Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/o(b)

RFM discussion: July 2014–May 2017

See Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/sъ(n)#RFM discussion: July 2014–May 2017.

Abessive function

Old Church Slavonic о (o) (not sure for Old Church Slavonic об (ob)) can also have abessive function. Words such as *ostrovъ (“island”) (literally one that does not flow) and *osojь (“shady place”) (literally place that is not lit by the sun) come to mind with this meaning. I'm not entirely sure if Old Church Slavonic о (o, “devoid of”) exactly reflect Proto-Slavic *o(b) or continues Proto-Indo-European *h₂e/*h₃e (possibly but not very likely Proto-Indo-European *n̥- (“not”)) but in case there is no further evidence to reconstruct a preposition Proto-Slavic *o, we should add the proposed meaning under *o(b). Bezimenen (talk) 12:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Remark: Edited in response to @Useigor. Originally, I translated it as "alternative, opposite of" for lack of better words, which does not reflect exactly what I meant.

• @Bezimenen 1) I don't see who explains *ostrovъ (“island”) as "one that does not flow". In the given dictionaries it's explained as "what gets flow around (обтекаемое)", in other words "land surrounded by flowing water". 2) *osojь is related to *sijati (“to shine”), *sěnь (“shadow”) and cognate to Ancient Greek σκιά (skiá, “shadow”), Proto-Germanic *skīnaną (“to shine”). Therefore meaning of the prefix is not significant. —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I've been looking on the words for shadow in proto-Indo-European and unfortunately there is no general consensus what root they reflect. At least, what Wiktionary gives for Ancient Greek σκιά (skiá) is not identical to the root that gave Proto-Slavic *sijati. As far as what I could find, the Slavic data reflects Proto-Indo-European *(s)ḱeyh₁- (“to shine, to shimmer”), while the Greek is derived from Proto-Indo-European *skeH- (“to darken”) (either reconstructed as Proto-Indo-European *skeh₂- or as Proto-Indo-European *skeh₃-). So the two may not actually be cognates.
  • I agree that the interpretation of *ostrovъ as what the stream flows around also makes sense, but nevertheless the abessive meaning is still well attested. Here is a reference: Snoj, Marko (2016) “ob²”, in Slovenski etimološki slovar [Slovenian Etymology Dictionary] (in Slovene), 3rd edition, https://fran.si. Snoj gives as an example Polish ogławianie (“circumcision”). Bezimenen (talk) 22:21, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
    • *ostrovъ: There is *otъ with similar meaning (e.g. Russian отрубить (otrubitʹ, “to cut off”), Slovene odročiti (odrozhíti) (“to behand”)) and it had ъ-less variant *o(t) judging by forms отрокъ (otrokŭ), отити (otiti) and possibly also отъкрꙑти (otŭkryti)/окрꙑти (okryti), Polish odkupić/okupić, Serbo-Croatian odskòčiti/oskòčiti (for more words see this). Therefore Polish ogławianie (“beheading”) may contain prefix Polish od-.
    • *osoje: This problem is complicated. If words *sijati (“to shine”) and *sěnь (“shadow”) are related, then *osoje is not issue and it's derived from *osijati. But i couldn't find exact analogs:
      • "to shine > to reflect" (Chinese 映射 (yìngshè), 映照 (yìngzhào)?, Korean 비치다 (bichida)?, Mongolian тусах (tusax))
      • "reflection > shadow" (couldn't find, particularly in *otъblěskъ, *otъsvětъ, *osvětъ)
      • "reflection < shadow" ((English shadow, Sanskrit छाया (chāyā), Thai เงา (ngao), Khmer ស្រមោល (srɑmaol), Scottish Gaelic sgàile, also Old Norse skuggi (“shadow”) and Gothic 𐍃𐌺𐌿𐌲𐌲𐍅𐌰 (skuggwa, “mirror”)))
    • If "shadow" can't be derived from "to shine", then the words may be are unrelated (especially if *stěnь is variant to *sěnь). Then *osoje (and likely antonymous присое (prisoe), prisoje) can be derived from noun **soj- (“sunshine”), from *sijati. Compare forms *otъsъlnьje (from noun), *otъbaviti (from noun via verb *baviti). —Игорь Тълкачь (talk) 14:32, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
    • @Useigor:: In principle, we could also explain *osojь as a place which sun rays shine around (and effectively does not get lit). Just like the explanation you gave to *ostrovъ. Nevertheless, even if we ignore *ostrovъ, *osoje, there are other examples like the ones suggested by Snoj which exemplify the abessive function of *o. I don't insist that we should base the proposed function exactly on *ostrovъ and *osoje. I just proposed them from the top of my head, without thinking whether they could be explained otherwise (and, as it turns out, they can). Bezimenen (talk) 16:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)