User talk:AryamanA/2019

Wiktionary page: ਭਰਾ (brother)

Hi Aryaman, I came across the Wiktionary page for the Punjabi word ਭਰਾ, and there are several errors with the declension. I'm not too familiar with how to use Wiktionary, the editing mechanism appears to be different than for Wikipedia articles and seems to be done by bots/algorithm or smth. I was wondering if you could fix it:

direct singular: ਭਰਾ (prā̀) direct plural: ਭਰਾਵਾਂ (prā̀vā̃)
oblique singular: ਭਰਾ (prā̀) oblique plural: ਭਰਾਵਾਂ (prā̀vā̃)
vocative singular: ਭਰਾਵਾ (prā̀vā) vocative plural: ਭਰਾਵੋ (prā̀vo)

Also, marking bhau as dialectal would serve to differentiate it with ਭਰਾ, which is the standard/more common word. Just a suggestion, thanks. Sapedder (talk) 05:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sapedder: Thanks for the tip, fixed now! If you ever find errors or need help with edits feel free to contact me. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 02:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Bhagavad Gita

Would you be able to help proofread a Sanskrit text at en:Wikisource? We are preparing a 1922 text that has both Sanskrit and English parallel text, and need someone who can read and correct the Sanskrit passages to match the publication.

One the project is completed, it would be possible to then cite Sanskrit words from the publication and even link to the source text from Wiktionary entries.

If you can help, please ping me, or reply on my talk page at Wikisource, and I can give you more details. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

सूनू

Hi, are you certain about the etymology of Hindi सूनू (sūnū), which you have stated as coming from Sanskrit स्नुषा (snuṣā)? I am sceptical of this. It is highly likely that this formal Hindi word is instead a learned borrowing from Sanskrit सूनू (sūnū́, “daughter”) (entry not yet created), which is but the feminine of सूनु (sūnú, “son, child, offspring”). And, as far as I know, सूनु has two feminine forms, the homonym सूनु (which is mentioned here), and सूनू . So you may make the needful changes, if need be. Thanks, — Lbdñk^{(⏳)★(🙊🙉🙈)} 19:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: You're obviously right, I'm fixing it. Some of my earlier edits, before I had any real knowledge of how to judge etymology, are pretty wrong. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Declension of बहू

Hi AryamanA! I think there is something wrong with the declension of बहू. It should be : Template:hi-decl-noun --Yun (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Divehi language

Hi. Divehi is known to have descended from Helu Prakrit, but in Wiktionary its early form is taken to be Maharashtri Prakrit. So, what do you think hereof? Thanks! —Lbdñk (talk) 20:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: Definitely think we should list it as a descendant of Helu, since Sinhala is listed like that as well. I will go ahead and change it. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 21:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Overriding Skt. adjective templates?

Hello - I added inflection templates to अल्प, but am not sure how to add the irregular masc. nom. pl. in -e. Do you know how to override the adjective templates? Hölderlin2019 (talk) 21:52, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Edit Filter Fail

Sorry about the edit filter. I accidentally put the negation operator in the wrong place and disallowed everything. I fixed it immediately, but there were half a dozen edits that got hit- including some of yours. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:55, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: No harm done! By any chance are you on the Discord? Just moments ago I asked about the filter there. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 02:58, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No. I just figured that I needed to let those affected know immediately so they would know it was safe to repeat the disallowed edits. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Urdu transliteration

Hi, I think that a Hindustani word should have the selfsame transliteration in both Devanagari and Perso-Arabic, but here in many entries I have seen the Urdu transliterations bearing a more Persianized form, eg. زعفران has be transliterated as "za'farān", when it should have been "zāfrān" as in Hindi. Or is it that the transliteration follows Classical Persian in literary Urdu, but actual Hindustani in colloquial Urdu? —Lbdñk (talk) 18:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: I think we should make the transliteration as close to pronunciation as we can, for Urdu. I really doubt that if any Urdu speaker were to say the word, the a' in "za'farān" would come out with a schwa followed by a glottal stop, and not actually "ā". So yes, "zāfrān" is to be preferred in this situation, and the actual pronunciation is prioritized. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 20:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps the silent ع should be marked somehow. @AryamanA, are you sure about the pronunciation? On the other hand, we don't transliterate different letters with identical pronunciation with different letters, like in Persian. ع is usually marked with ', not sure if it's ever completely silent in Persian. In any case, some slight deviations from Hindi transliterations should be welcome as educational, since this will highlight differences in spellings. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

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Transliterating Classical Persian

Hi! I see that I have transliterated Classical Persian words amiss. I had been following the transliteration used by Chatterji, and it seems dated. Would you apprise me of Wiktionary's standard, and if not applicable, the standard that you deem right, by way of a list, or the like? Thanks. —Lbdñk (talk) 12:47, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: I use the system employed by Steingass's dictionary, which I believe is the exact same as the Wiktionary system. Of course, I have no deep knowledge of Persian (let alone Classical Persian) myself. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 20:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@AryamanA: I have seen that dictionary makes no mentioning of Classical or Early Modern Persian, it says only "Persian". Furthermore, Wiktionary provides transliteration only for Modern Iranian Persian, and not Classical Persian. —Lbdñk (talk) 20:21, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: From my knowledge of Persian, it is definitely not representative of Iranian Persian. Beyond that, I can't really say... —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 20:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk Wiktionary’s system, propagated by some people who know the language from living in Iran and codified by them in WT:FA TR, is exactly the opposite of the Steingass one. The Classical Persian transcription makes more sense for virtual all loanwords descended from Persian – e.g. Ottoman Turkish فشك‎ (fişek), فشنك‎ (fişenk) is regularly from Classical Persian fišang and not fešang as it is transcribed now – and it also represents the current Persian as used in Afghanistan, succeding the Mughal Empire pronunciation. It’s just that Afghanistan people aren’t likely met on the internet, hence the Iranians have transcribed as it has been laid into their mouths.

