Reconstruction talk:Proto-Turkic/k(i)aya

Should this be moved to *kada or *kaya?

Self-explanatory title, but not so easy to answer. Clauson's dictionary takes the *kada stance, a deverbal from *kad- (kaymak), taking the Mongolic forms (*kada) for comparison. Räsänen uses *kaya. Doerfer absolutely denies a connection with Mongolic, Sevortyan agrees with Doerfer, but disagrees with Clauson with his etymology. There's also a possible Samoyedic connection (*koəjə). Authors of the EDAL on the other hand go for a "y-dialect" approach.

Vowel length is also an issue. Doerfer and Clauson goes for ka.ya:, Sevortyan uses *ka:.ya, Räsänen forgoes vowel length entirely while EDAL uses a *-ia- diphtong.

Basically, there is no consensus. Which hypothesis should this page represent? @Yorınçga573, @BurakD53, @Blueskies006, @Ardahan Karabağ

Sources to consider:

• Doerfer, Gerhard (1963) “269. قدا (qadā) 'Fels'”, in Türkische und mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen [Turkic and Mongolian Elements in New Persian] (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur: Veröffentlichungen der Orientalischen Kommission)‎^[1] (in German), volume 1, Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner Verlag, pages 393-394
• Doerfer, Gerhard (1967) “1591. قياچى (qayāčï) 'Felsenkletterer, Bergsteiger'”, in Türkische und mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen [Turkic and Mongolian Elements in New Persian] (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur: Veröffentlichungen der Orientalischen Kommission)‎^[2] (in German), volume 3, Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner Verlag, pages 565-566
• “ӃА:ЙА”, in Etimologičeskij slovarʹ tjurkskix jazykov [Etymological Dictionary of Turkic Languages] (in Russian), volume 5, Moscow, 1974–, pages 198-199
• Clauson, Gerard (1972) “kaya:”, in An Etymological Dictionary of pre-thirteenth-century Turkish, Oxford: Clarendon Press, pages 674-675
• Räsänen, Martti (1969) “kaja 'Felsen'”, in Versuch eines etymologischen Wörterbuchs der Türksprachen (in German), Helsinki: Suomalais-ugrilainen seura, page 221
• Starostin, Sergei, Dybo, Anna, Mudrak, Oleg (2003) “*K(i)aja (?)”, in Etymological dictionary of the Altaic languages (Handbuch der Orientalistik; VIII.8), Leiden, New York, Köln: E.J. Brill

AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 16:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

We should move it to *kaya, there isn't enough evidence (outside of the potential Mongolic cognate) to prove *kad- -> *kada (esp given the suffix) but it should be included in the etymology section of the new page regardless.

As for the vowel length, is there any proof of it? Neither Sakha or Turkmen has it so I think it should be short. Yorınçga573 (talk) 19:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

We can move it to *kāya or *kaya. I don't even think that diphtongs existed in Proto-Turkic anymore. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 13:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)