User talk:BirdHopper

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Equinox ◑ 16:31, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome, and I'll add a BabelBox right away BirdHopper (talk) 16:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

If you want, we've got a userbox for self-rating one's IPA skills too (see e.g. my user page). I used to do some audio pronunciations, but my computer's audio recording is messed up these days (I don't know why) and, as you indicate, the workflow can be very tedious. You might be interested in adding this to your common.js script: importScript('User:Yair rand/AddAudio.js');. It allows you to record pronunciations directly into the browser by hitting a Record button in entries, though of course you won't get a chance to pre-process them to remove background noise. Equinox ◑ 15:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Cool, I will take a look at the IPA userbox. I'll have to enter "noob" as the rating. ;) I'm looking at other options for recording audio. For now, I'll stick with Audacity. I don't mind the tedious workflow too much. I was hoping there would be a way to make a custom plugin, but that might be over my head. EDIT: turns out there is a way! I'll do that this weekend, hopefully. Thanks for the info! BirdHopper (talk) 16:10, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Bullet point at guttural

Hi BirdHopper; before I begin, I’d like to make a request: unless you have information that you wish to remain private, post a message on my talk page rather than sending an email. This allows other users to participate in the discussion (which is important, since I might say something wrong), and prevents me from missing your email.

As far as I know, there is no policy encouraging or banning subitems in pronunciation. It has been in occasional use for as long as I remember, so it counts as (semi-)common practice. I usually use subitemising for subdialects (for example, I’ll add a standard Brazilian pronunciation with * and transcriptions of regional pronunciations with **); I find that it keeps the data well organised, but you don’t need to use it if you don’t want to. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 17:31, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello Ungoliant. Makes sense. I may organize entries that way as well in the future. Also, I'll be sure to leave messages on your talk page. Thanks for your input! BirdHopper (talk) 17:43, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Hey BirdHopper, I’m just dropping by to say thanks for what you’ve been doing. I know the process of creating and adding audio pronunciations to Wiktionary is a PITA. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 21:28, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

My pleasure! Once I get into the zone, it's actually fun for me. I'm slowly plugging through alphabetically now, so maybe by Christmas I'll be done! BirdHopper (talk) 21:38, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Help with IPA

In response to your e-mail: I will help you if I can, but my IPA-2 level doesn't suggest much expertise. It's hard for me to do any IPA work outside of BrE. You might be better off contacting someone in Category:User_IPA-4, or asking on the discussion pages. Equinox ◑ 22:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do that. I didn't know about Category:User_IPA-4 before, so that's helpful. Thanks! BirdHopper (talk) 23:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Category skill levels go up to 5, but nobody has been bold enough to rank themselves IPA-5! Ha. Equinox ◑ 23:30, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Audio

Hi BirdHopper. I'm also interested in adding good quality audio with Audacity, although not in English. Reading your workflow, I was wondering about step 6: Remove any excess noise from the beginning and end, and fade it in and out. Wouldn't it be easier just adding silence to both places? Also, there is a batch upload tool to Commons, in case you are interested: VicuñaUploader. --Panda10 (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi Panda10. Glad to hear you're interested in adding some audio! Regarding step 6, I should clarify. When I use Sound Finder as part of the command chain to isolate the words (step 2.4), I have it set so that it leaves some mostly-silent padding on either end (the "silence" left over from noise reduction). I then select each portion of "silence" and use Generate > Silence to replace it with true silence. Then, to have a nice smooth transition from silence to audio, I fade in and out. This is mostly personal preference. I like the sound better when it's very slightly faded in and out. I hope this makes a little more sense. :) I'll update my User page a little later.

Regarding VicuñaUploader, I use Linux and have some issues running it. I can't remember exactly what happened, but I know it was unusable for me. I'll have to try again and see if I can work around the issue. It's written in Java, so it should work on Linux just fine... Some day, I hope to batch upload revised versions of my audio. Since my methods have changed over time, so has the audio quality (not to mention my voice quality from time to time). I'd like them all to be consistent. Anyway, thanks for chiming in! BirdHopper (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. I'm not sure if you can batch upload revised versions. VicuñaUploader will not upload a file if there is an identical file name. --Panda10 (talk) 17:09, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Commons

