Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/grěxovьnъ

Proto-Slavic

@User:Sławobóg Anikin writes that although this word was strongly influenced by the Church Slavonic language, it itself is very archaic and existed in the pre-Christian era of the Slavs, possibly the late Proto-Slavic era.

Сильное ц.-слав. влияние испытали рус. грѣхо́вный <...> Однако слав. *grěšьnъ(jь), *grěšьnikъ (-ica) и тем более архаичное *grěxovьnъ(jь) существовали и в дохристианскую (возможно, и в прасл.) эпоху.

Strong Church Slavonic influence was experienced by Russian грѣхо́вный <...> However, the Slavic *grěšьnъ(jь), *grěšьnikъ (-ica) and even more so the archaic *grěxovьnъ(jь) existed in the pre-Christian (perhaps in the Proto-Slavic) era as well.

ZomBear (talk) 18:21, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@ZomBear (1) The meaning is wrong, there was no such thing like "sin" in pre-Christian Slavs, (2) Anikin seems to ignore that many religious terms related to christianity were forged in OCS and then borrowed into other Slavic languages, (3) if it is late Proto-Slavic, then probably South Slavic only. Summoning @Thadh. Sławobóg (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree, this is almost definitely an OCS borrowing into OES. Thadh (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that can be confirmed by the dictionary of Zaliznyak 2019: 448. I also think that this is not borrowing. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes: This only proves that this word existed in OES, not that it's inherited from PS. Thadh (talk) 20:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

No. This is directly inherited from the accent paradigm b. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg: Sorry for entering the discussion, as I can't contribute to the etymology of the particular word (it may have easily be an OCS innovation as Slawobog says). However, this claim about the lack of "sinness" in pre-Christians is so ludicrous that I couldn't stop myself from commenting. It is 110% certain that pagans had some comprehension of guilt, moral, and justice way before Christianity came about. Elements of moral code and self-reflection are attested among hundreds of "primitive" cultures (if not all of them). Even non-human animals have rudimentary sense of guilt and regret. I have no idea what background you come from, Slawobog, but get a grip of yourself! Your claims are ridiculous.

If it's you again Bezimen, you don't understand anything, again. Meaning of sin is not the same as the meaning of guilt, justice, morality, etc. Concept of sin didn't exist in Slavic, Germanic, or Greek religion (Greeks knew it existed it Jewish religion, but it is not their native concept). Actual meaning(s) of *grěxъ are explained on its page. Sometimes you should stop yourself from commenting, idk what your problem is. Sławobóg (talk) 22:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg : Old Church Slavonic грѣховьнъ (grěxovĭnŭ) - like this will be good? ZomBear (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@ZomBear idk, are there any more sources on that word? I just checked, ESSJa and SP don't even mention *grěxovъ, nor Google. That makes this PS word even less probable (theres grzechowny but without citations or source). Maybe it is just OCS innovation from грѣхъ (grěxŭ) + -овьнъ (-ovĭnŭ)? Then borrowed into other languages. It is widely accepted that grěx as "sin" is post-Proto-Slavic innovation, that means it was coined somewhere and then semantics were borrowed into other languages. There was even bigger OCS influence on OES. This is I don't like when someone makes lemmas that are somehow related to christianity, we don't have any policy on that. I'm not mad at you, just saying. We can go for compromise and keep PS page but make it dialectal and add note that it might be OCS only. Sławobóg (talk) 18:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg here is another source of *grěxovьnъ -- ZomBear (talk) 19:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@ZomBear I think that list is not about PS but rather about OCS synchronic etymology, see page 218. I doubt these proper nouns existed in PS. See also Żyd, Rzym. Sławobóg (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg: Look, Mr. Know-it-all, you are too green to judge who doesn't "understand anything". I have caught you numerous times to spread controversial and sometimes straightforward wrong theories, due to misinterpretation of the available literature. Wiktionary is not a playground for pathological cases of Dunning–Kruger syndrome like you. In fact, if you are so convinced in your knowledge, I challenge you to show us some serious research which proves that there was "no such thing like "sin" in pre-Christian Slavs" and additionally that sin in general (not just in the hamartiological sense of the word) is unrelated to guilt, morale and ethics. PS Let me emphasize that in regard to the later you are going against nearly 3 millennia of philosophical discourse, so it will be amusing to see what you'll come up with. 109.148.76.39 16:25, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Concept of sin didn't exist in most of pagan cultures, including Slavic culture. This is what most scholars say. You still don't know the definition of sin. Bye. Sławobóg (talk) 19:00, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sławobóg Illuminate me then. What is the definition of sin? Who are these scholars (allegedly a majority) who claim pagans lacked notion of sin? Did they also lack moral compass and judgement? How did they distinguish good from bad, right from wrong if they didn't comprehend what a sin is? How did Slavs come with concepts such as *rota, *prisęga, *pravidlo without understanding the concept of their transgression? How did they develop the idea of *vina if they didn't have anything to feel guilty of? If you wish, dodge the answers, though, in that case you should stop acting like a smartass. 2A00:23C7:9C97:8201:B808:73C0:3BF1:405D 20:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)