Reconstruction talk:Proto-Turkic/bugday

On the reconstruction

I have two questions regarding the current reconstruction

1. Why is the vowel in the first syllable an *-o- and not an *-u- when that's what every Turkic descendant is pointing toward?
2. Why is there a secondary vowel *-u-, I think the reason Mongolic has it is due to the consonant cluster *-xd- that'd otherwise form.

Yorınçga573 (talk) 08:41, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

1. I think the reason to reconstruct *-o- instead of *-u- is rooted in Chuvash reflexes; compare pTurkic *koŋur and Chuvash хӑмӑр (hămăr), pT *bog- & Cv пӑв (păv), pT *boĺ & Cv *bӑlč (*bălč) (thus Hungarian búcsú, giving -ú-, akin to búra) and so on. I am not a linguist, and can only hypothesize, but pT *-o- on onset seems to yield Cv -ӑ-; but there exists many counter examples to this. I could not find any paper on pTurkic > Chuvash sound correspondences to support this claim, do you know or can contribute any?

2. In Róna-Tas, András, Berta, Árpád, Károly, László (2011) West Old Turkic: Turkic Loanwords in Hungarian (Turcologica; 84), Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, page 186, Róna-Tas gives a West Old Turkic *buyzai < *buyδay < Proto-Turkic *bugday. Other sources I used also use variants of this, *buγdaj, *bugda-, *bud(-a)γay etc. I do not know where this *boguday or *bogu-day (form I replaced in nearly all of descendant pages) came to be, no source was given in any of them. I just rolled with it since it was easier to do that. AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 09:50, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Chuvash *-u- evolves to -ă- you can find it in Agyagasi's book as well as Rona-Tas's; *-o- evolves generally to -u- then may evolve to -ă- as stated in Agyagasi (2019) Chuvash Historical Phonetics page 124:

• As the original close vowels of early Middle Chuvash were reduced in consequence of the general tendency of the Middle Chuvash vowels to become closer (see Róna-Tas 1975: 142), it will not be without foundation to suppose that by the time of the Mongolian invasion Late Old Chuvash had been the Volga Bulgarian dialect in which the o had already turned into u – and underwent reduction together with the original u sounds.

I think it may be best to move it to *bugday instead given internal development, what do you think though? Yorınçga573 (talk) 10:01, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it would be best to move this page to *bugday. AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 10:17, 2 February 2024 (UTC)