Module talk:uk-noun

Live now

@Atitarev This is live now and replaces the previous definitions of Template:uk-decl-noun, Template:uk-decl-noun-unc and Template:uk-decl-noun-pl. Accelerators should work and you can include footnotes, including using |footnote=/|footnote2=/etc. Benwing2 (talk) 02:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Gosh, you're quick. Thank you! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Multistressed and unstressed words disallowed

@Atitarev I went through and added stresses to all forms missing stresses in {{uk-decl-noun}} and variants, and split all multi-stressed forms into two comma-separated single-stressed forms. After that I changed the module to throw an error if it encounters either case. Single-syllable unstressed forms are allowed, as are multi-syllable unstressed suffix forms (i.e. forms beginning with a hyphen). You can prevent the error for missing stresses by adding |unknown_stress=1, which I've done on пазл (pazl) since I can't find the stresses documented anywhere (although I'm 99% sure it's stem-stressed). Currently there's no way of preventing the multi-stress error other than not using multi-stressed forms. Benwing2 (talk) 03:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This is a good enhancement, thank you. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Маврикій

@Atitarev For consistency with other nouns, -єві should presumably be animate-only. Benwing2 (talk) 02:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: OK, I have removed Маври́кію from loc. sg. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:38, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Automatic is live

@Atitarev I pushed my automatic module to production. It supports everything except for adjectival and plural-only nouns; those will come shortly. The documentation is partial at this point; you can see examples in User:Benwing2/uk-nouns, User:Benwing2/uk-nouns-f and User:Benwing2/uk-nouns-n. Benwing2 (talk) 02:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Great job! Thank you very much. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

jije alteration - ї/є

@Benwing2: Hi. Could you please add a new alteration for ї/є, similar to і/о and і/е? Examples are Ки́їв (Kýjiv), Микола́їв (Mykolájiv). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Noun headword main stress

@Benwing2: Hi. Something happened to the headword stress on nouns. Pls take a look at вага́ (vahá), ва́ги (váhy). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Oops. I just pushed code to enable multiword lemmas and it seems to have messed this up. Thanks for noticing so quickly, I'll see if I can debug it. Benwing2 (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Should be fixed. Benwing2 (talk) 01:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you and for implementing the multiword nouns. Can I please request these to be added to Category:Ukrainian multiword terms (I think many languages would benefit from it, Bulgarian, Arabic)? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

io vs. ijo

@Atitarev I changed the io code so it always just changes і to о, even after л. To get the change from і to ьо after л, I introduced the new code ijo. The change from лі to льо seems more regular (лід, колір, вертоліт and related words in -літ such as авіапереліт, авіаполіт) but there are several words that change лі to ло, e.g. плід, глід, пліт, барліг. Benwing2 (talk) 12:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Fixed issue with дані

@Atitarev This is fixed now. Benwing2 (talk) 12:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

categories

@Atitarev I added categories similar to Russian nouns. Benwing2 (talk) 03:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

BTW, currently working on creating all the category pages. Benwing2 (talk) 03:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Russianized Ukrainian?

