User talk:荒巻モロゾフ

Materials for historical pitch accents

I'm curious what materials you refer to for historical pitch accents, such as the Heian-period notes you recently added to the 片 entry. I have a couple references for modern pitch accents, but nothing for historical, and I am eager to learn more. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:02, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I have looked out it from all entries starting with 片 in Nihon Kokugo Daijiten, and found almost all of them are started with <LL-> before Muromachi period. they are clearly contrasted with ones starting with 方 <HL → HH-> (note tone-sandhi that neutralizes pitch-drops of the first elements). The sole exception was 片方 (katae ← katafe <LHL>), but even it starts with low tone.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 05:55, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Very interesting. The editions I have of the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten do not include any pitch accent information, neither for modern nor for historical. Does your edition include that? If so, what edition is it?

Or is there some other reference that you use for pitch accent details?

Thank you in advance! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

This ones: [1], the 2nd edition. If the ones you have were the concise edition, it might not have accent information because of page volume. Even if you live overseas, where's hard to access the libraries having this, it'll be available online for 16,500 JPY per years.[2]--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 02:14, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! I will look into the online access option that you mention. Very helpful! 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ Any public historical pitch accent resources that I can use? Chuterix (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Yōsuke Igarashi's list is relatively informative amongst freely accessible on the web (see also Igarashi 2016). And also Igarashi 2023 discovered Proto-Japonic tone sandhi rule; this hypothesis can describe smartly how accent of the compound words generated, even if it is incomplete and ignores some more strict accent grouping (this presentation itself is based on Martin 1987, Japanese Language through Time and 秋永 et al. 1997, 『日本語アクセント史総合資料索引篇』, they are rare books and hard to access though).--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

How can I reconstruct PJ accent? @荒巻モロゾフ Chuterix (talk) 01:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Notation in etym at ながに#Okinawan

In your recent addition of the ながに#Okinawan entry, you describe this as derived this from Proto-Ryukyuan *naganeᴮ.

What is the superscript "B" supposed to indicate? Is this explained anywhere? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:27, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Ryukyuan tone class A corresponds the words start with high tone in Heian Kyoto accent (and Western/Southern Kyushu dialects when they were without dependent words), namely: group I-1/2, II-1/2, III-1/2/3 in the Mainland Japanese nouns. Ryukyuan tone class B and C correspond the words start with low tone, namely I-3, II-3/4/5, III-4/5/6/7, however distinction between B and C is not existing in almost all of the Mainland Japanese dialects. Class C indicates tone rising in the first mora (perhaps it suggests some contraction from the Pre-Proto Japonic form), reflects as elongation of the first vowel in Northern Ryukyuan 2-mora nouns. Examples of the accent expression in each dialect are detailed in this paper: Matsumori (2017). And Yōsuke Igarashi's list might be helpful to search the accent class (note that it may contain some mistakes to be corrected).--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Source for "tone rising" in tone class C nouns for Ryukyuan? Chuterix (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm assuming it's based on Uwano (2018)'s "Accent Research of Ryukyu Dialects: Past, Present, and Future: The Diversifying State of Japanese Language Research", →DOI, also quoted in Igarashi 2022's 日琉祖語の韻律体系再建に向けて (download here) (this was 3 years after his JR-COGNATES was published; according to p.c. he had abandoned the project, though he suddenly stopped answering my email questions for some reason \_(._.)_/). Still, I wonder if 死んでいる荒巻モロゾフ used this source. For the time being, I'm sticking with the format of putting accent and tone classes in the section rather than destroying the entire Wiktionary site with completely unverified and/or dubious information. Chuterix (talk) 03:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Izumo dialect PJ *o ~ *u sound correspondances

@荒巻モロゾフ What are the correspondances of PJ *Co ~ *Cu in Izumo besides *mo > mu ~ *mu > me?

I want to (or I wish I can) contact you outside of Wiktionary for PJ talk. Chuterix (talk) 19:04, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

<chiming in.../> I would actually quite like to be able to see and learn from what you all talk about. 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr Well the problem is @荒巻モロゾフ doesn't go online every single day. Chuterix (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

My point is not about timing -- my point is that discussions relevant to Proto-Japonic reconstructions should ideally be kept on Wiktionary, so that other editors can also benefit from them. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:39, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

As far as I have read in 現代日本語方言大辞典 and 日本のことばシリーズ32 島根県のことば, obvious correspondence is only shown when the vowel is proceeded by /m/, where *mu > /me ~ mi/ :: *mo > /mo/ exists. For example:

