Wiktionary:Information desk/2022/February

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← January 2022 · February 2022 · March 2022 → · (current)

---

Creating a Leipzig-Jakarta list appendix

Hello everyone,

Since I'm interested in Indo-European studies, I would like to create an appendix to the Wiktionary that contains the Leipzig-Jakarta list for the Proto-Indo-European language and perhaps some other languages from this branch. A Leipzig-Jakarta list is very similar to a Swadesh list, the difference being that the former is based on a systematic search for words that are the most resistant to borrowing. The result is a set of 100 words compiled by many different language experts and based on the World Loanword Database by the Max Planck Institute.

I think this list could be of value to the project, since it is used by many linguists in their work, including historical linguistics and computational linguistics.

My question is: do I just go for it, create a list for PIE, place it in a "Leipzig-Jakarta lists" category and place that category in the "Appendices" category, or is there some kind of formal procedure to introduce more appendices?

Thanks for your time. --Lindeby (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I’m fairly sure we don’t have a formal procedure for adding Leipzig–Jakarta lists. Just like we have an Appendix:Proto-Indo-European Swadesh list in the categories Category:Proto-Indo-European appendices and Category:Swadesh lists by language, we can have an Appendix:Proto-Indo-European Leipzig–Jakarta list in Category:Proto-Indo-European appendices and Category:Leipzig–Jakarta lists by language. (Make sure to use an en-dash instead of a hyphen in “Leipzig–Jakarta”.)  --Lambiam 11:31, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll go and make the appendix then (with the em-dash).Lindeby (talk) 13:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

En-dash, not em-dash.  --Lambiam 11:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Linking to specific senses of words

As an example, the English noun peel has various distinct senses, including what you do to an orange and the gizmo for transferring pizzas into and out of the oven. So if I’m adding a definition in an entry for, say Russian (хлебная) лопата, I’d like the resulting link to point not to the top of the entry for peel, but directly to its baking-related sense, which happens to be section 1.4 (with etymology 3). This behavior would be analogous to Wikipedia’s # mechanism. Is there a way to achieve that?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You can add a link target with the template Template:senseid. I don't know if this is considered the best way to do what you want.--Urszag (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I’d hoped there was a built-in way to do it, but I’m quite willing to create the IDs in order to be able to link to them—which is exactly what I had wanted to do!—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

How do I disable access keys?

I can disable access keys on Wikipedia, but how do I do it here on Wiktionary? It's not there in the preferences. Cosmia Nebula (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

How to look up old deletions

I'm sorry to bother you all but I was looking at feel like and I saw that feel like death is a red-link on that page. However, at the red link, we can see that 'feel like death' was deleted in 2009. I went to Wiktionary:Previously_deleted_entries/F but I didn't find the rationale for that entry's deletion. I'd like to ask: where should go to find why this entry was deleted? How I could have found this myself without asking here? Thanks for any guidance. Please ping me on this. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:50, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative:, this page did not require conversation, as the entirety of the entry was "wu". —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay well thank you. I have made the page. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:20, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

copyright infringement

howdy! i'm new around these parts, I spend most of my time at enwikipedia, but the english entry for snart appears to have been copy/pasted from urban dictionary by an IP having a little fun. I just removed it, but it should probably be revision-deleted as well. cheers! Theleekycauldron (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Meh, it's different enough - we changed a couple words FTW - advanced-level lexiskills, you know Br00pVain (talk) 02:13, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

It's a pretty poor entry all around. I would rfv it, but there's a humorous children's book and one or two other uses, so it would probably squeak through (I searched on "snarted", which mostly had scannos for "snarled" and "smarted". Many of Google's sentences in the results are rather entertaining in their supposed context, like an old sermon with the phrase "snarted under the yoke of sin"...). At any rate, stripping out the unecessary explanation of the anatomical mechanism involved would no doubt eliminate the copyright issues. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what? Here's the current wiktionary version:

The phenomenon where one sneezes and breaks wind at the same time. It is usually the result of sudden contractions of the abdominal muscles supporting the diaphragm caused by a sneeze, thus triggering flatulence.

And here's the urban dictionary:

When one sneezes and breaks wind at the same time. It is usually a result of the sudden abdominal muscle contractions associated with supporting the diaphragm for the sneeze, thus triggering the fart.

this is clearly stolen content—plus, it's stolen from urban dictionary, this isn't an actual definition. This is someone in 2009 having a laugh and someone else adding it here in 2020, it's not real. Theleekycauldron (talk) 06:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I removed the second sentence which did indeed seem plagiarized to my eyes, and was on the superfluous side anyway. What remains is likely below the threshold of originality for copyright, but if you want you could edit it to use "passes gas" instead of "breaks wind" and "simultaneously" instead of "at the same time". It's not like the word "snart" itself or the concept of sternutation in combination with flatulence itself is copyrighted.