@Atitarev, Fay Freak It occurred to me that some of the differences between dictionaries might reflect more or less Russianized varieties of Ukrainian. I heard once that during Soviet times, the Ukrainian language was heavily Russianized, and there was then a backlash in the early 1990's to remove these Russian influences. What made me think of this was the word зуб, which is listed in sum.in.ua (1972) as having pl зу́би in the normal meaning "tooth", but pl either зу́би or зу́б'я in the technical meaning "tooth (on a rake, comb, gear, etc.)". The latter plural echoes the Russian plural зу́бья and is nowhere to be found in Horokh or mova.info, which are more recent. Slovnyk has зу́б'я listed as an alternative plural in the definition section (which appears to be a copy of sum.in.ua), but not in the declension section, which seems to come from a different source. I wonder if the same thing is going on with зубо́к, where Horokh says it only has plural зубки́/зубкі́в, mova.info says it has two plurals, a technical sense with plural зубки́/зубкі́в and a diminutive sense with plural зу́бки/зу́бків (more like Russian), and sum.in.ua says it has two plurals, where the diminutive sense has plural зу́бки/зу́бок (even more like Russian). Similar things seem to be happening with пере́д/пе́ред "front part" and верх "top", where the three sources (Horokh, mova.info and sum.in.ua) differ dramatically in the declensions, with Horokh the least Russian-like and sum.in.ua the most Russian-like. Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This is difficult to determine, even if you try using Google books. To stay neutral and not to copy even more Russified Ukrainian, you can use just what dictionaries say, combine inflections from both sources. Google books is not always your friend because it will confirm there are many Russifications in real life used in Ukrainian. It makes sense to add ALL dictionary references like I usually do. For example, only Slovnyk.ua adds participles in the conjugation table, which are searchable in Horokh in most cases and with stress marks. So in case of a conflict add mova.info (we need a new reference template for it), even if their inflection tables are not user-friendly. In any case, Ukraine was part of Russia and USSR for centuries, so it's not surprising that technical and formal use may coincide. Even inflections may be partially borrowed. You have a proof at hand. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I created a template for Mova: {{R:uk:GramDict:2011}}. My general tendency is to use Horokh's inflections unless something tells me they're not right. For example, Horokh lists пе́ре́д in all cases (gen пе́ре́ду, nom pl пе́ре́ди), whereas mova.info, sum.in.ua and various other sources agree on the plural being переди́; in this case I trust the other sources over Horokh. Conversely, sometimes I have seen things that seem weird in mova.info. I'm not sure about just combining all the stresses; this seems like it might produce a mess in some cases, and lose some of the complexities. Benwing2 (talk) 06:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: зу́б'я (zúbʺja) can be confirmed in multiple sources, it's a pity, they don't always include the full paradigm. Bilodid is useless in this respect. The declension for that sense is зу́б'я, зу́б'їв, зу́б'ям, зу́б'я, зу́б'ями, зу́б'ях. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Don't combine multiple sources if it feels wrong. I searched for examples of зуб'я and I was satisfied with my findings. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

declension of countries and cities

@Atitarev Careful with countries like Туніс and Мозамбік in Ukrainian. The rule appears to be that countries need genu but cities don't, hence we need to split Туніс. I checked the Belarusian Wikipedia and this rule does *NOT* apply in Belarusian, which has genitive -а for both countries and cities. Benwing2 (talk) 00:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: OK, thanks. I saw gen. sg. -а for countries (Українці Мозамбіка) used in Ukrainian but that may not be standard. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

плем'я

@Benwing2 Hi. I don't know if the type of declension (pls see https://goroh.pp.ua/Словозміна/плем'я) is defined. Does it require some manual overrides? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev There's the 'en' indicator, which gets the singular almost right but not the plural. Let me look into this a bit more. Benwing2 (talk) 15:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks, it's the plural forms that didn't work. If this declension is unique, a manual has been provided. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:03, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Adjectival nouns

For some reason all adjectival nouns are marked as "pl-only" (see, for example, золотий#Noun). --Underfell Flowey (talk) 09:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Count forms

Despite Ukrainian having count forms similar to Belarusian, they are not represented in its modules and templates. --Underfell Flowey (talk) 10:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Underfell Flowey (talk) 09:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Missing declension type?

@Benwing2, Voltaigne, Underfell Flowey: Hi. I'd like to add adjectival proper nouns like Деба́льцеве (Debálʹceve) or Єна́кієве (Jenákijeve). Apparently they don't behave like corresponding Russian -во proper nouns. I don't know if there is a matching pattern in nouns or adjectives at Wiktionary, I couldn't find any. Pls see e.g. https://goroh.pp.ua/Словозміна/Дебальцеве for a declension paradigm. @Benwing2, I would appreciate your help on this! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:43, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Benwig2: Never mind, I found it! Pls address @Underfell Flowey's requests above, if it's OK with you. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

життя declension wrong

The title of the declension table of життя says it is 4th declension, but this is actually 2nd declension. See, for instance, here: https://www.lingq.com/en/grammar-resource/ukrainian/noun/ --2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2 08:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Likewise взуття, see https://goroh.pp.ua/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BC%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%82%D1%82%D1%8F ("2 відміна") --2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2 08:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2, 2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2: All declensions forms on both terms are totally correct, so your saying "declension wrong" is wrong!