An additional peculiarity is that only Persian transcriptions here use the circumflex diacritic for the long vowel while all other languages use the macron, to titillate Iranians with a keyboard who apparently write circumflexes more easily, as they also write ASCII apostrophes instead of U+02BB MODIFIER LETTER TURNED COMMA and U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE that correctly behave like letters on the computer.

A few times, I have given both transcriptions to reconcile all, like on ترنج, which gave Ottoman Turkish ترنج (turunç) because the Persian was turunj and not “toronj”, hence Classical Persian transcription in its etymology section, and both at the Persian so there is no confusion from that it is turunj above and suddenly toronj. Fay Freak (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I wholly agree with you. The influence that the Persian language has left on the Turkic languages, the languages of Caucasia, and the Indo-Aryan languages was all through Classical / Early Modern Persian; so it is high time we had a Transliteration page dedicated to Classical Persian, following Steingass's standard. —Lbdñk (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@AryamanA, by the way, why has Steingass translitered Persian خبیث as "ḵẖabīs̤" ? Seems as though we are dealing with an aspirated consonant... Should the transliteration not be "xabīs" or "ḵabīs", as the word begins with an unvoiced velar fricative ? Also, what is that doubly underdotted s ? I am bewilder'd ! —Lbdñk (talk) 18:10, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: It is xabīs by our system. Steingass disambiguates the letters specific to Arabic borrowings (in this case, ث) from their Persian phonological equivalents. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 14:30, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Well. Also, how should /t͡ʃ/ be transliterated... by "ch" or "č" ? Whatever, by the way, be the transliteration, the "c" used to transliterate the same sound in South Asian languages, is sadly not used for (Classical) Persian. And as for the vowels and vowel lengths, I think, Steingass can be safely followed, can it be not? Lastly, I have been wondering, what exactly you do mean by "our system"— I guess this must an unofficial, unwritten one. —Lbdñk (talk) 15:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: č. The vowel lengths are reliable. To be honest, I learned "our system" by trial and error (and frequent correction by User:ZxxZxxZ) and I too would prefer it to be documented somewhere. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 15:41, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Why sadly? What’s so good about it? Most likely one would assume a ⟨c⟩ to be a voiceless alveolar affricate, which is standard for Slavic and Chinese – Pinyin and Jyutping for /t͡sʰ/ as opposed to ⟨z⟩ /t͡s – so your “South Asian” picture does not reach that far, and while the Malay alphabet uses ⟨c⟩ for /t͡ʃ/ the Cushitic Latin alphabets have it for the voiced pharyngeal fricative (→ cayn; a better option for Semitic languages instead of the cripple ʿ). Using ⟨c⟩ for /t͡ʃ/ is confusing at the intersections, as for example ⟨c⟩ is used for Middle Persian while ⟨č⟩ for the same sound in New Persian, and this goes on in any list where many unrelated languages are mentioned, one and the same sign varying in meaning, various signs for the same meaning. This can be okay in the actual spellings of Latin scripts of languages themselves but has it to be in transcriptions? As there is an International Phonetic Alphabet one might have an international transcription standard somewhen, as transcriptions miss in effectivity if one has to go to a list to translate them into IPA; cruft carried on from the age of mechanical typesetting.

I do not assume or have hope in universalism of the Latin alphabet however: The Latin alphabet has too many restrictions from its initial shape and historical baggages to create unity in the world, so its usage for depicting all the languages is always problematic in one extent or the other. I can only warn of further spreading the Latin alphabet in the world. Perhaps this is a reason I can use to abstain from further impleting this dictionary: English and its alphabet are a meme. Fay Freak (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

By “our system”, it is xabis, as the classical i is e here, so somehow one decided to avoid marking the length of the i. Fay Freak (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 19:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

आपका नाम क्या है

We've been having lots of problems over the past few years with new mobile users (possibly children) in countries such as India who don't understand that the Wiktionary app on their phone isn't some kind of interface for editing their phone's internal settings or for communicating with the internet. आपका नाम क्या है is a good example of this: people keep interpreting the Hindi text on this page as an invitation to enter their names. We've had 20 IP edits in slightly more than a year consisting of someone from India typing their name into the entry (I've hidden the edits to protect their identities). Can you think of any way to clue these people in without compromising the entry? Two ideas I've been toying with are putting a message inside an HTML comment in the wikitext: <!-- message here -->, or creating an abuse filter that responds to edits of certain entries that meet certain tests coming from certain IP ranges with a warning of some sort in Hindi. The alternative would be restricting the entry to auto-confirmed users only, which would block all edits by IPs.

This sort of thing isn't unique to India- there are lots of similar edits from other countries with non-Latin-script languages such as Pakistan, Thailand and Iraq- but this is a case where we know what language to use. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:58, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Which one?

Hi. Could you tell if Bhojpuri सेव (sēva, “apple”) is inherited from Sanskrit सेवि (sevi) or is a borrowing from Persian سیب? Thanks. —Lbdñk (talk) 18:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Lbdñk: Turners says it is inherited and the v definitely points to that (b > v would be quite uncharacteristic of Bhojpuri). Interestingly, the Sanskrit term appears to be borrowed from Iranian ultimately. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 14:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)