Module talk:uk-pronunciation

Newer sources

Newer sources for standard Ukrainian orthoepy are:

• Орфоепічний словник української мови: В 2 т. / Уклад.: М. М. Пещак, В. М. Русанівський, Н. М. Сологуб, В. В. Чумак, Г. М. Ярун. — К.: Довіра, 2001.
• Орфоепічний словник: В 2-х томах. Т. 2 / Уклад. М.М. Пещак, В.М. Русанівський, Н.М. Сологуб.- Київ: Довіра, 2003.- 918 с
• Орфоепічний словник української мови. В.М. Русанівський, В.В. Чумак, Г.М. Ярун «Перун», 2006 — 208 с. →ISBN

None of these are available on the Internet, so it would be great if someone who has access to these books would check them. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 03:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "в"

Letter "в" is often just /v/, especially between or before vowels, e.g. ґава /ɡˈɑvɐ/, вухо /vˈuxɔ/ (IMHO). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I may be using pronunciation influenced by Russian, though. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

See here page 4. I was thinking of generating as a tooltip individual rules applied, especially when they are non-obvious. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

BTW, there is no problem in generating the Russian-influenced pronunciation as well. All we need is the list of rules for it. Preferably some publications and not "I heard it like that" type of rules. Other possibilities are generating the Ukrainian scholarly transcription in Cyrillic, or some form of English-friendly spelled pronunciation (with ch, zh, ts y for [j] and so on) . The template {{uk-pron}} is meant to only generate phonetic transcription, and when support for others is added another template will be needed which will output rows and qualifiers as well. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm okey to leave the main variant only (there are too many various levels of Russification and other foreign influences, incl. Polish and Belarusian) but I'd check if it's never /v/, e.g. when palatalised. To me (I may be wrong) "ві́сті" is not [ʋʲˈisʲtʲi] but [vʲˈisʲtʲi]. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:49, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Placement of the emphasis sign

Are /ɡˈɑvɐ/ and /vˈuxɔ/ correct notations? Shouldn't it be /ˈɡɑvɐ/ and /ˈvuxɔ/? --Vahag (talk) 09:42, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Both are OK I think. In strictly phonemic transcription (implied by your //) there shouldn't even be stress marked, or length for that matter, or even the very notion of syllable, because it's "supra-segmental". This notation I found in Press&Pugh's book, probably reflecting the tradition used in native Cyrillic transcription which marks stress above vowels with acute accent. I've also seen Russian and Belarusian phonetically transcribed with stress marks above vowels in "The Slavonic languages". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Vowels

Ukrainian vowels and their allophones. Larger dots and and font indicates main allophones of phonemes (when they are stressed and aren't preceded by palatalized consonants). Red lines connect main allophone to non-syllabic one, blue lines connect main allophone with unstressed allophones, and green lines connect allophones not preceded by palatalized consonants with allophones preceded by palatalized consonants.

Ukrainian unstressed vowels do not show that level of reduction. For example, the word «Україна» is phonetically [ukrɑ̽ˈjinɑ̽] (can be transcribed even [ukrɑˈjinɑ]) rhather than [ʊkrɐˈjinɐ]. Allophones [ɐ] and [ʊ] appear in unstressed syllables after palatalized consonants (and /j/): «п'яти» [pjɐˈtɪ] ('five', some inflected forms) «тюрма» [tʲʊrˈmɑ] ('jail'). This chart shows the Ukrainian vowel phonemes and their positional allophones quite correctly. It is based on the description of the Ukrainian phonology given in Pohribnyi's Pronunciation Dictionary (1984). The Ukrainian pronunciation standard has not changed since then (unlike spelling, which has been changed slightly twice). In terms of vowel phonology, Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Belarusian and Russian, both of which show great vowel allophony and many vowel mergers in unstressed syllables.

I am a native Ukrainian and Russian speaker and a linguist. — GPodkolzin ^Talk 13:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Update. For the word «мова, the template generates the pronunciation [ˈmɔu̯ɐ], which is not correct at all because it gives an incerrect allophone of /⁠w⁠/. This word should be trabscribed as [ˈmɔʋɑ], [ˈmɔwɑ] or [ˈmɔʋɑ̽], [ˈmɔwɑ̽]. — GPodkolzin ^Talk 10:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@GPodkolzin Are you still floating around? If so, I'd be interested in a list of all the things wrong with the current pronunciation as issued by the module, and I'll fix them. I recently implemented Module:uk-verb and {{uk-conj}}, which automatically generate Ukrainian verb conjugations, and I'm now working on noun declensions (which seem extremely complicated). Benwing2 (talk) 14:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@GPodkolzin BTW the current handling of unstressed vowels is based on Wikipedia, which quotes various sources, so perhaps there is some disagreement about standard pronunciation. I fixed the allophones of /w/. Benwing2 (talk) 05:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2 It is a bit strange because the phonological description of Polish is similar to that of Ukrainian and the description of Spanish is even more complex, but Spanish and Polish transcription is very light in handling positonal allophones. The only thing where Standard Ukrainian is more complex than these two languages is the neutralisation of the unstressed /ɛ/ and /ɪ/, which can be be compared to the neutralisation of unstressed /e/ – /ɛ/ on the one hand and /o/ – /ɔ/ on the other. I think some of the descriptions the Wikipedia article based upon describe the current Russified pronunciation rather than the standard. — GPodkolzin ^Talk 14:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@GPodkolzin, Benwing2: @GPodkolzin: It's not clear if you're requesting any change to the module. I am not sure that the original module was based on the Wikipedia article.