@Benwing2 might be able to explain the numbering used at Wiktionary (declension classification), they may not be the same as used on goroh.pp.ua. @Voltaigne: FYI. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:41, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, @Benwing2 See also Ukrainian grammar on Wikipedia. This agrees with the OP, LingQ, goroh.pp.ua and also:

• § 66 of
• Praktische Kurzgrammatik der ukrainischen Sprache By Svetlana Amir-Babenko, Franz Pfliegl, page 26

Voltaigne (talk) 11:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne: Thanks. Please confirm it's the numbering that needs to be addressed, not the declensions themselves. Not sure what "this" means in your post (2nd sentence). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev @Benwing2 I am happy to confirm that it is only the arbitrary/conventional numbering of the declension class that needs changing here. There's nothing wrong with the forms displayed in the tables. Voltaigne (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Benwing2: Thanks. I wonder if it needs to be fixed or explained (and documented). BTW, we don't have noun by declension type categories. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:59, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev @Benwing2 We do have Category:Ukrainian fourth-declension neuter-form nouns‎. If we decide to "fix" the declension numbering in accordance with the above sources, then this category would need to be renamed or removed. Also, in both Category:Ukrainian t-stem neuter-form nouns and Category:Ukrainian n-stem neuter-form nouns it is noted that "This is traditionally considered to belong to the fourth declension", but nouns in those categories are not also found in Category:Ukrainian fourth-declension neuter-form nouns‎. Voltaigne (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, as Voltaigne has helpfully sorted out for me, the title of this section is shorthand for what I explained in the initial sentence ("the title of" etc.). I also agree with Voltaigne that it would be helpful to fix the current table titleing (as it stands it is plain wrong) as well as reform the categorization scheme to better reflect the traditional approach of Ukrainian grammar. Thanks! --2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2 13:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Atitarev This shouldn't be too hard to fix. Benwing2 (talk) 04:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, 2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2, 2001:9E8:6FE4:A500:E85F:3FF6:21CE:10B2: User:Benwing2 has kindly made the change and created matching category. @User:Benwing2, is it final? Please check if it's satisfactory. Pls note that our conventions (classifications and numbering) don't need to match other dictionaries. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Voltaigne Should be done. Benwing2 (talk) 06:40, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Many thanks for making the change - it looks good to me. FAO @Atitarev: Voltaigne (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Locative -і

Came to my mind after a discussion on Module talk:uk-verb about the short infinitive ending -ть.

Normally, and as reflected in the module, most words ending in a velar consonant take -у in the locative, while others take -і. Some of the former may also take -і (дух - дусі, поверх - поверсі). But here's a thing... while -у is standard for most velar-forms, the earlier ending -і is also used with the preposition в/у (with the meaning in, inside).

The official orthography (2019) only mentions it in a footnote on page 95: "Примітка 2. Із прийменниками в (у) деякі іменники також набувають варіантних закінчень -у (-ю) та -і (-ї): у по́тягу — у по́тязі." - "some" nouns may have both -у and -і with these prepositions.

You won't see потязі in a dictionary like Kyiv dictionary, yet you will often hear and see forms like these being used (for "some" words - which words?). Using this one widespread form as an extreme example, Twitter seems to have as much usages of "потязі" as "потягу", if not more, and that's while also counting genitive and dative usages of the latter form.

A few other forms I can think of (off the top of my head) that I've heard/used myself: "шоці" (somewhat influenced by Russian "в шоке"?), буряці.

What do others think? (Notifying Atitarev, Benwing2, Voltaigne, Zombear): Underfell Flowey (talk) 08:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Given that the official orthography doesn't provide a systematic way of identifying such instances, I suggest that we footnote them in the declension table on an ad-hoc basis whenever they can be attested. Here's an example for по́тяг:

Declension of по́тяг (inan velar masc-form accent-a)

	singular	plural
nominative	по́тяг pótjah	по́тяги pótjahy
genitive	по́тяга pótjaha	по́тягів pótjahiv
dative	по́тягові, по́тягу pótjahovi, pótjahu	по́тягам pótjaham
accusative	по́тяг pótjah	по́тяги pótjahy
instrumental	по́тягом pótjahom	по́тягами pótjahamy
locative	по́тягу, по́тязі1 pótjahu, pótjazi1	по́тягах pótjahax
vocative	по́тягу pótjahu	по́тяги pótjahy

¹Variant form which can occur after the preposition в/у.

Voltaigne (talk) 14:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Underfell Flowey Sounds good to me. If there are a lot of such cases, I can make some special syntax to avoid having to type the whole footnote. Benwing2 (talk) 18:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, @Underfell Flowey, @Benwing2: looks good to me. Ukrainian doesn't always come natural to me, so I had to check some resources on "по́тязі" to confirm. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

For info, I've also applied this to шок, as per Underfell Flowey's original post. "шо́ці" doesn't feature in Horokh or Kyiv Dictionary but is well attested in phrases such as "Я просто в шоці". Voltaigne (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2023 (UTC)