User talk:Vininn126/archive/2021

Wtf

Excuse me, what's that supposed to mean? I don't have to explain anything to you because I don't consider your opinion important. I create entries the way I'm used to and that I find aesthetically pleasing, and if you don't like it, all you can do about it is cry. Alternatively, you can go and report me to some overzealous admin, complaining that I was so mean to you. How sad :((((((( Care to at least leave your name at the end of your comment or is it beneath you? Shumkichi (talk) 12:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oh, isn't it obvious? The English way is sloppy and unaesthetic, that's it. Oh, and I'm the rude one here? Look at the tone of your comment, you treat me like some bitch who can only complain and doesn't have anything substantive to add as if my contribution to the Polish lemmas didn't matter. Yes, my comments on your sloppy edits were supposed to sound mean to teach you something, not my fault that you took it personally instead of paying attention to the way you edit entries. All you had to do was to ask me your question without that assumption at the end, that's what pissed me off the most. Shumkichi (talk) 12:53, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Do you hate me so much because I'm a black gay woman? Shumkichi (talk) 12:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
    • You homophobe, all you have to do is to look at the way I, BigDom, Hergilei, or KamiruPL (or any other user who is active) edit our entries (we all have different styles but they are all aesthetic in my opinion, and the other guys do their job really well, so kudos to them). Is it srsly so hard to click on the "EDIT" in a random recent entry and copy-paste it? Why are people so dependent on other people and not on their own intelligence these days? Shumkichi (talk) 13:07, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

This is gonna be cringey, but here we go

Hi. I just wanted to say sorry for how I treated you. I'm not an easygoing person and I can get really pissed off sometimes. Apparently, I got upset about something I shouldn't have. But the thing is that I misinterpreted your original message. Nevertheless, I shouldn't have been such a hothead. I feel really bad about the words I have written and I'm really sorry for them. Don't get me wrong, I still get annoyed when I see you make a very obvious mistake (like "=== Part of speech ===" or a wrong gender) xd But I can also see that you have learnt something and that you learn quickly, which is good. I appreciate your contribution to the Polish entries and I can see that you know your Polish, which surprises me. The only problem is that you still struggle with some technical aspects of adding entries but the more you create, the better and more professional your entries will be, or at least I hope so. I should have taken into account that you're new to Wiktionary and obviously less experienced. I'm going to take a break from creating entries anyway, so I'm glad that there is a person who's equally passionate about languages in general and willing to contribute (the Polish language has already surpassed Russian in being the most and best covered version here). So keep up the good work. Btw. the entries you've created made me realise how many BASIC words are still missing, and it's tragic. Just try to double check every entry you create, check on the Polish Wiktionary if a particular entry has an audio file there and copy-paste it, be careful about genders because they can be tricky, and I'd suggest that you copy-paste an actual entry, not a bare template, and with respect to the grammatical category of the word in question. Cheers, I guess. Shumkichi (talk) 20:27, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• On what counts as a transitive verb, I think we agree; it's just the verb phrases like "zrobić (kogoś) w balona" that I find difficult to categorise (is this "kogoś" a direct object? Technically speaking, yes, but it refers to "zrobić" itself in terms of morphology, but in terms of the whole phrase as a single entity with individual meaning, it does seem to refer to the whole thing semantically; so you see my problem: Polish doesn't have phrasal verbs like English but I guess you could treat such phrases as transitive verbs, albeit very awkward ones). As for any database, I don't really know, but pl.wiktionary is generally very messy, with multiple users adding different audio files in a random way, and each file also has different filename extention (sometimes it's .ogg, sometimes .wav or .mp3, it's really annoying, because you have to change it manually here). Shumkichi (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

labels and categories

Hi, just a heads-up that if you add a label using the lb template, you don't need to add the category at the bottom too (e.g. this edit). Like Shumkichi above, I also wanted to say thanks for your efforts but please do take a little more care sometimes. It's not a race and there's been a few occasions we've had to tidy up after you which, for me at least, is slowing down the rate of adding new entries myself. Cheers, BigDom 08:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

• :@BigDom Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. And good to know about not having to add it at the bottom. I saw it a few times and wasn't sure. I probably saw some older posts.

