Template talk:cmn-hanzi

Refining of template

I find the template confusing, as it currently stands. The reason: several things are given all in one line, creating confusion, particularly among novice users. First, following the character it states whether the character is simplified or traditional, then the pinyin is given, without even being separated by a semicolon. Then, again without being separated by a semicolon, the alternate form is given. The attempt to fit all of this into one line makes things very confusing. I recommend that the character be given, then the pinyin in parentheses. On a separate line, the form can be given (whether simplified or traditional. Finally, on another line, the alternate form (called "simplified form" or "traditional form" rather than simply "simplified" or "traditional," for maximum clarity) can be given. This could also be prefaced by the text "Alternate form."

If in the end it is decided to keep all of this information on a single line (which I believe to be confusing), semicolons should be used to separate the discrete bits of information. See any Wikipedia entry on a Chinese topic and you will see that the format used as a standard there is much more clear. For example, see the first line of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan -- and see how the discrete bits of information are separated by semicolons in a very clear manner, without italics. Further, the romanization style is separated from the romanization itself by colons. Badagnani 07:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

For a simple gloss, there's nothing wrong with it. Traditional or Simplified is more pertinent information and should go on the same line as the character, if the current format were to be broken up into multiple lines.

(Wikipedia's zh template is (frankly) terrible and should not be an inspiration to anyone: simplified Chinese and pinyin are not separate languages and should not be marked as though they were. There's a little more leeway here since the other languages are split off into their own sections (unlike Wikipedia), but the comma is entirely correct and not "confusing" in the least. If anything, mentioning pinyin makes it confusing: we've finally reached the point where the PRC and ROC both agree that it simply is the romanized form of these words except in historic contexts.)

Where this template does seem to be broken is (1) the current lack of documentation here; (2) displaying the pint= value, which creates clutter and confusion and provides nothing of value: tonal pinyin is correct and atonal pinyin is common, but no one actual writes or displays it the way we do; (3) the difficulty and confusion arising from multiple pronunciations and capitalizations for the same character without any good way to separate or explain them; (4) the apparent inability to use the template when a simplified form comes from multiple traditional characters (there probably is a way, but see 1); (5) the inability to include Middle Chinese pronunciations or Old Chinese reconstructions; (6) the inability of the template to automatically create of the tonal pinyin from the pint= value, the numbered pinyin from the pin= value, or the superscripted Wade from either.

However, most of that's not really a problem with the template: it's just something to consider when revamping the current wiktionary policy on glossing sinitic languages. — LlywelynII 21:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Alternate spelling on separate line

We do have an alternate spelling (probably equivalent to the alternate form for simplified vs. traditional characters) on a separate line in the colour article. I suggest we do that in this template, listing, for characters that do have an alternate, on a separate bulleted line in the same way that the British vs. American spelling for the same word is in the colour article. Badagnani 07:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggested changes

@Wyang

First, I think this template can be moved to {{zh-hanzi}} and calls updated to use the new name. IMO, it needs to have mandatory sim= and tra= params and add display of Zhuyin, remove numeric pinyin in brackets, e.g. |pin=niè (nie4), yǐ (yi3) -> |pin=niè, yǐ.

Any Han character entry with no PoS sections (noun, verb, etc.) in Category:Mandarin definitions needed could import definitions from Translingual "Han character" sections.

Hanzi, Han character on Mandarin section all make "Hanzi" sections. What do you think? Can this be done with a bot? I know you're busy. It's going to be hard work for single-character entries but it's probably the first step. Make current Mandarin section better, then Cantonese, Hakka, Min Nan, etc. can be imported.

BTW, I have made all remaining PoS templates - so you can move Mandarin to Chinese by bot. Also, could you remind me the link to listen to Wu pronunciations? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

{{zh-hanzi}} actually exists but they should all be {{zh-hanzi-box}}. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all of the above... I am working on making {{zh-pron}} fully accept {{Pinyin-IPA}}, but I encountered a problem here. Once that is solved, I will probably start from multisyllabic ones first. The first is to manually convert everything in Category:Cantonese parts of speech, Category:Min Nan parts of speech etc. to the new format (please assist if you can), and then do everything in Category:Mandarin parts of speech with a bot. Then I will do the Hanzi ones. There are many pronunciations on Forvo, which is mainly where I got the pronunciation files from. Wyang (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm a bit confused about which template to use for pronunciation, though. You use one for Mandarin only and another for all varieties. {{Pinyin-IPA}} and {{zh-pron}}.

The Chinese PoS templates need some attention - they need to add to PoS categories, see Template_talk:zh-noun. I see you adding to categories using {{zh-pron}}, even if a pronunciation for a topolect is missing. Also, I'd add sorting, even if Mandarin pronunciation is used. Perhaps, "pint=" parameter should be reintroduced. It's going to be messy when you have over 20,000 nouns, which are sorted by Hanzi. User may want to find 电脑 under letter "D", not character "电". See the current sorting in Category:Mandarin nouns--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. Entries in Category:Mandarin nouns and Category:Chinese nouns using the zh-pron template are correctly sorted, no? Wyang (talk) 02:35, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you're using the pronunciation template and modules to sort. Can the PoS templates be made to sort Chinese PoS by "pint=" even if pronunciation sections are missing? Meaning the |pint= should be in the header, even if it's hidden from users? E.g. {{zh-noun|pint=xue2xi2}}. That way the header template will always add to PoS categories as PoS templates should, pronunciation doesn't have to exist or can use other templates.

I think, {{zh-hanzi-box}} should categorise by Category:Chinese terms in simplified script /Category:Chinese terms in traditional script without the PoS split as before? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:50, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

In order to convert Cantonese, Min Nan entries, we need to sort out, which pronunciation templates to use - {{Pinyin-IPA}} or {{zh-pron}}. See Template_talk:zh-pron#Pinyin-IPA_to_zh-pron. They behave differently. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Does definition can be put under the Hanzi section?

Does definitions can be put under the Hanzi section?

I think of this section as the place where to put the meaning of a character when this meaning is only express throught compounds and not by using the character alone.

for example the character 要. in fourth tone it can be used independently and mean "to want". With the first tone, it mean "to force" or "to ask" but it can't be used alone in a sentence. it need to be used in a compound.

Is my interpretation of the Hanzi section correct? Does this section is the right place to put meaning hold by a character which can't be used independently? Or do they need to be put under a part of speech section? What is the best way to indicate that a character is only used in compounds? Meihouwang (talk) 22:12, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

RFD discussion: June–November 2020

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Template:cmn-hanzi

Template:yue-hanzi

Unified Chinese should be used instead. --沈澄心✉ 07:25, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The process of fixing character enctries is moving at a very slow pace. Keep for now, because I oppose the idea of naively fixing entries to use the Chinese header using a bot and without human attention. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Is it appropriate to use {{deprecated}} (like Template:vi-hantu)? --沈澄心✉ 14:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

• Marked as deprecated. They can be deleted once the process is complete. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)