Wiktionary:Information desk/2024/June

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Formatting typo in declension table for Russian word "воздух".

On the page for воздух (Russian, noun, first definition), the declension table appears to have a typo. Each plural declension appears with a "*" character in front and is not a link. Additionally, the transliterations into Latin script are tagged in the page source as lang="ru", where they should be lang="ru-Latn". I'm under the impression that the table should be formatted identically to the second definition declension table on the same page.

I had tried to edit to fix, but the table is not hard coded into the page and I don't know how to edit it (nor do I generally know how to do anything on Wiktionary).

Hopefully this is the right place to mention this. 2601:14D:4A80:B757:83CD:37AC:A96D:BE1D 20:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the asterisk signifies these forms are not attested for the non-religious senses. These senses seem rather uncountable.  --Lambiam 11:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I had thought something like that was the case until I looked at the DOM (right click -> inspect) and saw that the lang attribute was listed as "ru" instead of "ru-Latn".

For example, the religious sense:

<span lang="ru-Latn" class="tr Latn" style="color: #888;">vózdux</span>

vs the non-religious sense:

<i class="Latn hypothetical" lang="ru">vózduxi</i>

Using lang="ru" seems to be an error because the language of the text is not, in fact, Russian.

But maybe I'm just misunderstanding the semantics of the lang attribute when used with "Latn hypotheical". 2601:14D:4A80:B757:FA52:201B:C630:35EB 19:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Can I include words from my conlang's lexicon to wiktionary? If so, how?

Title says it all, I was thinking of adding words from kașu, my conlang's lexicon to wiktionary, and saw that other conlangs used an appendix, such as Toki Pona. Is it ok for me to do this or should I resort to other places to archive the lexicon? Aoscf77 (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

The appendix namespace is very flexible in what it allows, including some pretty trivial or just-for-fun things, but it does not allow for what is essentially personal hosting for projects like this. We do not have a single, unified constructed language policy, but it so happens that we are about to have a vote on the topic which is somewhat relevant: Wiktionary:Votes/2024-06/CFI for mainspace constructed languages (somewhat in as much as it's actually about the main namespace and potentially relegating some constructed languages to the appendix namespace). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Use a personal page like User:Aoscf77/kașu. - Nicodene (talk) 07:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I wasn't sure if it would be something like that, thanks for letting me know ^^ Aoscf77 (talk) 10:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I should have explained this. The userspace has even more flexibility and as long as you have something generally language-related, you should be fine keeping it there. Userspace is not free hosting for whatever, but is acceptable for parking something that could in principle be part of the dictionary later. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Interwiki links

Interwiki linking help page states the following: An interwiki link is a special link from a page on the English Wiktionary to a similar page on another Wikimedia project. These links do not show up in the page itself, but are displayed in a toolbar to the left.

Yet, when I add such a link to a wiktionary page and publish my changes, I get a warning that interwiki links should not be used for translations. What I'm trying to achieve, is to get the other language to appear in the language list (Sidebar or top of the page). Dangits (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

This is kind of a subtle point that makes Wiktionary different from its sister projects. If you are on the English language Wikipedia and go to w:en:foot and want to learn more about the topic, the Spanish language equivalent is at w:es:pie. The two ideas have two different words that represent them in the two languages. Here on Wiktionary, if you go to our entry "pie", it is not about the concept of a foot nor is it about the concept of a dessert, which is what "pie" means in English. Instead, it is about any words in any languages that are spelled "pie", so this includes the English "py" which means a sweet treat and the Spanish "pee-yay" which means the appendage at the bottom of your leg. So the interwiki links at pie should link to other Wiktionary editions where they have entries for the word spelled "pie", not interwiki links that translate "pie" in English to other languages. Does that make sense? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes it does. Thank you for your throughout explanation. I will fix my interwikilink changes and apply instructions from the Translations help-page. Dangits (talk) 19:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

ἀγαπᾰ́ω

In the page ἀγαπᾰ́ω (Classical Greek), there are no tables on the middle and passive voice of the perfect tense in the inflection. I wonder why. Many textbooks show the tables corresponding to these categories. If the editors omit them for some reason, they should refer to it, I think. 14.14.50.77 21:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

how to vote

how do i vote on this? [Make No personal attacks an official policy] or can i not vote until I have made more than a certain amount of edits? L0ngh3nry89 (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:Voting policy. Let me know if you have any questions. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:04, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

CFI: Consensus for Small Languages

WT:ATTEST in the subsection Number of Citations states that … the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate as the only sources for entries based on a single mention…. Could anyone point me to the right way for the Pontic Greek, Scottish Gaelic, and other communities, and procedures related to these languages on English WT? Thank you! –Konanen (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The typical fora for discussion language-policies are the WT:Beer parlour or very often language consideration pages, i.e. WT:About Scottish Gaelic on the discussion page, where you can ping other editors about sources. See also Category:Scottish Gaelic reference templates. ~~ Vininn126 (talk) 13:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Scottish Gaelic has an "About" page: Wiktionary:About Scottish Gaelic. Those are the starting place for finding out about community standards, if they exist. As for Pontic Greek, there is Category:Pontic Greek reference templates, but I don't know if all of them are considered authoritative. Greek is a bit complicated, with CAT:Mycenaean Greek language, CAT:Ancient Greek language, CAT:Greek language, etc. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Etymology tree

I saw an etymology tree in English biology and want to use that for other indexes. How can I do that? Thank you! Duchuyfootball (talk) 02:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

There was a recent vote on this format, so it's pretty new. Maybe if you look at this edit, you can see how it was done. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Is this a copyright infringement?