• No need to apologise. I really appreciate having another Polish editor around and I know you're still learning the ropes like we all had to once upon a time. There's nothing wrong with taking it a bit slower. Cheers, BigDom 08:23, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @BigDom the template worked like a charm! I used it on spowolnić‎ and it saved me a ton of time. Thanks a bunch, you're the best! Vininn126 (talk) 10:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

sestyna

I added a link to sestyna, Polish for sestina. --Apisite (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Apisite I will get to that soon, thanks. Vininn126 (talk) 07:35, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

gemininated???

Hi. In a recent edit you used the term "gemininated". Was this a spelling mistake? Indian subcontinent (talk) 12:14, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

@Indian subcontinent yes, my mistake. I updated it with the correct spelling. Vininn126 (talk) 12:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah, geminate, of course. I guess it's like Anna - I knew an Italian with that name who was always frustrated with people saying her name like in English, and not spending an extra half second on the /n/ sound. Indian subcontinent (talk) 21:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

-yzna

Hi. I suggest that you read this discussion: [1], before anyone will niggle about it. Shumkichi (talk) 15:04, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Hyphenation

I can see you've started adding hyphenation to Polish terms, I guess inspired by German or Hungarian lemmas. While it's good to do so, someone needs to create separate categories for terms with 1 syllable, 2 syllables, 3 syllables, etc., because as for now, even if you add hyphenation to an entry, it won't get categorised as N-syllable word because nobody has created the category for any hyphenation. Now, I'm not good at these technical categories, related to the language as a whole instead of individual words. Would you be able to do so? Also, we would have to add hyphenation to more than 50000 entries that lack it, lol. Shumkichi (talk) 22:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

• @Shumkichi You guessed it, Hungarian, been trying to learn. I can look into creating categories, and talking to people about that. And yeah, considering the fact that most haven't been added, it's something I have to chip away at. It's something that I'd like to do at least for now when I turn my attention to that later. At the moment I'm focusing on this rhyming thing (and we are trying to think of a way automatically add rhymes to the proper page, to make that process easier). Once that's done I'm probably going to look at hyphenation. Vininn126 (talk) 22:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @Shumkichi Actually so turns out it was an easy fix. Erutuon went ahead and did some tinkering in some code. The syllabification is done automatically with the IPA template, and WingerBot will create categories based on that. However for combinations like auto, au is treated as a diphthong, so for words like nauka, we have to respell them in the template, which we already have to do. As to filling the categories with words, it might take months because the system basically has a line, but it's automatically done. Alternatively, I think we can make the categories, as Erutuon did https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Polish_3-syllable_words here (linking doesn't work). Vininn126 (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
    • @Vininn126 I forgot that there are still some very old entries missing IPA templates, not to even mention that there are many more that lack Audio templates. I guess there's no other way but just go through all the entries and manually add both templates where missing. Shumkichi (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

dokopać (class IX) conjugation

Hi, just saw your message in the edit summary at dokopać. I don't know if the -ić template is the right place for these verbs but I don't mind having a go at creating a class IX template like I've done for the other classes. Cheers, BigDom 13:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• @BigDom Okeedokee. I might be wrong but I think the forms are the same, save the infinitive. If they are, it might be worth considering. Thanks Vininn126 (talk) 13:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Hmm, I think they're different enough to put separately. For example, the 3.s.fut is different (ends -ie/-je/-e rather than -i), also the past tense is -ał, -ała, instead of -ił, iła. The passive participle is also -any rather than -iony. Class IX also includes verbs like stawać/dawać which have the extra -wa- in the infintive but otherwise have the -ję -> -je -> -ją endings from this class. Shouldn't take me too long to knock something together. BigDom 13:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Argh, you're right. Ah well. Vininn126 (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Think that was simple enough - would you mind having a look at the examples here and see if it all looks right? @Shumkichi too if you're interested. BigDom 17:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
        • That is a thing of beauty, thank you much! Vininn126 (talk) 20:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
          • Nie ma problemu. They're ready to go now. BigDom 13:05, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
            • @BigDom I'll update some pages when I wrap up these rhymes. Vininn126 (talk) 13:07, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
              • Yeah, no worries I'm just going through some now and adding (reasonably common) missing ones where I find them. Good work on the rhymes, BTW. BigDom 13:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

pl-IPA

Just noticed the voicing is wrong on zewnętrzny and wewnętrzny - is this something that can be fixed in the module or will we need to just do it manually? Cheers, BigDom 15:41, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@BigDom It should be something we can fix in the module. I'll ask my friend again. Vininn126 (talk) 15:43, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