Hi BirdHopper, I've noticed that the files you've uploaded to Commons do not have a "File usage on other wikis" section even though the audio files were added to Wiktionary entries. Normally, this Commons section appears automatically, immediately after adding the {audio} template to a Wiktionary entry. Compare these two: table and accomplice. I'm really not sure if the audio file name causes it, capital E in Commons vs. small e in Wiktionary, but I wanted to mention it. Maybe others have more insight. --Panda10 (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

@Panda10 Wow, you're absolutely right. I capitalized the E and now it shows up on the "File usage on other wikis" section. Looks like I've got some work to do LOL. Thanks for pointing that out to me. :)

You're welcome. BTW, excellent work on the audio. (Oh, and {{ping}} sends notifications only if you sign your comment.) --Panda10 (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

@Panda10 Thanks! Sorry about not signing my last comment. I completely forgot. I'm usually so good about remembering that... This one will ping you, hopefully! BirdHopper (talk) 19:38, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. :) --Panda10 (talk) 20:18, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Bluntness narrow transcription

@2WR1 The first question I have is about how to most accurately transcribe bluntness. The t is mostly inaudible in regular US/GenAm speech. I've considered the following: [ˈblʌnʔtnɪs] (glottal reinforcement), [ˈblʌnt̚nɪs], (no audible release), and [ˈblʌntⁿnɪs] (nasal release). Of the three, I think the nasal release makes the most sense since the t comes before an n, at least according to Nasal_release. It's hard for me to understand the difference between these three. When I try to pronounce them, they all sound and feel the same. Which would you use in this case? (BTW, I had to copy t̚ from Wikipedia. That stop symbol isn't in the list below the editor...) Thanks in advance for any input! BirdHopper (talk) 19:59, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

I would first of all represent this standardly as /ˈblʌnt.nɪs/ or /ˈblʌnt.nəs/ (the period marking syllables is optional but I think it adds to easy readability and prevents confusion, so I always use it). Then you can use [ and ] to mark a more specific or phonetically detailed pronunciation (maybe as opposed to a more common emphasized pronunciation which might be shown in the /'s, or maybe for a specific accent). So then I would put for the US pronunciation [ˈblʌnʔ.nɪs] because to the best of my knowledge that's how it is usually pronounced in General American, with the /t/ becoming a glottal stop. 2WR1 (talk) 20:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Ya, that symbol is a not-too-common diacritic mark in the IPA and I think because it combines with the character instead of being a sort of small superscript, it couldn't easily be included. 2WR1 (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. It does make sense to replace the /t/ entirely with a glottal stop. I'll have to study the other types of stop a little more to know when to use each, although I would probably rarely use them on Wiktionary. I agree about using syllable breaks for readability, too. I've done that with a few words, but hesitated on others because I'm still learning where syllable breaks should go (seems like it should be common sense, but there are some edge cases that aren't too clear). Thanks again! I'll be back sometime with another question or two. :-) BirdHopper (talk) 22:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Syllabification

@2WR1 Hello again! Do you happen to know much about syllabification? When I add syllable breaks to words, sometimes I'm not sure where to put the breaks. Most of the time, I get along fine using the "maximal onsets principle" as described in w:English_phonology#Syllable_structure. However, when dealing with /ɪ/ in particular, I'm not always sure what to do. For example, the word amoxicillin can be transcribed as /əˌmɑksɪˈsɪlɪn/. One way to break it up is /əˌmɑk.sɪˈsɪ.lɪn/.

The Wikipedia page I linked to states the following: "If assigning a consonant or consonants to the following syllable would result in the preceding syllable ending in an unreduced short vowel, this is avoided." I believe that /ɪ/ is an unreduced short vowel, which means that /əˌmɑk.sɪˈsɪ.lɪn/ is incorrect since the third and fourth syllables end with /ɪ/. It should be /əˌmɑk.sɪsˈɪl.ɪn/. But now, the primary stress seems out of place.

In short, how do I deal with syllables possibly ending in /ɪ/? I could just reduce it to /ə/ in some cases. Or /ɪ/ might be considered reduced already. Sorry for such a long question. There is probably no "right" answer, but I'm always happy to get other viewpoints. If you don't know, that's fine, too! Thanks! BirdHopper (talk) 16:03, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@BirdHopper I totally know what you mean. Sometimes there's unstressed /ɪ/'s that can be reduced to a schwa and pronounced either way. Sometimes it's hard to identify which of these it is, but it's best to maybe check a dictionary source and see what the 'standard' transcription is, if you're unsure. Sometimes there's words that I might usually pronounce with a schwa and for which the standard transcription would be /ɪ/ like /ˈtʃɪ.kɪn/-/ˈtʃɪ.kən/. When transcribing it's best to put the least reduced form, so if you think to yourself, if I were emphasizing this would I say /ɪ/? Because there's plenty of words where you would definitely describe a certain short vowel but you know in regular rapid speech you'd reduce it to a schwa.

