Wiktionary talk:Russian templates

Adjective inflection

Why on Earth do we need two sets of identical templates? But that's not the problem. First, there's no declension template for ...цый adjectives, I would add it but I want it to be ru-adjective7 and I want current ru-adjective7 and ru-adjective8 renamed to ru-adj-possessive1 etc. This is important distinction, possessive adjectives have different declension patterns from regular even when their lemmas have the same ending (собачий - кусачий, but собачьего - кусачего). And ru-adjective7 using третий as an example... Since when it's an adjective? And now, третий is listed as 'ordinal number' but it's in Russian adjectives category. And there's also third form for possessives - мамин/маминого etc. which also needs a template. Сукин (which should fall there but doesn't) is actually an exception, using outdated declension, it shouldn't be an example. So I'm thinking of renaming two possessive adjective templates, there's only a dozen entries linked. What d'ya say? --Panda34 14:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Originally we had only one set, which was ru-adj1. At some point we made some fundamental changes that required opening each existing page and changing the information. Since there were quite a few already, we made a separate set, ru-adjective1. Later when I had more time, I opened each of the older pages and made the required changes, and then I copied the formating from ru-adjective1 over to ru-adj1. That’s why there are now two identical templates. It would be better to delete ru-adjective1 and have only ru-adj1, which is easier to remember and easier to type, but that means changing a lot of pages to the shorter name.

I would not mind if ru-adjective7 and ru-adjective8 were renumbered to a higher number, but the name ru-adj-possessive1 is simply too difficult. I would have to search for the name every time I wanted to apply it. And just because the template name does not say "possessive" does not imply that the words to which it applies are not possessives.

Ordinal numbers (such as third and третий) are considered adjectives, at least in the English sense of the word adjective. In most cases, even the cardinal numbers are technically adjectives, but Russian does not treat them as such. Since сукин is an exception, I think we could just put a declension table on that page instead of the template, and then change the template so that it works for мамин. Besides the -ий and -ин possessives, don’t forget the -ов kind (Петров). —Stephen 19:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

How do we make several short forms for an adjective? шустрый should also have шустр and шустёр for short masculine, do you have to copy the whole expanded template or can it be tricked somehow? The same is for comp/superl forms in ru-adj. стрёмный needs стрёмнее/стрёмней/стремнее/стремней = 4 comp. forms (and also a duplicate set of short forms, at least fem and pl)--Panda34 10:59, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Like this and this. Is стремнее a typographical variant of стрёмнее or is it pronounced стремне́е? If it's a mere typographical variant, we don't want it in the inflection line. --Vahagn Petrosyan 11:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a different word, not an umlaut issue. Superlative also (I've added it).--Panda34 12:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Multiple short forms can be added just by using a comma, as in ...|шустр, шустёр|..., or, if you want them to link, ...|шустр, шустёр|.... —Stephen 19:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone get rid of superlative there: студёный? --Panda34 11:58, 16 September 2010 (UTC) The template is all wrong anyway ru-adj|- usage is wrong.--Panda34 13:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Do it like this. Use {{ru-adj|-||-|}} for that other thing. The template isn't very intuitive and polished, I admit. I lost my interest in Russian templates half-way making it. --Vahag 13:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I read docs too, you know ;) I told you "minus" usage is all wrong - just look what you've done to comparative! And by getting rid I mean get rid, expunge, obliterate, not substitute some excuse for superlative which this template cannot do, it being sure that anything having a comparative must have a superlative (which is not without logic, I admit).--Panda34 20:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, I now see it's broken. I'll rewrite and simplify it in few days. --Vahag 14:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Automated declension templates

If I understand the naming convention correctly, we need {{ru-noun-anim-ь-3-m}} for князь. —Stephen 13:19, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Now created. I omitted few templates covering rarer paradigms. --Vahagn Petrosyan 14:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Need {{ru-noun-anim-ь-2-f}} for вошь. I’m having trouble with заяц/{{ru-noun-anim-ц-1‎}}, заём/{{ru-noun-inan-1‎}}, and дятел/{{ru-noun-anim-1}}‎...the links have stress marks. —Stephen 06:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I can’t believe I hadn’t noticed the stress problem, especially when it had metastasized to so many templates. I think now I fixed everything, but let me know if you notice more of this shit. By the way, you don’t have to go back and fix these. Now the templates will work with correct stress even if the there is a first variable (which, of course, in case of азер or завод is not required, but I sometimes add one as a mnemonic device, given that most of other templates require the unstressed word as a first variable). As for вошь, it’s irregular. It's reduced to вш-, except for instrumental singular: вошью. I don’t want to make ad-hoc templates for such cases. It’s better to decline these manually. --Vahagn Petrosyan 10:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to have {{ru-noun-inan-sib-а-6}} for вожжа, unless the genitive plural is irregular. I think вожжей is regular for this pattern, isn’t it? —Stephen 10:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure. It's regular. --Vahagn Petrosyan 12:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Examples, please!