Standard Japanese	Izumo Japanese	Shuri Okinawan	Tarama Miyako	Note
胸(むね) (mune, “chest”)	ミネ mine [mïne̝] ~ ムネ mune [mɯ̈ne̝]	ンニ Nni	ㇺニ mni	Considered as a compound from *mu(i) «身(む) (mu)» + *nai «根(ね) (ne)»
棟(むね) (mune, “ridge of a roof; building”)	メネ mene [me̝ne̝]	ンニ Nni	ㇺニ mni
昔(むかし) (mukashi, “old times”)	メカシ mekasi [me̝kasï] ~ ミカシ mikasi [mïkasï] ~ モカシ mokasi [mokasï]	ンカシ Nkaši	ㇺカシゥ mkasɿ	モカシ /mokasi/ also in Iwate and Shinshū, and also ンカシ /Nkasi/ in Shimane (『日本国語大辞典』). Dialectal difference (*mukasi ~ *mokasi) even exists in the proto-form.
百足(むかで) (mukade, “centipede”)	ミカデ mikade [mïkade̝]	ンカジ Nkaži	ンカジャ nkadʑa	Note that at least a dialectal difference *mukaNtai ~ *mukaNsai exists.
麦(むぎ) (mugi, “wheat, barley”)	モギ mogi [moɡï]	ムジ muži	ムギゥ mugɿ
剥(む)く (muku, “to peel”)	モク moku [mokɯ̈]	ンチュン Nčun	ムキゥ mukɿ	cf. ミク /miku/ (Tottori, Nagasaki), ミッ /miʔ/ (Kagoshima) (『日本国語大辞典』). Even varied in the protoform (*mok- ~ *muk ~ *mik-)
虫(むし) (mushi, “bug”)	モシ mosi [mosï]	ムシ muši	ムシゥ musɿ
筵(むしろ) (mushiro)	モシロ mosiro [mosïro]	ムシル muširu	ムッス mussu	Many Ryukyuan equivalents omit the second vowel, including ムス /musu/ in Sesoko, Okinawa.

On the patterns where it's preceded by other consonants and zero consonant, they seem to merged into one vowel or free allophones of them.

• Every ウ u (initial *u and *o) are merged to オ [o]

Standard Japanese	Izumo Japanese	Shuri Okinawan	Tarama Miyako
牛(うし) (ushi, “cattle”)	オシ osi [osï]	ウシ ʔuši	ウシゥ usɿ
歌(うた) (uta, “song”)	オタ ota [ota]	ウタ ʔuta	ウタ uta
馬(うま) (uma, “horse”)	オマ oma [oma]	ンマ Nma	ㇺマ mma
売(う)る (uru, “to sell”)	オー oː [oː]	ウユン ujuN	ッヴィゥ vvɿ

• The equivalents of the standard ク ku and グ gu are ク [kɯ̈] and グ [ɡɯ̈]
• The equivalents of the standard シ shi and ス su are merged into シ [sï], and ジ ji and ズ zu are merged into ジ [ᵈzï], in the initial position.
  • However they may keep the difference in the medial, at least there is one example クソー [kɯ̥̈soː] (薬(くすり) (kusuri), note that dialectal form クソリ kusori is distributed in Hokuriku, Tōhoku and Hokkaidō)
• The equivalents of the standard チ chi and ツ tsu are merged into チ [tsï]
• The equivalents of the standard ヌ nu have 2 patterns ニ [nï] and ノ [no], perhaps reflection of some pre-historical language but they don't correspond clearly with Ryukyuans.

Standard Japanese	Izumo Japanese	Shuri Okinawan	Tarama Miyako	Note
縫(ぬ)う (nū, “to sew”)	ノー noː [noː]	(ノーユン noːjuN «綯(な)う (nau)»)	ヌー nuː
糠(ぬか) (nuka, “bran; chaff”)	ニカ nika [nïka] ~ ネカ neka [ne̝ka]	ヌカ nuka	ヌカ nuka ~ ㇺカ mka	cf. ムカ /muka/ (distributed sporadically in Nagano, San'in, Fukuoka), ノカ /noka/ (widely distributed in Tōhoku, Niigata, Nagano, etc.).[3][4] Even varied in the protoform (*muka ~ *nuka ~ *noka, something like **mʲoka might be the pre-protoform).
脱(ぬ)ぐ (nugu, “to take off”)	ニグ nigu [nïɡɯ̈]	ヌジュン nužuN	ンギゥ ngɿ
盗(ぬす)む (nusumu, “to steal”)	ノシン nosiN [nosïɴ]	ヌスムン nusumuN	ヌシゥㇺ nusɿm
塗(ぬ)る (nuru, “to paint, to varnish”)	ノー noː [noː]	ヌユン nujuN	ヌㇽ nul
濡(ぬ)れる (nureru, “to get wet”)	ノレー noreː [nore̝ː]	ンディユン NdijuN ~ ンリーン NriːN	ㇺニㇽ mnil	Note m/n alternation in Miyako.
犬(いぬ) (inu, “dog”)	エノ eno [e̝no]	イン ʔiN	イナ ina ~ イン in	cf. イノ /ino/, エノ /eno/ (widely distributed Hokuriku and Tōhoku), エンナ /enna/ (distributed across Toyama and Niigata), イニ /ini/ (Iwate, Fukui, Hida) (『日本国語大辞典』). The second vowel is highly diverse.

