Talk:بلنجمشک
Add topicLatest comment: 4 years ago by Fay Freak
@Fay Freak: This is related to Persian بالنگ (bâlang, “citron”), probably cognate with Sanskrit mātuluṅga-, mātulaṅga-.--Calak (talk) 12:46, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Calak: But this is still the same word, yes? Why has this word so many variants? بادرنگ (bâdrang) has an etymology but it still does not explain it. Fay Freak (talk) 13:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, same word. This is NP bâlang development: NP bâlang < *bārdang < *bādrang < MP wādrang (with regular developments: MP w- > NP b- and OIr -rd > MP/NP -l). bâdrang is original form without metathesis. wârang is a loanword form another Iranian language (NP doesnt keep MP initial w-).--Calak (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Calak: Regarding your question about պատրինջ (patrinǰ), I have put it at Arabic بَاذَرُوج (bāḏarūj, “lemon balm”) which it means. It is probably also not old and thus interesting enough to appear on ܛܪܘܓܐ (ṭruggā), well in fact unrelated to it, as also that Middle Persian? Because we have ترنج (turunj, turanj), apparently a different word. @Vahagn Petrosyan. Or you tell me it’s also the same, Calak? Fay Freak (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Do you know anything about Aramaic ētrūngā and eṭrōjā and Hebrew eṭrōj?--Calak (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I only know what is already written on Wiktionary, that it is from Iranian. But I see now you say Persian بالنگ (bâlang, “citron”) is probably cognate with mātuluṅga-, and this is here said to be related to ترنج (turunj). Can both be true? Are ترنج (turunj, turanj) and بادرنگ (bâdrang) doublets and how? Fay Freak (talk) 16:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I see … if you derive Persian ترنج (turunj) from Arabic تُرُنْج (turunj), then we need an origin for the Arabic. Perhaps from the same source as Classical Syriac ܛܪܘܓܐ (ṭruggā). Lost source? Some see the تُرُنْج (turunj), أُتْرُجّ (ʔutrujj) and the Aramaic forms of this form as corruptions of نَارَنْج (nāranj) (“alles Korruptionen aus narandj” in Handbuch der Pharmakognosie 1933). It only gets more confused. Fay Freak (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is well imaginable that تُرُنْج (turunj) is just an Arabic variant of أُتْرُجّ (ʔutrujj), that is أُتْرُنْج (ʔutrunj), prothesis being frequent in four-consonant words: It is like the alternation إِفْرِنْد (ʔifrind) ←→ فِرِنْد (firind). I find this explanation satisfying. Fay Freak (talk) 16:59, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I see … if you derive Persian ترنج (turunj) from Arabic تُرُنْج (turunj), then we need an origin for the Arabic. Perhaps from the same source as Classical Syriac ܛܪܘܓܐ (ṭruggā). Lost source? Some see the تُرُنْج (turunj), أُتْرُجّ (ʔutrujj) and the Aramaic forms of this form as corruptions of نَارَنْج (nāranj) (“alles Korruptionen aus narandj” in Handbuch der Pharmakognosie 1933). It only gets more confused. Fay Freak (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- I only know what is already written on Wiktionary, that it is from Iranian. But I see now you say Persian بالنگ (bâlang, “citron”) is probably cognate with mātuluṅga-, and this is here said to be related to ترنج (turunj). Can both be true? Are ترنج (turunj, turanj) and بادرنگ (bâdrang) doublets and how? Fay Freak (talk) 16:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Do you know anything about Aramaic ētrūngā and eṭrōjā and Hebrew eṭrōj?--Calak (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Calak: Regarding your question about պատրինջ (patrinǰ), I have put it at Arabic بَاذَرُوج (bāḏarūj, “lemon balm”) which it means. It is probably also not old and thus interesting enough to appear on ܛܪܘܓܐ (ṭruggā), well in fact unrelated to it, as also that Middle Persian? Because we have ترنج (turunj, turanj), apparently a different word. @Vahagn Petrosyan. Or you tell me it’s also the same, Calak? Fay Freak (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, same word. This is NP bâlang development: NP bâlang < *bārdang < *bādrang < MP wādrang (with regular developments: MP w- > NP b- and OIr -rd > MP/NP -l). bâdrang is original form without metathesis. wârang is a loanword form another Iranian language (NP doesnt keep MP initial w-).--Calak (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I added պատրինջ (patrinǰ), which is not old and is peculiar to the New Julfa dialect in Iran. It must be closely related to Azerbaijani badrənc. The Arabic forms listed at Arabic بَاذَرُوج (bāḏarūj) do not suit well. I think they are from an unattested (?) Arabicized Persian bādrinj. Similar to Armenian նարինջ (narinǰ) / Azerbaijani narınc from the Arabicized Persian, rather than the Arabic nāranj. --Vahag (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- It might have also existed, like in the complete form بَاذَرَنْجَبُويَة (bāḏaranjabūya). But the -n- epenthesis can also have appeared in Persian, Azeri or Turkish without being borrowed in this form from Arabic, because it is in the long form and in بادرنگ (bâdrang), so it could have been up-corrected. Ominously this Turkish-Arabic dictionary has بادرنج as Arabic, else the few hits for
"بادرنج"on Google Books and the Web are Persian, and there is Ottoman Turkish بادرنج (badrenc) in Ottoman, as well as بادرنج بویه. Fay Freak (talk) 18:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- It might have also existed, like in the complete form بَاذَرَنْجَبُويَة (bāḏaranjabūya). But the -n- epenthesis can also have appeared in Persian, Azeri or Turkish without being borrowed in this form from Arabic, because it is in the long form and in بادرنگ (bâdrang), so it could have been up-corrected. Ominously this Turkish-Arabic dictionary has بادرنج as Arabic, else the few hits for
- It seems that they are doublets. MP wādrang is from earlier wādrūng (compare Parthian wādrūng) and they are from earlier *wātrūng. Arabic تُرُنْج (turunj) should be from Iranian *trung (via Syriac). أُ (ʔu) in أُتْرُنْج (ʔutrunj) is a prothesis to break tr- consonant cluster. Now we have Iranian *wātrūng and *trung. It seems that *wātrūng is from wā? + trung.--Calak (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Asatrian derives Arm. patrinj from Middle Arm., from Arabicized Persian bādrinj and says it is not old.--Calak (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)