Talk:虹

Radical

Why does this have the "insect" radical? 66.61.86.88 03:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe because rainbows, like rivers, were related to snakes/serpents in ancient China? 66.61.86.88 03:30, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

It has to do with the shape of the rainbow resembling the archtypal insect (in the minds of the ancient Chinese anyway). That's why its archaic counterpart 螮蝀 also shares the same radical. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 03:34, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Japanese term

@Chuterix, while we do have a quote from the Kojiki, that text spells the word using the kanji for its meaning, leaving us with no phonetic information.

Can you find any instance of niji, nuji, or noji spelled out phonetically in Old Japanese? Time allowing, I'll have a look in the MYS later today. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr: two problematics, the Old Japanese references of niji and nuji are based on later glosses of Kanenaga-bon and Kitano-bon, respectively. The noji is the Central EOJ reading based on this Azuma poem. How do you fare my recent edits to this character entry? ～ POKéTalker（＝◉＝） 13:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Poketalker, since you asked, here're my thoughts.  :)

We had already indicated that the noji reading was attested first in the Kitano-bon from the late Heian.

We also have the ambiguous 怒自 man'yōgana spelling from the Man'yōshū, either nuji or no₁ji.

Thank you for creating the OJP entry. I am confused and concerned that you did not include the attested readings there. I see that you included synonym links to のじ and ぬじ, but these are not OJP synonyms so much as alternative readings of the same word, at least as far as Japanese references indicate. In addition, I didn't think we were using kana for OJP headwords, since we cannot differentiate 甲・乙 vowel values that way -- and kana didn't exist for OJP anyway.

I am also confused that you include the usex from the Wamyōshō and yet removed mention of that from the etymology, even though the Wamyōshō is some 140+ years earlier than the Konkōmyō Saishōō-kyō Ongi. That removal doesn't make sense to me.

And lastly, for the Proto-Japonic reconstruction, unless we have evidence of a Ryukyuan form neji, we have no reason to reconstruct Proto nensi rather than ninsi. For that matter, given the MYS spelling and the Ryukyuan reflexes, we have clear evidence for reconstructing Proto nonsi instead, since Proto vowel /o/ appears in Old Japanese as /o₁/ or /u/ -- exactly the vowels we get for the MYS spelling 怒自.

I must run to attend to things IRL. I hope the above might be helpful. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Poketalker, quick additional thought -- we see what might be a similar /u/ ↔ /i/ shift between OJP 魚 (uo) and dialectal 魚 (io). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:39, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr, @Poketalker: Proto-Japonic *o(y)wo (fish)? (initial *o- is reconstructed based off of PJ *omi (sea). Okinawan cognate appears to be iyu (forgot to say this is from Proto-Ryukyuan *iwo).

Tentative reconstruction: PJ *n(V)o(V)nsi (rainbow)? PR form tentatively *nozi. Not attested in Omoro Sōshi. Okinawan form nūzi, perhaps real PR reconstruction *noozi? This matches Vovin (2010)'s PR reconstruction, in which thus he reconstructs PJ *noonsi. (next sentence in passing) The same elongation of Okinawan sūra (treetop) shoukd provide evidence for PR *soora (top) and PJ *so(o [?])ra (sky).

In ONCOJ corpus, I can only find no₁zi (EOJ term for rainbow) in an Azuma Uta. This leaves modern Japanese niji unexplained.

Shiftings are very puzzling. Especially for OJ 伊致寐姑 (itibi₁ko₁, old term for いちご (ichigo, “strawberry”)) and Okinawan ichubi < PJ *ito(y)np(p/i)(ko)?. Chuterix (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix, what is the basis for relating the derivation for "fish" with the derivation for "sea"? Phonemically, I mean. It might just be morning 😄, but I don't recall reading that these two terms are related. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

(coming back) @Eirikr: See etymology of 海 (umi, “sea”).

Now, (resign Chuterix (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)) Ryukyuan rainbow cognates (that I collected; resign Chuterix (talk) 14:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)). Tentative (NOT FINAL) Proto-Ryukyuan reconstruction *NŌZI, marked in all caps. Some dialect info will be provided.

• Northern Ryukyuan:
  • Kikai: 虹 (niji) (Araki, Jōbutetsu)
  • ⇒ Kunigami: 天と゚ー虹 (tintōnōjiri) (< *ten-to-NŌZI(-ri?)) (fix resign Chuterix (talk) 14:14, 1 June 2023 (UTC))
  • Northern Amami Ōshima: 虹 (nōgi)
  • Okinawan: 虹 (nūji)
  • Okinoerabu: 虹 (nōgi) (Tamina)
  • Southern Amami Ōshima: 虹 (nokyi, nok) (Shodon)
  • Tokunoshima: 虹 (nōji) (Asama)
  • ⇒ Yoron: 虹 (gōnuji)
• Southern Ryukyuan:
  • Miyako: 虹 (nūzï)
  • Yaeyama: 虹 (nūji) (Hatoma)

Yonaguni uses あみぬまゆ (aminumayu, literally “[UNKNOWN] of the rain/sky?”) or あみぬみや (aminumiya, literally “capital of the rain/sky?”) for rainbow and is unrelated to PR *NŌZI here.