• The equivalents of the standard フ fu are フ [ɸɯ̈]
  • The dakuon equivalent ブ bu is ボ [bo] in the initial, ビ ~ ベ [bï ~ be̝] in the non-initial. (e.g. ボタ [bota] «豚(ぶた) (buta)», ボチカー [botsïkaː] «ぶつかる (butsukaru)», チビシ [tsïbïsï] «潰(つぶ)す (tsubusu)», カベー [kabe̝ː] «被(かぶ)る (kaburu)»)
• The equivalents of the standard ユ yu turn into イ [ï] (e.g. イ [ï] «湯(ゆ) (yu)», イーフィ [ïːɸï] «夕日(ゆうひ) (yūhi)», イキ [ïkˢï] «雪(ゆき) (yuki)»)
• リ ri and ル ru at the non-initial positions turn into elongation of preceding vowel [ː], also [ï] when it was pronounced politely.
  • Initial /r/ never exists in native Japanese word though, one example of 留守(るす)にする (rusu ni suru) with two variants リシニシー [rïsï̥nïsïː] and ロシニシー [rosï̥nïsïː] shows it can become [rï ~ ro].

Dialects with such phonetics seem to be distributed in western Tottori and eastern Shimane, or Unpaku dialect other than Oki islands.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 08:38, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

What about Tohoku? @荒巻モロゾフ Chuterix (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I am curious about the shift in verb forms exhibited in カベー « 被る. Is there any chance that there was an intermediate change in conjugation paradigm, from 四段 to 下二段? Perhaps reanalyzing the -buru ending as the regular adnominal for a 下二段 verb, then shifting it to -beru? I cannot think of a good reason for the -uru ending to correlate with an -ē ending, without some catalyst like a 下二段 pattern, and we see a partially-similar phonetic development in ノレー «　濡れる. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix Some Tōhoku dialects like Tsugaru and Akita have similar phonetics on the surface (except distinction between /e/ and /ɛ/ (< /ai/)), however they lack change in the direction from /u/ to /o/. Though some of the vocabulary allude to the existence of another Japonic substrate, they are only sporadic and lexical.

@Eirikr Nope, that is a simple regular change. Every medial and final ブ bu change into ビ bi ~ ベ be in Izumo. [ï] and [e̝] are different vowel, but when they are preceded by [b] or [m] (as far as I know), they are almost regarded as allophone. There is shift from 下二段 to 四段, but the opposite change does not exist.[5]--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 01:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, hmm... <nodding/>

I note that that Biglobe site has some very interesting content comparing current Izumo-ben and mainstream Japanese, but it says nothing about historical changes. I respect that there doesn't seem to be any shift in 四段 verbs to other paradigms in the current view. I wonder if any such changes are observable in the past?

For instance, this section talks about how verb-final る drops out, causing elongation of the preceding vowel. This quite clearly explains the latter part of the ノレー « ぬれる shift, while the landing page here mentions that there is also a 『「ぬ」→「に」「の」』 pattern, which explains the front part of that same verb pair.

In addition to that 『「ぬ」→「に」「の」』 pattern, the landing page also mentions a 『「ぶ」→「び」』 shift, in accordance with what you have above. The phones /u/ and /i/ aren't all that far apart (both close vowels, with the Japonic realization of /u/ already more central and closer to /i/ in articulation), and we already see these collapsing in many Japonic varieties with the so-called Yotsugana shifts.

... but I cannot find anything about /u/ → /e/. Do you have any more information about that? 興味深いと思いますし、好奇心がわいています。（＾＾） ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:33, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

2.4b accent

Where are you getting the RH accent from? No source I have describes this. Chuterix (talk) 11:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ You suddenly disappeared. I suppose for 2.4a accent (pR C) it would be RH, 2.4b (pR B) becomes LH, 2.5a accent (pR C) it would ne RF, otherwise 2.5b LF. Where are your sources for this?

