User talk:Science boy 30

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Rodrigo5260 (talk) 02:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Narrow transcriptions of Turkish terms

Hi - please don't make changes like this. They just make it harder to read IPA for Turkish, and make it really hard to determine any kind of phonemic understanding of the pronunciation. Theknightwho (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Unlike English and French, Turkish is almost always phonemic.So, using a phonemic transcription for Turkish is useless.That is why I always use phonetic transcriptions. Science boy 30 (talk) 16:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Science boy 30 That isn't really true - it's helpful for learners, and it also covers the situations when Turkish spelling isn't phonemic. The major problem with using really narrow transcriptions, as you're doing, is that it implies a uniformity between speakers that doesn't really exist; even if you only count speakers of the standard language. Theknightwho (talk) 16:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Most Turkish learners do not learn from IPA.Asking native speakers how to pronunce sounds is way better than IPA.Anybody with common sense would not learn IPA just to learn proper pronunciation.Not all foreign language learners want to be a linguist, if they wanted simplicity they would not spend their time trying to learn a so-called 'International alphabet'.And I disagree that it causes uninformity between speakers.

Trying to standardize a language just kills diversity which we linguists oppose.

'When Turkish spelling isn't phonemic'

99% of words in Turkish are phonemic.

Using IPA is no use. Science boy 30 (talk) 16:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Science boy 30 That isn’t what I said. I said that it implies a uniformity which does not exist. Not that it causes it. Also, your argument implies that we should get rid of IPA altogether - not have these hopelessly narrow transcriptions. Theknightwho (talk) 15:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Please stop adding needlessly narrow transcriptions. That's not helpful. Vininn126 (talk) 11:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

False Transcriptions of Turkish terms

Hi, please visit the Wikipedia page titled "Turkish phonology" while transcribing Turkish terms. [ᵝ] and [ʷ] don't exist in the standardized dialect as well as the most other dialects, please stop needlessly using them and adding them. /t, d, s, z, n, ɫ/ are not [t̟, d̟, s̟, z̟, n̟, ɫ̟] but [t̪, d̪, s̪, z̪, n̪, ɫ̪] in the standardized Turkish. Please stop changing normal Turkish transcriptions to flawed ones. Kakaeater (talk) 23:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Please Stop Falsifying the Turkish IPA Transcriptions

@Science boy 30 Hi again. About two months ago, I talked to you about you stubbornly falsifying the Turkish IPA. This may come out as rude but please just stop. No matter how fancy it may look to you, half of the symbols you use don't even exist in Turkish IPA. Let's take the word kuir for example, [kʰuʷˈɪɾ̞̊] is not the standard pronunciation. You can't add a [ʷ] after a vowel since to my knowledge it is physically impossible. [ɪ] in Turkish only exist word finally as an allophone. Or let's take your edit in lezbiyen. [ʎ̟e̞z̟biˈjæn̟] is also a monstrosity. Firstly [ʎ̟] does not even exist in Turkish. [n̟] and [z̟] too are non-existent in Turkish. /n/ and /z/ are dental constonants not whatever [n̟] and [z̟] are supposed to mean. And I truly don't wanna come out rude but I'm actually tired of fixing your transcriptions. I told you two months ago to use Turkish Phonology while transcribing Turkish IPA. It's truly tiring seeing you falsify normal transcriptions one by one, and it seems you don't even care about other editors and their pleas for you to stop. And if I said something false feel free to correct me! Sincerely hoping this helps. Kakaeater (talk) 18:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Ünlülerden sonra [ʷ] veya [ᵝ] ekleyebiliriz çünkü yaygın iki farklı yuvarlama şekli var.Türkçe'de o ve u'nun yuvarlanışıyla ö ve ü'nün yuvarlanışı farklıdır.Dar gösterimde bunu göstermek için şunları kullanırız: [ʷ] [ᵝ]

[ʎ̟] Türkçe'deki ince l'nin okunuşudur.Genellikle iki şekilde gösterilir: [l̠ʲ] ya da [ʎ̟.Bunlar tamamen aynıdır.Türkçedeki /n/ ve /z/ dişten değil dişsel-dişyuvasıl olarak okunur.Dünyadaki hiç bir değil dişsel ve dişsel-dişyuvasıl sesleri ayırmaz.O yüzden daha kolay olduğu için böyle gösteririz: /n̪/ ve /z̪].Ama doğrusu bunlar: [n̟] ve [z̟].

Düzelmekten sıkılmışmış.Uzman benim bu arada eminim ki söylediklerimi bile anlamıyorsundur. Science boy 30 (talk) 19:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