Polish mostly lacks vowel reductions but Ukrainian demonstrates at least some. Merging of unstressed /ɛ/ and /ɪ/ is no longer current, IMO.

Which parts of the Wikipedia article you find describing a Russified pronunciation? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I am not saying the template is based on the Wikipedia article. What I mean is that some modern descriptions may describe the modern Russified pronunciation.

Standard Ukrainian also lacks vowel reduction if we do not consider the aforementioned vowel neutralisation to be vowel reduction. The neutralisation of /ɛ/ and /ɪ/ in unstressed positions is part of standard Ukrainian pronunciation and is usually regarded as the only notable vowel change in unstressed position in Modern Standard Ukrainian.

This artcile is based on the descriptions of standard (or literary) pronunciation (Орфоепічний словник Погрібного, Основи і принципи української літературної вимови Жовтобрюха) and the only sound change in unstressed position mentioned there is this very /ɛ/–/ɪ/ neutralisation. — GPodkolzin ^Talk 14:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, everyone. Can someone explain to me why the unstressed "и" in брильянт (brylʹjant) is transcribed as "e"? I know the word is colloquial, but still. GareginRA (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I see many wrong templates in the Ukrainian IPA. It's full of mistakes. и is never transcribed as e in real IPA. I have the feeling, based on this discussion, that @Atitarev made all the templates, which is bad, since he is not a native speaker, but instead a native russian speaker. Therefore, there is a lot of wrong influence by russian phonemes and allophones. The Ukrainian IPA module needs a complete overhaul my a Ukrainian linguist, who knows the correct Ukrainian transcription and pronunciation. Pettylein (talk) 23:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Pettylein: Your very first and only contribution on this site is an accusation. You must be a very valuable and productive future contributor! Surely, if you worked on the module, you would make it much better. My Ukrainian was acquired, since I lived in eastern Ukraine and Russia before coming to Australia and even my father, native Ukrainian was influenced by Russian. I am not trying to influence my Ukrainian contributions by Russian, that's a false accusation.

1. The module wasn't developed by me, I contributed to its development but mostly by @Benwing2 and he can easily change that. But as you see @GareginRA's comment above, this variation is considered a standard reduction in Ukrainian by some.
2. The decision to transcribe the unstressed "и" as /e/ wasn't mine. The method followed was from one consistent source and we alredy have a basic agreement to change that.

--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:07, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Pettylein I agree with @Atitarev largely. I have worked a lot with him and from what I can tell he is very careful and is unlikely to be making sloppy mistakes influenced by his native language. Keep in mind I did some work on this module but the merger of unstressed е and и predates the work I did. From what @GareginRA says, there's a difference between "literary" and "Russified" pronunciation (although I don't know the exact details), and that may be where your complaint is coming from. Benwing2 (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Україна

Moved from Talk:Україна#Transcription

I believe the stressed vowel should be /i/ and not /ɪ/: in the recording it's heard quite distinctively. --TheStrayCat (talk) 12:10, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. That must have been an error. --WikiTiki89 15:17, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

@TheStrayCat You are wrong.--UeArtemis (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Правописне і та ї вимовляються близько до и (йи) в таких випадках, коли вони в певних закінченнях, аналогічних до закінчень із и:

а) у всіх м’яких прикметниках відповідно до твердих закінчень: синій, безкраїми... (вимовляються "синьий", "безкрайими" – див § 52)

б) у наростках -їна, -їха, -їще, -їсько, -їк, -їн, -їкий, їнський, -їстий: Україна (вимовл. "Украйина"), Солов’їха, гноїще, боїсько, покоїк, Маріїн, солов’їний, український, троїстий... (порівн. долина, багнище, столик, Ганнин, качиний, танцюристий...)

в) у дієслівних закінченнях без наголосу: стоїмо (вимовл. "стойимо"), го́їти, озбро́ївся... (але під наголосом стоїть, напоїти... з йі).

