Talk:тараба
Latest comment: 5 years ago by Vahagn Petrosyan
Is this related to zeriba? - -sche (discuss) 17:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- From Nişanyan I have the one دروازه (darvâze, “gate”), but both are unsatisfying. The form *دَرَّابَة (*darrāba) also given by Nişanyan, and by HJP, seems to lack in Arabic (at least in notable popularity), and is strange, does not fit the meaning of what you else find in the root د ر ب (d r b). But Akkadian 𒉣𒇬 (/tarbāṣu/) means “corral, pen”. Nişanyan derives the Persian دروازه (darvâze, “gate”) from this Akkadian, but I do not understand the leaps in form and meaning. Then we have Old Armenian դարպաս (darpas, “gate”) which is unsolved. Then we have Ugaritic 𐎚𐎗𐎁𐎕 (trbṣ, “stable”), and we have Aramaic תַּרְחִּיצָא (tarbīṣā) / תַּרְחָּצָא (ṭarbāṣā) / ܬܰܪܒܳܨܳܐ (ṭarbāṣā, “courtyard”), allegedly, presumably, from Akkadian. To round the picture, I want to know where دَرَابَزِين (darābazīn), دَرْبَزِين (darbazīn, “balustrade, railing”), (copious pictures in image search), is from. Ottoman Turkish dictionaries have not let me obtain anything for this “colloquial” taraba. @Vahagn Petrosyan, -sche, Profes.I. Fay Freak (talk) 04:09, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I suspect there is a lot of phono-semantic matching being carried out on multiple layers of transmission, making it a regionally influenced word. For starters there is the Sumerian 𒉣𒇬 (/tur/, “animal stall, place of holding; a blocked off area, closed in space”), the Proto-Semitic *D-W-R (“a round area, a court, a vicinity around or circling an area, a perimeter”), and the Proto-Indo-European *dʰwer- (“doorway, door, gate”), also Persian در with the sense of court or courtyard archaically. The word Akkadian 𒉣𒇬 (/tarbāṣu/) stems from the Proto-Semitic *r-b-ṣ́- (“to hold animals, to sit them or keep them in place, to store them in a pen or in a closed off space”) found as the Arabic رَبَضَ (rabaḍa). There should also be noted the other readings/spellings of the Akkadian 𒋻𒉺𒍪 (tar-pa-zu; tar-pa-su2; tar-ba2-zu; tar-ba2-su2 /tarpazu, tarpasu, tarbazu, tarbasu/), 𒋻 (/tar; dar/) can also render /darpazu, darpasu, darbazu, darbasu/; any combination of which might have been an influence in some of the suspected descendants. I hope some of these pieces of data will help make at the very least a more informed direction on how to proceed in connecting these similar terms. Profes.I. (talk) 12:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Profes.I. But what strikes me particularly is that we miss the Turkish etymon. I have now searched Google Books meticulously and there are no zero mentions of such a Turkish word pre-1930, even more there seems to be no Turkish use, and only three Turkish hits for “tarabalar” there whatsoever and also nothing on the web, pretty weak for a word that means “fence”; perhaps this strange article where an exhibition is named so by an artist allegedly to metaphorically mean a fence between people. What I have found now is a statement by Alexandru Cihac 1879 on page 619 of the second volume of his Romanian dictionary s.v. tarábă: “nous n’avons pu trouver l’etymon turc” (we could not find the Turkish etymon). Turkish taraba has been created by @Sae1962; I ping also @Anylai and @Lambiam. As I see, this “Turkish” word will need to be deleted. I was solving Category:Ottoman Turkish terms needing native script and already removed references to several ghost words (as for example the alleged Turkish etymon of the Romance words for “shoe”, Talk:zapato, on a dozen of pages). These Balkan words Bulgarian та̀ра̀ба (tàràba), Macedonian тараба (taraba), Serbo-Croatian та̀раба, Romanian tarábă must be of a different stock and are without etymology since the dictionaries relate it to various Turkish nonce words, ***taraba, and also **tarab and **daraba and others. Fay Freak (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, I think Ottoman Turkish دروازه (darvâze, “gate”) is not the source to any of these. The equivalent Turkish word is daraba (“fence, shutter”) and it cannot derive from darvâze either. A different