In short, it's not entirely simple, but if you're trying to represent a standard transcription it's best to make it as un-unstressed as makes sense. Though sometimes it's truly a case of multiple pronunciations. I personally would trancribe 'amoxicillin' as /əˌmɑk.sɪˈsɪ.lɪn/, /əˌmɑk.səˈsɪ.lɪn/. But the final /ɪ/ could be reduced to a schwa too in actual speech, but I want to make it clear that that is the true unreduced vowel sound in the word, the vowel I would give it if emphasizing the word.

I think this is more of a question of vowel reduction than syllabification, right?

2WR1 (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@2WR1 It's a question of both vowel reduction and syllabification, I think. I'll definitely remember to use the least reduced form of vowels, and I'll add a separate transcription with reduction(s) if I think it's necessary. With amoxicillin, it makes sense to do both, as you did. Regarding syllabification, my question, worded just a little differently, is: Is it acceptable to end a syllable with /ɪ/? Using your chicken example, one could write either /ˈtʃɪ.kɪn/ or /ˈtʃɪk.ɪn/, but the first doesn't conform to the rule I read on Wikipedia about syllables ending in unreduced short vowels. Cambridge Dictionary uses /ˈtʃɪk.ən/. Either way seems fine, really.

Maybe it's just a matter of opinion. If I follow the rules exactly, then amoxicillin becomes /əˌmɑk.sɪsˈɪl.ɪn/, which just doesn't feel right (unless I misinterpreted the rules). Your version seems better and more closely matches how I would say the word and how I would put stress on the fourth syllable. In any case, as stated on w:English_phonology#Syllable_structure, "Division into syllables is a difficult area, and different theories have been proposed." Meaning, there is probably no right answer here! :-)

Thanks for another great explanation. Very very helpful. I'm learning a lot! BirdHopper (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@BirdHopper Oh, I would always always have the consonant at the beginning of the second syllable. I think that rule is a little complicatedly worded and you got a bit confused. You shouldn't have a syllable that ends with a consonant followed by one that begins with a vowel, unless English's phonotactics specifically forbid it, like /ŋ/, or it's a break between two distinct morphemes that make be separated by a glottal stop, like a compound, like anteater, it's not 'an-teater', its 'ant-(ʔ)eater' (though don't include the glottal stop in transcriptions, it's a bit redundant and basically implied).

Does that help? 2WR1 (talk) 00:38, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

@2WR1 Yes, that clears it up a lot! This is all very interesting to me. When I go back to finish college, I know what elective courses I'll take. Thanks again! BirdHopper (talk) 01:08, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

@BirdHopper Haha, sure, any time! Ya, phonology is a lot of fun, and I'm a big IPA fan! 2WR1 (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

r vs. ɹ

Should we not delete Rhymes:English/ɔːrɪdʒ, given the presence of Rhymes:English/ɔːɹɪdʒ? The Wiktionary convention seems to be ɹ. (Trips me up sometimes because it's not the way I was taught.) Equinox ◑ 18:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@Equinox I created both pages, since I messed up on the first one. I believe the one that has to be deleted is actually Rhymes:English/ɔːɹɪdʒ since the rhymes list at Rhymes:English/ɔːɹ... links to Rhymes:English/ɔːrɪdʒ. All the rhymes in that list use /r/ for some reason. Totally confusing to me. I have no idea why this is. The convention is /ɹ/ for US IPA transcriptions because /r/ refers to a trilled r sound, often used in Spanish. Let me double check which page to delete and I'll get back to you. It may be a few hours, though. BirdHopper (talk) 19:59, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Just put {{delete|explanation of reason goes here}} on the bad one and someone'll zap it. Equinox ◑ 20:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh, cool. I'll do that. Thanks! BirdHopper (talk) 20:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I ended up redirecting Rhymes:English/ɔːrɪdʒ to Rhymes:English/ɔːɹɪdʒ as is the case with the other rhymes. BirdHopper (talk) 03:46, 22 July 2017 (UTC)