Template talk:el-see

Necessity?

Again, not sure this template is necessary. --Fsojic (talk) 09:41, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. At least it should say "see at: blabla". I got confused at first. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

(1) Where we have a lot of inter-related terms (see αδέλφια (adélfia)) this is the easiest way to do it, would you prefer numerous links on each related page - each to be updated when necessary?

(2) Seems pretty obvious to me, surely a standard dictionary abbreviation (Greek use: βλ. (vl., “See!"”)) - but to make it clearer I've added it. — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 19:54, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

But why a Greek-specific template? Seems strange to have a lang-specific template for this — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

To Template:see

Moving to Template:see < Module:see by Benwing2, as in Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others#November_2021. Thank you Benwing! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

RFD discussion: November 2021–July 2022

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Template:el-see

Useless templet. Just list terms under ====Related terms==== or ===See also===. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 16:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Delete as pointless. Theknightwho (talk) 11:15, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Delete, completely redundant to {{l}} aside from the text before the link, which all the other languages manage to do without. This, that and the other (talk) 03:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Keep, @Inqilābī, Theknightwho, This, that and the other: (and @Sarri.greek for information)

• I have used this template over 5,000 times, it saves 9 keystrokes each time. That's why I use it.
• Looking at περπατάω I see 11 terms listed under "Related…". Using {{el-see}} saves having to repeat the list under each of the related terms as well as multiple edits if additions are made. That's why I created it.

If you don't like it I'm sorry, but I don't see that any of the points you make would justify deletion. — Saltmarsh^🢃 12:00, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Keep, please, as my good admin @Saltmarsh has created it. @Inqilābī: and notifying @Benwing2. The reason, is the lack of an inline Template:see (with parameters e.g. {see|el|xxx}}) which at the moment redirects to Template:also. Which is meant for a different job: to place at top-of-page of similar spellings with different diacritics.

There are lemmata which are central: etymologically they are the source for a huge number of related and derived words. E.g. ψυχή (psychí). At the entry αναψύχωση (anapsýchosi) or ψύχωση (psýchosi), we mention some closely related terms, andddd... last but not least, we need to let the reader know, that the full index of related is placed at ψυχή. Like ψήφος f (psífos, “vote”), where there is a full index by stem. At any related term, like ψηφιακός (psifiakós), we end the brief Related Section with the phrase: and see ψήφος (psífos).

The central Related sections are not thesauri. They are the index a...z of all compounds, derivatives or etymologically related terms. This index is not repeated, except partially. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 13:27, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not unsympathetic to these arguments as far as they concern the interlinking and repetition of related terms lists. But is there anything Greek-specific about this template? Perhaps we could replace all uses of {{see}} with {{also}} and move this template to {{see}}. This, that and the other (talk) 02:06, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek, This, that and the other, Saltmarsh I think generalizing {{el-see}} to {{see}} is a great solution. What do you think? If everyone agrees, I can do this work; the number of current uses of {{see}} is about 800, which are easily replaceable with {{also}} using a bot. Then {{el-see}} can be replaced with {{see|el}} (same number of characters). Benwing2 (talk) 03:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the constructive response! There's nothing Greek-specific at all about {{el-see}}. Except at the time there was no generic alternative. I think it should retain the {{l}}-related structure — by all means go ahead — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:11, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh I have renamed the existing {{see}} -> {{also}}. I am in the process of writing {{see}} to work like {{el-see}} but support multiple terms; I have to finish this tomorrow though as it's nearly 1:30am here and time to go to sleep :) ... Benwing2 (talk) 06:25, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, thank you. A multipositional template would be very nice. @Saltmarsh's el-see inspired the el:Template:cf for such a function. It can be used in any text, and is very useful. Thanks. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 07:12, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 — Sounds good, thank you — Saltmarsh^🢃 08:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, Sarri.greek Should be working now at {{see}}. Benwing2 (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, Sarri.greek Do you mind if I do a run to convert existing uses of {{el-see}} to {{see}}? BTW the templates work almost the same, but the handling of gender is a bit different. Because there are multiple terms, the |g= param takes a comma-separated list of genders. In addition, in place of c use mf to indicate something that can be either masculine or feminine. Benwing2 (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Benwing2, Sarri.greek Sorry for the delay and thank you for your work on this. I have just noted that in some places {{el-see}} has been used with positional arguments, they don't work but I would like try and isolate and correct these before you do anything - I hope that is OK? Just one question — is there an intention that comma separated gender parameters should become general (in HWLs, {{l}}, etc)? If not this may confuse. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

PS BUT I do think that it's a good idea! — Saltmarsh^🢃

@Saltmarsh Hi. I already started running the conversion script but it has a check in it for positional arguments other than |1=, and refuses to make any changes in that case (and outputs a warning to the log file). It should finish soon and at that point all the remaining uses of {{el-see}} will be those involving mistaken positional arguments. As for comma-separated gender params, this is currently supported everywhere there are multiple positional terms ({{syn}}/{{ant}}, {{alt}}, {{desc}}, {{affix}}, ...). It's not yet supported for {{l}} and other templates supporting only one term, but IMO it would be a good idea to support it. Benwing2 (talk) 05:55, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Sarri.greek I see now the need for comma separated |g= because of the use of |g2= with additional terms.

And I have found some badly argumented uses of {{el-see}} and would like to correct those that I can find before you make the change. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:00, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh OK, I stopped the conversion script running. Generally the bad arguments get caught when changed to {{see}} because of the validation that's now in place, and I have been fixing them as I've seen them. Let me know when you are ready for me to resume the script, thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 06:03, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 OOps! I understand. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Thank you waiting - may I leave the rest for you - thanks — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:44, 25 July 2022 (UTC)