phonosemantic matching word seems to be trabzan (“handrail”) which is akin Persian داربزين (dārbazīn). --Anylai (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Profes.I. But what strikes me particularly is that we miss the Turkish etymon. I have now searched Google Books meticulously and there are no zero mentions of such a Turkish word pre-1930, even more there seems to be no Turkish use, and only three Turkish hits for “tarabalar” there whatsoever and also nothing on the web, pretty weak for a word that means “fence”; perhaps this strange article where an exhibition is named so by an artist allegedly to metaphorically mean a fence between people. What I have found now is a statement by Alexandru Cihac 1879 on page 619 of the second volume of his Romanian dictionary s.v. tarábă: “nous n’avons pu trouver l’etymon turc” (we could not find the Turkish etymon). Turkish taraba has been created by @Sae1962; I ping also @Anylai and @Lambiam. As I see, this “Turkish” word will need to be deleted. I was solving Category:Ottoman Turkish terms needing native script and already removed references to several ghost words (as for example the alleged Turkish etymon of the Romance words for “shoe”, Talk:zapato, on a dozen of pages). These Balkan words Bulgarian та̀ра̀ба (tàràba), Macedonian тараба (taraba), Serbo-Croatian та̀раба, Romanian tarábă must be of a different stock and are without etymology since the dictionaries relate it to various Turkish nonce words, ***taraba, and also **tarab and **daraba and others. Fay Freak (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I suspect there is a lot of phono-semantic matching being carried out on multiple layers of transmission, making it a regionally influenced word. For starters there is the Sumerian 𒉣𒇬 (/tur/, “animal stall, place of holding; a blocked off area, closed in space”), the Proto-Semitic *D-W-R (“a round area, a court, a vicinity around or circling an area, a perimeter”), and the Proto-Indo-European *dʰwer- (“doorway, door, gate”), also Persian در with the sense of court or courtyard archaically. The word Akkadian 𒉣𒇬 (/tarbāṣu/) stems from the Proto-Semitic *r-b-ṣ́- (“to hold animals, to sit them or keep them in place, to store them in a pen or in a closed off space”) found as the Arabic رَبَضَ (rabaḍa). There should also be noted the other readings/spellings of the Akkadian 𒋻𒉺𒍪 (tar-pa-zu; tar-pa-su2; tar-ba2-zu; tar-ba2-su2 /tarpazu, tarpasu, tarbazu, tarbasu/), 𒋻 (/tar; dar/) can also render /darpazu, darpasu, darbazu, darbasu/; any combination of which might have been an influence in some of the suspected descendants. I hope some of these pieces of data will help make at the very least a more informed direction on how to proceed in connecting these similar terms. Profes.I. (talk) 12:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Although Ottoman linguistic and culturally influence over the Balkans is far from my area of expertise perhaps these will help in some capacity: [1], [2], and [3]; in particular entries like: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. Perhaps it is we have the wrong Ottoman word; yes they are ultimately from Persian دروازه (dervaze, “gate”), yes the form دروازه (dervaze, “gate”) is a validly attested loanword in Ottoman, but the Balkan terms come instead from one of its other attested derivatives within Ottoman, a currently unacknowledged secondary Ottoman development that we have left unlisted in the chain of transmission. Profes.I. (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Here are three uses that attest to the existence of the word in Turkish: [10], [11], [12]. It may be a regional word, not used in Istanbul Turkish. --Lambiam 09:32, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Turkish dialectal taraba is the source of the Balkan terms. See it now with references. Its Arabic etymon too is dialectal, hence Fay Freak couldn't find it. I can't judge whether there is ultimately a connection with Persian دروازه (darvâze). As for the latter, it should probably be explained within Iranian: see here, pages 140–141. --Vahag (talk) 13:57, 8 June 2019 (UTC)