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole): , also @Kwékwlos, Mellohi!: what do you think? Chuterix (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

It appears that the PR reconstruction is *nozi, with Okinawan-specific lengthening of the first vowel, from which the other Ryukyuan languages borrowed (they would have short vowels if inherited). The -mayu in Yonaguni is identical to "brow". Kwékwlos (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

What about the unraised vowels and the */-z-/ shift to /-g-/; both in Northern Amami-Oshima (Yamatohama dialect) and Toku-No-Shima (Asama dialect)? Chuterix (talk) 14:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos. Don't you think they borrowed each other? Or is it individual innovation? Chuterix (talk) 14:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Also @Kwékwlos, do you also think -miya in Yonaguni means "palace"? I made a mistake and ended up translating miyako instead. I was assuming it literally meant "Palace of the sky". Chuterix (talk) 14:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

It should. Kwékwlos (talk) 14:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

There is undoubtedly evidence of lexical borrowing here, with *z > g an attempt to "nativize" the loanword. Kwékwlos (talk) 14:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos What about Yoron without elongated /-u-/ in nuji? Another nativization?

Comparing with Old Japanese no1zi/nuzi, modern niji (hypothetical OJ *nizi?), what is Proto-Japonic reconstruction?

Immediately after writing this question, I had came up with this question:

@Kwékwlos: why did Yonaguni choose to use their own compound instead of descending from PR? Are they resistant of the Okinawan substratum? Chuterix (talk) 14:34, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Either, but more likely nativization. The PJ form should be *nuansi, with the WOJ reflex innovating /i/. It appears that the Southern Ryukyuan area made compound terms before borrowing the word, which did not happen in Yonaguni. In Miyako, tin-pav means "sky-snake" for example. Kwékwlos (talk) 14:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Any other instances of PJ diphthong */-ua-/ raising to /-u-/ in EOJ? Otherwise I argue this PJ reconstruction should be *nonsi, also as I think about the problem of 努 being both no1 and nu. ONCOJ uses ambiguity, romanizing both nwozi (no1zi) or nuzi. The poem romanization spells nwozi (no1zi). Vovin (2012) romanizes nôNsi (no1zi). Anyways that's all (for now; resign Chuterix (talk) 15:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)). ありがとうございました。 Chuterix (talk) 15:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos. ^

Also what is the final -ri in the Kunigami term mean? Let alone the Kunigami term for rainbow itself? Another borrowing from Okinawan substratum? Chuterix (talk) 15:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't know. Kwékwlos (talk) 15:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos You did not answer my vowel raising question. Chuterix (talk) 15:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh, well the PJ should be *nonsi then. Kwékwlos (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: P.S. I forgot to say, I remember that there was indeed a noji and nuji term. See Poketalkers message above:

(@) Eirikr: two problematics, the Old Japanese references of niji and nuji are based on later glosses of Kanenaga-bon and Kitano-bon, respectively. The noji is the Central EOJ reading based on this Azuma poem. How do you fare my recent edits to this character entry? ～ POKéTalker（＝◉＝） 13:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Also @Kwékwlos: indeed PJ should be *nonsi. The dialectal terms listed here may be innovations. (See aramaki monozofu's comment about niji.) Chuterix (talk) 15:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Lol @Kwékwlos you replied during my typing.

Forgot to mention this Kunigami is Nakijin. Kin dialect of Kunigami (JLect; also not dealing with this word for PR descendants) is nōji, perhaps involved in the Okinawan substratum with local innovation (vowel lowering or possibly the older form)?

Is it like 曇り (kumori, “cloudy”), from kumoru, ultimately from 雲 (kumo, “cloud”), whose reflected in Kunigami (Nakijin) as 曇い (kumui)? Perhaps late innovation due to no */-r-/ loss? But clearly first mora is cognate with 天 (ten, “sky; heaven”), from Middle Chinese 天 (MC then). That's all for now. Chuterix (talk) 15:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

No, it is /mjoːzi/ or like that in some mainland Japanese dialects, never *nuansi.[1] And this word was <RL> in Heian Kyoto, which is exceptional accent pattern suggesting 3-mola origin. Note n/mʲ alternation found in some native Japanese words which seems even older than the Proto-Japonic.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 09:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe I remember it was FL in NKD (japanknowledge), and there's irregular high pitch on a long vowel that doesn't exist in Japanese, so is this some *nEoNsi ~ *nOoNsi? Chuterix (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos Oops Oki-no-erabu (Tamina [dialect]), not toku-no-shima. Hope this mistake didn't affect anything.

Also created PJ *nonsi and PR *nozi entries. Chuterix (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)