Talk:青鮫

Sources that you claimed to denote "compoundness

@Eirikr Daijisen gets that "X" in the kanji headword to denote it properly, as opposed to the double hyphen (=), so maybe it works. ばかFumiko￥^talk 12:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're seeing. The only X I see in the Daijisen entry here is the one in the kanji spelling, to denote a seldom-used kanji:

あお‐ざめ〔あを‐〕【青×鮫】

The important piece for etymologies is the hyphen in the kana spelling, showing a compound boundary between あお and ざめ.

The Daijirin entry on that same page doesn't show compound boundaries, but my local copy of Daijirin does:

あお-ざめ ｱｦ- [0] 【青鮫】

KDJ displays this in a similar fashion:

あお‐ざめ【青鮫】

If we look up the constituent pieces after allowing for rendaku, we find that both あお and さめ are indeed terms. The formation of あおざめ from あお + さめ is a pretty straightforward compound.

Re: your edit comment, hyphenation in all entry headwords I've seen shows compound boundaries. You mentioned the spelling 海鼠 (“sea cucumber”). I see three readings for that spelling in the KDJ:

• かい‐そ【海鼠】: regular on'yomi, and a compound (probably original to Chinese) of 海 (kai, “sea, ocean”) + 鼠 (so, “mouse, rat”).
• こ【海鼠】: jukujikun, and integral (non-compound) as a single syllable. Probably cognate with 子 (ko, “child; small thing”), similar to the ko ending in 蚕 (kaiko, “silkworm”), which is also read as just 蚕 (ko).
• なま‐こ【海鼠】: jukujikun, and a compound of 生 (nama) + 海鼠 (ko, see above).

You also mentioned the spelling 案山子 (“scarecrow”). I see six readings for this in the KDJ:

• あんざん‐し【案山子】: regular on'yomi, presented as a compound of 案山 (anzan) + 子 (shi). The JA WP article section at ja:かかし#名称 has an explanation from 1845 about the spelling, wherein 案山 (anzan) might be the name of a mountain, but I haven't yet read that text in any detail.
• かかし【案山子・鹿驚】: jukujikun, not a compouond. Formerly kagashi, the 連用形 (ren'yōkei) of verb kagasu, archaic causative of 嗅ぐ (kagu, “to smell something, to sniff something”), from the practice of using skewered game meat as part of scarecrows for the way the smell of the meat in combination with the scarecrow shape would help keep certain animals away
• かがせ【案山子】: see above, same derivation as kakashi.
• そおず【案山子】: shift from sōdo below, not a compound.
• そおど【案山子】: shift from older sohodo. Not presented as a compound. Etymology unclear, with one suggested derivation as a compound of そほ (soho), modern そぼ (sobo) in certain other terms, related to ideas of sop, sopping wet from the way the scarecrow stays in the field even when it rains, with the ど (do) on the end coming from 人 (hito, “person”), similar to the phonetic development of do in terms like 仲人 (nakōdo, “mediator, go-between”, from naka + -bito), or 商人 (akindo, “businessperson, merchant”, from aki + -bito). But the KDJ entry makes it clear that this is speculation, and the term is presented as an integral, non-compound, term.
• そほど【案山子】: archaic for sōdo above, not a compound.

The kanji spelling is largely irrelevant for etymologies. Look instead to how the kana is represented, and whether the dictionary shows any hyphens or gaps between specific kana. Every dictionary I've looked at that has any such hyphenation or spacing in the kana spellings of headwords uses that to indicate the boundaries between compounding elements. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:44, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

RFV discussion: May 2017–July 2020

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青鮫

Rfv-sense ばかFumiko￥^talk 12:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be included as such in CC-CEDICT (not that it means much for our purposes). Taiwan's Ministry of Education dictionary seems to describe something more specific. —suzukaze (t・c) 22:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

(google:"青鮫的" has a really feeble amount of hits...) —suzukaze (t・c) 22:37, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I've added some possible citations in Citations:青鮫. The first one is a little mention-y though. From the looks of it, the sense should be changed to something more specific, but it's unclear what it should be. It's some kind of shark for sure, but I'm not sure if it's Isurus oxyrinchus like in Japanese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:05, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

In Hong Kong, it might refer to Scomberomorus sinensis, per this source. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

In Taiwan, it's a kind of shark, defined as Isuropsis (= Isurus), per this source. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• RFV failed for the rfv-ed sense "ferocious sea fish". Added "a kind of shark" as a new sense based on the citations. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)