İlk önce Türkçe cevap vermeyeceğim çünkü bazı kelimelerin tam olarak Türkçe'ye nasıl çevirilebileceğini bilmiyorum. That being said let's talk about everything wrong with your transcription. First of all fix your language, you being a linguistics student doesn't automatically make you invincible to mistakes nor the basic moral rules. Second of all, [ʷ] [ᵝ] still don't exist in Turkish vowels. I don't know about your dialect, I've never seen anyone round their vowels like that in my (standard) dialect. I did a quick google research and I saw absolutely zero sources claiming Turkish has compressed vowels. If you have any resources you can link, I'll gladly walk back on my claim. Moreover just watch interviews from Istanbul. Look at the people's lips while they are pronouncing the vowels you claim to be compressed. I'll guarantee you there is none. If there's any feel free to inform me. Also the IPA page in the Wikipedia suggests that the transcription you are using suggests a dipthong, which does not exist in turkish. There may be consecutive vowel like in ağa, but in the standard dialect no dipthongs are allowed. Again if you believe I'm wrong visit the Wikipedia page and either tell me I got it wrong or publish an academic critique of the sources sited. Third of all we don't show Turkish letters "n" and "z" as /n̪/ ve /z̪/ but as /n/ and /z/. But in square brackets they are [n̪] and [z̪]. Your any other ramblings about this is over me any you should publish an academic critique of the sources sited in the Turkish Phonology page since "you are the expert here". Lastly I will gladly take an L here because I didn't actually know that [l̠ʲ] and [ʎ̟] are equal, but I still advise you to use the former since it is the shown practice. Kakaeater (talk) 20:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Eğer kaynaklarımı görmek istiyorsanız Reddit'te Yazışalım.Orada çok rahat fotoğraf atabilirim. Science boy 30 (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Also I forgot to add your [ɪ] in kuir [ɪ] only exists word finally and if you pronounce it that way in the streets of Istanbul people would just assume you are an English tourist. Kakaeater (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness

(Bu arada ilk yerde iki farklı yuvarlama olduğu yazıyor. (Compressed and protruded)

Çoğu dilin ön ünlülerinin compressed.Art ünlülerinin protruded olduğu yazıyor.Dar gösterimde compressed yuvarlanmanın [ᵝ] protruded yuvarlanmanın ise [ʷ] olarak gösteribileceği yazıyor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denti-alveolar_consonant

Bu sayfada çoğu dişsel olarak adlandırılan sesin aslında dişsel-dişyuvasıl olduğu yazıyor.Dişsel-dişyuvasıl sesler, dişler seslerle dişyuvasıl sesler arasındadır.Biz iki sesin arasına göstermek için şunları kullanırız: [t̟] [s̠].Ben sana bu mesajdan sonra bir daha link göstericeğim ona bak.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_front_rounded_vowel

Sayfanın aşağısında iki farklı seçenek göreceksin:Compressed ve Protruded.Tüçeye Compressed'te yani [ø̞ᵝ] ama mesela protruded'a tıkla Norveççe'de ve İsveççe'de yanlış hatırlamıyorsam bu dillerde protruded yani [ø̞ʷ]. Science boy 30 (talk) 20:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Voiceless_dental_and_alveolar_plosives&diffonly=true

bu sayfada aşağıya gir orada Türkçe'nin açıklamasında ne yazıyor? 'Laminal denti-alveolar'.Yani onu şöyle gösteremem [t̪] Bu dişsel bana dişyuvasılla dişselin arası lâzım yani [t̟]. Science boy 30 (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

İngilizce'deki /ɪ/ bu arada [ɪ̞]'dir.Yani Türkçe'dekiyle aynı değildir.Ben sesimi kaydettim ve kesinlikle [ɪ]'yi kullanıyorum. Science boy 30 (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

For clarification, we are not discussing the existence of the said sounds. I also went through all of the pages you just linked to me while writing the first paragraph, witch took a while as you condescendingly pointed out.

• Firstly, I'll admit a half-blunder as promised. I confused your double marking of the roundedness with you trying to say that they are somehow double or extremely rounded in a way. But I believe there's still a mistake on your side as well. "Çoğu dilin ön ünlülerinin compressed. Art ünlülerinin protruded olduğu yazıyor" You got your answer right here. It's that we don't mark protrusion in back vowels and compression in front vowels. Visit the roundedness page once more. See how no front vowel is marked as compressed and how no back vowel is marked as protruted? It's because we assume that [o̞] is already protruted and [ø̞] is already compressed. So your marking of doubling this roundedness by saying [ø̞ᵝ] confuses people like it confused me that it's somehow double compressed, since it's already assumed to be compressed. So I think we can agree on just saying [ø̞] and [o̞], since it's the commonplace usage of the roundedness markers.
• Second of all, on [t̪]. It's because we can't catch all the smallest details of the pronunciation of a word. You may choose to be extra correct and mark it that way, good for you. But the very same page you site as well as the overwhelming majority of the Turkish IPA transcriptions just use [t̪] because we are simply not able to catch the smallest details of a word even with the dozens of diacritics and marks IPA uses. So instead of trying to swim against the tide, you should just accept the mainstream, %99 accurate transcription. And if you don't, people will just change it to [t̪].
• Lastly take a look at kuir. You personally may pronounce it with an [ɪ], but I personally pronounce it with [i]. Now what happens? It's your word against my word. That's why anecdotal evidence is not enough. In occasions like this, the standardized language comes in. Standardized language does not allow [ɪ] if not word-finally. So that's it. It's not your own pronunciation we are transcribing, it's the standardized Turkish pronunciation. Hope this helps.

Kakaeater (talk) 21:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Hâlâ yanıt gelmedi bakıyorum? :D Science boy 30 (talk) 20:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@Science boy 30 Just link them here I don't have a reddit account. Kakaeater (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2024 (UTC)