In response to your claim that the word is not real: our criteria for inclusion state that any word with at least three quotations of real use—not just mentions—in durably archived media (books, papers, movies, etc.) can have an entry. I have added quotations to both the noun and verb senses of the entry that satisfy our attestation requirements; feel free to check them. 70.172.194.25 07:10, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

fair enough, I'll concede its inclusion :) looks fine re: copyright now. Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Turkish agglutination

Sorry if it's the wrong forum. If so, please help me to find the right forum. I'm looking for some website to break Turkish words into their building blocks, such as bende --> ben + de. Is there any such website? Thanks 4nn1l2 (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think such a tool exists online. See also the discussion about a “word decompiler” at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2022/January § Should we have entries for Turkish predicative forms?.  --Lambiam 10:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Input on my new entry

Hi, does anyone have any feedback on my new creation office drone? I'm very new to wt. thanks, 184.19.98.82 22:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

It is well-formed and I think a valid entry. I could imagine someone else calling it SOP, but I think it would be a stronger argument to say that it's not. As you can see, I made some light edits to this entry and relevant ones as well. These can always be improved, but if all you did here was add new entries like this, it would e super-helpful. — This unsigned comment was added by Koavf (talk • contribs). 22:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Accidental NOV creation

I was going to create an entry with nov, but i accidentaly submitted before i was finished. i cannot remove the page,i dont know how. It was wælsceaft. 184.19.98.82 21:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I'll delete it for you and post the content to your talk page. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: was that really necessary? you may not have noticed, but I went to the trouble of fixing the page, with a proper headword template, definition, etymology, declension template and everything. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

It wasn't necessary, but it was requested. The IP above said that he wanted to remove the page, so I did it for him. I am undeleting per your edits. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf @Chuck Entz, thank you. — This unsigned comment was added by 184.19.98.82 (talk) at 12:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC).

vowel coloring

In a language with a generic phonology, would /äħ/, /äʕ/ and/or /äh/ at the end of a sylllable be likely to be pronounced as [ɑħ], [ɑʕ], or [ɑh]? Dngweh2s (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Are there languages with a generic phonology?  --Lambiam 11:21, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

lemma SARS-CoV-2ː Covid-19 not a hot word anymore

Covid-19 not a hot word (seeː Appendix:Glossary#hot_word ) anymore - as the common criterion "spanning at least one year" is now met. (Been spanning MY life for 2a now ;-9 ) Delete the HOT SENSE annotation ? --MistaPPPP (talk) 19:49, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

The sense under consideration is the use of "SARS-CoV-2" to refer to the disease, rather than the virus in particular. This is a weird combination of using a formal, cumbersome name and imprecise language. That said, I do think that the term has been used that way more than three times, given the huge breadth of literature on the pandemic, and the tendency for metonyms to develop. What's even more common is using COVID-19, the name for the illness, to refer to the virus; so it stands to reason that the converse would exist too.

If you want to add quotations spanning over a year so we can remove the {{hot sense}} warning, that would be great. If not, maybe I or someone else will take a look. 70.172.194.25 09:02, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to know if Swahili Nouns should be explained in en.wiktionary.org

So words like these:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dunia_Mpya

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kilimia

are Swahili proper nouns so should they be included in sw.wiktionary.org or en.wiktionary.org — This unsigned comment was added by Shufuwa (talk • contribs) at 04:22, 16 February 2022.

Swahili Wiktionary is for defining terms in Swahili, whether the terms belong to Swahili or other languages.

• Examples of Swahili Wiktionary's coverage of Swahili terms: sw:kileo, sw:binadamu. These are Swahili-Swahili definitions.
• Examples of Swahili Wiktionary's coverage of foreign terms: sw:ツチブタ defines a Japanese term in Swahili, sw:langue defines a French term in Swahili, etc.

English Wiktionary is for defining terms in English, whether the terms belong to English or other languages.

