User talk:ValtteriLahti12

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary!

Your Kamassian entries need to use a headword template at the very least: {{head|xas|noun}} not only automatically produces the headword, but also adds Category:Kamassian nouns and Category:Kamassian nouns. See WT:EL for more details. As it is now, someone might decide to delete them as "no usable content given". Also, there may be a question about what script is used. Our data modules have it configured for only Cyrillic, but I don't know how that was arrived at. I'll ping @Atitarev who would know more than I do. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: I know nothing about the language and whether it should be written in the Latin or Cyrillic script but as you said, the entries need to be formatted properly. I have made changes I thought necessary to kuguj. Please see this entry as an example of how to make (more) correct entries.

If the Latin script is valid, some module changes will be required, so it doesn't give "transliteration needed" error. It can be requested as WT:GP. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Any cyrillic scripts for Kamassian did not exists and there have been some user made attempts to use them, i don’t know if they can be used, the books used an UPA script. Inside Kamassian there is also debate about which cyrillic alphabet to use because there are about 3. ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 07:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Also i will now try to format them correctly :) --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 19:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC) If we use cyrillic then the question comes, which one of them?, also i was using the same alphabet as the book i cited for the words. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 19:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Tropylium: if you have time, would you care to weigh in? I personally know next to nothing about Kamassian (as seems to be the case with Chuck and Anatoli). Thanks. Also, Valtteri, could you clean up the entries you've created so far (especially with regards to the L2 order and reference placement/usage)? That'd be very kind of you. Thadh (talk) 23:45, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Here is some info on the alphabets, Kamassian did not have its own alphabet ever before it died but usually an UPA script was used (Very similar to the latin alphabet), and i used the same one as the source i was using had. But some people have made their own dictionaries with own alphabets. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 05:19, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Etymologies

Please do not add etymologies from fringe sources. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 16:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

i wasn't fully sure if it was fringe or not, i started to doubt it though after i had already made the edits --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2021 (UTC) (As proof you can see the history of this page)

Mator

Hey, two notes:

First of all, it might be useful to create a reference template (see {{cite-book}}) rather than to use the plain link.

Second, which is more important, at Wiktionary we lemmatise words in their native spelling and script, so that one who would come in contact with a text in the language may be able to use this dictionary. While I understand that you might think that using UPA is useful, I strongly doubt that at any time in its history Mator was written in the manner you portray. The source you use actually does give the source script at times (for example with нундухо (“horse”) at page 179). I strongly advise you to follow these spellings rather than any Latin-based writing; I also suggest this in regard to Kamassian, some occurences of which are given in this same source. Thanks in advance and good luck! Thadh (talk) 23:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

There are no official scripts for either Mator or Kamassian and the UPA was used to write both languages down, because they never developed alphabets and all natives are dead. Kamasins and mators did not write much themselfs and outside linguists documented them using the UPA. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 10:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

And yet I don't think encoding these with UPA or even IPA for that matter is the way forward. I understand that codifying languages that are barely written down is difficult, and you wouldn't be the only one struggling with this ([1], [2]). Now, you're saying that both Kamasins and Mators did have native writings, and although it may not be official or standardised, that isn't a problem: loads of languages aren't standardised or officialy recognised, but we can still lemmatise them without resorting to phonetic alphabets. Thadh (talk) 12:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

if i use a cyrillic, which one of the 3 availeable would i use?? --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 12:19, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

As long as you add entries as they are or could be attestable, it doesn't really matter: you can always add any other attested spelling under "alternative forms". You are undoubtedly much more qualified than I am to make the decision which of the cyrillic scripts you want to set the main entry under, but you should be consistent; if it helps, just create a Wiktionary:About Kamassian or Wiktionary:About Mator page and explain there, which orthography other editors ought to follow (compare such pages as Wiktionary:About Proto-Uralic or Wiktionary:About Karelian, Wiktionary:About Ingrian) for consistency. I hope this answers your question and best of luck! Thadh (talk) 13:36, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Heyo, I saw you have some difficulties so I did some researching and I believe that - for Kamassian - the orthography as given by Matveev (1963) may be the closest to a natively written one as possible (if one existed at all). This includes the letters ʼ (ʔ), һ (h/ʰ), uses double letters for geminates. I assume you speak Russian, so I'll leave further reading and the decision whether to use it to you. By the way, a word of advice: once you decide which orthography to use for the languages, make sure to note that under the About: page, so other editors do that as well :) Thadh (talk) 09:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)