I would appreciate if someone takes a look at this edit of mine. The Hebrew text in the quotation (copied-and-pasted from the Hebrew Wikisource) is in the public domain. My question is about the translation, which is probably copyrighted. Also any help regarding the general layout would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Sije (talk) 21:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I've undone it for now. I'm not sure if I need to hide the revision, too. For future reference, always read the copyright and licensing information at any site you take content from. The site in question prohibits distribution of its content without prior written consent. The only way you can add copyrighted content to Wiktionary that isn't covered by exemptions such as Fair use is with the permission or license of the copyright holder. There are some websites that have Creative Commons licenses compatible with ours (see the links at the bottom of the page)- those you can use with the required attribution. Otherwise, the copyright holder would have to give you explicit permission to use it. Wiktionary is built on the intellectual property given us by our contributors, so respecting intellectual property rights of others is critical. I'm not a lawyer, so I might as well ping @BD2412 and @Theknightwho to fill in anything I missed. Chuck Entz (talk)

@Sije, Chuck Entz I'm not an intellectual property lawyer, but my understanding is that translations are protected to the same degree that any other text is; i.e. using them for a single quotation (or a handful) is absolutely fine. Theknightwho (talk) 22:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I wouldn't copy that word for word. It would be better to paraphrase, or find a translation that is also in the public domain. bd2412 T 22:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not, unless the reference is insufficient: apparently you should add “Rabbi Eliyahu Touger (Moznaim Publishing, 1986–2007)” (the information, not the exact formatting) rather than “translation by alhatorah.org” and an URL to it with further information, which only arguably suffices fair use ≈ in continental law right to quote. You can quote as much as suits you to make a point: in the present extent it was as short as even possible, save for making your own translation, which might not differ much, so threshold of originality is also rather doubtful, in which case not even fair use is needed.

For your general understanding, this is not merely a question of concepts within copyright legislation per se but the application of the fundamental rights of your respective jurisdiction: you have a right to do science and to utter your opinion, freedom of speech, so the statutory provisions for your case must be interpreted in the light of them, lest they themselves be unconstitutional, → Wechselwirkungslehre. Fay Freak (talk) 04:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• As a general rule, though, a sentence translation from a copyrighted page isn't gonna annoy anyone. My advice is to continue, and not to tell anyone about it. Jin and Tonik (talk) 22:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

  That's enough gin and tonic for you, Wonderfool, go to bed. Vininn126 (talk) 07:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

How can I edit a list

In Turkish, they don't capitalize the the months of the year. I am working on fixing the entries. At the bottom of each month entry, e.g. şevval, there is a list of (Islamic calendar months). How can I edit this list to remove the capitalization?

• (Islamic calendar months) Hicrî takvim ayları; muharrem, safer, rebiyülevvel, rebiyülahir, cemaziyelevvel, cemaziyelahir, recep, şaban, ramazan, şevval, zilkade, zilhicce ^{(Category: tr:Islamic calendar months)}

Munzirtaha (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I figured this out myself and corrected them. Munzirtaha (talk) 23:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

The rule appears to be widely unknown (or ignored). The Turkish Wikipedia, for example, spells these names, as well as the secular month names, with a capital letter. So do the major newspapers (Hürriyet, Sabah, Posta, ...). The TDK’s Güncel Türkçe Sözlük uses lower case.  --Lambiam 00:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Tired of having to click "show more ▼"

See that "show more ▼" on the bottom of e.g., người#See_also. Well, I am officially tired of having to click it. So why can't there be a "gadget" to open them up for me before I encounter them? Thanks. Jidanni (talk) 07:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

There is, look for the 'Visibility' section on the left-hand sidebar. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 07:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

"mixture of skill and chance" on gambling#English isn't consistent with other sources, including Wikipedia:Gambling

"An activity [...] governed by a mixture of skill and chance"

Wikipedia:Gambling has the following.. "Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random event with the intent of winning something else of value, where instances of strategy are discounted"

Thus not "skill" as skill is "discounted", mostly chance. This is not clear from the wiktionary definition here.

Cambridge dictionary has a definition which is also inconsistent.. "the activity of risking money on the result of something, such as a game or horse race, hoping to make money". Thus not "skill" but only chance. Ybllaw (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Our definition is not optimal, but the other definitions also seem not quite up to the task. What about, simply,

"The act of taking a risk with the potential of a positive outcome."

?  --Lambiam 13:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)