• English-English examples: hound, adapt
• English-(other language) examples: desconfiar (Spanish), عزيز (Arabic)

I hope that clears things up. Those entries do belong here, because they are definitions in English of Swahili terms. 70.172.194.25 04:56, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I see, thanks for clearing it up 2405:201:A006:9027:CFC:6469:6CD3:8E47 10:07, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Luxembourgish verb conjugation for 3rd person forms only

Hope someone can lend a hand, as templates still confuse me. I'm trying to figure out how to create a verb conjugation table for the Luxembourgish word aliichten which shows only the third person forms (in addition to past participle, auxiliary, and infinitive). Does the LB-conj-reg template allow for me to do this and how would I achieve this? Something like the conjugation table for DE schneien is what I'm aiming for. Thanks in advance. NeorxenoSwang (talk) 18:03, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I added |only3s=1 and |only3sp=1 options to {{lb-conj-regular}}. Based on the conjugation table on lod.lu, it looks like you might want the latter for that particular verb, but I'm not sure. 70.172.194.25 08:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Can't view a deleted revision despite being admin?

The article Wiktionary:Requested_entries has a revision at 02:15, 5 April 2021 that I can't view (it's stricken out twice), despite being an admin. How can that be? — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 16:04, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fytcha: mw:RevDel, see also w:en:WP:OFFICE. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

It works fine for me. On hidden revisions, it says "You can still view this diff if you wish to proceed.". You have to click on "view this diff" before it becomes visible. Not that it's really worth the effort- this is an exhibitionist vandal who needs to show off how offensive they can be- sort of like "watch me take a dump in front of a room full of people." Chuck Entz (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't work for me (unlike other revisions of that page which are only struckthrough once and which I can view by the method you describe); I wonder if you can see it because you have bureaucrat or checkuser rights. Interesting that someone felt the need to apply such a high, OFFICE-like level of hiding to that kind of vandalism, but I suppose it does not really matter. - -sche (discuss) 18:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: But I can't even click on "prev" which is where I usually click to see deleted revisions. It's not a link, it looks as though I were a non-admin: https://imgur.com/oAigNXZ If you have no issues seeing that revision, it probably is related to the fact that you have more permissions as -sche pointed out. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 18:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Battle Axe Culture language

This is a bit of a naive question, as I have frequented r/indoeuroean (the mods are commendable, the moderation of users not so, not always), where I became exposed to StJ, a Youtube channel, when it was canceled from facebook for whatever reason. The criticism aside, his apology was the first time I have heard of the battle axe cultre, a non-IE'an haplogroup in Skandinavia in one context. Can we associate a language or at least a language family with that? ApisAzuli (talk) 19:07, 18 February 2022 (UTC) I have meanwhile registered a ban on reddit, FYI, hence I'm posting here.--ApisAzuli (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Battle Axe culture#Ethnicity does not make it sound non-IE. 70.172.194.25 08:23, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Replacement of An Audio Clip

Hello, Miss/Mister, of the entry of the word broach in the English language, please replace the audio clip that is ostensively attributed as (UK) and which is immediately below the IPA transcription of the standard British pronunciation, because its pronunciation of the word's first 4 phonemes — i.e. the brəʊ — does not sound well matched to its IPA transcription; the /b/ sounds unvoiced, the /r/ seems absent, and the diphthong does not sound fine.

Thanks. A Mediocre Lifetime Student (talk) 21:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Replacement of An Audio Clip

Hello, Mister/Miss; of the entry of the word "requisite" in the English language, please replace the lone audio clip that is ostensively attributed as (US) and which is immediately below the IPA transcription of the word's standard, General American pronunciation, because its pronunciation of the word's /z/—which is represented by the word's letter "s"—sounds definitely unvoiced, and that absolutely does not match to its IPA transcription, for the phoneme /z/ is voiced.

Thank you. A Mediocre Lifetime Student (talk) 08:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Copyright Question (CC BY-NC)

Hello. I was wondering if I could use entries from a dictionary that is licensed under CC BY-NC (Attribution-NonCommercial 1.0 Generic). If not, could I use it with permission from the owner of the dictionary? Also, how would I attribute it the the owners? Would leaving a link to the dictionary and the name of the organization along with a note on whether or not it was edited from the source in the discussion page be good? Thanks for any help in advance, Wikt-user123 (talk) 23:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

You cannot use such entries, at least not beyond how you would use entries of a dictionary that were "all rights reserved" (so, don't just copy, etc., but you can use it for reference when writing your own work, and ideally include a reference like you would for any other source). The main reason for the incompatibility is that our license allows for commercial reuse by end users (CC BY-SA), so we cannot use material that prohibits it. Of course, if they were to relicense it under CC BY or CC BY-SA, then we could use it with appropriate attribution. At least legally speaking it would be okay in that situation. There may be other considerations against doing so. 70.172.194.25 00:10, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

For how attribution could look, see Template:Webster 1913 which is included at the bottom of a lot of English-language entries. (Note that since Webster 1913 is public domain, legally speaking including this is not required in the same way it would be required for CC BY content. But it's good scholarship to go above the minimal legal requirements and provide attribution anyway, and it prevents accusations of copying from more recent versions that are protected. Plus it shows the content may be dated.) 70.172.194.25 00:15, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. So I could rewrite the definitions in my own words and post them here as long as I use a reference to the original content? If it is only one or two words could I just use synonyms?Wikt-user123 (talk) 00:34, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

If it's only one or two words it's probably below the threshold of originality for copyright anyway. But a collection of dozens or hundreds of one word entries does meet the threshold of originality, so copying en masse would not look good. Rewording (without changing meaning) would not hurt. Including a reference certainly wouldn't either. I feel like if you check both of those boxes it's unlikely anyone would complain. Also, you could cross-reference with other sources to see if they say other things, so it's not a straight copy job.

If there is not already a template for citing this particular source, btw, I would be happy to make one so you can include it more easily. 70.172.194.25 00:41, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

That would be really helpful. Would you need a link to the source? Wikt-user123 (talk) 01:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes. 70.172.194.25 01:08, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Here you go: https://www.mikmaqonline.org/ Thank you so much by the way. Wikt-user123 (talk) 01:09, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

You can type the following to add it as a reference:

===Further reading===

* {{R:mic:MO|galqwasiet}}

This produces:

Further reading

• “galqwasiet”, in Mi'gmaq/Mi'kmaq Online Talking Dictionary‎^[1], 1997–2024

If you don't specify the entry name (so you just type {{R:mic:MO}}), it will use whatever the page title is (but you should make sure the link works). 70.172.194.25 01:22, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. Wikt-user123 (talk) 01:31, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

List of synonyms

Hi, how can I get a list of English synonyms? — This unsigned comment was added by 31.14.87.23 (talk).

Synonyms of a given word are used for that entry, sometimes with {{syn}} and sometimes with its own header. You can also check the Thesaurus namespace, e.g. Thesaurus:dictionary. Learn more here: Wiktionary:Thesaurus. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I mean list of words and their synonyms at the same page. 31.14.87.23 07:17, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly what is at the thesaurus. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:34, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

See here for the index: Wiktionary:All Thesaurus pages. 70.172.194.25 07:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Which, to be clear, includes non-English terms. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh, good catch. I just noticed Category:English thesaurus entries exists but is quite small. There's no other obvious way to get a list of only English entries. Should someone go through and tag all the Thesaurus pages by language? 70.172.194.25 08:13, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we really should. E.g. (among a million others), pie (the English word for a dessert) and pie (the Spanish word for foot) would both be at Thesaurus:pie. These should be organized by language and this would solve the problem of this thread as well (e.g. Thesaurus:en:pie and Thesaurus:es:pie). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:19, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Something like this :

https://wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionario_de_synonimos_de_Interlingua 31.14.83.127 10:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

We luckily don't have that as it would entail an insane amount of redundancy and, frankly, a maintenance nightmare. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 10:12, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Bold N with dotted underline

Some of the edits in my contributions page have had an N with a dotted underline before the edit summary. What does this mean? –107.77.192.122 21:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

New page creation. A hint in general: Dotted underline means you can hover over it to get more information. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 21:16, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Appendix:LANG pronunciation

Are all pronunciation appendix pages supposed to have a column for English approximation of the phonemes? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 22:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Nothing at Wiktionary:Pronunciation (which is a draft policy anyway) requires it. It's definitely a good idea. Some have it (e.g. Appendix:German pronunciation) and some don't (Appendix:Spanish pronunciation). The examples could be tricky for vowels, since they will vary so much, but this is hardly an insuperable barrier and would be very helpful to readers who don't know IPA (who are the vast majority). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Consonants can be tricky too, and it will be a challenge to provide English approximations for the 48 click consonants of Juǀʼhoan.  --Lambiam 09:57, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I hate to ask, but...

What on earth is going on with this cursed userpage, and why is it being continually edited by new accounts? Theknightwho (talk) 11:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

It will take some time for you to be familiar with this legend. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 12:16, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a rabbithole I didn't think I'd discover here haha. Amazing. Theknightwho (talk) 22:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)