-licy

I was considering analysing it as "lico" + "-y" but a lot of adjectives in Polish poetry are based on this formula ("lico" is an archaic word that is known only from literature and proverbs, at least afaik) so I'm wondering if it can be considered an independent suffix. But maybe it's a little far-fetched. Shumkichi (talk) 09:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Honestly I experience the same problemy with a lot of other suffixes that are less morphological in nature, e.g. -nośny. I'm not sure there's really a consensus on these in the literature, and I tend to lean towards having them be built from pieces, rather than giving a whole new suffix, but I could honestly see it that way too. This is like the discussion with -letni, and there are a few others. Vininn126 (talk) 09:22, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

/v/ in multiword terms

Hi.

I'm not sure why but whenever I add a multiword entry that involves a word in a noninitial position that starts with /v/, it automatically changes to /f/; but when it is the first word in an entry that starts with /v/, the pronunciation is correct. I tried to add the pronunciation for this term - [CLICK] - manually but /v/ still changes to /f/ no matter what I do. One of your friends knows how code works here if I remember correctly, right? Maybe they could help? Shumkichi (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that too. We added backwards voicing, and rz and w were causing problems since they don't determine the voicing of the cluster, so there were a few kinks. I already sent the problem over to him. Vininn126 (talk) 14:42, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

A paper on the phonemicity of /ŋ/ in Polish

Hey, I just wanted to share an interesting article (in English) by a Polish phonologist who claims that /ŋ/ is a separate (but highly restricted) phoneme in Polish in certain environments: https://journals.pan.pl/Content/118300?format_id%3D1&usg=AOvVaw3C_cE_tVBtWmhxl9ab3D37 Most other phonologists seem to agree that the so-called nasal vowels have evolved to biphonemic clusters in every position (except for "ę" at the end of words which is completely denasalised): so Ṽ -> ṼN (or Ṽw̃ and Ṽj̃), and either /ŋ/ is a separate phoneme or there are two additional phonemes instead: /w̃/ and /j̃/, but they are never phonetically independent and always appear as the nasal part of biphonemic diphthongs.

I'm not sharing it with you just because I find it interesting. My point is that, perhaps, we should update the IPA template to better reflect the allophones of the underlying /ŋ/ (which is mostly correct now for the words spelt with "ę" and "ą"), but there are also problems with some allophones of /n/ (in other words, I'm saying that there's a phonotactical difference between the independent PHONEME /ŋ/, which appears in words that contain "ę" and "ą" as the second part of biphonemic oralo-nasal diphthongs, and the ALLOPHONE [ŋ], which is a positional allophone of /n/ before /k/ and /g/ in medial positions, and before /k/ in coda positions). Unfortunately, if you take a look at words like "bank", "marketing" etc., which all have a simple underlying /n/ and because of that are not spelt with "ą" or "ę", the IPA template realises them as /bank/ and /marketink/ even though they are phonetically [baŋk] and [marketiŋk]. It's annoying when I have to copy-paste the "ŋ" sign from Wikipedia or from English transcriptions to make the rhymes correct. Compare them with "pęk" or "sąd", which are correctly transcribed as /peŋk/ and /sont/, respectively. So you did a very good job with the instances of "ę" and "ą", but I think we should work on allophonic [ŋ] too to make our lives easier. Shumkichi (talk) 21:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey! This looks super interesting and it's something I've been pondering for a while. I was also just reading some Polish language papers on the retroflex series, so I'm in the phonetic mood. I'll have to read it a bit later as I've taken a trip to Wrocław for the week. Perhaps I'll be able to upload them to my tablet and read them on the way back. Vininn126 (talk) 21:11, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I'm jealous, Wrocław is definitely one of the prettiest Polish cities. Have a good time there. There's a reason why people call it WrocLOVE. Shumkichi (talk) 21:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Shumkichi Okay. I'm convinced. Considering that we already mark nasal vowels as assimilating with velar plosives, and upon hearing that people do in fact assimilate it in fast speech, I will update the module. I'll need some time to figure it out and there's probably gonna be bugs. Vininn126 (talk) 12:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

