Talk:kiyaw-kiyaw

Etymology

@Mlgc1998 The Taiwanese-Japanese dictionary doesn't give at all any definition of "incessant" to "攪攪", right? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Ogawa (1932) 臺日大辭典 only redirects back "攪攪" to "攪", so an adverb form of it is not explicitly defined by that book. I got the "incessant" definition from Chan-Yap (1980) and Zorc (1981) citing her work, as an adverb to "crying" in that "incessant crying" phrase. Ogawa (1932) 臺日大辭典's main aid there is mostly to provide the sinograph chars for the kiaù-kiaù that Chan-Yap (1980) was referring to that she couldn't find the chars for. Also, do note Chan-Yap (1980) is using her own system of tone marks there, which I vaguely remember she either explained in some part of her paper or if not, I must've analyzed before what her diacritics refer to by comparing to POJ/TL tones the other entries in her paper displaying use of her diacritics mapping to what they're supposed to be in POJ/TL. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The way I understand it is that the redirect means that "攪攪" and "攪" mean the same thing, right? Just confirming if we understand it the same way. Also, I think better not use Chan-Yap (1980) and Zorc (1981) as a source for what Hokkien words mean, since that's not what they're for, that's not their expertise. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser "same" here is a very ambiguous word. They could have intended "similar" and/or "same" and that is basically part of the design of that book the editor must've intended, but even if it were the exact same part of speech usage, another part of speech could come from one of the forms and just mean the way it does from that part of speech, so the usage that Chan-Yap (1980) is originally describing is that of an adverb form using perhaps that she meant 攪 as "攪攪", which Ogawa (1932) 臺日大辭典 has a 2nd definition referring to that in Japanese: "邪魔する。妨げる。" with the sample phrase translation from Taiwanese Hokkien to Japanese "攪你 = お邪魔様。", which ChhoeTaigi translates the definition in Taiwanese Hokkien as "(2)麻煩人，攪擾。"

For Chan-Yap (1980) and Zorc's CEDOF, the works they made are trying to identify Hokkien loanwords in Tagalog, which is what the etymology section is trying to explain as well. Now them not exactly being great at Hokkien in the best accurate way possible so far means their choice of spelling and words might not always be completely accurate so kind of like incomplete paintings of what the reality of the origin back then must've been, but the missing puzzle pieces that lacked are also now somewhat some of them attainable with what's available with current resources and in wikt itself, so these can be used to build the etymology section of our entries here in wikt. If things are iffy, perhaps we should just be more descriptive of what's basically available as uncemented bricks to an incomplete wall that may fit or not, so I'm trying to word the etym there as well to what we basically have and be flexible in mindset. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC)