User talk:Johnkn63

Hi there. Read the following welcome links - they will show you how to format entries. Basically, we need a ==language== entry, followed by a ===part of speech=== entry, a headword, then either a definition or an English translation. If in doubt, have a look at how all the other words here are formatted. SemperBlotto 14:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note ==Zhuang== is a language spoken by over 10 million people, so the first header was correct. I have now put a part of speech header. Yes I did look at a number of other entries to see what people have done it was the lack of common features apart from the language that left me somewhat confused.Johnkn63 14:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary!

formatting

It looks like you haven't read those links yet. e.g. ===Examples=== and ===Character Form=== are not acceptable section names. Also, your translation line does not start with a "#". SemperBlotto 14:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The formatting you have added looks good. As far as I am aware "vunz" is the first Zhuang word to have it's own page.

BTW what does "infl" stand for? Johnkn63 15:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

"infl" stands for inflect, as the template is used on the inflection line (the line immediately after the POS). I've deleted the comments I accidentally placed on your userpage, as you seem to have gotten them (or they're now unnecessary). Sorry about that. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

All comments are gratefully received, I am new to Wiktionary, and certainly need to learn from others.Johnkn63 00:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Zhuang

Hi, I didn't know Zhuang was written using Chinese characters. What sources do you use to get the Zhuang pronunciations? 24.29.228.33 01:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The Zhuang spellings are the standard Zhuang spellings, and these can be found in numerous sources, and the few words added todate appear in even the most elementary text books. Pronunciation would rather depend upon accent, though there is of course a standard pronunciation. The Zhuang-Chinese-English Dictionary published first published in 2005 is certinaly the best source for people who do not read Chinese. Regarding Zhuang written using "Chinese" characters, the Sawndip Sawdenj is the only dictionary published in modern times. Johnkn63 11:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

There are of course some connections between Chu-nom, Vietnamese written with Chinese charcters and the Zhuang characters, though by enlarge the same charcter will have different meangs in Vietnamese and Zhuang. Giving the meaning in English of characters like 佲 when used for Vetnamese would mae things clearer, for those of us who do not read Vietnamese. Johnkn63 11:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

There are of course some connections between Chu-nom, Vietnamese written with Chinese charcters and the Zhuang characters, though by enlarge the same charcter will have different meangs in Vietnamese and Zhuang. Giving the meaning in English of characters like 佲 when used for Vetnamese would mae things clearer, for those of us who do not read Vietnamese. Johnkn63 12:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

You've asked me about sevel different things, and I haven't replied ... I am trying to get to them ... Robert Ullmann 11:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Robert,

no hurry, I quite busy at the moment, the matters mentioned are ones which I have a long term interest in. Some questions are easy to ask than to answer.Johnkn63 12:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Zhuang tones

You clearly know more about Zhuang than the rest of us, so I wanted to ask you some things.

1. Is there a way to definitely determine if a loanword is from Mandarin and not some other Chinese dialect (phonological correspondences, tone correspondences, etc.)

1. Is the Latin script defective in any way? (Is code to generate IPA from the Latin alphabet foolproof?) I think this resource mentions something about certain tones in Mandarin loanwords not being written down?

Thank you, —suzukaze (t・c) 23:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: There are many whose Zhuang is better than mine, but happy to answer your questions

1. The quick answer is that it is usually possible to tell if it something written in Standard Zhuang is a loanword from Mandarin than another Chinese dialect, one does however need quite a lot of background. Whilst some words one can tell by tone, but for some second tone Zhuang words and all third tone Zhuang words one must consider the pronunciation. Understanding how tones are written for such loanwords is of course one thing one needs to know.

1. Southwestern Mandarin loanwords are written using a set of rules somewhat different to other Zhuang words, the explanation given in the link really only makes sense once one understands the system. The tones are based on Guilin Southern Mardarin, or Guiliuhua, which only has four tones. The first tone of Guiliuhua is 33 the same pitch as sixth tone in standard Zhuang hence marked by ~h. The second tone of Guiliuhua is 21 close to 31 the pitch of second tone in standard Zhuang hence marked by ~z. The third tone of Guiliuhua is 55 the same pitch as third tone in standard Zhuang hence marked by ~z. The fourth tone of Guiliuhua is 35 the same pitch as fifth tone in standard Zhuang which is ~q, however fourth tones are marked as if Zhuang first tones which have pitch 24 but no tone letter, hence the comment the Giuliuhua fourth tones are not marked. Hopefully this answers part of your question. As for code to convert to IPA the question here is what is the IPA for. Johnkn63 (talk) 09:56, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, does that mean in SW Mandarin loanwords, syllables without a tone letter are actually pronounced with a fifth tone rather than a first tone? Also, @Suzukaze-c it seems like it'd be useful to include Guilin/Liuzhou dialect in {{zh-pron}}. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:01, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

The wording of the standard is clear on how to write but is not as clear on how one would read this. My understanding of it would be these are also read as first tones. There are essentially two ways to read Zhuang, one to read phonetically and the other to read the way Zhuang is spoken in a particular location. In the former the modern loans are read according to standard Zhuang pronnunciation, in the latter one would expect some changes in pronunciation from Chinese when used in Zhuang. Of course, when doing the latter one must determine is the word is a modern loan or not, for which context can help. The former is used by newsreaders.Johnkn63 (talk) 08:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Johnkn63: Thank you for the answer! Even if a language has regular spelling rules, IPA is helpful for people not familiar with the spelling rules (and where else in the world are there tone letters?). I asked because I wrote the code for the {{za-pron}} template using quite literally only ~3 internet sources and I don't know Zhuang. (If you notice anything wrong in the Pronunciation section of a Zhuang entry, please do not hesitate to point it out...)

@Justinrleung: Theoretically it would be useful to include information on all dialects ;p Well, if the information is out there, why not? —suzukaze (t・c) 06:03, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: and @Suzukaze-c: Quite a lot of information around, the question is how and where to proceess it. Whilst ISO 636-1 has Zhuang as za, IS0 636-3 has zha as the metalanguage, which is broken down into 16 languages, so some sort of template for that may help. Tone class is in general more useful that pitch, as even within these smaller languages that are changes of pitch. Interestingly since the modern loans do not fit the tone class system these can often be the hardest for other Zhuang speakers to understand.Johnkn63 (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

It would not surprise me if there is more information around, but I'm not quite sure where they are online (well, one and a half-years later, I now have better access to physical books, and indeed found information on loans from Mandarin today)

The entry for raemx currently has IPA for a number of dialects alongside Standard Zhuang (as the result of this discussion). —suzukaze (t・c) 23:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: and @Suzukaze-c: Yes something a bit like this for raemx. Some link on mention of the IS0 636-3 codes, might help claritfy. Surprized that Yongnan Zhuang and Zuojiang Zhuang are /ham⁴/ Chinese sources seem all to have /nam⁴/, I don't have a copy of 'Comparative Kadai: The Tai Branch'. Zhuang also has variant spellings to reflect differeence in pronunciation, so Youjiang Zhuang /lam⁴/ is written 'laemx', not quite sure how to best to relect that. As to tones, even within a language there are differences in pitch.Johnkn63 (talk) 06:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)