brakować

Is there a reason why you're using "raw table code" I guess you could call it, for conjugation tables in verb entries you made? There already are templates existing which seem to give much more comprehensive conjugation information for verbs. You can see skończyć for an example. I don't know any Polish so I have no clue about what various different conjugations exist, but I'm sure with your level of fluency you'll know all about them and you should be able to find the various templates if you look in the right category. 37.110.218.43 10:00, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Because those verbs don't use those forms and only use the third person. The form "mdlę" doesn't exist. Check their entries in WSJP for more. Vininn126 (talk) 10:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I see, fair enough...though honestly if there are no 3rd person only templates then someone should create them. Using a template instead of the raw code is probably better since it'd probably reduce the chance of errors. 37.110.218.43 10:35, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, I've been discussing it with one editor, and started a discussion now with the others. I just didn't want those forms there. Vininn126 (talk) 11:00, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's cool. I noticed your comment. Hopefully someone can make a suitable template. :) 37.110.218.43 11:04, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

ahistoryczność

You listed historyczność as a synonym, but surely you meant antonym right? 37.110.218.43 11:23, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Dang you're fast. Yep. Vininn126 (talk) 11:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

The module

I think it doesn't work for "szankier" because of the presence of /ŋ/. It works just fine for e.g. "lakier". Shumkichi (talk) 13:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Adminship

Hi there. You've been contributing prolifically and regularly and have a really good number of edits. You're experienced enough and I think would be a good candidate for adminship. What do you think? —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 15:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Sounds great! I'm in Vininn126 (talk) 15:58, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

And now you're an admin. Congratulations! Chuck Entz (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz Thanks! Glad to be here Vininn126 (talk) 20:41, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Rzeczpospolita

Hey, just wanted to let you know I removed your colloquial qualifier on Rzeczpospolita Polska (I also added the rzeczpospolita pronunciation to rzeczpospolita and Rzeczpospolita) as WSJP lists both pronunciations as correct. I also found a dictionary from 1937 (Słownik ortoepiczny. Jak mówić i pisać po polsku by Stanisław Szober) that claims the pronunciation with stress falling on the second last syllable is more common (it also says that for words like prezydent, p. 364), so perhaps we should put the following pronunciation first? Mazab IZW (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mazab IZW Sounds good. I'm okay with that if you want. We may want to add a qualifier to the audio recording saying it's the one pronunciation over the other. Vininn126 (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vininn126 Alright, referring to your edit summary - WSJP listing only Rzeczpospolita pronunciation seems to be an oversight. According to Słownik ortograficzny z wymową by PWN (Wydanie II, 2017), both pronunciations are considered correct (for Rzeczpospolita, Rzeczpospolita Polska and rzeczpospolita) (though it lists the -pospolita pronunciation first). If you don't mind, I will keep both the pronunciations, but list the -pospolita one first. Mazab IZW (talk) 21:07, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Solar System table

Thank you for all your help.

"can you also please stop using the swp template" I will stop using it - although visually it is more pleasant, without littering link to the main page on Wikipedia. Is swp outdated? Or should I stop also using the wp template? I saw also something like: "Further reading:" 2021 on the Polish Wikipedia.Wikipedia ^pl. I don't care where the link to Wikipedia is. So choose.

"can you please add the further reading and put all the categories into one argument? you don't need to use the topics template" What do you want as "Further reading"? Wikipedia? WSJP? PWN? OK. I will put all catrgoties into one.

The reason why I'm writing goes like that... Do you know what I need to do to change {{{Orcus}}} in https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:table:Solar_System/pl into proper link for Orkus? Looking at all these defective tables is annoying, so it should be changed. But I don't know why page for Ceres works and for Orcus doesn't. Thanks for your patience.

@‎Caslonc Hi! So for wikipedia, it's just we use wp instead. it would make the pages more homogenous. And what i mean by the categories versus topics - you can merge the topics into the c template :) You don't need to use two separate templates. so instead of c|pl|Celestial bodies, topics|pl|Planets of the Solar System|Roman deities, you can just do c|pl|Celestial bodies|Planets of the Solar System|Roman deities as one thing :) (surrounded by brackets ofc). And then, for further reading, we just link WSJP and PWN most of the time at the bottom.

As for the table - I've asked about it on the discord. I agree with you, it's not pleasant to look at those broken links. Thanks for being willing to learn :) Vininn126 (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

taca --> collection plate

Thank you for your help :) I've heard that it's called "offering plate". I've never heard of collection place so thank you for your correction. Though, it seems like there's such thing as offering plate :) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offering%20plate Tashi (talk) 12:43, 29 December 2021 (UTC)