User talk:Dan Pelleg
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With alt=.—msh210℠ (talk) 20:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- ok, and how can the form without nikud be seen? Dan Pelleg 20:37, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- It can't then. (The link is to it, though.) Why would it need to be?—msh210℠ (talk) 17:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Without nikud is the form almost always used. The complete nikud of a word is used for poetry and some other contexts, the particular nikud sign representing any vowel is mostly a matter of standard language (e.g. הַאֲלָהָה is correct whereas הָאָלָהָה or any other nikud denoting /haʔalaˈha/ is wrong) and sometimes even disambiguating, e.g. חָלָב = "milk" (noun) – חָלַב = "he milked". So both are relevant. Dan Pelleg 22:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- But the form without nikud is easily discernable from the vowelized form at a glance. There's really no reason to display it. (The exception is a word like (deprecated template usage) Lua error in Module:links/templates at line 56: Parameter 4 is not used by this template., which spelling only exists unvowelized: the vowelized form is (deprecated template usage) בִּשֵּׁל, with no (deprecated template usage) י (yod). If you wanted to link to בישל or discuss it, then you might want to display just בישל and not בִּשֵּׁל, or both. But for a word like הַאֲלָהָה, there's really no reason I can think of to display the unvowelized form.) Plus, displaying vowels adds useful info, of course, so it's worth vowelizing rather than displaying only the unvowelized form.—msh210℠ (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- True, for האלהה or the like there's no need to add the form without nikud, but for words whose two ways of spelling differ, both should be given, and also for words whose form without nikud is the same as with it, but which could be misspelled, e.g. you'd want to list both אִשֵּׁר and אישר, but also both אִשְׁרֵר and אשרר, to inform that אישרר is wrong (or at least non standard). Dan Pelleg 18:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. That last point makes a lot of sense IMO for inflection lines, though not for translation tables (or, say, etymology sections of other entries), where only minimal information is given and we don't IMO need to specify the unvowelized form just to make sure people know it's not spelled אישרר. But for inflection lines, as I said, including אשרר alongside אִשְׁרֵר makes a good deal of sense. It can be specified by use of dwv= instead of wv= in some of the inflection-line templates. (Maybe all of them by now.) It doesn't seem to be the way we do things, though, so you might want to seek broader input at [[Wiktionary talk:About Hebrew]] (also re the inclusion of אשרר in translation tables, which we seem to disagree on (?)).—msh210℠ (talk) 19:13, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, I agree, having the information somewhere in the word's entry itself is enough. I'll bring it up in the about Hebrew talk sometime. Thanx Dan Pelleg 13:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. That last point makes a lot of sense IMO for inflection lines, though not for translation tables (or, say, etymology sections of other entries), where only minimal information is given and we don't IMO need to specify the unvowelized form just to make sure people know it's not spelled אישרר. But for inflection lines, as I said, including אשרר alongside אִשְׁרֵר makes a good deal of sense. It can be specified by use of dwv= instead of wv= in some of the inflection-line templates. (Maybe all of them by now.) It doesn't seem to be the way we do things, though, so you might want to seek broader input at [[Wiktionary talk:About Hebrew]] (also re the inclusion of אשרר in translation tables, which we seem to disagree on (?)).—msh210℠ (talk) 19:13, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- True, for האלהה or the like there's no need to add the form without nikud, but for words whose two ways of spelling differ, both should be given, and also for words whose form without nikud is the same as with it, but which could be misspelled, e.g. you'd want to list both אִשֵּׁר and אישר, but also both אִשְׁרֵר and אשרר, to inform that אישרר is wrong (or at least non standard). Dan Pelleg 18:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- But the form without nikud is easily discernable from the vowelized form at a glance. There's really no reason to display it. (The exception is a word like (deprecated template usage) Lua error in Module:links/templates at line 56: Parameter 4 is not used by this template., which spelling only exists unvowelized: the vowelized form is (deprecated template usage) בִּשֵּׁל, with no (deprecated template usage) י (yod). If you wanted to link to בישל or discuss it, then you might want to display just בישל and not בִּשֵּׁל, or both. But for a word like הַאֲלָהָה, there's really no reason I can think of to display the unvowelized form.) Plus, displaying vowels adds useful info, of course, so it's worth vowelizing rather than displaying only the unvowelized form.—msh210℠ (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Without nikud is the form almost always used. The complete nikud of a word is used for poetry and some other contexts, the particular nikud sign representing any vowel is mostly a matter of standard language (e.g. הַאֲלָהָה is correct whereas הָאָלָהָה or any other nikud denoting /haʔalaˈha/ is wrong) and sometimes even disambiguating, e.g. חָלָב = "milk" (noun) – חָלַב = "he milked". So both are relevant. Dan Pelleg 22:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- It can't then. (The link is to it, though.) Why would it need to be?—msh210℠ (talk) 17:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)