Talk:შქერი

@კვარია, I found dialectal Armenian լաշի (laši, “rhododendron”) used in Hamshen and Trapizon. I believe it could be borrowed from Zan. Is ლე- (le-) in ლეშკერი (lešḳeri), ლეშკი (lešḳi) an inner-Georgian thing? --Vahag (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: The words with le- are Rachian, so could be a Svanism, I guess? I know in Megrelian toponyms le-/la- are considered to be Svanisms. In Laz there are (მ)შქერი, ბშქერი, ფშქერი, მშ(კ)ერი ((m)şkeri, bşkeri, pşkeri, mş(ǩ)eri). I'm guessing that's a coincidence კვარია (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@კვარია: I find ლეშხი (lešxi) in Javakhuri dialect: [1], [2]. If its gloss დეკა (deḳa) is not a mistake, then we have an alternative form of შქერი (škeri) with the same ლე- (le-) prefix away from Svan areas and close to Armenia. Vahag (talk) 13:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: This has to be an unrelated word imho, or at least I'm struggling to see how this transformation could have happened within Georgian itself. Ghlonti this word is glossed as new/growing branch/twig/leaf; Petasites hybridus. The meaning of დეკა (deḳa) must exist too, it's just not in Ghlonti (he doesn't have a lot of lemmas from Javakheti and Meskheti). კვარია (talk) 14:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

This is all very confusing. Here on page 142 they list Javakhuri ლეშხი (lešxi) with some other rhododendron forms that you miss. Here on page 11 they gloss Guria and Racha ლეშხი (lešxi) together with დიყა (diq̇a) as Heracleum, whereas according to Maqashvili it is Petasites. There is an article მაჭავარიანი, ლექსემა „ლეშხის“ ეტიმოლოგია. ეტიმოლოგიური ძიებანი, ტ. XII თბილისი, 2016, but I don't have it. Vahag (talk) 14:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmm... the meanings of this word is all over the place. I've been looking for that article (literally downloaded the entire ice.ge :p), but no success thus far. კვარია (talk) 10:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

лохотрон

@კვარია, Vahagn Petrosyan: Is there are a chance to connect Russian лох (lox, “oleaster”) and thence the Ukrainian and Belarusian forms? According to the review of the Elaeagnus genus in the USSR I posted at the Russian page (page 119) and will find with my compatriot Elbakyan, the peak northwestern distribution is at the confluence between the rivers Эмба and its tributary Темир (Temir) and the Mangyshlak Peninsula, from there spreading over the Caucasus, and with such a distribution native origin or even Polish origin as suggested by {{R:uk:ESUM|лох|293|3}} is less verisimile than a borrowing, as with so many Russian plant names (and this cannot be proven to be old). The Armenian and Greek translations of rhododendron and oleander, if not oleaster, have some parallels, and the leave shapes, leave sizes and overall sizes of the rhododendra and oleasters are strikingly similar, comparing here Rhododendron ponticum and Elaeagnus angustifolia, and surely for a new plant one transferred the names of old ones. There will be North Caucasian languages in between the Russian and the Kartvelian forms here. Fay Freak (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm confused, are you suggesting Russian лох (lox, “oleaster”) is possibly related to Proto-Kartvelian *šor-? If so, how is the Proto-Kartvelian term related to spellings/translations of rhododendron and oleander in Armenian and Greek? Anyhow this might interest you: the Kartvelian root was dubbed "Nostratic" by Starostin, who connects it to Slavic сорбалина (sorbalina) among other "cognates". კვარია (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes. We already got the /l/ and /o/, and was the r perhaps ɣ somewhere? Like in guttural r (which also exists in some regio- or idiolects of Russian, rarely recognized because of the dominance of alveolar r in Slavic), but all of the Kartveli velars and uvulars would have the outcome х (x) in Southern Russian dialects. Oleander and oleaster are botanically unrelated, but superficially similar, as well as rhododendron juxtaposed with either, and the ancient peoples could have confused these peripherals plants, or “transferred” names. So we should look at all three complexes for combinations. And why would Russians know about oleaster or oleander or rhododendron? They all begin in the Caucasus. Fay Freak (talk) 13:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: if you mean Armenian լաշի (laši) and Georgian ლეშკერი (lešḳeri), ლეშკი (lešḳi), then they are isolated from Russian and do not fit in form and meaning. My philological digging points to an origin in the North-Western Caspian. Kalmyk has лох (lox) glossed as "алоэ весеннее", which I don't what it is. Vahag (talk) 22:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: It is a fanciful translation of the vera part of Aloe vera by reason of vēr meaning the season “spring” (actual “spring aloe” would be with the epithet vē̆rnāle). This is also in a table with Aloe vera in page 59 of the 1959 2nd edition of Китайская Народная Медицина by Вадим Габриэлевич Вогралик, the son of Габриэль Францевич Вогралик.

As de.Wikipedia informs us about Latinum popinarium: “Wegen der langen Beziehung der Medizin zur lateinischen Sprache ist diese Erscheinung verstärkt im Gesundheitswesen anzutreffen.” Of course the Latin treatment was even coarser amongst USSR medicians.

An equation of silverberry with aloe vera and is also great, in view of the cosmetical and folk-medical uses of both lotional plants. We have cornered лох, if not pinned down.

The said medical book transcribes the Chinese name with a phonetic form лу-хуй obviously relating our Russian and Kalmyk word, Mandarin 蘆薈／芦荟 (lúhuì), for which we have an etymology affording us a broader context. Fay Freak (talk) 01:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)