Why do important Wiktionarians just disappear (usually for a long time or permanently) without any warning whatsoever? Chuterix (talk) 12:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ And what about 3 syllable words? Does tone rise in second mora? I'm very confused. Chuterix (talk) 12:03, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Why u suddenly dissapear? Chuterix (talk) 11:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Why Japanese wiktionarian suddenly disappear without warning? I know u have jobs, but at least tell us ur leaving like Fumiko did in この

I know ur not obligated to do this. But there are many crucial issues that u r yet to explain. Chuterix (talk) 11:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Seriously, what happened to you? Are you riding some boat that probably will go on forever? Did you unexpectedly pass? Or more seriously, did some work stop you from accessing Wikimedia? Hello? (This is not mandatory; ignore me all you want, but the Proto-Japonic accent will now be questionable in terms such as なば if you do not answer us.) Chuterix (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Shimabukuro 2007 reconstructs disyllabic C tone class ryukyuan terms with LHF ~ LHH-l accent. But where tf did you disappear to? Even I was still able to get responses from Natsuko Nakagawa (Southern Ryukyuanist) even after she had enough. WHERE IN THE WORLD ARE YOU??? Chuterix (talk) 21:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

And still Shimabukuro uses long vowels in pR; clearly an innovation in Northern Ryukyuan (see Pellard 2023). Chuterix (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Your departure without warning

I think it's completely inappropriate to leave Wiktionary (or Wikimedis) without any warning whatsoever? Please come back. Why did you suddenly dissappear? It's not like you went into an argument like この or had your productive edits constantly reverted. Also notifying @Eirikr and @Fish bowl. Chuterix (talk) 12:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix: what the actual fuck? wiktionary isnt a job; stop harassing mx. aramaki. —Fish bowl (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Duh; it's not a job. But still strange when a user I find to be "crucial" leaves. Chuterix (talk) 12:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Anyways, if he comes back to find I change his pJ *năNpá to *nanpa (accent class 2.4a) (see なば) and he's not happy with it, I will not feel bad for hir. Chuterix (talk) 12:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

i mean leave without warning. Chuterix (talk) 13:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix, as I've told you before, and as you should be well aware: Wiktionary is a volunteer project. Unless a given user is on the MediaWiki payroll (which, as far as I'm aware, doesn't include any of us regular contributors), they are donating their time and effort of their own volition. They are beholden to the community standards of conduct, and if they violate these standards, they will be blocked. Beyond that scope, they are not beholden to the needs and desires of other users.

Key point you seem to be missing: "a user I find to be “crucial”". This is about your needs and wants. Please reflect on that, sort yourself out, and as @Fish bowl said, stop harassing users to try to pressure them into editing.

Harassment goes against our community standards. If you continue to harass other users like this, you will be blocked. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• "stop harassing users to try to pressure them into editing."

They are already non-existent.

• "If you continue to harass other users like this,"

Not an excuse, but this is one person "I'm dealing with". I know when a user is dead account (not dead IRL) when their last edit was more than a year ago. Chuterix (talk) 18:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix — Regardless of whether a user is contributing or not, posting recurring pings like this (both on the user's talk page itself, and elsewhere while also explicitly pinging them), with language like you've been using, does constitute harassment.

Please stop. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

revisiting: I noticed after he edited 虎 in May 31 2022 (Central time), he disappeared for 6 months until he returned to criticize OK 一等 borrowing to Japanese 片. May this be a relation to such? Chuterix (talk) 12:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

e

Chuterix (talk) 14:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chuterix Please cease with that "hiding" activity by trying to ping a user. Thank you. Kwékwlos (talk) 18:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos, thank you for expressing your concern. I have blocked Chuterix from editing this page for 3 months. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chuterix, I have blocked you from editing this page, as you continue to harass this user, despite me having explained to you above that your pattern of posting here constitutes harassment, and that this is inappropriate behavior. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chuterix, I have deleted the User:荒巻モロゾフ you created (twice), as this is also entirely inappropriate -- no one should be creating user pages for other users in the first place, let alone when the creating user has been harassing the other user. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

where r u

where did u go Chuterix (talk) 00:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

when will the edit count of 4,188 on ur global account increase Chuterix (talk) 00:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ, if you have any offsite account, then I am happy to talk to you like normal. Chuterix (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ WHERE ARE YOU. Chuterix (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Please stop spamming. You have been warned many times already. Thank you. Kwékwlos (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)