— Олекса Синявський, "Норми української літературної мови" (Харків, 1931) --UeArtemis (talk) 10:52, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89 прошу вернуть /ɪ/--UeArtemis (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@UeArtemis: Hi. User:Wikitiki89 has been inactive for a while and nobody is currently looking after this module. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Ukrainian "и" vs Russian "ы"

@Benwing2 Hi. How does the unstressed "и" in the Ukrainian word му́зика (múzyka) sound to your ear? I personally hear no difference from the Russian му́зыка (múzyka), although it may be the same woman who recorded the Ukrainian ри́ба (rýba) (stressed) where there is a slight difference from the Russian ры́ба (rýba). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Yes, the и in Ukrainian му́зика (múzyka) and the ы in Russian му́зыка (múzyka) sound very similar to me. Both sound similar to English [ɪ]. The Russian version is shorter but that may be just a function of how carefully the speaker is enunciating. In both, I hear a bit of velarization in the vowel. In Ukrainian ри́ба (rýba), the stressed и́ sounds to my ear like English [i] not [ɪ]. Possibly the normal English [i] is a bit lowered from canonical IPA [i]; I'm not sure. In the recording of Russian ры́ба (rýba), the stressed ы́ sounds like [ɨ], like you'd expect, but on the whole it sounds almost as if the speaker is accenting the second syllable, not the first one; perhaps this is due to exaggerating the pronunciation. Note that there is a big difference between Ukrainian и and Russian ы after a labial; in Russian быть (bytʹ) and мыть (mytʹ), for example, there is a very noticeable velar offglide after the labial, which is absent in Ukrainian би́ти (býty) and ми́ти (mýty). Benwing2 (talk) 01:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

all test cases pass now

@Atitarev Things are in much better shape now. I fixed various bugs and also changed the handling of /ʋ/ before a vowel (now [ʋ] not [u̯]) and the algorithm for placing stress in consonant clusters (which previously put far too many clusters after the stress mark; now it works more like Module:ru-pron). Next I'll port this stress-placing algorithm to Module:be-pronunciation. Benwing2 (talk) 05:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Great job, thank you! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Ukrainian l vs Russian ɫ

Recently, I've noticed that the module changes l into ɫ if it's not palatized. However, both "Ukrainian phonology" and "Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar lateral approximants" pages on Wikipedia never mention that l can be velarized in Ukrainian, and only characterize it as a voiced alveolar lateral approximant. --Underfell Flowey (talk) 10:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@Underfell Flowey: Are you able to provide any better sources other than Wikipedia? I'm personally not convinced and I am not aware of any difference between the Ukrainian unpalatalised l and its counterparts in Russian, Belarusian, Bulgarian or Macedonian. @Benwing2: FYI. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:55, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Most of the sources (e.g. Pompino-Marschall, Steriopolo & Żygis) suggest that "hard" l in Ukrainian is velarized. However, Ukrainian Wikipedia states on multiple articles that it is only velarized before the vowels а, о, у and е, though without any sources. I can't seem to find any reliable source stating that l isn't velarized, so I reverted my changes to the module. --Underfell Flowey (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@Underfell Flowey: Thank you, If I find confirmations that it's not velarised, it can be revisited. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

[ɣ] vs [ɦ]

@Benwing2, Voltaigne: Please see Talk:Григорій. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Voltaigne I'm not a native speaker of Ukrainian so I can't necessarily comment. The link to the Journal of the IPA does say that the г is /ɦ/ but also says it's quite variable. Benwing2 (talk) 04:39, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Voltaigne: Thanks, I linked quickly because that discussion may be lost. I don't have a strong opinion but I know we are basing the module on a sort of classical pronunciation. There are too many variations, we should keep, at least, to one standard.

What I noticed is, the Russian dialectal pronunciation of "г" is often described with /ɣ/ but Ukrainian standard with [ɦ] but there is no real difference to my ear in the way how "г" is pronounced in e.g. Kiev or Krasnodar, Russia. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Here are loads of examples of people saying "Григорій" (via Filmot). To my ear there is plenty of support for [ɦreˈɦɔrʲii̯]. I'm not a phonetician but the perception (or occasional actual production) of /ɣ/ may be influenced by the following /r/ (maybe this is an instance of the variability alluded to in the IPA journal article). I reckon we can accommodate this with manual additions to entries on a case-by-case basis without necessarily changing or omitting Template:uk-IPA. Voltaigne (talk) 12:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

semi-softened consonants

Consonants б, п, в, ф, г, х, ґ, к, ж, ш and м is semi-softened. But, for example, in the articles більшість, після etc, it is written that this is a completely softened letter, — GagogaSus (talk) 21:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@GagogaSus: Does it mean you want something changed? We mark the palatalisation (this is the right term) of consonants in certain positions, e.g. [ˈbʲilʲʃʲisʲtʲ] for бі́льшість (bílʹšistʹ). Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)