It's the first time I see this page. Great job! Unfortunately, I have trouble figuring the usage of many templates. Stephen, Vahagn, or anybody who understands this, are you able to gradually add an example next to each template, please? At the moment, when deciding on a template, I look for a similar word existing word in the Wiktionary, hoping that it has the right template, like I did for светофор. At first, I tried семафор but the declension was manual, then I chose мотор and fixed семафор. If there were examples, it would be much easier for me and I think for some others to choose the right template. --Anatoli 05:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't plan adding examples in the near future, because I'm busy these days. But if you want to do it, there are examples on every individual template's page, e.g. Template:ru-noun-inan-й-1 or Template:ru-noun-inan-sib-е-1. Even better rule of picking the right template is:

• determining whether the word is animate or inanimate
• determining its ending
• determining the stress pattern number from Appendix:Russian stress patterns (usually it's 1)
• guessing the template name by this formula: {{ru-noun-anim/inan-ending-stress.pattern.number}}

--Vahagn Petrosyan 08:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if you find a word that you want to give the declension for, let me know and I can walk you through the steps that I use to select the right template. The first and most difficult step is deciding the stress pattern. You can use Appendix:Russian stress patterns to determine which of the six possibilities is the correct one. After a few times, it becomes very easy to know the stress pattern for most nouns. The rest of the process for choosing the template is very simple. —Stephen 13:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, it may not be as difficult as I think. I can figure our out some conventions used but not all, e.g. -unc- and not sure I understand the numbering or the difference between similar patterns with different numbers. I will try to search, which nouns use which patterns or just experiment and see results (have no problem with the actual declension of nouns :) ). Are stress patterns and declension patterns linked? --Anatoli 20:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

-unc (unchanged) means no plural, singular only. You might use the following as a starter pattern: {{ru-noun-inan-vel-1||о́}}. Then change inan (inanimate) to anim (animate) for nouns that refer to people or animals; vel means velar, a stem that ends in г, к, х, and delete it if it’s not a velar; change vel to sib if the stem ends in a sibillant ж, ч, ш, щ. If it ends in a, o, or one of the other endings mentioned, then change vel to that ending (or add the ending after vel/sib if that is what it is). If it ends in ь, then you have to indicate m or f (after the number: -ь-1-f). Then put the correct number according to the stress pattern...usually it is 1. Finally you can add -unc if it is singular only. Also, for masculine nouns that have the nominative plural in а, add а after the number.

For the common masculine nouns, you only need to put the accented form, leaving the unaccented form blank: {{ru-noun-inan-1||компью́тер}}. For feminine, neuter, and other nouns, you usually need the unaccented, then the accented form: {{ru-noun-inan-vel-а-1|бумаг|бума́г}}. Some nouns that have an irregular plural stem or irregular genitive plural are more complex, and you need to look at the template to see the proper usage.

Usually the stress pattern only affects which syllable gets the accent, but there are some cases where the stress dictates whether, for example, the plural genitive ends in -ев or -ей.

I hope I have not made it too confusing. It really is very intuitive. —Stephen 20:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, it's getting better and it will get even better with practice. I will add some examples gradually, I think they will be beneficial for native speakers (including myself), as they could determine the template from examples. --Anatoli 09:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You know, of course, that you can go to any template and click on "What links here" to see every page where that template was applied. For example, Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:ru-noun-inan-2. —Stephen 18:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

A great hint, thanks! --Anatoli 23:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Doing it better with scripts

That heavy stuff here should be now rewritten in simpler Lua scripts. Additionally, there is parser function {{grammar:case|noun}} (can be accessed from Lua as mw.language.new("ru"):grammar(case,noun)) which is now mostly consists of stubs; it would be good if it were rewritten by somebody on more consistent declesion algoritm. I've written in English Wikipedia a script w:en:Module:RuGrammar, don't bite me, it's my first Lua one and is intended for mostly substituting heaviest templates of Russian Wkipedia, here referred for just being an example. I'm not familiar with task force organization in this project so writing it here. Ignatus (talk) 18:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• I've started doing it with Module:ru-translit, please test and use it, gentle people! Ignatus (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)