:42, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do (I'm not that great with regular expressions). This is definitely not the kind of thing the filter is intended to prevent. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@EdwardAlexanderCrowley: Thanks for letting me know about the abuse filter. I'm afraid I don't know how it works, so thank you, @Chuck Entz, for jumping in. Perhaps @Erutuon might be able to help here?

And about QQ糖, the issue isn't the pronunciation (I think), but the usexes. They're poorly formatted, and it's unclear if those are quotes (which may be copyvio if not attributed). I've opened a discussion at WT:RFC#QQ糖. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@EdwardAlexanderCrowley: Thanks for your edits on QQ糖. After looking more closely at the entry, I think there might be some issues with the definitions as well because they're really vague. Is the first sense supposed to refer to 旺仔QQ糖? There might also be some issues with WT:NAMES that might need to be sorted through. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, 旺仔QQ糖. I found a 2002 article (definitely not 1989), [10]. QQ is a trademark of 旺旺集团 in 1997, [11]. EdwardAlexanderCrowley (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Singapore Hakka

Can you tell which Hakka dialect he is teaching here: [12]? The dog2 (talk) 01:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I can't tell just from listening because Meixian and Dabu aren't too different, but it does say that the man's ancestry is Dabu, so I think we can say it's probably Dabu dialect. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you think we can add some of those terms to the dialectal tables then? The dog2 (talk) 01:28, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, I think so. We already have Singapore Dabu dialect in the tables. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Singapore Cantonese

Since we're at it, I wonder if you can extract any terms for our dialectal tables from this video: [13]. The dog2 (talk) 01:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm not sure if we should be using this. She may be very talented, but I would not consider her a native/heritage speaker. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

She mentions in the video that her mother is Cantonese, so she's mixed. The dog2 (talk) 01:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for not watching it carefully, but I think I'm not sure enough when she's speaking Cantonese and when she's deciding to switch to another language XD. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)